Be careful what you wish for: David Finch taking over WW

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#101 Posted by Outside_85 (8777 posts) - - Show Bio

@bezza: The problem here is that the misgivings aren't pulled out of thin air. Affleck has been in a number of fairly horrible movies, like Daredevil and Gigli, and has only just begun to really redeem himself through his work as a director. Add to this, despite how good they sell, he's been teamed up with Goyer, who's still getting flack for how he writes superhero movies. David Finch on the other hand, is a polarizing artist at best, some love his style, others hate it. And the majority seems to agree that his writing is at best; sub-par. So what are the odds that this particular creator will strike gold with a character who's fanbase is notoriously hard to please?

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#102 Posted by Bezza (3544 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85:

No I entirely see your point, there is no smoke without fire, its just that I do find some reactions on here a little extreme, given that we haven't yet read a Finch Wonder Woman comic! I do however totally understand why people who don't like Finch are worried that the book will go down hill.

#103 Edited by MPfly88 (153 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizoom:

So what? There are plenty of instances where guys like Superman and Batman are drawn very poorly. Join the club. Only reason WW fans constantly obsess over her looks and costume is because "muh privilege".

#104 Edited by ArchiZoom (1124 posts) - - Show Bio

@mpfly88 said:

@archizoom:

So what? There are plenty of instances where guys like Superman and Batman are drawn very poorly. Join the club. Only reason WW fans constantly obsess over her looks and costume is because "muh privilege".

No, you can say we're remarkably difficult to please but that isn't the truth. The truth is DC's not even trying. Since the reboot and before also, they've fed us a ton of shit hence the complaints. As a result, Wonder Woman doesn't sell comic books given that customers don't normally purchase products they do not desire. They impute the blame to the character's 'flawed design', they say 'she's a paradox'. She's not a paradox as peace needs to be fought for but she's a dumb-looking floozy who plays second fiddle to Superman in 60 to 70% of her appearances and this is entirely the creative personnel's fault.

#105 Posted by Lvenger (19428 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis: Maybe if Scarecrow shows up in this rumoured Wonder Woman title, all will be well. Otherwise,Wonder Woman is going to drop off the good comic book map IMO which is a real shame for the title.

#106 Posted by cloudzackvincent (1028 posts) - - Show Bio

i think i'll give the first couple of books a try... but the art .. really... uggh

#107 Posted by tigerkaya (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

Well way I see it seeing as how the true fans like us have to suffer than its even better when the New52 fans are suffering as well. So I call that a win-win.

#108 Posted by divingfalcon713 (282 posts) - - Show Bio

@tigerkaya said:

Well way I see it seeing as how the true fans like us have to suffer than its even better when the New52 fans are suffering as well. So I call that a win-win.

What does this even mean? What qualifications does someone need to fill to be considered a real fan?

#109 Posted by Outside_85 (8777 posts) - - Show Bio

Well way I see it seeing as how the true fans like us have to suffer than its even better when the New52 fans are suffering as well. So I call that a win-win.

Could we call it a winwin-win in the 'not true fans' favor when we know you so-called 'true fans' will be even more miserable than you already are if this comes to pass?

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#110 Posted by MaccyD (4007 posts) - - Show Bio
#111 Edited by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (727 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85 said:

@tigerkaya said:

Well way I see it seeing as how the true fans like us have to suffer than its even better when the New52 fans are suffering as well. So I call that a win-win.

Could we call it a winwin-win in the 'not true fans' favor when we know you so-called 'true fans' will be even more miserable than you already are if this comes to pass?

I'm not miserable worth a damn. If I can sit through Azzarello and all the other botched WW runs, I can sit through anything. Bring it on DC.

#112 Posted by tigerkaya (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

@tigerkaya said:

Well way I see it seeing as how the true fans like us have to suffer than its even better when the New52 fans are suffering as well. So I call that a win-win.

What does this even mean? What qualifications does someone need to fill to be considered a real fan?

Simple say Batman in the New52 was written more like his Golden Age version but more guns than a 90's super hero. His parents died of drug addiction and Alfred was teen. How do you think Batfans would feel seeing their favorite iconic hero twisted to that degree with no trace of the original personality or valor. Freakin pissed. I admit its a bit overmuch but I just wanted the pint across. So thats how the pure Wonder Woman fans feel of this change of personality, mythos, and love life have made her an utter joke in the New 52. So I say this with glee Revenge is a dish served cold. So enjoy the new run, I can assure you it will be one horrid run that will make you wish it was canceled.

#113 Posted by divingfalcon713 (282 posts) - - Show Bio

@tigerkaya: So it comes down to opinion. Okay then.

#114 Edited by CrazyScarecrow (1265 posts) - - Show Bio

@darknightspideyfanboy: Jason Fabok is a lot better than David Finch.

I'll give it a try. David Finch's art is OK. I like his Batman work as far as the art goes and I enjoyed Justice League of America. Forever Evil's art is a bit odd, mainly when he is drawing Lex Luthor. Lex has a baby face when Finch draws him. His Wonder Woman drawing he released looks alright. Anyway I heard his wife is writing the series.

#115 Posted by SayaOtonashi (198 posts) - - Show Bio

I dislike Azz run but I can find something to find likable . I do like Hera. However I dislike many of the gods designs. Poseidon and Hades are the two that I dislike the most. The amazon origins I hate. The pacing is terrible . What I mean is many if the issues should have been compressed.

#116 Edited by SayaOtonashi (198 posts) - - Show Bio

However if Diana ever gets cancelled it will break a contracted still binding to Martson's family. Dc can't stop printing her or else. The rights will go back to the family and than how would u feel? No big three.

#117 Posted by Lvenger (19428 posts) - - Show Bio

Ugh it's always the vocal minority that ruin the fun for the silent majority on the quality of Azz's Wonder Woman run. Outside of Perez and Rucka, there hasn't been a better Wonder Woman run at all. Simone's has too many flaws even with the good stories like The Circle to be called anything other than consistently good as opposed to Azz's consistently brilliant run.

#118 Posted by Bruxae (13696 posts) - - Show Bio

Just because I wanted someone better then Azz on WW it doesnt mean id take any crap over him.

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#119 Posted by Bezza (3544 posts) - - Show Bio

..strong opinions on here, some say you are a minority if you don't like Azz's run others say the real WW fans didn't like it!!

I think Azz's comic is interesting, well drawn and different but one thing still gets me, if its that good, why are the sales so poor? Is there a large swell of WW fans simply not buying it?

#120 Edited by dshipp17 (981 posts) - - Show Bio

@bezza said:

..strong opinions on here, some say you are a minority if you don't like Azz's run others say the real WW fans didn't like it!!

I think Azz's comic is interesting, well drawn and different but one thing still gets me, if its that good, why are the sales so poor? Is there a large swell of WW fans simply not buying it?

I've made this point over and over again when I mention the Messner-Loebs fans, so yes, a sizable number of Wonder Woman fans are not buying and have been all but alienated entirely; Messner-Loebs' run ended nearly 20 years ago; hopefully, the Finch(es) will bring us all back and this fan base will prove loyal. Since Messner-Loebs left, every writer has tried to produce a Perez related style; I'm ok with Perez and other writers since Messner-Loebs, it's just a matter that my tastes align with Marston, Messner-Loebs, and Dejah Thoris more; DC may be trying to acquire Dynamite Entertainment, so, I surely hope the Finch(es) prove to at least be a transition run into molding Wonder Woman into a Dejah Thoris like character; Red Sonja, also.

#121 Posted by Super-Wonder (97 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17 said:

I surely hope the Finch(es) prove to at least be a transition run into molding Wonder Woman into a Dejah Thoris like character; Red Sonja, also.

I see where you're coming from with this statement but I feel that she's already too much in the vain of Red Sonja or Xena (I haven't read Deja Thoris). Great for those characters, I can get down with naked and ass-kickin' but I think that Wonder Woman should be more of her own entity with the challenge of making her more popular in the framework of her specific dynamics.

She's more of a walking heartbeat for me, not a raging heart attack.

#122 Edited by dshipp17 (981 posts) - - Show Bio

@super-wonder said:

@dshipp17 said:

I surely hope the Finch(es) prove to at least be a transition run into molding Wonder Woman into a Dejah Thoris like character; Red Sonja, also.

I see where you're coming from with this statement but I feel that she's already too much in the vain of Red Sonja or Xena (I haven't read Deja Thoris). Great for those characters, I can get down with naked and ass-kickin' but I think that Wonder Woman should be more of her own entity with the challenge of making her more popular in the framework of her specific dynamics.

She's more of a walking heartbeat for me, not a raging heart attack.

Yes, I would like Wonder Woman to stay her own character; I'm not necessarily saying that Wonder Woman should become a Dejah Thoris or Red Sonja clone; I'm talking about more something related to her environmental layout and her costume (e.g. I'd like Wonder Woman in an environment where the creatures such as the Green Men on Mars are really threats to Wonder Woman, where Wonder Woman can end up somewhere where no one is aware of her identity, and where Wonder Woman has to handle delicate situations, where the wrong decisions could put her in real peril; It would be good if things escaped Tartarus on Paradise Island or where Wonder Woman had to enter Tartarus for a time to resolve a diplomatic situations).

#123 Posted by Bezza (3544 posts) - - Show Bio

..another thing I disagree with, people who say "true Wonder Woman fans like Azz", or "true Wonder Woman fans are staying away"... You can be a true WW fan and not like a particular arc, we all have different tastes. Personally I prefer the Simone books to the Azzarello ones and its just personal preference, its an arrogant presumption for anyone to doubt another person's fan credentials based on their personal tastes!

#124 Posted by Lvenger (19428 posts) - - Show Bio

@bezza said:

..strong opinions on here, some say you are a minority if you don't like Azz's run others say the real WW fans didn't like it!!

I think Azz's comic is interesting, well drawn and different but one thing still gets me, if its that good, why are the sales so poor? Is there a large swell of WW fans simply not buying it?

Good comics do not always mean high ranking sales. Take a comic like Dan Slott's Superior Spider-Man for example. A lot of people on forum boards across the net have been hugely vocal about the poor quality and trite writing of the series. Yet it still sells in the range of 70,000-80,000 units a month on a consistent basis for some time now. In contrast, well written and hugely original comics from DC's New 52 have been cancelled whilst terribly written comics still live on. The small but popular Demon Knights was very well written yet due to sales falling to 10,000 copies, DC canned the series eventually whereas the terrible Catwoman series is still going due to sales of an undeserved writer, Ann Nocenti.

#125 Edited by r2datu (652 posts) - - Show Bio

@bezza said:

..another thing I disagree with, people who say "true Wonder Woman fans like Azz", or "true Wonder Woman fans are staying away"... You can be a true WW fan and not like a particular arc, we all have different tastes. Personally I prefer the Simone books to the Azzarello ones and its just personal preference, its an arrogant presumption for anyone to doubt another person's fan credentials based on their personal tastes!

This, so much.

@lvenger said:

@bezza said:

..strong opinions on here, some say you are a minority if you don't like Azz's run others say the real WW fans didn't like it!!

I think Azz's comic is interesting, well drawn and different but one thing still gets me, if its that good, why are the sales so poor? Is there a large swell of WW fans simply not buying it?

Good comics do not always mean high ranking sales. Take a comic like Dan Slott's Superior Spider-Man for example. A lot of people on forum boards across the net have been hugely vocal about the poor quality and trite writing of the series. Yet it still sells in the range of 70,000-80,000 units a month on a consistent basis for some time now. In contrast, well written and hugely original comics from DC's New 52 have been cancelled whilst terribly written comics still live on. The small but popular Demon Knights was very well written yet due to sales falling to 10,000 copies, DC canned the series eventually whereas the terrible Catwoman series is still going due to sales of an undeserved writer, Ann Nocenti.

This as well. Plus, it's not selling poorly. It's selling just a bit above most modern Wonder Woman runs. It's actually selling better on average than Simone's Wonder Woman was.

#126 Posted by Lvenger (19428 posts) - - Show Bio

@r2datu: True, I forgot to mention that. What some people's problem with the current sales figures is that it's nowhere near titles like Green Lantern, let alone Batman or Superman numbers. So they use that for justification that Azz's Wonder Woman isn't working. A poor argument suffice to say.

#127 Posted by TDK_1997 (14724 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@r2datu: True, I forgot to mention that. What some people's problem with the current sales figures is that it's nowhere near titles like Green Lantern, let alone Batman or Superman numbers. So they use that for justification that Azz's Wonder Woman isn't working. A poor argument suffice to say.

Well people think that since Wonder Woman is part of the big Trinity of DC she should have sales like Batman or Superman which is a pretty poor statement.Since Diana is nowhere near as popular as Superman or Batman.

#128 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

David Finch is one of the worst artists in comics today. His work is absolutely atrocious. He makes Forever Evil very hard to look at and I honestly have no idea why DC keeps this man around. He doesn't create art, he destroys it. If he's going to be on Wonder Woman then I'm probably going to end up dropping the title.

I'll be the first to agree that his work at DC blows - but back at Marvel, Finch's pencils were top-tier. Look at his covers for Messiah Complex, his work in Ultimatum and his run on Moon Knight. He used to be one of my favorite pencillers; it's just that his recent work for DC has taken a sharp downturn in quality and execution....

But yeah, Finch should not be allowed to write.

#129 Posted by Lvenger (19428 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark: I think the rumours are that Finch's wife will be writing the series. She's a relative unknown with little experience and if she does become the next Wonder Woman writer, there'll be an overhanging cloud about whether she got the gig because she's David Finch's wife. Couple that with Mr Finch's poor pencils and I have two solid reasons not to buy Wonder Woman after Azz's run concludes.

#130 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@veshark: I think the rumours are that Finch's wife will be writing the series. She's a relative unknown with little experience and if she does become the next Wonder Woman writer, there'll be an overhanging cloud about whether she got the gig because she's David Finch's wife. Couple that with Mr Finch's poor pencils and I have two solid reasons not to buy Wonder Woman after Azz's run concludes.

Huh. That's...well, a little odd but not entirely unheard of.

While I have no particular interest in New 52 Wonder Woman (though I am trying to get into her Pre-FP stuff), I think if one's a fan of the character, Mrs. Finch should at least be given an opportunity. Though hopes aren't exactly high, she might surprise you.

Then again, it seems like a huge leap from writing Zenescope titles to handling one of DC's Big Three books.

#131 Posted by Breadspread (774 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn. I just caught up on this series. It was the best run of the new 52.

#132 Posted by Bezza (3544 posts) - - Show Bio

Well that's interesting, I had been led to believe WW sales were down on previous ones. I had no idea she wasn't that popular in the comic book world, the fact that the WW forum has the 4th highest posting level for an individual character on comic vine, suggested to me she was more popular.

Interesting that Superior Spiderman gets a mention. Firstly, I think the sales are partly due to the massive popularity of the character and secondly people I talk to actually rate it as a comic, even if they hate the concept. Personally I admit I wont buy it!

My take on Azzarello's Wonder Woman comic is that I like it, but for my own taste (and again this is subjective), I'd like a bit more Wonder Woman action with powers and a story that isn't wholly greek mythology based - and before people say that WW is all about greek mythology, well Thor is a legend based character and not all his stories revolve around Asgardians...

#133 Edited by Outside_85 (8777 posts) - - Show Bio

@bezza: The physical sales have been stable around 30k'ish mark, which usually leaves it around the 60th spot of the Diamond charts. Obviously it's not superb, but it's far from cancellation levels that stuff like I, Vampire was knee deep into since everyone was trade waiting on it (which is a death sentence to DC books since it takes over half a year for books to be collected for some stupid reason). And WW's current sales is about 30 places better than it was near the end of Odyssey. Finally, we have to add that we now also have the unknown factor of digital sales, which could be anything.

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#134 Posted by herrweis (431 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: her numbers are in the same neighborhood as superman ( solo) ,bat girl (when its not within a batman storyline), flash and aquaman. Not too mention so called marvel heavyweights captain America and iron man.

#135 Posted by Lvenger (19428 posts) - - Show Bio

@herrweis: Exactly, they're good sales figures all things considered. I don't know why they're a point of weakness in the slightest.

#136 Posted by Bezza (3544 posts) - - Show Bio

..reading through Issue 29 again today, it is sad this series is going to finish. Wonder why they chose Finch?

#137 Edited by toplel (906 posts) - - Show Bio

We knew this was coming once Azz was done. Time to go into hibernation till the next good writer comes along, I guess.

#138 Posted by Bezza (3544 posts) - - Show Bio

@toplel:

..but why? Its not like there aren't enough decent writers out there who could have taken on the book...

#139 Edited by toplel (906 posts) - - Show Bio

@bezza: DC's lost a lot of talent due to their editorial meddling. If they don't have decent writers at hand, it's their own fault.

If the new writer is smart, he/she might follow in Azz's footsteps and keep WW isolated from the rest of the DCU and attempt to develop her and her cast instead of throwing her under the bus for Superman. But I'm sure editorial doesn't want that. We'll have to wait and see, though.

#140 Posted by Bezza (3544 posts) - - Show Bio

@toplel:

Still got some talent though! I'd have been interested to see what Buccellato and Manapul could have done, but they are busy elsewhere...

#141 Posted by toplel (906 posts) - - Show Bio

@bezza: Manapul and Buccellato would've definitely been worth sticking around for, that's for sure. But I guess they're not as big a name as Finch.

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