Bill Messner-Loebs...Do people not like his run?

#1 Posted by jointron33 (1902 posts) - - Show Bio

I've noticed that fans usually mention Perez, JImenez, or Simone when they talk about their favorite WW runs. If they're drunk, they'll mention John Byrne. But do people not like Messner-Loebs' run? I know Deodato's art was cheesecakey, but the story was good. Heck, the art itself was actually good, despite being 90s. Heck, the whole deal with Artemis was such a well-done "90s replacement" story that it, like Knightfall, almost came off as a satire on the idiotic EXTREME heroes of the 90s. This is intensified in that Artemis is basically supposed to be Zealot, the lame WW ripoff from Wildcats.

#2 Posted by hyperman (288 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, I actually like Deosdato's art, indeed i do. I think that was the one of the best arts has seen, I also like the deal with Artemis, it 's pretty good. But the rest with Donna milton, Ares Buchanan and so forth, well ... mmm is kinds crap. The art in some issues was awful. I remember when Donna Milton gave birth to Lita underwater after being shot... that baby looked creepy XD

#3 Edited by JSAVen (100 posts) - - Show Bio

another Messner-Loebs interesting arc, is when Wondy goes to the space, with a Russian Cosmonaut.

Deosdato's art was amazing. WW vs Joker is epic and funny as hell-

and how forgett The Chauvinist hahaha

my interest in those comics, is because the JLA pre-Morrison, when Wondy did lose her status like Wonder Woman.

#4 Posted by herrweis (431 posts) - - Show Bio

well Artemis has become a great supporting character.and his run gave us her.

#5 Posted by jointron33 (1902 posts) - - Show Bio

so it was.......ok?

#6 Posted by Erik (32047 posts) - - Show Bio

@jointron33 said:

I've noticed that fans usually mention Perez, JImenez, or Simone when they talk about their favorite WW runs. If they're drunk, they'll mention John Byrne. But do people not like Messner-Loebs' run? I know Deodato's art was cheesecakey, but the story was good. Heck, the art itself was actually good, despite being 90s. Heck, the whole deal with Artemis was such a well-done "90s replacement" story that it, like Knightfall, almost came off as a satire on the idiotic EXTREME heroes of the 90s. This is intensified in that Artemis is basically supposed to be Zealot, the lame WW ripoff from Wildcats.

I disagree with literally everything in this post. The introduction of Artemis was appreciated but future writers handled her better and had a fuller understanding of her than her own creator. Messner-Loebs did not write a single decent issue during his time on WW. This is clear in the issues where opinion is not blinded by Deodato's fanservice.

#7 Posted by kapitein_zeppos (341 posts) - - Show Bio

There were some good writing bits (WW vs the Joker was a highpoint), but I can barely look at the artwork these days. Too much visual clutter, the guys (characters like the Chauvinist aside) are way too hypermuscular and the women are too hypermodel. Thank Crom that phase has mostly passed.

#8 Posted by RazzaTazz (9568 posts) - - Show Bio
@Erik said:

@jointron33 said:

I've noticed that fans usually mention Perez, JImenez, or Simone when they talk about their favorite WW runs. If they're drunk, they'll mention John Byrne. But do people not like Messner-Loebs' run? I know Deodato's art was cheesecakey, but the story was good. Heck, the art itself was actually good, despite being 90s. Heck, the whole deal with Artemis was such a well-done "90s replacement" story that it, like Knightfall, almost came off as a satire on the idiotic EXTREME heroes of the 90s. This is intensified in that Artemis is basically supposed to be Zealot, the lame WW ripoff from Wildcats.

I disagree with literally everything in this post. The introduction of Artemis was appreciated but future writers handled her better and had a fuller understanding of her than her own creator. Messner-Loebs did not write a single decent issue during his time on WW. This is clear in the issues where opinion is not blinded by Deodato's fanservice.

My dear friend, I have missed disagreeing with you in this forum.  I think the underlying point of ML's run was not that any one issue was great but rather that the combination of them as a whole as it related to the character development of various characters (chiefly Diana) was really strong.  Picking up any one issue would cause some confusion (like why was Diana working at the Taco Whiz) but when looked at for the greater whole this kind of character development really drove home the story, and gave the last ten issues of his run a lot more weight.  
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#9 Posted by Erik (32047 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz said:

My dear friend, I have missed disagreeing with you in this forum. I think the underlying point of ML's run was not that any one issue was great but rather that the combination of them as a whole as it related to the character development of various characters (chiefly Diana) was really strong. Picking up any one issue would cause some confusion (like why was Diana working at the Taco Whiz) but when looked at for the greater whole this kind of character development really drove home the story, and gave the last ten issues of his run a lot more weight.

Aside from the fact that I disagree the greater whole of his work on the volume can be considered good, to say that in order to appreciate it, you have to read all 36 issues is just a silly notion. And there was not much character development to speak of either, unless the character derailment is the character development you speak of, in which case I guess I would agree, as terrible and offensive as it was.

#10 Posted by RazzaTazz (9568 posts) - - Show Bio
@Erik said:

@RazzaTazz said:

My dear friend, I have missed disagreeing with you in this forum. I think the underlying point of ML's run was not that any one issue was great but rather that the combination of them as a whole as it related to the character development of various characters (chiefly Diana) was really strong. Picking up any one issue would cause some confusion (like why was Diana working at the Taco Whiz) but when looked at for the greater whole this kind of character development really drove home the story, and gave the last ten issues of his run a lot more weight.

Aside from the fact that I disagree the greater whole of his work on the volume can be considered good, to say that in order to appreciate it, you have to read all 36 issues is just a silly notion. And there was not much character development to speak of either, unless the character derailment is the character development you speak of, in which case I guess I would agree, as terrible and offensive as it was.

I told you we would disagree, I guess when it comes to WW we don't see eye to eye, but I do respect your knowledge on the character  :)
Moderator
#11 Posted by Erik (32047 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz said:

I told you we would disagree, I guess when it comes to WW we don't see eye to eye, but I do respect your knowledge on the character :)

Well at least you love the character and that counts for something. Far too few WW fans.

#12 Posted by RazzaTazz (9568 posts) - - Show Bio
@Erik said:

@RazzaTazz said:

I told you we would disagree, I guess when it comes to WW we don't see eye to eye, but I do respect your knowledge on the character :)

Well at least you love the character and that counts for something. Far too few WW fans.

There is something to be said for that, it is art (writing and visual art) and fans will always disagree on that
Moderator
#13 Posted by Erik (32047 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz said:

@Erik said:

@RazzaTazz said:

I told you we would disagree, I guess when it comes to WW we don't see eye to eye, but I do respect your knowledge on the character :)

Well at least you love the character and that counts for something. Far too few WW fans.

There is something to be said for that, it is art (writing and visual art) and fans will always disagree on that

On that, we do agree.

#14 Posted by CarolStrick (8 posts) - - Show Bio

I've been trying hard to finish a section of WML synopses: http://www.carolastrickland.com/comics/wwcentral/post-C_index/synopind.html . By reading these, you'll find that I found his era terrific and reflective of the true core of WW... with some exceptions. It needed good artists, consistent art, and proper editing, but is a great re-read. (Except for the T&A/rewriting the Amazons' origins part.) We got some really great villains: White Magician, Mayfly. Circe got about three thousand more layers of characterization. Diana got a chance to joke and have fun.

#15 Posted by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (727 posts) - - Show Bio

I loved it. WML's WW was great. His run started off good and got better as it progressed. He really hit his stride with the introduction of Artemis and Mike Deodato's art made the book sell like crazy.

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