Azzerrello´s Challenge. Wonder Woman In One Sentence.

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#1 Posted by jphulk26 (1267 posts) - - Show Bio

I´m writing this short article as a Wonder Woman fan about a recent Time Out article by Brian Azzerrello´s Wonder Woman. I have recently been debating with a lot of people about the artistic merit of Azzerrello´s run on Wonder Woman, and what it bodes for the future of Diana´s mythology.

I want to start by saying I am no purist when it comes to comic book writing, I in fact love when writers come up with a new angle to explore the mythology of the characters we all know and cherish, however in my humble opinion Azzerrello is ruining Wonder Woman for future generations. I have noticed of all those who really get WW stories it tends to be outsiders or margenalized groups. Groups who traditionally don´t have a voice. Most of my friends who love her tend to be of ethnic background, women, gay friends in to comics or the 70s show, or just plain guys who struggled to be where they are today. Wonder Woman has always been a symbol of power when we feel weakest, and it is in that light as a feminist icon (for good reason) that I write this. To all those I´ve already discussed this issue with, thanks for your patience and tolerance of my passion, it just so happens Wonder Woman with a select few others like Hulk, Batman and Superman are characters that at certain point in my life inspired me.

Many I´ve discussed with on the site are fans of Azzerrello´s Wonder Woman; I myself was a huge fan on the work he did with The Joker, he´s a great writer with a really dark imagination - and in light of what I read of his in his Joker graphic novel as well as Before Watchmen, I recognize him to be a great talent, but enough of the fore play lets go on to the article and what I take exception to. I will quote him from his interview with Time Out, not all in order.

1. According to Azzerrello a good comic character has to be explainanble with in one sentence. This is his primary justification for potentially changing WW origin for years to come.

When asked: You know there are comic-book purists who hate the idea of Wonder Woman having a father.

"With Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, any really famous character, you can break their origins down into a sentence or two, and Wonder Woman didn’t have that. And the sentence or two is not for people who read comics; it’s for people outside of comics, in general popular culture. But now she is Zeus's daughter, and now it works. In a general pop-culture sense, it works. That’s something that everybody can get their head around" - Azzerrello.

I pressume he´s saying here that the reason WW comics weren´t selling as well before is that people could not summerize her origin in a single sentence, therefore she wasn´t a great character.

I say this to Arrezzello, what a bunch of nonsense. Batman, Superman and Spiderman are unfair comparisons, the reason they are all known - as well as their origin story - is because of the movies, cartoons and general media surrounding the characters. They are part of the collective imagination for that reason and that reason only. If people were more exposed to Wonder Woman, they also would be able to whip out fairly simple sentences describing who she is, she is yet to have that kind of exposure. If we were to time travel to the 70s the general public would know the Lynda Carter character and be able to explain who she is, but WB hasn´t done anything with her outside a monthly publication since then.

So here´s his challenge completed -

Wonder Woman Princess of the mythical Amazons, a tribe of isolated warrior women. She their greatest champion is gifted powers by the Gods that make her Earths mightiest warrior.

Or,

Diana the first born on an island of Warrior women for millenia seperated from the world of man, is gifted unearthly powers by the Gods, so as to become Earths mightiest champion of peace. The Worlds only Wonder Woman.

I could go on doing this all day. But that isn´t the point, on what planet is it true that a truly great fictional comic character is measured by how few sentences they can be explained in. Of course if they are truly convoluted stories they may not capture the publics imagination, but for every Spiderman you can explain by "Peter Parker young scientist is bitten by a radioactive spider, gifting him with powers akin to an araknid - now he fights for justice as Spider-man" Their are many more exceptional characters whose origins are not redusable to a few sentences if you are to get a sense of who they are. Take Wolverine, how could you explain what makes Wolverine a unique character in a single sentence. You can´t. It would take atleast a few. Even the big daddy of them all Superman one would be hard pressed to identify to someone who knows nothing about him exactly what he´s all about. We can get a way with saying, oh he´s "the last son of a dying planet, rocketed to earth, becoming Earths mightiest hero" or "faster than a speeding bullet..." because people already have a sense of who he is.

I don´t want to go on much longer cause I don´t want to bore you guys, but this is the last bit I took exception to in his interview.

How did this gig come about?

"I was out to dinner with Dan DiDio. This was actually prior to the New 52 becoming the New 52. We were actually in talks about me doing a different character. We’ve gone out to dinner and I told him what my feelings were about taking this character in a certain direction. He was happy with it, so we were finalizing that. I asked, “Are you doing this [heading in new directions] with some of the other ones?” He said Batman is staying Batman, and he told me what editorial wanted to do for Wonder Woman. I was appalled. I came up with something different right there at dinner. I thought the direction was going to be a mistake for that character, right at her core. And I knew nothing about her!..." - Azzerrello.

So here´s a guy who really has no interest in the character, doesn´t actually like her, but knows immediately what direction she needs to go in. Huh?!!

Now look, if I had the privilege of my dream job to work and write comics for DC or Marvel, and I could work on any character I like, I had the pick of the litter, I would probably not take on Aquaman or Antman. I certainly wouldn´t be so presumptuous as to think, hey, here´s a character I know nothing about, let me write a continuity for them that may well change them for the forseeable future and change their whole mythology. After all what do I know about Aquaman? Talks to fish, from Atlantis. You know what, that´s not catchy enough, how about he works at an Aquarium in Los Angele´s and figures out he has a connection to the fish Gods etc etc etc. If I could I´d write something in which I knew I could enhance the established story and characters historically connected to the character. I write a character I loved and if, if I was forced to write Antman to keep my dream job, I would research and write a story arch as wild as possible, but one that maintains the structure of the mythology, especially if I knew this was that characters chance to finally shine. If I trully thought I had an original story that deviated from that mythology, but kept to the spirit of the character, then I say lets make this a different continuity that can be collected into a graphic novel later on. That way everyone can be happy, no ones pissed off. As I´ve charged before, quite frankly I think Azzerrello is being creatively dishonest to himself and to Wonder Woman fans, his changes aren´t simple strokes, they are drastic and worse quite possibly perminent. Quite frankly for an artist his reasons are more than a joke as well, I know comics are a business, but if you choose to market only two of your properties properly the rest are bound to suffer. So thats my piece.

Heres a link to the complete interview, let me know what you think.

http://timeoutchicago.com/things-to-do/chicago-blog/15863746/wonder-woman-and-before-watchmen-writer-brian-azzarello-interview

#2 Posted by jphulk26 (1267 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry one last ridiculous statement from the interview:

"You know there are comic-book purists who hate the idea of Wonder Woman having a father. (Question)

Some people thought it was an insult to the ideal of feminism. Giving her a father was an assault to that. Though I have never met a feminist who didn’t have a father. ..." - Azzerrello

Here again a completely dismissive assessment of Diana´s mythology. What does this even mean.

OK I could say, I don´t know of any billionaire´s who´s parents died in front of them at a young age, in a senseless criminal act. Hence Batman should really have parents. That is not an argument, these are fictional characters.

Maybe the feminists or women or fans who take a offense, are angry because, Wonder Woman was a character that represented the fact that women could raise a child in the absence of a father, who turn out to be good or even great people. and maybe that was an inspiring message for gay couples or single parent families. I for one grew up without a father figure and related to Wonder Woman because of this. She demonstrated that women were perfectly capable of raising a strong, well rounded and noble child by themselves. This happens in real life, not everyone knows there father, and to them they may as well be a simple product of their mother alone.

#3 Edited by GhettoBond (7 posts) - - Show Bio

I do not wish to sound argumentative, nor am I trying to play Devil's advocate, but I will bring up a few things:

Brian Azzerrello never said that a good comic book character should be explainable in one or two sentences. He simply said their origin should be explainable in one or two sentences. Wolverine is a mutant with healing abilities that has an adamantium bone structure because of an experiment conducted on him. That's basically his origin in a nutshell.

There is a reason why Wonder Woman isn't represented more in popular culture: people don't buy her products. Wonder Woman is essentially my favorite comic character, but I'll admit it: she doesn't even break into the top 30 comics sold on a monthly basis. Businesses like DC and Warner are in business to give customers what they want. Customers have voted with their dollars, and apparently not many people are interested in Wonder Woman beyond the comics. Batman, Superman, Spider Man all have comics because people voted with their money, and the businesses gave them more of what they want.

Also, I don't understand your feminist argument. The billionaire comparison actually doesn't apply. Biologically, everyone has a mother and a father. Azzerrello is simply saying that he doesn't know anyone that doesn't have a male and a female parent. Wonder Woman has a biological father now, but it does not mean she was raised by a man. Azzerrello said it himself: Diana is no different, her environment is. Whether she was born of clay or of a sexual encounter with a man and a woman doesn't change the fact that she was not raised by a man. She was raised by women, and became a perfectly capable strong, well rounded and noble child. Just because sperm and an egg were involved doesn't change that. If anything, it should make her more relatable because she's got a closer connection to real human's who grew up without their fathers.

To me, the fact that she actually has a father does a few things: makes her much more relatable to real humans. Everyone human being on Earth has a biological father and a mother. You do, I do, President Obama does, and now Wonder Woman does. She also now has more siblings that she wasn't aware of. This detail is showing that Wonder Woman is a very real person, and it goes even further to show her compassion towards the half brothers and sisters she has, but never knew.

Sorry to sound like a prick, I'm really trying not to be. I just don't understand the complaining going on with the New 52 interpretation of Wonder Woman.

#4 Posted by cannibalisticgummybears (1 posts) - - Show Bio

LOL. Someone got schooled! and it wasn't GhettoBond. LOL. Seriously though. This is why Azzarello writes Wonder Woman and jphulk26 doesn't.

#5 Posted by jphulk26 (1267 posts) - - Show Bio

@GhettoBond: @GhettoBond said:

Also, I don't understand your feminist argument. The billionaire comparison actually doesn't apply. Biologically, everyone has a mother and a father. Azzerrello is simply saying that he doesn't know anyone that doesn't have a male and a female parent. Wonder Woman has a biological father now, but it does not mean she was raised by a man. Azzerrello said it himself: Diana is no different, her environment is. Whether she was born of clay or of a sexual encounter with a man and a woman doesn't change the fact that she was not raised by a man. She was raised by women, and became a perfectly capable strong, well rounded and noble child. Just because sperm and an egg were involved doesn't change that. If anything, it should make her more relatable because she's got a closer connection to real human's who grew up without their fathers.

To me, the fact that she actually has a father does a few things: makes her much more relatable to real humans. Everyone human being on Earth has a biological father and a mother. You do, I do, President Obama does, and now Wonder Woman does. She also now has more siblings that she wasn't aware of. This detail is showing that Wonder Woman is a very real person, and it goes even further to show her compassion towards the half brothers and sisters she has, but never knew.

Ghettobond - First off thanks for your thoughtful reply.

"Also, I don't understand your feminist argument. The billionaire comparison actually doesn't apply. Biologically, everyone has a mother and a father. Azzerrello is simply saying that he doesn't know anyone that doesn't have a male and a female parent. Wonder Woman has a biological father now, but it does not mean she was raised by a man. Azzerrello said it himself: Diana is no different, her environment is." _ Ghettobond

I appreciate and am happy you are finding joy in the current continuity of WW, I also want to state again that I am no purist. So your question breaks in to two parts, 1) Why is it that WW having a Dad is something I don´t support? 2) Doesn´t making her have a dad more relatable?

First off the answer to second question as far as I´m concerned is no. It actually makes no difference either way, I do not in any shape or form think that giving WW a biological father will make her more relatable or in long term increase her sales. Good stories will do that as well as more media exposure, like Spiderman and Batman and others you´ve mentioned.

One, if you say theirs something wrong with a character or a character needed a revamp correction, it immediately breeds suspicion that their is something fundamentally wrong with the character if every single run you keep launching it on the basis that improvements have been made that will make you really like this character now. Its like begging people please I have this broken defective product, but now I´ve really fixed it you know, cleaned up the engine, given it a new paint job, I know it wasn´t much before but please sir, please sir, please give it a chance now. Most people aren´t going to buy that, they´re just going to go with the guy who was confident about his product the whole time.

So WW problem was not that she didn´t have a dad, WW problem was Iron Man and Thors and The Avengers problem some years back, no one in the general public knew about them. Simple. Giving her a dad isn´t the miraculous ingrediant that has reinvigerated her, The New 52 marketing push is.

As for the point that all people have dads, therefore it makes it more realistic, and that Brian hasn´t changed the character just her enviroment. I´m sorry that´s utterly false. The fact is (and this answers the first question) we can not judge fictional characters by the standards of the real world. The world Wonder Woman lives in is fantastical, with mythical roots, and laws that are at odds with our own universe. Her father is a God, that makes absolutely no sense, it makes about as much sense as the suggestion that "a goddess with devine powers" Athena gave her life. Zeus taking human form is already an impossibility, so then saying oh its still more logical because Zeus is man and Hyppolyta´s a woman and that´s more like real life is an oxymoron; from the inception of a concept where Gods and mortals walk in the same world, where beings with powers capable of breaking the laws of physics coexist with humanity, you´ve already conceded that Dianas original origin in which a Goddess gave her life is perfectly plausible. In that universe in which men can fly and lift mountains, and sorceresses exist, and alchemists can make chunks of rock into gold, all known laws of the real universe no longer apply. All that exists is the endless ocean of humanities ability to dream. In this sense in these stories, the human imagination plays a much more significant role than merely presenting a world that is an exact facsimile of ours. Instead psychologically the world of fiction reflects human hopes, aspirations and dreams; they tell us about the monsters we fear, and the heroes we aspire to be. For female readers, feminists and some other groups, WW having two mothers, one human, one Goddess, therefore became an allegory of their own dreams and aspirations. It came at a time when it reflected their dreams of self empowerment and freedom. WW in the back of the mind of those who love her, without being able to exactly communicate it represents just that, a myth of female self-empowerment independent of men (but at the same time embracing them as an equal), but also to all those who feel dissenfranshised, she´s literally that which is perceived weak made strong. For me that is a great myth, which is worthy of preservation for future generations.

But if you think I´m being to much of a hippy about things, put it this way, we´ve already conceded in the universe WW comes from, much weirder things have happened than a Goddess granting her most ardent patron a child. For instance it is just as weird that Centaurs exist, or that Gods come down who have divine powers, and mess with humans for their own amusement. All these things are equally impossible and fantastical.

So lets just go by originality and uniqueness? The initial story of WW, is a story completely unique to that character, no other literary creation in the history of the narrative arts has had a story that is in any way similar to that of WW´s. In that sense, and the fact that everything written about her since has been premised on this very unique story, how is it possible that by changing it you are not fundamentally changing the character? Then there´s Arrezzello´s story, which is Diana is now a bastard child of Zeus, who is set to protect humanity from the naughty Gods. That is really in purely literary sense unoriginal at best and plagerism at worst. Its a story as old as Hercules, Jesus Christ, and any other number of demigods. It takes an original story and makes it absolutely generic.

@GhettoBond said:

  1. I do not wish to sound argumentative, nor am I trying to play Devil's advocate, but I will bring up a few things:
  1. Brian Azzerrello never said that a good comic book character should be explainable in one or two sentences. He simply said their origin should be explainable in one or two sentences. Wolverine is a mutant with healing abilities that has an adamantium bone structure because of an experiment conducted on him. That's basically his origin in a nutshell

Lastly, I actually meant knew he meant a superheroes origin. I think with in reason my explaniation of Wonder woman in a sentence was relatively sound. I can think of a thousand more ways to say it. I on the other hand would challenge you by saying with all due respect that explaintation of Wolverine would be quite confusing to the layman. What´s a mutant? whats adamantium? everyone has healing abilities?! is that really his origin? don´t get me wrong, good explanation, but a lot more exposition would be needed for me to really say I´m hooked. Wolverine´s mythology is far more layered, and his origin too. There are many more superheroes like this. some you can sum up in a nutshell as you´ve eloquently pointed out, others are far more difficult. But most who one can sum up, I think its due to the general public having some prior knowledge. Once we say mutant, people think, oh X-Men films, or animated show, those not into comics fill in the gaps with bits and pieces picked up from the media.

Anyway that is my case rested for now, and thanks for the thoughtful reply.

#6 Posted by fodigg (6094 posts) - - Show Bio

I have to agree with Azz. The changes he made will help grow WW with the general audience, and giving her a father the way he did doesn't really lose anything from the core character of WW.

#7 Posted by jphulk26 (1267 posts) - - Show Bio

@cannibalisticgummybears: lol, I don´t give up that easily.

#8 Edited by Press Oblivion (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

@GhettoBond: Your points about people voting with their dollar is something that I have been advocating when it comes to Wonder Woman's treatment. I also think this monetary relevance also is responsible for DC making so many changes to Wonder Woman over the years because they are looking for something to stick to her that makes the same impact for Superman and Batman.

@cannibalisticgummybears: No one got schooled here, just two people sharing thoughtful discussion. Perhaps if Didio had dinner that night with JP and not Azzarello, we would have a different Wonder Woman today?

@jphulk26 said:

as far as I´m concerned is no. It actually makes no difference either way, I do not in any shape or form think that giving WW a biological father will make her more relatable or in long term increase her sales. Good stories will do that as well as more media exposure, like Spiderman and Batman and others you´ve mentioned.

Agreed.

#9 Posted by theOVOXO (94 posts) - - Show Bio

I enjoy Azz's work on Wonder Woman, although this is my first time reading a WW comic. I'm sure that other people feel that other writers are better, but i'll check those out later. To me Diana being a demi-god isn't a bad thing. She is the child of Queen of the Amazons and King of the Gods, Zeus. It explains why Diana is so powerful in the first place. Sleeping with one man doesn't make Hippolyta a slut. Really Zeus sleeps with every woman he finds attractive by downgrading from his godly form to a more attractive one. However in Hippolyta's case, Zeus was himself. He didnt have to downgrade to woe Hippolyta. In my eyes, Zeus respected her as his equal nothing else. I liked how Azz wrote Diana's reaction. She was happy that she could call Hippolyta mother knowing her blood was in her. But, she felt betrayed that she was lied to. Then again, Hera is known in the myths to seek revenge on Zeus' lovers and their children., so Hera being a bitch is really common in greek mythology.

Even when Diana was taught by War people complained. I don't understand why. Back in the day, most wars were fought by men and that's why Ares is a male. But the fact that Ares the embodiment of war itself wanted Diana to be his replacement says alot about woman. Basically Azz is stating that woman can be just as powerful as men, so that makes her even a more respected female icon. Athena was a respected god to the Greeks even thought she was a woman. I would go as to say that she is the most respected after Zeus to the greeks.

Azz run has some highs and low, but i still enjoy it. It shows that Diana is a powerful being in DC. Not only is she powerfull but understanding, determined, trustworthy, wise, and badass. It seems that DC has actually sees WW's full iconic potential. Not only is WW's comic getting good reviews but is finally getting another live action series( hopefully one as successful as Arrow), also there is still talk that a movie is being developed (hopefully its sees the light of day and is good). Sure maybe not many people agree with me, but atleast i respect WW for all her flaws pre and post 52.

#10 Edited by Press Oblivion (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

@theOVOXO: I don't think Wonder Woman getting a live action series has anything to do with the comic. They've been trying to get Diana on a screen since 2006 when Joss Whedon was attached to it.

#11 Posted by Brazen_Intellect (1120 posts) - - Show Bio

" The finest example of boobs meets magic lasso in the comic book world"

#12 Posted by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

"Wonder Woman fights crime in a swimsuit to bring happiness to all men"

#13 Posted by jphulk26 (1267 posts) - - Show Bio

@colonyofcells: lol true that.

#14 Posted by Press Oblivion (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

@colonyofcells said:

"Wonder Woman fights crime in a swimsuit to bring happiness to all men"

LOL the same can't be said for Superman.

#15 Posted by kapitein_zeppos (341 posts) - - Show Bio

I refuse to believe that the whole dad thing wasn't something that was concocted during a brainstorm session with the writers and editors, they just put in a list of things, like "relatable", "change origin", "needs to be in touch with modern culture", "more Xena" etc ... Azzarello got a blank check for the rest and he created his own version of WW.

It's more than clear that DC doesn't have a consistent policy for WW and still have no clue how to handle her between JLA and her own comic. Look at the whole black pants and jacket episode, they announced major changes only to return her to a status quo in the last issue before the 52 reboot.

My guess is that once Azz moves on, lots of things will be shuffled around and we'll see more retcon and backpedalling on things Azzarello established, which will be more proof that DC either don't have a clue what to do with WW or simply don't care enough.

#16 Posted by Kratesis (4266 posts) - - Show Bio

The whole 'one sentence' thing is probably what's called a High Concept. Basically with almost any marketable work you need a single sentence that sums up what your work is about. Perhaps that's not fair, perhaps its too simple but its also proven to sell. Over, and over, and over among thousands of books, movies, TV shows, comic characters, and so much more.

In those terms yes, WW needed a better high concept. I don't like everything about the one that was chosen, but at least she has one now.

#17 Posted by jphulk26 (1267 posts) - - Show Bio

@Kratesis said:

The whole 'one sentence' thing is probably what's called a High Concept. Basically with almost any marketable work you need a single sentence that sums up what your work is about. Perhaps that's not fair, perhaps its too simple but its also proven to sell. Over, and over, and over among thousands of books, movies, TV shows, comic characters, and so much more.

In those terms yes, WW needed a better high concept. I don't like everything about the one that was chosen, but at least she has one now.

@kapitein_zeppos:

@Kratesis: @kapitein_zeppos: I really hope you don´t think "Zeus Daughter, therefore she has powers" is a high concept - as in a good one sentence description that is enticing.

What´s wrong with this?

Wonder Woman Princess of the mythical Amazons, a tribe of isolated warrior women. She their greatest champion is gifted powers by the Gods that make her Earths mightiest warrior.

Or,

Diana the first born on an island of Warrior women for millenia seperated from the world of man, is gifted unearthly powers by the Gods, so as to become Earths mightiest champion of peace. The Worlds only Wonder Woman.

Can you really honestly tell me you think Wonder Woman didn´t sell before, because you couldn´t describe her in one sentence. Really. You don´t think its rather poor management of her by DC, because they lack confidence in their female or ethic characters. Their staff mainly being white middle class men, who have no idea how to write women or ethnic minorities compellingly as lead characters. I mean DC are getting absolutely clobbered by Marvel. Do you know why, because they have no pride in their product. DC has made its money mainly by ripping off or conning young talented artists and writers, stealing their ideas and giving them little or no compensation for it. Just look at Joe Schuester or Allan Moore. Compare this with Marvel, where all the flagship characters were lovingly created by one or two men. Because Stan Lee created nearly all the characters, their is an in-built love in the company for them. They therefore market them properly, in movies, animated shows, animated films, graphic novels, huge overarching storylines etc.

where´s Flash´s animated film, or his animated tv show, or god forbid his film? or the spectres? or Martian Manhunters?

Do you think DC would ever have the balls to do a superhero film with a black guy as the lead, like Marvel did with Blade?

When they had the Watchmen, why didn´t they do an adult themed animated series, so as to market the film before it came out? Or get writers to do the "before watchmen" title as a run up to the movie?

The fact is DC are heavily relying on a few publications per month to keep them afloat (Superman, Batman, Justice League and recently Green Lantern) and it`s going to catch up with them eventually. They are slowly being buried by Marvel, and Marvel is so ahead now, that if they wanted to be truly viscious to DC they could seriously take it to them. They could write blank checks to all DC best talent on the New 52, and trust me they´d leave. The worse thing about it is, by and large DC have the far more original characters, and they aren´t using them. Its just sad.

@kapitein_zeppos said:

My guess is that once Azz moves on, lots of things will be shuffled around and we'll see more retcon and backpedalling on things Azzarello established, which will be more proof that DC either don't have a clue what to do with WW or simply don't care enough.

I hope so brother.

#18 Posted by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the current plan for Wonder Woman to have her protect people from the evil greek gods leads to lots of great stories similar to the current Thor movies where Thor fights mostly evil norse mythology characters.

#19 Posted by Press Oblivion (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

@kapitein_zeppos said:

I refuse to believe that the whole dad thing wasn't something that was concocted during a brainstorm session with the writers and editors, they just put in a list of things, like "relatable", "change origin", "needs to be in touch with modern culture", "more Xena" etc ... Azzarello got a blank check for the rest and he created his own version of WW.

The whole Xena-esque thing really bothers me and I'm not sure why, It's not really the Xena thinkg it's the sword. I don't like that she's running around with the sword, she never needed that before and I'd like to set a challenge to the writers of her character to get rid of it. . . .not that she uses it that often, it just doesn't fit.

#20 Posted by Kratesis (4266 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26: That's mostly a giant rant against DC and their business practices. Not really on topic with Diana.

What's wrong with the two 'high concepts' you listed is neither are very clear or compelling. They are also more then one sentence. If you were to pitch those today, neither would fly and for good reason.

Diana needed this change. I don't agree with all of it, but I do agree that a change was needed.

#21 Posted by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Wonder Woman should continue to carry a sword so she can easily slice kryptonians and greek gods and humans if needed.

#22 Posted by jphulk26 (1267 posts) - - Show Bio

@Press Oblivion: @kapitein_zeppos: @Kratesis: Look my descitption may not be the best, but its better than "Zeus´s Daughter" and I´m sure a more talented writer could sum it up in a punchy fashion. The point I was trying to make which you´ve willfully ignored is that DC have far better characters, who are truly cherished by the fans, but because they don´t market them properly i.e. WW there comic sales suffer, and instead of looking to themselves to figure out the problem, they blame the character. WW is a fictional character, so it can´t be her fault she has no volition she´s what ever writers make of her. Everyday I come across people on the internet who´ve written fantastic fanfiction, or film scripts of WW, and these guys at DC are paid loads of money to come up with this stuff and they can´t. Its there fault not WW. If you want her to be successful as well as bringing in new fans you need to also appease old fans, Azzerrello has lost all the old fans and replaced them with new ones who only like his take because they´ve never read any thing else, and his sales are showing that. When "ww: blood" came out it was in the top 10, publications in DC, because old school WW fans thought ok cool, someones doing a darker edgier take on WW, and we were totally into it. Now whats happened since then? The old school WW fans were absolutely appalled by what Azzerrello did, and the people who agreed with Azzerrello out of ignorance that WW some hopw needed a complete change in origin continue reading it. But now the sales of her publication have dropped significantly because he´s lost the old school fans of her, again she´s barely making the top 60. Her sales have plumetted. Now if Azzerrello had been sensible and somehow made his horror story take on WW fit with her original mythology, and deepened that mythology, and used her supporting cast and her villains, he would have had the audience and old audience on board and her comic would still be in the top 10. What he´s done is plane stupìd.

I don´t want my WW light and fluffy, I like her being a bad ass warrior, I like the greek mythology and modern takes on the gods and I especially love when people look at a different aspect of her mythology, shedding new light on it; but writers like Greg Rucka and Gail Simone have done that and they recieved high critical praise, I believe one of them actually won an Eisner award for their run because it ws so good. But people just had no idea, because DC wasn´t marketting their product properly. Just like really great novels that no ones heard of, that doesn´t stop it from being a great novel, it just means the publishers aren´t doing their job properly.

so anyway that´s my answer, if dollars are voting for Azzerrlos success he´s spectacuraly failed, look up WW sales numbers now and you´ll see.

#23 Posted by Kratesis (4266 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26: You're missing my point I believe. As a high concept 'Zeus's daughter' is actually fantastic. Far far better then anything in the past, when viewed from the context of high concepts.

Is it a miracle cure? No. I don't believe WW will EVER sustain long term placement in the top ten sales wise. Female characters never sell high in the long term. As much as I'd like to change that, I don't think its possible. Most comic fans are male, that's just the way the demographic breaks down.

Deepening her mythology? Depends on exactly how you mean. Its clear that her old version wasn't competitive. No one was happy. So why double down on something that rarely worked? No, its best to keep the good stuff, ditch the bad stuff, and move on. I'm NOT saying I love everything, or agree with everything, just that over all eggs had to be broken to make a new omelet.

She's 54th right now I believe. Honestly she's lucky to not be lower, My Little Pony is rocking the charts, Marvel opened what.. nine new books? Batman has an big arc going on and you know what that means. Frankly she's running around her historical average right now, which certainly does not indicated that 'all the old fans left'. It indicates that on the whole all the people who always by Wonder Woman have continued to buy her.

#24 Posted by jphulk26 (1267 posts) - - Show Bio

That´s your argument? I don´t mean to be rude but that´s laughable. Tell me this why is it that Thor, Captain America, and Iron man aree selling high numbers now, when in just the recent past they were not even in the top 80 publications. Why is it nearly everyone on the planet knows who The Avengers are, when just a few years ago the general public had no knowledge whatsoever about The Avengers. Its called marketing. And finally, do you know why I read WW now. Because I didn´t up until this year, in fact maybe in the last 6 months. Why? because of the animated film. Before it wasn´t even on my radar, it was like I knew she existed, but nothing else. That´s marketing the character, and they won from that I´m sure several new fans. Female characters can obviously sell in movies or comics or anything else, it just takes the will to do it. Stop hitting me up this hard nosed bullshit realism. Its farsical. I´m sorry for sounding rude but it really is.

#25 Posted by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

I am sure the live action Justice League movie, live action Wonder Woman movie and live action CW Amazon tv show will help Wonder Woman a lot to catch up with the Marvelous competition. Everything is just a matter of time.

#26 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@GhettoBond: wonder woman doesn't sell enough because she isn't exposed enough and don't have the right marketing,females with less sales like elektra and supergirl had their own movie and if the movies would have been good,they could have made them more successful in comic sales,avengers wasn't that populat in the last year and thank to the movie now they sell good,the same with thor.

in the 70s wonder woman had very good sales and was popular because of the lynda carter show,what also helps to sell is a good story,but if you also do the right marketing to expand the character obiously she will sell more comics,she needs to be exposed more,the right marketing,all the things that helped characters like thor,he wasn't even in the top 80 and the movie made him a successful comic titl,wonder woman needs that,be exposed more,proper marketing to get to a wider audience her comic sales will increase eventually.

#27 Edited by drgnx (3518 posts) - - Show Bio

@Press Oblivion said:

@GhettoBond: Your points about people voting with their dollar is something that I have been advocating when it comes to Wonder Woman's treatment. I also think this monetary relevance also is responsible for DC making so many changes to Wonder Woman over the years because they are looking for something to stick to her that makes the same impact for Superman and Batman.

I guess the Bat-family must rake in the doe, this is not even counting the non-new 52 comics like Earth-1, WW appears in 2 comics and Wondergirl in 1, I'm not counting earth-2 yet. Funny part is WW gets an E-1 comic but so does Nightwing.

Batman (& family)

  1. Batman
  2. Batman The Dark Knight
  3. Batman and Robin
  4. Batman Incorporated
  5. Detective Comics

Bat Family

  1. Catwomen
  2. Batwomen
  3. Batgirl
  4. Batwing
  5. Nightwing
  6. Talon - spawned from Batman and family crossover event

Teams with Bat family

  1. Justice League (Batman) - to be fair has main top heroes incl. WW
  2. Justice League International (Batman, Batwing) - cancelled recently
  3. Teen Titans (Red Robin) - to be fair has Junior versions of some of the main top heroes incl. WG
  4. Redhood and the Outlaws (Redhood)
  5. World's Finest - also has power girl (basically an interaction of a Superman/Batman series)
  6. Birds of Prey (various) - tempted to say Bat family

1-4 pretty much have a Bat family member leading around the team with a Superman-type character, '5' is more of a partnership

#28 Posted by Press Oblivion (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

@Kratesis said:

Diana needed this change. I don't agree with all of it, but I do agree that a change was needed.

I think so too. That was the whole point of the JMS run. If she grows up in New York, she isn't saddled with trying to understand the culture she's trying to be a part of.

@jphulk26: Marketing isn't the only answer. You mentioned that you've only gotten into Wonder Woman this year. DC has been publishing Wonder Woman comics a lot longer than that but you never gave her character a thought before then.You used to look at Wonder Woman and then move onto the next thing on the shelf just as a majority of the comic book collecting community does today and as they have always done. She's fortunate to have you on her side but what are the chances of converting more like you? That's a hurdle that no one knows how to approach.

Marketing is a secondary creature, it looks at what's popular in the medium, in this case comics, and asks which of these properties is making the most money in this genre. Oh Wolverine generates comic book sales . . . let's put him in every title, let's make merchandise and movies and cartoons. Oh Batman generates sales . . . let's put him in every title, let's make merchandise and movies and cartoons.

Marketing sees that Wonder Woman does not equal sales and that directly related to how they are going to market her no matter what medium she's in. It's not just DC that you're up against when you're trying to make your stand about what you believe to be the absolute truth, you are also up against a community of comic cook collectors who don't give a shit about Wonder Woman. You can show that Wonder Woman Animated Movie to a million comic book collectors who have never given her a second thought in their lives and all of them will say . . .hey that was cool . . . and then never buy a Wonder Woman comic as long as they live. This is what you and DC are up against.

DC does have the money to promote her the way that we would ideally want, but there has to be a greater voice from the market place. That voice calling for Batman and DC is answering that call. You and I and Gokuwarrior are running along this forum like broken records to no avail. All of our points have validity but we haven't identified the real problem, I say it's the comic buying community, you say it's the corporate giant and alack of respect for the character, perhaps it's more than that or it may be something that no one is seeing.

Azzarello's run isn't a travesty or an injustice to the character, it's DC saying let's give something else a try, because what's come before didn't really work, to help make Wonder Woman more appealing to bring in more readers. I think that her characterization is pretty comparable to what's come before, as I've stated elsewhere, most of the elements are there, just rearranged. As I've stated, it's not what I wanted to see but it's not bad. It's frustrating to hear other Wonder Woman fans react to the thought of another Wonder Woman title with "Who's gonna buy it?". That's the 800 pound beast in the room that's keeping Wonder Woman from running out the door and running free in the hearts of people everywhere.

#29 Posted by jphulk26 (1267 posts) - - Show Bio

@Press Oblivion: I mean, I think you´re right, a lot of people might not go and pick up a comic. But I´ll tell you one thing its a lot easier to get people to watch something than to read it. There was actually genuine excitement for the WW tv show before it came out. People were really looking forward to it, but alas again DC were to timid to actually just do a WW story, they opted to try and fix what wasn´t broken, and it was a shambles. My my point is this, ok I watched an animated show, then decided actually i like her she´s quite cool, i´m sure you´re right, maybe 80% of the people who saw it thought, cool, and then just moved on but 20% of people saw the film and became curious and decided to pick up a comic of hers. If you then were to add an animated show, kids would grow up liking her, then you´ve got even more of an audience, with a gamble that isn´t even that big. But what happens when we do get interested, we are hooked by the animated film? we go to buy a comic or graphic novel and find that her comics are a complete mess, and her graphic novels almost nonexistent. This is why I believe for the first time WW needed focus in this big launch, who ever wrote her needed to sift through the runs and really take from them and bring focus to her mythology and her villains. The real truth is superheroes don´t sell books, its there villains that do, someone like Azzerrello has the writing chops to have really done something special with Dianas rogues, but he missed that opportunity completely and from what I´ve seen has created in a year some of the least memorable villains and characters I´ve seen in WW. I mean for god sake, he made poiseden a massive frog creature from what I saw. I stopped reading after that. I am at the moment trying to download the rest of the series, because I wanna know what all these Azzerrello fans are talking about, but I will never buy that WW publication again or at least until a new writer comes on board.

@gokuwarrior:

#30 Edited by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@Press Oblivion: excuse me but even other females that sell way less had a movie like elektra,supergirl,the movies did poorly in box office becaus they were bad so nothing happened,but if it's done right it can improve comic sales,like thor,he wasn't selling good some years ago and his movie improved his comic sales the same for captain america,even black widow has a brighter future as a character thank to be exposed in avengers movie,so don't say that wonder woman doesn't have more promotion and marketing because she doesn't sell,because that's not the case.

you can also see examples in the japanese work,DBZ and sailor moon weren't best seller worldwide until they had their animated show based on the books,so there are a lot of examples where the proper marketing was able to improve the sales of the books,that can work for wonder woman,try and see what happens,only then someone can tell which is the real reason to not marketing her,but until they do it and fail,your poit won't be proven,because i already named you examples of how the right marketing in movies and TV helped to improve sales in the comics,so until they do the same for wonder woman,we won't know if it can work for her too or not.

#31 Edited by jphulk26 (1267 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26: @Kratesis: How about this "Super-powered Warrior Princess" That´s about as informative as Zeus Daughter.

@gokuwarrior: @Press Oblivion: Its really true what he´s saying Press Oblivion. Believe it or not, even the great supermans sales were suffering greatly some years back. and when the 90s xmen cartoon came out X titles dominated almost exclusively the top 10 for some years and are still going strong today. I just think it becomes a bit of a circular argument, if you don´t try you´ll never find out. But negative media exposure could hurt her at the moment, so I really hope the TV show is good and modernises her in an interesting way.

I mean the argument is she´s not popular enough to get graphic novels, animated show, comic book crossover event etc, but what other avenue do you have, I didn´t not buy her comics before because I didn´t like her, I just didn´t know much about her. The most I knew was from the 70s TV show, which I watched and enjoyed as a kid, but was to young to comprehend what was really going on. That just goes to show the power of TV a show that was 10 years older than me, I honestly wouldn´t have even known wonder woman existed if it weren´t for the TV show. But when I got into comics the memory of her show had long passed and because of the Xmen cartoon, I bought a lot of x titles, and she just faded into the background. That was even how I got into comics it was a TV show. Now maybe thats not the same experience for most people, but I highly doubt it and giving her more media exposure I would bet my entire saving on it would gradually improve her comic sales. It just would cause she´s quite a cool character, DC need to stop fixing diana and try a new approach, believe in her.

#32 Posted by Kratesis (4266 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

That´s your argument? I don´t mean to be rude but that´s laughable. Tell me this why is it that Thor, Captain America, and Iron man aree selling high numbers now, when in just the recent past they were not even in the top 80 publications.

Believe it or not those top slots are not hammered in stone. There are some books that consistently sell well, but MOST books move around depending on a lot of factors.

Why is it nearly everyone on the planet knows who The Avengers are, when just a few years ago the general public had no knowledge whatsoever about The Avengers. Its called marketing.

Actually its called a movie. A movie isn't marketing, although it involves marketing.

And finally, do you know why I read WW now. Because I didn´t up until this year, in fact maybe in the last 6 months. Why? because of the animated film. Before it wasn´t even on my radar, it was like I knew she existed, but nothing else. That´s marketing the character, and they won from that I´m sure several new fans.

No doubt, but to be clear a movie IS NOT MARKETING, but it does involve marketing.

Female characters can obviously sell in movies or comics or anything else, it just takes the will to do it. Stop hitting me up this hard nosed bullshit realism. Its farsical. I´m sorry for sounding rude but it really is.

Do they sell? Yes. Do they sell as well as male characters overall, for extended periods of time. No. That is a fact and it is also a very obvious fact. I'm not sure how you are disputing it as its rather like saying the moon is purple.

There is a saying 'Don't reinforce failure'. I think its relevant here.

Wonder Woman before was not working. Her mythology that you seem so attached to was bizarre and confusing. I've read WW for many, many years and almost EVERY new writer would make changes out of the blue. Supporting cast came and went like tumbleweeds. Gods were different every time. Sometimes they were mythological, sometimes they were aliens or something.

Obviously to me, and obviously to the people at DC that didn't work in terms of sales. So instead of doubling down on what DIDN'T work, they decided to take a risk and try to find something that did work.

Now did that magically solve every problem? Nope. Do I agree with every choice. Nope. But it needed to be done. A change WAS needed, and I'm glad someone had the courage to try.

#33 Posted by moywar700 (2775 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

@Press Oblivion: @kapitein_zeppos: @Kratesis: Look my descitption may not be the best, but its better than "Zeus´s Daughter" and I´m sure a more talented writer could sum it up in a punchy fashion. The point I was trying to make which you´ve willfully ignored is that DC have far better characters, who are truly cherished by the fans, but because they don´t market them properly i.e. WW there comic sales suffer, and instead of looking to themselves to figure out the problem, they blame the character. WW is a fictional character, so it can´t be her fault she has no volition she´s what ever writers make of her. Everyday I come across people on the internet who´ve written fantastic fanfiction, or film scripts of WW, and these guys at DC are paid loads of money to come up with this stuff and they can´t. Its there fault not WW. If you want her to be successful as well as bringing in new fans you need to also appease old fans, Azzerrello has lost all the old fans and replaced them with new ones who only like his take because they´ve never read any thing else, and his sales are showing that. When "ww: blood" came out it was in the top 10, publications in DC, because old school WW fans thought ok cool, someones doing a darker edgier take on WW, and we were totally into it. Now whats happened since then? The old school WW fans were absolutely appalled by what Azzerrello did, and the people who agreed with Azzerrello out of ignorance that WW some hopw needed a complete change in origin continue reading it. But now the sales of her publication have dropped significantly because he´s lost the old school fans of her, again she´s barely making the top 60. Her sales have plumetted. Now if Azzerrello had been sensible and somehow made his horror story take on WW fit with her original mythology, and deepened that mythology, and used her supporting cast and her villains, he would have had the audience and old audience on board and her comic would still be in the top 10. What he´s done is plane stupìd.

I don´t want my WW light and fluffy, I like her being a bad ass warrior, I like the greek mythology and modern takes on the gods and I especially love when people look at a different aspect of her mythology, shedding new light on it; but writers like Greg Rucka and Gail Simone have done that and they recieved high critical praise, I believe one of them actually won an Eisner award for their run because it ws so good. But people just had no idea, because DC wasn´t marketting their product properly. Just like really great novels that no ones heard of, that doesn´t stop it from being a great novel, it just means the publishers aren´t doing their job properly.

so anyway that´s my answer, if dollars are voting for Azzerrlos success he´s spectacuraly failed, look up WW sales numbers now and you´ll see.

Wonder Woman may be in the top 60 but how many of those books are minis,1's, or books that have been out for a few months? I counted off all the comics who that have 1's,minis, or have been out for a few months.She's actually ranks among top 20 which is really good.She would had been higher if the Bat-titles weren't so dependent on Bat-events.

#34 Edited by jphulk26 (1267 posts) - - Show Bio

@moywar700: I agree that alot of her runs before by some of the DC writers were very sketchy, but in recent history their have been really good attempts to keep consistent and maintain her supporting cast. In any case I know a lie to win an argument when I hear it, and I don´t for one second believe your story that you´ve rea Wonder Woman before. It just strikes me as untrue. Maybe you read one or two, but I´m just not buying that you read Gail Simone´s "the circle" or anything by Rucka at least not consistently. I´m sorry to just plain out call you a liar, but her mythology is not in the slightest confusing and only someone who´s not read her properly would say that. The only confusion comes from people like Azzerrello and JMS who come in with their big ideas and fuck everything up. I read great literature most of the time, proust, dostoevsky, so a comic has to be really good and have some interesting things to say for me to get into it, and they were excellent and the mythology was very clear. they won awards as stated before. so either you haven´t read it or you´ve got very bad taste; considering that you argue quite intelligently, I´m prone to think the former rather than the latter.

By the way yes movies are marketing a character. Ofcourse they are.

#35 Posted by UltraBiel (328 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't get me wrong I'm really loving "new 52 Wonder Woman" but for me she is like a completely different character, she could even have another name.

The problem with her having a father is that DC just confirmed what everyone told before. It is almost impossible to make an heroine without a dominant male figure at her side.

Wonder Woman was one of the few, that alone made her an icon. Now she is just like all the others.

#36 Posted by jphulk26 (1267 posts) - - Show Bio

@moywar700: what?

#37 Posted by Kratesis (4266 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said: I assume you're replying to me.

@moywar700: I agree that alot of her runs before by some of the DC writers were very sketchy, but in recent history their have been really good attempts to keep consistent and maintain her supporting cast.

Sure, however those attempts were not successful in the end. Perhaps some of them could have been, but the editorial control wasn't there.

In any case I know a lie to win an argument when I hear it, and I don´t for one second believe your story that you´ve rea Wonder Woman before. It just strikes me as untrue. Maybe you read one or two, but I´m just not buying that you read Gail Simone´s "the circle" or anything by Rucka at least not consistently. I´m sorry to just plain out call you a liar, but her mythology is not in the slightest confusing and only someone who´s not read her properly would say that.

That's quite rude and uncalled for.

The only confusion comes from people like Azzerrello and JMS who come in with their big ideas and fuck everything up. I read great literature most of the time, proust, dostoevsky, so a comic has to be really good and have some interesting things to say for me to get into it, and they were excellent and the mythology was very clear. they won awards as stated before. so either you haven´t read it or you´ve got very bad taste; considering that you argue quite intelligently, I´m prone to think the former rather than the latter.

Also quite rude, and equally uncalled for.

Additionally nether of these ad hominems address my point. The mythology, the support cast, and often the themes changed for writer to writer. Not all of them changed it, but enough of them did and in such significant ways that it was often bewildering.

By the way yes movies are marketing a character. Ofcourse they are.

Movies INVOLVE marketing a character, but the movie itself IS NOT marketing a character.

Last but not least you do not address my central claim. Wonder Woman needed a change of some kind. What was being done was not working. The current change may not please everyone, but you can't please all of the people all of the time, or even some of the people all of the time. The best you can do is please some of the people some of the time.

And the current direction is an attempt to make that group as large as is practical. Its a decision I agree with.

#38 Posted by jphulk26 (1267 posts) - - Show Bio

@Kratesis: I have answered you many times, I don´t think she needed a change, I think the way DC operates needs a change. Even the comic writers and artists frequently complain about how they do business at DC and prefer Marvel. Market the character = comic sales. Before they´ve tried that, changing her origin in such a way as to piss off your only loyal customers is pretty fucking dumb.

#39 Posted by OutlawRenegade (1236 posts) - - Show Bio

@GhettoBond said:

I do not wish to sound argumentative, nor am I trying to play Devil's advocate, but I will bring up a few things:

Brian Azzerrello never said that a good comic book character should be explainable in one or two sentences. He simply said their origin should be explainable in one or two sentences. Wolverine is a mutant with healing abilities that has an adamantium bone structure because of an experiment conducted on him. That's basically his origin in a nutshell.

There is a reason why Wonder Woman isn't represented more in popular culture: people don't buy her products. Wonder Woman is essentially my favorite comic character, but I'll admit it: she doesn't even break into the top 30 comics sold on a monthly basis. Businesses like DC and Warner are in business to give customers what they want. Customers have voted with their dollars, and apparently not many people are interested in Wonder Woman beyond the comics. Batman, Superman, Spider Man all have comics because people voted with their money, and the businesses gave them more of what they want.

Also, I don't understand your feminist argument. The billionaire comparison actually doesn't apply. Biologically, everyone has a mother and a father. Azzerrello is simply saying that he doesn't know anyone that doesn't have a male and a female parent. Wonder Woman has a biological father now, but it does not mean she was raised by a man. Azzerrello said it himself: Diana is no different, her environment is. Whether she was born of clay or of a sexual encounter with a man and a woman doesn't change the fact that she was not raised by a man. She was raised by women, and became a perfectly capable strong, well rounded and noble child. Just because sperm and an egg were involved doesn't change that. If anything, it should make her more relatable because she's got a closer connection to real human's who grew up without their fathers.

To me, the fact that she actually has a father does a few things: makes her much more relatable to real humans. Everyone human being on Earth has a biological father and a mother. You do, I do, President Obama does, and now Wonder Woman does. She also now has more siblings that she wasn't aware of. This detail is showing that Wonder Woman is a very real person, and it goes even further to show her compassion towards the half brothers and sisters she has, but never knew.

Sorry to sound like a prick, I'm really trying not to be. I just don't understand the complaining going on with the New 52 interpretation of Wonder Woman.

Win

#40 Posted by jphulk26 (1267 posts) - - Show Bio

@UltraBiel: Thats all im saying.

#41 Posted by Kratesis (4266 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26: So your solution is to spend money on advertising her book? That's a cosmetic solution, it will bring in short term readers for a short period. But it won't change the fundamental problems the character had.

#42 Posted by jphulk26 (1267 posts) - - Show Bio

@Kratesis: How. Come on, how can we know that with out them trying? Can you tell me what you didn´t get about her origin? Please, cause I don´t see how its confusing at all. I mean I don´t like Aquaman and Antman, I don´t get them, but I don´t find their origin confusing at all. It´s pretty straight forward, its just not cool. So please let me know what confuses you and how Azzerrello has solved it, cause I think his new origin is very confusing and quite frankly kind of stupid. Could it be you find it confusing cause you haven´t read it. I find the story of The Wire confusing, when i hear about it from second parties, that doesn´t mean it actually is.

#43 Posted by Kratesis (4266 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

@Kratesis: How. Come on, how can we know that with out them trying? Can you tell me what you didn´t get about her origin? Please, cause I don´t see how its confusing at all. I mean I don´t like Aquaman and Antman, I don´t get them, but I don´t find their origin confusing at all. It´s pretty straight forward, its just not cool. So please let me know what confuses you and how Azzerrello has solved it, cause I think his new origin is very confusing and quite frankly kind of stupid.

Could it be you find it confusing cause you haven´t read it.

I'm not going to respond to you if you continue to insult me, and continue implying I am a liar. That is completely uncalled for, and trying to 'sneak' it in there is not cool.

I find the story of The Wire confusing, when i hear about it from second parties, that doesn´t mean it actually is.

#44 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@OutlawRenegade:

even other females that sell way less had a movie like elektra,supergirl,the movies did poorly in box office becaus they were bad so nothing happened,but if it's done right it can improve comic sales,like thor,he wasn't selling good some years ago and his movie improved his comic sales the same for captain america,even black widow has a brighter future as a character thank to be exposed in avengers movie,so nobody can say that wonder woman doesn't have more promotion and marketing because she doesn't sell,because that's not the case.

we can also see examples in the japanese work,DBZ and sailor moon weren't best seller worldwide until they had their animated show based on the books,so there are a lot of examples where the proper marketing was able to improve the sales of the books,that can work for wonder woman,try and see what happens,only then someone can tell which is the real reason to not marketing her,but until they do it and fail,we'll never know,i already named examples of how the right marketing in movies and TV helped to improve sales for some comics,so until they do the same for wonder woman and see what happen,we won't know if it can work for her too or not.

#45 Posted by OutlawRenegade (1236 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior said:

@OutlawRenegade:

even other females that sell way less had a movie like elektra,supergirl,the movies did poorly in box office becaus they were bad so nothing happened,but if it's done right it can improve comic sales,like thor,he wasn't selling good some years ago and his movie improved his comic sales the same for captain america,even black widow has a brighter future as a character thank to be exposed in avengers movie,so nobody can say that wonder woman doesn't have more promotion and marketing because she doesn't sell,because that's not the case.

we can also see examples in the japanese work,DBZ and sailor moon weren't best seller worldwide until they had their animated show based on the books,so there are a lot of examples where the proper marketing was able to improve the sales of the books,that can work for wonder woman,try and see what happens,only then someone can tell which is the real reason to not marketing her,but until they do it and fail,we'll never know,i already named examples of how the right marketing in movies and TV helped to improve sales for some comics,so until they do the same for wonder woman and see what happen,we won't know if it can work for her too or not.

Why did you address that to me?

#46 Posted by jphulk26 (1267 posts) - - Show Bio

@Kratesis: I´m sorry to upset you I wasn´t trying to insult you, I´m just trying to win a debate, sometimes you have to pull out some dirty tactics :) seriously don´t take it like that.

#47 Posted by kapitein_zeppos (341 posts) - - Show Bio

@GhettoBond said:

Also, I don't understand your feminist argument. The billionaire comparison actually doesn't apply. Biologically, everyone has a mother and a father. Azzerrello is simply saying that he doesn't know anyone that doesn't have a male and a female parent. Wonder Woman has a biological father now, but it does not mean she was raised by a man. Azzerrello said it himself: Diana is no different, her environment is. Whether she was born of clay or of a sexual encounter with a man and a woman doesn't change the fact that she was not raised by a man. She was raised by women, and became a perfectly capable strong, well rounded and noble child. Just because sperm and an egg were involved doesn't change that. If anything, it should make her more relatable because she's got a closer connection to real human's who grew up without their fathers.

To me, the fact that she actually has a father does a few things: makes her much more relatable to real humans. Everyone human being on Earth has a biological father and a mother. You do, I do, President Obama does, and now Wonder Woman does. She also now has more siblings that she wasn't aware of. This detail is showing that Wonder Woman is a very real person, and it goes even further to show her compassion towards the half brothers and sisters she has, but never knew.

Sorry to sound like a prick, I'm really trying not to be. I just don't understand the complaining going on with the New 52 interpretation of Wonder Woman.

Classic Diana may have been a bit too square at times, I'll grant that much. If you have a character who is presented as a virtuous paragon, you should put that character before serious problems that challenge their values, their outlook and force them to make uneasy choices, that's why Wonder Woman is more interesting than your average 90's "too cool for comics" Liefeld-inspired gun-toting maniac who has zero compunctions about gory mass murder. "Captain Carnage" may register very high on the cool chart, and blowing somebody's face off is very sexy to some people, but the story value is nil.

Another problem I have with the current story line is that they did give her a daddy, then it was revealed that the Amazons were all jerks, both to Diana, hating her guts for being different and the outside world, her own mother lied to her and it wasn't Amazon training that made her Wonder Woman, it was uncle Ares Azzarello really took us back to square one when it comes to Greek myth and the Amazonomachy. Amazons are unnatural, suck at everything because they are inferior women who dare to display superior male characteristics and are meant to be beaten into some sense by the first red-blooded male hero that comes along. Their only saving grace being a tragic death.

I'm not saying the Perez hopelessly perfect Amazon island was great either, but I think one might come up with something better than just dragging Wonder Woman back to 378 BC and try to do the same stories the Ancient Greek were better at than you'll ever be.

My take is that Diana should be a paragon, do something original with the Greek gods rather than turn them into a big soap opera full of hateful characters.

Also I am not convinced that having a daddy is that important, any good character will benefit from a good parental figure, male or female and they don't need to be biologically related (Data and Dr Soong is a good example)

I'm not convinced that Wonder Woman is broken, she just needs good stories, good villains, character development and stories that make the top ten of all time best comics. Wonder Woman needs her Dark Knight, her Phoenix Saga, Gwen Stacy's death, her epic struggle and mindblowing story where after which every girl will want to be Wonder Woman and every guy want to be with her, She needs that comic that you can use in any post whenever some troll says that WW sucks because she wears a bathing suit. She has quite a few goods ones, a bunch of great ones, but she needs a legendary one. I don't think relatable is the magic word that will create such a comic ...

#48 Posted by Dernman (14047 posts) - - Show Bio

SMH at people being upset at her having a father for feminism reasons. I have heard the arguments over and over an none make any sense.

#49 Posted by Lvenger (16075 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

@Kratesis: I´m sorry to upset you I wasn´t trying to insult you, I´m just trying to win a debate, sometimes you have to pull out some dirty tactics :) seriously don´t take it like that.

You don't win debates by dirty tactics. You win debates by making stronger points supported by better reasoning. And so far Kratesis has you beat in that regard by a mile.

#50 Edited by jphulk26 (1267 posts) - - Show Bio

: @Lvenger: If you say so. But maybe you should follow your own mantra, and actually explain how that is the case. I stand by everything I´ve said, I apologised out of politeness because I wish to offend no one, but I´m still of the belief that anyone who has read recently Gre Rucka, Gail Simone or even Jimenz´s run on Wonder Woman can feel that Azzerrello hasn´t fundementally changed and distorted the character for the worse. But I have not seen any evidence that anyone has read both and compared. Quite frankly Lvenger, I´ve been have shown evidence in figures that WW real problem is poor marketing and a confused rather than consistent approach with the character. I´ve respected everyones thoughts and come back with strong arguments of my own. so really it makes no difference to me who you think has won. Its not about winning, I want all WW fans to win.

@kapitein_zeppos: @OutlawRenegade:

@Kratesis: I shouldn´t have called you a liar, but I also should have stood by what I said. I said I was using dirty tactics as a joke just to lighten things up, but really I was just trying to see what you´d say, if you could show me evidence that you were familioar with past runs. But calling you a liar is a bit strong.

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