I agree >_<

it's really not that big of a deal

Yep, makes me mad. sometimes i wonder what is going through their heads when they came up with these ideas.

I feel for people when they see their character do something that they do not think is true but sometimes I think people overreact. Personally I never liked the idea that the JSA was now older than the Trinity and would prefer if through some means Superman was the source of inspiration for the heroes and the truth is that Wonder Woman was made to be a Superman for girls and it is not out of the realm of possibility in universe other heroes are inspired by him.

" it's really not that big of a deal "

" I feel for people when they see their character do something that they do not think is true but sometimes I think people overreact. Personally I never liked the idea that the JSA was now older than the Trinity and would prefer is through some means Superman was the source of inspiration for the heroes and the truth is that Wonder Woman was made to be a Superman for girls and it is not out of the realm of possibility in universe other heroes are inspired by him. "

" @danhimself said:

" it's really not that big of a deal "

agreed. I already explained why this is a good thing for Wonder Woman in the other thread about this. "

Every single appearance of Emma Frost written by Matt Fraction makes me shake my head. 

None of the moments mentioned really bother me all that much, but I entirely understand how there are moments which make one cringe.

It's hard to say exactly what makes me the most upset at comics, since I haven't been an avid reader since the early 90's in my teens.  But I think just about any time a character is brought back from the dead, it seriously irritates me.  It's a cheap device used by writers mostly to get a short term boost in sales.  Very rarely is it done with any amount of true foresight or real intelligence (off the top of my head, only the Winter Soldier/Bucky comes to mind).  As a reader, it's also almost insulting.  New characters should be brought in to take the place of the old, to gently usher in new readers as well as provide some sort of closure for long term readers.  Death, even in comic books, should be permanent most of the time. 

Also as cheesy as the lines are that Powergirl scene had the context of Infinite Crisis coming she did not know who she was or were she came from she felt loss and the line reflects that.

" Also as cheesy as the lines are that Powergirl scene had the context of Infinite Crisis coming she did not know who she was or were she came from she felt loss and the line reflects that. "

I totally agree with u on WW. And i get the feeling that in little time we will get a retcon so that all this new WW is forgoten.

But on Power Girl, she was really lost, how many times has her origin been changed?
She really didn´t know who she was for sure until the IC, so it made sense what she pointed out about the hole on her costume.

They should just say that Power Girl has a giant hole is because of boob sweat. It's easier to cool them down with the hole.
 
Superman #708 was just weird period. I read it and I wasn't sure what the point of the issue was. The whole conversation with Wonder Woman and Superman felt off.
 
PS The more I see of WW's costume, the more I want her to keep it instead of her old one.

I've gotta agree with this. When reading DC Superman is apparently the envy of all other superheroes (and some villains) in the DCU. Most characters seem to find validation and awe in simply watching him do his thing or by being in his presence. Loeb is especially known for having characters that have owned supes (such as Cap Atom) thinking to themselves or saying "I'm  nothing compared to supes"  The Superman touting is something the company does to the extreme likely because of his status as the flagship char of the company. As these two instances show it can be a detriment to the story of other characters. 

When it was revealed Gwen Stacey had an affair with Norman Osborn. Then secretly have children which she kept from Peter. I think it really damaged her character and I never felt the same way for Spidey comics again. 
 
It not only had me shaking my head, but have me quit comics for a few years.

" I've gotta agree with this. When reading DC Superman is apparently the envy of all other superheroes (and some villains) in the DCU. Most characters seem to find validation and awe in simply watching him do his thing or by being in his presence. Loeb is especially known for having characters that have owned supes (such as Cap Atom) thinking to themselves or saying "I'm  nothing compared to supes"  The Superman touting is something the company does to the extreme likely because of his status as the flagship char of the company. As these two instances show it can be a detriment to the story of other characters.  "

Like said..I don't see the big deal behind wonderwoman.  Seems bitching for the sake of bitching.
 
But seriously, edit your title..it's misleading.  You start off like this is a post to talk about stupid moments in comics only to turn it into (yet again) a complaint about Wonder Woman and women role-models in general in comics
 
This isn't about "moments that make you shake your head" it's just another "comics are sexist and Wonder Woman sucks now" thread.

MANY heroes say they were inspired by Superman and/or he's the one that holds everything together.
 
ever read Kingdom Come?  Superman takes off and the world goes to hell with a bunch of wolverine/batman vigilante wannabe's that have no problem killing..only by Superman returning were things set right
 
We get it.  You're not happy with the direction Wonder Woman has taken.  You make it clear as much as you can.  And this post is just a veiled stab at it again.  We get it.  
 
Though I will give you one thing..the Power Girl thing was stupid.
 
Honestly though, and you can dismiss this as a bad excuse (but it doesn't change facts), if you want a truly inspirational female role-model....don't look at a medium dominated by males for that role-model.  It's not going to happen.
 
not to mention this politically correct bullshit is tiring...someone ALWAYS has to pick apart ANYTHING they can find to find something racist, sexist, or whatever else and complain about it.

" I feel for people when they see their character do something that they do not think is true but sometimes I think people overreact. Personally I never liked the idea that the JSA was now older than the Trinity and would prefer if through some means Superman was the source of inspiration for the heroes and the truth is that Wonder Woman was made to be a Superman for girls and it is not out of the realm of possibility in universe other heroes are inspired by him. "

3 words: ONE MORE DAY!

Truthfully that whole issue made Superman interesting to me. To think that something could actually break his ideals and what he believes, even momentarily...I actually haven't minded MOST of JMS's Grounded arc. It's not all that exciting, but it's interesting. 
 
The whole Wonder Woman thing is confusing, though I agree that the validation thing is wrong. Not just for Wonder Woman but for EVERY character that was introduced as an independent character and then have their origin CHANGED to be inspired or include a popular hero.  
 
It happened to the Creeper in his most recent mini-series where Batman was involved and his origin was changed to involve Joker venom. It happened to Captain Marvel to involve Superman. It cheapens the character and almost makes them a sub-character in the larger more popular character's universe.

" @johnny spam said:

" I feel for people when they see their character do something that they do not think is true but sometimes I think people overreact. Personally I never liked the idea that the JSA was now older than the Trinity and would prefer if through some means Superman was the source of inspiration for the heroes and the truth is that Wonder Woman was made to be a Superman for girls and it is not out of the realm of possibility in universe other heroes are inspired by him. "

 Then you may run the risk of underestimating objective reasoning and measuring of how characters trade off each other. Putting favorites aside, its not that big a deal if we have three characters who look up to Superman and cite him as an inspiration. Pretty cool actually. Change that number from 3 to 2? Or 3 to 4? Not that huge a difference. Introduce another variable, say a character that many people specifically care, appreciate and like because that character is different... from the three characters we have identified find Superman inspiring and the source for motivation? So its a trait our new character has, that distinguishes them. Now... try changing that character so that she conforms? Like I said before, if we change the number of characters from 3 to 2, or 3 to 4, in this case it would be 4, since we are adding a character, the effect on Superman is minimal creative wise, but for a character who formerly stood out and was appreciated for standing out in whatever context, well, take a character you like, and the reason you like them? Then change it? Not necessarily going to be the case in all examples. Naturally more complicated than that, but just reaction and overreaction? How does one tell?  "

" Like said..I don't see the big deal behind wonderwoman.  Seems bitching for the sake of bitching.  But seriously, edit your title..it's misleading.  You start off like this is a post to talk about stupid moments in comics only to turn it into (yet again) a complaint about Wonder Woman and women role-models in general in comics  This isn't about "moments that make you shake your head" it's just another "comics are sexist and Wonder Woman sucks now" thread. MANY heroes say they were inspired by Superman and/or he's the one that holds everything together.  ever read Kingdom Come?  Superman takes off and the world goes to hell with a bunch of wolverine/batman vigilante wannabe's that have no problem killing..only by Superman returning were things set right  We get it.  You're not happy with the direction Wonder Woman has taken.  You make it clear as much as you can.  And this post is just a veiled stab at it again.  We get it.    Though I will give you one thing..the Power Girl thing was stupid.  Honestly though, and you can dismiss this as a bad excuse (but it doesn't change facts), if you want a truly inspirational female role-model....don't look at a medium dominated by males for that role-model.  It's not going to happen.  not to mention this politically correct bullshit is tiring...someone ALWAYS has to pick apart ANYTHING they can find to find something racist, sexist, or whatever else and complain about it. "

" @SC:@SC said:

" @johnny spam said:

" I feel for people when they see their character do something that they do not think is true but sometimes I think people overreact. Personally I never liked the idea that the JSA was now older than the Trinity and would prefer if through some means Superman was the source of inspiration for the heroes and the truth is that Wonder Woman was made to be a Superman for girls and it is not out of the realm of possibility in universe other heroes are inspired by him. "

 Then you may run the risk of underestimating objective reasoning and measuring of how characters trade off each other. Putting favorites aside, its not that big a deal if we have three characters who look up to Superman and cite him as an inspiration. Pretty cool actually. Change that number from 3 to 2? Or 3 to 4? Not that huge a difference. Introduce another variable, say a character that many people specifically care, appreciate and like because that character is different... from the three characters we have identified find Superman inspiring and the source for motivation? So its a trait our new character has, that distinguishes them. Now... try changing that character so that she conforms? Like I said before, if we change the number of characters from 3 to 2, or 3 to 4, in this case it would be 4, since we are adding a character, the effect on Superman is minimal creative wise, but for a character who formerly stood out and was appreciated for standing out in whatever context, well, take a character you like, and the reason you like them? Then change it? Not necessarily going to be the case in all examples. Naturally more complicated than that, but just reaction and overreaction? How does one tell?  "

Though many superheroes after wards probably were not inspired by Superman but that is where it came from changing the source of inspiration in a soft reboot that may not last does not get rid of the stories the character had the feelings people and fans feel for her or what she is suppose to mean. Logically I think Superman should be the source of inspiration based on where he came from and how that many DC characters including Wonder Woman  considered him in their creation. "

Personally, I thought PG's reasoning for not having a symbol was reasonable. It's the origin story that she was apparently from the ancient city of Atlantis and her powers are magic based that made me think WTH was they thinking when writing that.
 
I have a couple of others like OMD, and what happened to Cassandra Cain during that One Year Later storyline.

" I cant say that I have that many cringe moments in comic books.  Maybe its because I have so much silver age and golden age, the plot devices and chracter development back then were pretty lame, so at least we can be thankful that modern writers don't still write like that.    One of my most cringing moments though was a few years back when they had the JL? series, where the heroes forget what the A stands for and each original members recreates a team starting with A.  The whole series was so purely written it just made me wish that someone had never greenlighted the miniseries.  I guess another one which bothers me is whenever any writer tries to sound cool, but obviously came up with any terms at the last moment.  I remember when D Greyson took over Nightwing for a bit, she had Dick get injured and taken in by a family to nurse him back to health.  The young daughter gets a crush on him and starts calling him "Crutches" in what must be the worst nickname of all time.    As for Wonder Woman being inspired by Superman, wouldn't it have been so much better if she had witnessed a non powered human ion action as opposed to a superpowered alien.  How about like female firefighter.  The reason that Diana's supporting cast is so weak is because they always do this to her.  "

Happens to me too to shake my head from times to times in comic books. But what's even worse is the number of times I do it watching some comic book movies...

" @norusdog said:

" Like said..I don't see the big deal behind wonderwoman.  Seems bitching for the sake of bitching.  But seriously, edit your title..it's misleading.  You start off like this is a post to talk about stupid moments in comics only to turn it into (yet again) a complaint about Wonder Woman and women role-models in general in comics  This isn't about "moments that make you shake your head" it's just another "comics are sexist and Wonder Woman sucks now" thread. MANY heroes say they were inspired by Superman and/or he's the one that holds everything together.  ever read Kingdom Come?  Superman takes off and the world goes to hell with a bunch of wolverine/batman vigilante wannabe's that have no problem killing..only by Superman returning were things set right  We get it.  You're not happy with the direction Wonder Woman has taken.  You make it clear as much as you can.  And this post is just a veiled stab at it again.  We get it.    Though I will give you one thing..the Power Girl thing was stupid.  Honestly though, and you can dismiss this as a bad excuse (but it doesn't change facts), if you want a truly inspirational female role-model....don't look at a medium dominated by males for that role-model.  It's not going to happen.  not to mention this politically correct bullshit is tiring...someone ALWAYS has to pick apart ANYTHING they can find to find something racist, sexist, or whatever else and complain about it. "

 In effect you post does not really do the exact same thing no? Its easy to throw the word PC around like its a bad thing, but say I accuse your post of actually being more PC?   You don't see the big deal, or you disagree that it should be a big deal? Difference. Don't always have to agree with what you see or understand.  You almost seem to miss the point I personally feel, its not about generalizations, its about specifics, Superman fans, never complain about his writing? There are no valid criticisms about any of their concerns ever, because it could be justified? Deciding what constitutes a truly inspirational female role-model also relative you must understand? For many there are such characters in bulk already. As in it has happened.   You prove your own point, but seem okay stating it despite it supposedly being tiring? (someone always has to pick apart anything, after you just pick apart a thread to... well I won't assume, but its to complain right?)   Come on man, we are all people here, (I hope, one poster before sounded like a Spambot...) forget if its tired or PC, lets have a fun friendly discussion. Namely Generalization vs Specifics? May I politely inquire to your favorite characters? ^_^ "

I want your MONEY! Your CONTINUITY!

I just commented on this lulzy Superman#708 in the Wonder Woman page. Yeah, because Superman inspires everyone with his radiance, incorruptible sense of justice, and yawn. And the kingdom come angle? Lulz. That's because Magog couldn't cling to his own indiscriminate sense of pragmatism. The same with the lot of the so called "hardcore" generation. When a hero can't accept responibilities for protecting a villain or killing that villain, they're no longer capable of wearing a cape and cowl. 
 
Not everyone should be held to the standards of Superman. The day when a vigilante says "Most people believe in your principles. I disagree, I'll never regret my path" or something along those lines, you know characters will step up of the shadow of the man of steel.

When something bad is about to happen to a character I like

I think that panel in Power Girl was written incorrectly. It's supposed to explain that since she was supposed to be related to Superman, she is supposed to have a shield on her chest just like him and Supergirl. But she didn't feel as though she lived up to the name and therefore is named Power Girl instead of Supergirl and has no symbol. Not because she simply couldn't think of one. 
 
And as for Wonder Woman, I blame JMS.

I really think that Superman was used because he's the superhero. He's the prototype. It's natural that he's used as a role model, and the fact that he is affects him as well. 
 
I'm not sure I agree with you saying that it's an empowerment-related thing that Wondy and Peeg compare themselves to Superman; he just happens to be a close associate of both of them. I mean, there's a reason Supes/Bats/Wondy were in Trinity together. 
 
I mean, who else would Wonder Woman talk to? The ones you listed (PG, Oracle, and Donna) haven't had that much interaction with her lately; even Donna, who is closely intertwined with Diana's canon, has been off adventuring with the Titans and the new Justice League. There hasn't been that development there, or the interaction that would imply Donna having that moral impact on her life. Even when Donna was Wonder Woman, she told Diana that she didn't feel right in the role. There just wasn't that switch of respect.  
 
I see where you're coming from, but I just don't agree with it.

I hate when they push " Do over" button and  what happend before really did not matter at all , that makes shake my head  big time

" @SC said:

" @norusdog said:

" Like said..I don't see the big deal behind wonderwoman.  Seems bitching for the sake of bitching.  But seriously, edit your title..it's misleading.  You start off like this is a post to talk about stupid moments in comics only to turn it into (yet again) a complaint about Wonder Woman and women role-models in general in comics  This isn't about "moments that make you shake your head" it's just another "comics are sexist and Wonder Woman sucks now" thread. MANY heroes say they were inspired by Superman and/or he's the one that holds everything together.  ever read Kingdom Come?  Superman takes off and the world goes to hell with a bunch of wolverine/batman vigilante wannabe's that have no problem killing..only by Superman returning were things set right  We get it.  You're not happy with the direction Wonder Woman has taken.  You make it clear as much as you can.  And this post is just a veiled stab at it again.  We get it.    Though I will give you one thing..the Power Girl thing was stupid.  Honestly though, and you can dismiss this as a bad excuse (but it doesn't change facts), if you want a truly inspirational female role-model....don't look at a medium dominated by males for that role-model.  It's not going to happen.  not to mention this politically correct bullshit is tiring...someone ALWAYS has to pick apart ANYTHING they can find to find something racist, sexist, or whatever else and complain about it. "

 In effect you post does not really do the exact same thing no? Its easy to throw the word PC around like its a bad thing, but say I accuse your post of actually being more PC?   You don't see the big deal, or you disagree that it should be a big deal? Difference. Don't always have to agree with what you see or understand.  You almost seem to miss the point I personally feel, its not about generalizations, its about specifics, Superman fans, never complain about his writing? There are no valid criticisms about any of their concerns ever, because it could be justified? Deciding what constitutes a truly inspirational female role-model also relative you must understand? For many there are such characters in bulk already. As in it has happened.   You prove your own point, but seem okay stating it despite it supposedly being tiring? (someone always has to pick apart anything, after you just pick apart a thread to... well I won't assume, but its to complain right?)   Come on man, we are all people here, (I hope, one poster before sounded like a Spambot...) forget if its tired or PC, lets have a fun friendly discussion. Namely Generalization vs Specifics? May I politely inquire to your favorite characters? ^_^ "

I'm not even going to bother trying to argue the difference between my pointing out how tiring it is there's always someone that has to point out how un-PC something is and complaining about people complaining.  As it's irrelevant to this topic.  And I'm not wasting my time if that's how you broke down my post. However, having a discussion is EXACTLY why I came in here.  The title peaked my interest and I came here expecting a good discussion of such things.  Only to find it's not really about the title of the thread..but another complaint about Wonder Woman and how women are under-represented in comics.  The title doesn't match the content (past the first few sentences.)  It's nothing personal.  I'm speaking my mind.  Even if we were friends IRL I wouldn't not say what I feel.  Again nothing personal but it doesn't change facts.  This is a veiled post about women in comics, not bad writing or bad moments in comics in general.  Just pointing out, yet again, how Wonder Woman's new direction sucks and how Women aren't given there "just-do" in comics.  But whatever...I'm not explaining my post if someone can't understand that.  And @ whoever told me not to be mean to her...what the hell are you talking about? being mean? because I pointed out some flaw in the post or pointed out that what was typed doesn't really have anything to do with the thread title?  How is that being mean to her?  lol.... Or am I only to say nice things and tell her how great she is BECAUSE she's a woman?  is that how I am being mean? because I didn't agree or like something a "girl" wrote on the internets?  I see posts like that all the time on here..Babs can do no wrong because she has bewbs and the comic crowd finds her hawt? wow...just wow.  sorry babs..my bad.  yer cute.  so anything you say is golden...apparently. "

" @SC: I'd be fine if in canon Superman based his persona on some of the things that inspired him. Changing a character slightly or just tweaking them is good some bad things may happen but it is healthy and good for them. It's not like this one moment of this issue will change Wonder Woman fundamentally from here on. "

Well, Diana and PG have had recent interaction with each other's fists and feet; plus PG seems likely to go looking for Diana very soon now in connection with the Generation Lost/Power Girl story.
 
But as to Power Girl herself, Johns had done a lot of good stuff, but he can't write Power Girl.  Likely comes from not really liking her all that much.  Regardless of the reason, he never really understood the character.  Historically, Power Girl would never have sat there literally crying to Superman about that.  She would have simply gone out and tried to punch her way through her worries.  She was never introspective or whiny like that.  With PG, what you saw was what you got, brash, bold, confident to the point of being arrogant.  She's always thought too much of herself to do that.  But then that was typical of her treatment during the Johns run in JSA, regardless of all the other good things he did there.  Winick, Simone, or Trautmann have all gotten her personality down better. 

so image comics and marvel comics are out of the spotlight for sara's shake your head spotlight...   
 
haha DC we are dissapoint! 

This is completely true, the only thing that ruins a good comic book over something stupid like a girl adding suggestive themes to her costume

Haha I just posted the other day a fairly similar blog. Great minds I guess.  As a fan of Power Girl the hole thing was really dumb I agree.
 
But the Wonder Woman thing, it would be kind of nice once Wonder Woman restores herself she returns to Superman to reinforce his beliefs you know coming full circle, he inspired her and she reaffirms his faith.

Good Articale but I kinda like WW new costume, she looks new and I think some characters have to reinvent themselves (at least for a while costume wise). I hope they change batman/supermans suit for a while so we can see somthing new.  
Superman should use this look for a while (yes I know thats superboys old costume but it looks cool and new) Give WW new look a chance, somtimes change is good!...somtimes