Amazon and other changes in New 52 Wonder Woman

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#1 Posted by x_29 (2274 posts) - - Show Bio

I have noticed the rage certain fans have over the revelation of a dark attribute to the mythos of the amazons in issue 7. What are your opinions on the changes to Wonder Woman in this new universe?

#2 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (11314 posts) - - Show Bio

Gold > Silver.

#3 Posted by hectorsquall (1137 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow! That's way worse than death by snu snu IMO! But it makes sense and it makes for some really interesting stories in the future. Personally I'm really stoked for the next issues.

#4 Posted by Crimson_Butterfly (33 posts) - - Show Bio

The only thing that bothers me is that she lost the abiltiy to fly and some of the character designs is not Godly.

#5 Posted by kapitein_zeppos (341 posts) - - Show Bio

It's a very mixed bag for me so far; some great ideas, some really bad ideas. I like some of the Gods concepts, but others just don't feel quite right.

But as is now tradition the Amazons have yet again been handed the poo end of the stick, as they have been for the last 25-odd years (destroyed, banished, turned into homicidal maniacs ...)

#6 Posted by RazzaTazz (9577 posts) - - Show Bio

I was not so impressed by the redesign of Hades

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#7 Posted by Billy Batson (57916 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz:

What did you think of Wonder Woman #7?
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#8 Posted by RazzaTazz (9577 posts) - - Show Bio
@Billy Batson: Haven't read it yet
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#9 Posted by Billy Batson (57916 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz:

Oh, no wonder since you haven't made a review/blog about it.
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#10 Posted by RazzaTazz (9577 posts) - - Show Bio
@Billy Batson: I will probably get to it today.
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#11 Posted by BloodTalon (430 posts) - - Show Bio

I am personally loving the new WW, the story has been great so far. I must say that there are 2 things that I am not thrilled with 1. some of the Gods appearances like Hades, Poseidon and Hermes but if I remember correctly in real Greek mythology the Greek Gods changed form lots of times so this has not diminished my enjoyment. 2. I did like WW's old origin better it was unique to a certain degree where as this new altho I do not hate it, it is a little run of the mill. All other changes have been fine.

#12 Posted by Lvenger (19105 posts) - - Show Bio

I think one of the main problems that WW fans have now is that instead of a race of women dedicated to spreading peace and love amongst other good thing, the Amazons have now become a tribe of sirens that have their way with men to have more children and exchange the male children for weapons from Hephaeustus. That's caused quite an uproar as it's a radical change from the original origin. Having said that, I do like the direction WW is going as the horror-fantasy genre mix is very cool and Wonder Woman feels more relevant than she has for a long time.

#13 Posted by DEGRAAF (7875 posts) - - Show Bio

@Crimson_Butterfly said:

The only thing that bothers me is that she lost the abiltiy to fly and some of the character designs is not Godly.

I was curious about this in the new JL preview. It looked like she was being carried rather then flying. So she can no longer fly? What other powers has she lost or have been weakened?

#14 Posted by Crimson_Butterfly (33 posts) - - Show Bio

@DEGRAAF said:

@Crimson_Butterfly said:

The only thing that bothers me is that she lost the abiltiy to fly and some of the character designs is not Godly.

I was curious about this in the new JL preview. It looked like she was being carried rather then flying. So she can no longer fly? What other powers has she lost or have been weakened?

Sadly they dont want her to be a superman clone so they remove her flight Im not sure I havent seen her using superspeed.

#15 Edited by WDW (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

@DEGRAAF said:

@Crimson_Butterfly said:

The only thing that bothers me is that she lost the abiltiy to fly and some of the character designs is not Godly.

I was curious about this in the new JL preview. It looked like she was being carried rather then flying. So she can no longer fly? What other powers has she lost or have been weakened?

Sadly they dont want her to be a superman clone so they remove her flight Im not sure I havent seen her using superspeed.

Wonder Woman can jump and hover (walk on water) but she can not outright fly like superman. In my Opinion is a very welcome improvment for the character. This way writers can highlight her ground fighting and warrior skills, which is often talked about but RARELY seen in any pre 52 Wonder Woman comics. Wonder Woman new 52 #1 was a nice breath of fresh air which showed us some of Wonder Womans much unseen fighting skills without her relying on flight.

Flight for wonder woman has never really been an advantage and has primarily been used for travel. Taking away her ability to fly does not weaken her it just shows how much more agile she can be. FYI Pre-Crisis Wonder Woman also could not fly hence the invisible jet

Wonder Woman still has superspeed as evidenced in WW#3 with regard to combat and combat travel..... I am sure she can not turn on a dime like the flash and superman(she never had the ability to do that) and I am glad.

This verison of Wonder Woman is very balanced with regard to her power set.

#16 Edited by DEGRAAF (7875 posts) - - Show Bio

@Crimson_Butterfly: @WDW: Yea i actually liker this version better they should focus more on her skill than her superpowers. If you lump her in with other known Demi-gods from Greek and/or Roman myth i dont think any Demi-god had the power of self flight. I think and hope they keep her powers to speed, strength and intellect (if you can consider that one of them). I like the thought of them focusing on her life time of training. Hell give her Pegasus if they want her to fly.

#17 Posted by RyuHayabusa (2019 posts) - - Show Bio

@WDW said:

Flight for wonder woman has never really been an advantage and has primarily been used for travel. Taking away her ability to fly does not weaken her it just shows how much more agile she can be. FYI Pre-Crisis Wonder Woman also could not fly hence the invisible jet

#18 Posted by DEGRAAF (7875 posts) - - Show Bio

@RyuHayabusa: Whats with the scans?

#19 Posted by RyuHayabusa (2019 posts) - - Show Bio

@DEGRAAF said:

@RyuHayabusa: Whats with the scans?

Flight+ izuna drop :P

#20 Posted by Or35ti (1101 posts) - - Show Bio

@Crimson_Butterfly said:

The only thing that bothers me is that she lost the abiltiy to fly and some of the character designs is not Godly.

She lost her ability to fly?! when? I could've sworn she was flying when I read that preview of her fighting that octopus Poseidon or something...

#21 Posted by WDW (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

@RyuHayabusa said:

@WDW said:

Flight for wonder woman has never really been an advantage and has primarily been used for travel. Taking away her ability to fly does not weaken her it just shows how much more agile she can be. FYI Pre-Crisis Wonder Woman also could not fly hence the invisible jet

Exactly non of this really ads value to the character Wonder Woman fighting in space? leave that to superman. she cant even breath in space for long its better for her to thrash someone on land rather then pushing them into space ala superman

#22 Edited by RyuHayabusa (2019 posts) - - Show Bio

@WDW said:

@RyuHayabusa said:

@WDW said:

Flight for wonder woman has never really been an advantage and has primarily been used for travel. Taking away her ability to fly does not weaken her it just shows how much more agile she can be. FYI Pre-Crisis Wonder Woman also could not fly hence the invisible jet

Exactly non of this really ads value to the character Wonder Woman fighting in space? leave that to superman. she cant even breath in space for long its better for her to thrash someone on land rather then pushing them into space ala superman

Flight has nothing to do with her fighting skills. If writer wants to write her as skilled fighter he will do it.

Wonder Woman is super-human, she should be able to survive long enough to finish the fight and it looks awesome.That looks way better than most of her battles on land. Who says someone with flight can't be agile? Invisible jet was one of the most stupid things in history of comic book.

#23 Edited by WDW (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

@RyuHayabusa said:

Flight has nothing to do with her fighting skills.

Exactly my point when wonder woman writers depict her using flight to defeat her enemies like in your scans instead of using fighting skills and agility it takes away from her fighting abilities.

If writer wants to write her as skilled fighter he will do it.

Again my point one writer will write her as a skilled fighter and others will focus more on her needed to rely on superman tactics to win a fight. By removing or reducing her flight abilites writers are forced to develop her niche ability which is fighting skills. The only time a Wonder Woman comics really displayed her fighting ability is when she loses her other powers. The following scans would not work if wonder woman had full flight abilities. This is wonder womans style her nich no other heavy hitter moves like her.

Wonder Woman is super-human, she should be able to survive long enough to finish the fight and it looks awesome

But why does she need to fly her enemies into space to win? isnt her fighting skills enough?.... because it "looks" awesome is your opinion. I am sure if we added flight abilities to Wolverine and spiderman it would look equally awesome but does it make sense or take away from the characters core abilities.

Who says someone with flight can't be agile?

Nobody. However, for example, what is the point of learning how to do a back flip if you can out right fly? and if you can out right fly and still do a back flip how much of your flight abilities does your back flip use? how much skill does it involve? I cant do a back flip on earth but I can certainly do one in space and much much more. The ability to ignore gravity and thus fly pretty much negates a supeheros claim to actual skill and muscle based agility over someone who can not fly. Agility uses muscle coordination flight does not use any muscle coordination. sure Wonder Woman can have both but the idea will always be there that the flight ability makes her agile not actual skill learned as an amazon.

Invisible jet was one of the most stupid things in history of comic book.

Thats because its called the invisible jet but every time I see it being used in the justice league animated movies its cool.

Anway the authors of the new 52 seem to share my sentiment about Wonder Woman and outfight flying so they got rid of it.... for the better so she is more in line with actual amazons

#24 Posted by RyuHayabusa (2019 posts) - - Show Bio

@WDW said:

@RyuHayabusa said:

Flight has nothing to do with her fighting skills.

Exactly my point when when wonder woman writers depict her using flight to defeat her enemies like in your scans instead of using fighting skills and agility it takes away from her fighting abilities.

Wonder Woman is going to mid tier fighter with or without her powers. She act like as if she was top tier fighter or something. Wonder Woman used her fighting skills in air combat and it looked cool.

If writer wants to write her as skilled fighter he will do it.

Again my point one writer will write her as a skilled fighter and others will focus more on her needed to rely on superman tactics to win a fight. By removing or reducing her flight abilites writers are forced to develop her nich ability which is fighting skills. The only time a Wonder Woman comics really displayed her fighting ability is when she loses her other powers. The following scans would not work if wonder woman had full flight abilities. This is wonder womans style her nich no other heavy hitter moves like her.

A good fighter should be able to beat 1 or 2 people who are equally strong and fast. Centaurs are canon fodders, that hardly shows her fighting ability. You might be right, no heavy hitter moves like her but dodging sword doesn't show her agility. Izuna drop is still way better than head butt.

Wonder Woman is super-human, she should be able to survive long enough to finish the fight and it looks awesome

But why does she need to fly her enemies into space to win? isnt her fighting skills enough?.... because it "looks" awesome is your opinion. I am sure if we added flight abilities to Wolverine and spiderman it would look equally awesome but does it make sense or take away from the characters core abilities.

What is she gonna do if her enemy can fly? Why are you even trying to compare her to wolverine and spider-man? they are different characters. She is not going to become top tier fighter without her powers.

Who says someone with flight can't be agile?

Nobody. However, for example, what is the point of learning how to do a back flip if you can out right fly? and if you can out right fly and still do a back flip how much of your flight abilities does your back flip use? how much skill does it involve? I cant do a back flip on earth but I can certainly do one in space and much much more. The ability to ignore gravity and thus fly pretty much negates a supeheros claim to actual skill and muscle based agility over someone who can not fly. Agility uses muscle coordination flight does not use any muscle coordination. sure Wonder Woman can have both but the idea will always be there that the flight ability makes her agile not actual skill learned as an amazon.

Having ability to fly and skill to perform certain moves is way better than just doing circus moves. You can't even move a muscle in space if you can't fly. You want wonder woman to struggle with gravity? That doesn't make any sense.

Invisible jet was one of the most stupid things in history of comic book.

Thats because its called the invisible jet but every time I see it being used in the justice league animated movies its cool.

Anway the authors of the new 52 seem to share my sentiment about Wonder Woman and outfight flying so they got rid of it.... for the better so she is more in line with actual amazons

more like Xena :P

#25 Posted by WDW (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

@RyuHayabusa said:

Wonder Woman is going to mid tier fighter with or without her powers. She act like as if she was top tier fighter or something. Wonder Woman used her fighting skills in air combat and it looked cool.

I am not sure what your criteria for mid tier fighter VS top tier fighter is but in Wonder Woman canon she is supposed to be top tier.

A good fighter should be able to beat 1 or 2 people who are equally strong and fast. Centaurs are canon fodders, that hardly shows her fighting ability. You might be right, no heavy hitter moves like her but dodging sword doesn't show her agility. Izuna drop is still way better than head butt.

That really does not make sense. pretty much all superheros have beaten 1 or 2 people who are equally strong and fast....Superman vs Doomsday Flash vs Zoom Wonder Woman vs Powergirl,Cheeta other kryptonians batman vs bane and the list goes on. Its how they did it that determines there fighting ability. Wonder Woman flying someone like cheetah into space to beat her is not as impreessive as out fighting her on the ground. ...... Superman is not a great fighter no matter how many people of similar strength and speed he beats

Wonder Woman is always going to beat a centaur the fact that she did it without using her super strength lasso or super speed is what makes her a great fighter. Can superman without his powers do the same? could flash? Power girl? any other superhero besides batman and other pure martial artists?

What is she gonna do if her enemy can fly?

The same thing all other superheros do in that situation deal with it. and in so doing show off her abilities as a warrior. Thats like saying batman can not deal with flying enemies. He finds a way.... or the writer does :P

Why are you even trying to compare her to wolverine and spider-man?

Because you said wonder woman looks cool flying I said so would wolverine and spiderman but it woulld take away from there other core abilities ( was being sarcastic)

She is not going to become top tier fighter without her powers

Well At this point I am not sure if you even read wonder woman comics At ALL :P Wonder Woman has lost her powers a few times and is still an EXTREMELY good fighter. The fact that she can still block bullets without her powers is a testiment to that. She is so good she is also able to fight extremely well even moments after being blinded..... IN fact Wonder Woman is the ONLY superhero in DC comics and probably marvel who could still be considered superhero calibier even if she lost all her superhuman powers based on her training and fighting ability alone. Wonder Woman without powers is certainly top tier. If you are not a regular wonder woman comic book collector then you probably dont know any of that.

Having ability to fly and skill to perform certain moves is way better than just doing circus moves.

I already explained why its better to have one or the other but not both because they cancels each other out.... if someone can FLY (defy gravity at will) they will have NO USE for any kind of "circus move" and vice versa

You can't even move a muscle in space if you can't fly.

So how did the astronauts move around?

You want wonder woman to struggle with gravity? That doesn't make any sense.

Have you heard the term what goes up must come down? everything with mass is effected by gravity..... Did I use the word struggle? maybe thats the wrong word to use. I want Wonder Woman ability to actively defy gravity indefinitely

reduced. which the writers of the new Wonder Woman reboot have done... Thank you

more like Xena :P

Exactly more like Xena and the original version of Wonder Woman pre crisis. Way more exciting then a superman clone.

#26 Posted by RyuHayabusa (2019 posts) - - Show Bio

@WDW: Wonder Woman hasn't done anything to say she is top tier fighter. She is mid tier.

Batman can beat 2 or 3 people equally strong and fast at same, Wonder Woman can't do that. According to you Wonder Woman would look good fighting on ground every time?

Yes Wonder Woman did beat those centaurs without much problem. Those Centaurs were canon fodders not some elite fighters and they were no match for Wonder Woman.

No one said about superman, flash or powergirl being great fighters. Shiva , Cassandra, WC , Batman, BT and Richard Dragon are top tier martial artists and Wonder Woman isn't on their level.

You want Wonder Woman to win because of plot device or writer wants her to win? Wonder Woman is more than a warrior, she was born with divine powers and she not an average amazon.

Wolverine and Spider-man doesn't have anything to do with Wonder Woman. They have different powers and they are street level characters.

Wonder Woman didn't beat any skilled fighter without her powers. Just because you can throw a punch doesn't mean you are top tier. Wonder Woman can barely beat 2 beings of equal power.

2 powers do not cancel each other, If Writer wants Wonder Woman to be skilled fighter then he will show her as such if he doesn't want to use her fighting ability then there is nothing you can do.

Wonder Woman is not superman clone, Wonder Woman doesn't have heat vision, Cold Breath and other powers of Superman.

#27 Posted by Crimson_Butterfly (33 posts) - - Show Bio

@Or35ti said:

@Crimson_Butterfly said:

The only thing that bothers me is that she lost the abiltiy to fly and some of the character designs is not Godly.

She lost her ability to fly?! when? I could've sworn she was flying when I read that preview of her fighting that octopus Poseidon or something...

Yet in Justice League she's being carried by Hal with his ring.

#28 Edited by WDW (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

@RyuHayabusa:

Batman can beat 2 or 3 people equally strong and fast at same, Wonder Woman can't do that. According to you Wonder Woman would look good fighting on ground every time?

When has batman beaten 2 or 3 equally strong and fast opponents as himself at the same time? Please post a scan or give an example because you are certainly exaggerating his abilities. Standard nameless ninjas and other such martial arts characters are just as canon fodder for batman as centaurs are for Wonder Woman

Yes Wonder Woman did beat those centaurs without much problem. Those Centaurs were canon fodders not some elite fighters and they were no match for Wonder Woman.

Please post scans of Batman beating 3 elite fighters at the same time

Batman could not even KO Artemis. A normal amazon without resorting to a tranquilizer from his utility belt and was almost killed by 2 amazons but was saved my superman.

You want Wonder Woman to win because of plot device or writer wants her to win? Wonder Woman is more than a warrior, she was born with divine powers and she not an average amazon.

Wonder Woman and Amazons combat speed like all trained fighters is directly related to there fighting and trained ability. Just like how Shivas Richard Dragon abilities come from training they are not born with them. Wonder Woman would not be able to block bullets unless she was trained to do so. Some not ALL“NORMAL” Amazons like Artemis can also block bullets NOT because she was born with the ability but because she was TRAINED. Another example which speaks to Amazon training is when a NORMAL canon fodder amazon archer was blinded in combat. However she was still able to shoot arrows as accurately as green arrow blind minutes after being blinded that’s not something she is born with. A similar event happened to Wonder Woman. She was actually blind for like 6 issues and it pretty much did not affect her fighting ability. She was not BORN with that ability it is something she learned

By your definition of great fighers people like Richard dragon and Shiva must beat 2 or 3 equally strong and fast opponents as themselves which they cannot do. It’s like saying Richard Dragon #1 can beat Richard Dragon# #2 ,#3, and #4 at the same time. Any time you have any superhero beating 2 or 3 characters at the same time they are by definition canon fodder to said superhero. It’s all relative.

Wolverine and Spider-man doesn't have anything to do with Wonder Woman. They have different powers and they are street level characters

The reason why I bring them up is because like them Wonder Woman, they have no business flying. Wonder Woman is a trained Amazon Warrior and Daughter of Zeus. Amazons cannot fly neither can any of Zeus’s many sons and daughters fly including Heracles! So why does Wonder Woman need to fly like superman? Whats in Amazons genes or Zeus’s divine genes that makes her fly…. It’s like Spiderman being bit by a radioactive spider and gaining the ability to fly in addition to his other abilities. There is no connection what so ever. And the Writers of the NEW 52 know that.

Wonder Woman didn't beat any skilled fighter without her powers. Just because you can throw a punch doesn't mean you are top tier. Wonder Woman can barely beat 2 beings of equal power.

Wonder Woman certainly does much more then throw punches. And Wonder Woman never LOST to any “Skilled fighters” by skilled fighters you are referring to martial artists. One thing that nobody really realizes or thinks about is that virtually all the top fighters in the DC universe come from or have been merged with official BATMAN history/canon. If you combine batman comics and all there various spinoffs , birds of prey batgirl ETC ETC most if not all major feats done by the so called top 15-20 of DC comic book fighters took place in that world (“The BATMAN UNIVERSE”)

In essence batman is hogging all the “skilled fighters” and all the feats are contained within they are RARELY seen outside of the (BAT UNIVERSE)

Wonder Woman and in fact all AMAZONS will never ever be in a position in which they would take on the so called top fighters in the DC universe because they are all isolated in the BAT UNIVERSE Wonder Woman RARELY is written into or crossed over into the “Bat universe” That is pretty much the point of this argument. And why we can only speculate. If Amazons routinely engaged the top fighters then we would not even be having this conversation.

The best we can do is imagine since the writers will never allow a situation where the top DC universe fighters (who are isolated in the BAT UNIVERSE) would have to engage an Amazon or any other being outside there core martial arts abilities.

The closest we get to a fight between Batman and someone outside his UNIVERSE is when he confronted Artemis a normal Amazon and could not take her down without resorting to a plot device. Another instance is when 2 canon fodder amazons got the drop on batman and superman saved him. One more is when Black Canary was knocked out by a single canon fodder Amazon.

We also have plenty of dialog from black canary about how great a fighter Wonder Woman is She says QUOTE “I love watching wonder woman fight more so then the other heavy hitters because she knows just where to hit her opponent to do the most damage”

And we also have a sparring match with Wonder Woman and black canary where Canary gives additional clues as to where Wonder Woman would rank if she did not have her powers.

Also

To if you take hero’s like Achilles (BRAD PITT MOVIE VERSION)who is considered the greatest warrior of all time (Wonder Woman has beaten him when he was on the same strength level as her) and Beowulf another one of the greatest warriors of all time (Wonder Woman has beaten him without powers) XENA TYPE CHARACTERS and the Amazons considered to be extremely good warriors…. And try to compare them to the 10 fighters in the “Batman universe” people get confused because these warriors are NOT martial artists. How would BRAD PIT movie Achilles far against Batman? How would XENA do against Black Canary (no canary cry) can Beowulf beat WildCat?

2 powers do not cancel each other, If Writer wants Wonder Woman to be skilled fighter then he will show her as such if he doesn't want to use her fighting ability then there is nothing you can do.

Let me ask you a question if Batman could out right fly/ defy gravity at will would you still think of him as a highly agile hand to hand fighter? Just a question because we simply have a fundamental difference of opinion here.

I am going to post some reference scans Through out the day as I dig them up

Just a sparring match Wonder Woman is obviously not using her powers at all aside from her Amazon abilities. Same exact thing she does when sparring with her amazon sisters. If Diana was not a great fighter why would she be teaching Black Canary to fight with a STAFF?
Wonder Woman beats/subdues Power girl pretty easily. Power girls fighting abilities is not near Wonder Womans but some of the dialog also suggests Wonder Womans fighting ability is way above simple mid level.
A "canon fodder" amazon getting the better of Batman batman is saved by superman who through something at the amazon.
Fighting Blind
Wonder Woman fighting BLIND Note: Amazons and Wonder woman DO NOT have super hearing This is a skill she mastered being a trained amazon warrior and has nothing to do with her powerset this is pure skill Even Superman can not fight blind even with super hearing he admitted as much to Wonder Woman. None of the DC universe 10 ten martial artists can do this as far as I know
More Dialog evidence. This one pretty much proves her ability to block bullets is more skill based then speed. Giving more credence to her fighting ability
Batman Quote by it self is not 100% proof of her fighting ability but it certainly is more evidence of it
Wonder Woman NO POWERS trashing a mob (although canon fodder)... still fast enough to block bullets while engaged in active combat she is fighting over 50 people powerless not going to post the whole sequence of scans
BATMAN PLOT DEVICE

These are all indirect methods to compare Wonder Womans fighting abilities to what you consider to be the great fighters.

Honestly is does not even matter if she is a mid level or a low level compared to the Batman universe DC 10 ten.... The fact is that she is a warrior with many talents outside the normal heavy hitters like superman. Wonder Woman uses weapons skill and tactics to win none of the other heavy hitters really do that...Whats the point of having her constantly rely on flight to win battles. Whats the point of giving her flight if she can do so much without it.

I can see why you would want flight but I simply disagree that wonder woman is better off with it

Anyway this conversation is getting old lets just agree to disagree I will read your last response in fairness so you don't think you wasted your time if you are compelled to reply.

Bottom line I think its cool they reduced Wonder Womans flying ability. She can still hover and apparently walk on water but for now it seems she can not fly. In my opinion this will help Wonder Woman writers develop a solid and credible fighting style that ONLYWonder Woman can do making it hers alone. Maybe the new 52 will be more of an open world and allow situations where strict martial artists are allowed to fight a variety of other warrior types that do not only rely on martial arts.

#29 Posted by RyuHayabusa (2019 posts) - - Show Bio

@WDW: Batman has beaten trained Man-bats, whoa re stronger than humans. Batman has beaten venom enhanced thugs who are also stronger than humans.

Centaurs are not as strong as Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman is far more powerful than those centaurs. Batman has also blocked bullet with his hand.

I never liked the idea "daughter of zeus". Wonder Woman beat her opponents because of her powers not fighting skill and her enemies aren't skilled in fighting. at best they are mid-tier fighters.

Wonder Woman deflected bullets because of her speed without powers she cannot deflect multiple bullets. Without flight she is just going to be mediocre fighter and her fighting skills are no where near Batman. Black canary is close to Batman's level and PG is barely mid tier. Batman beats powerful enemies via prep and Wonder Woman isn't on Batman's level in that department.

Wonder Woman has used fighting moves combined with her power of flight and she did well. Wonder Woman is not going to be on Batman's level when it comes to fighting skill.

#30 Posted by WDW (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

@RyuHayabusa said:

@WDW: Batman has beaten trained Man-bats, whoa re stronger than humans. Batman has beaten venom enhanced thugs who are also stronger than humans.

Centaurs are not as strong as Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman is far more powerful than those centaurs. Batman has also blocked bullet with his hand.

I never liked the idea "daughter of zeus". Wonder Woman beat her opponents because of her powers not fighting skill and her enemies aren't skilled in fighting. at best they are mid-tier fighters.

Wonder Woman deflected bullets because of her speed without powers she cannot deflect multiple bullets. Without flight she is just going to be mediocre fighter and her fighting skills are no where near Batman. Black canary is close to Batman's level and PG is barely mid tier. Batman beats powerful enemies via prep and Wonder Woman isn't on Batman's level in that department.

Wonder Woman has used fighting moves combined with her power of flight and she did well. Wonder Woman is not going to be on Batman's level when it comes to fighting skill.

Like I said I would read your last post...Much of it ignores the mountain of evidence to the contrary to where you think Wonder Womans abilities as a fighter are. and completely ignore the fact that Artemis and standard amazons have gotten the drop on Batman. I also have other scans of Wonder Woman powerless defeating beings Way more powerful then her. I just did not post them since they are at home and I am at work. (I will post them in a few hours)

Man BAT? man Bats are elite fighters? An amazon can defeat a MAN BAT EASY normal Amazons are tasked with guarding the daemons and monsters of Tarturus a MAN bat is child's play for an Amazon they are canon fodder. Hippolyta, Wonder Womans mother defeated Hercules in single combat and amazons are only considered peak human strength The Amazons Stood-up to and stalemated Darksieds army of para demons. Wonder Woman out fought and nearly decapitated superman during there scuffle and the list goes on and on Wonder Woman has defeated Powergirl Supergirl other Kryptonians

Wonder Woman is not going to be on Batman's level when it comes to fighting skill.

yet we clearly see Batman needing to use drugs to knock out Artemis in order to beat her and we also see batman laid low by a nameless amazon needing superman to rescue him. seriously I know you are going to stick to your guns on this but your evidence and claims do not support it. Are Batman abilities honed enough where he can fight blind?

anyway it does not matter I think I made my point and this is starting to turn into a battle thread.

The NEW 52 Wonder Womans powerset is better than the old for the reasons I have stated already.

#31 Edited by RyuHayabusa (2019 posts) - - Show Bio

@WDW said:

@RyuHayabusa said:

@WDW: Batman has beaten trained Man-bats, whoa re stronger than humans. Batman has beaten venom enhanced thugs who are also stronger than humans.

Centaurs are not as strong as Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman is far more powerful than those centaurs. Batman has also blocked bullet with his hand.

I never liked the idea "daughter of zeus". Wonder Woman beat her opponents because of her powers not fighting skill and her enemies aren't skilled in fighting. at best they are mid-tier fighters.

Wonder Woman deflected bullets because of her speed without powers she cannot deflect multiple bullets. Without flight she is just going to be mediocre fighter and her fighting skills are no where near Batman. Black canary is close to Batman's level and PG is barely mid tier. Batman beats powerful enemies via prep and Wonder Woman isn't on Batman's level in that department.

Wonder Woman has used fighting moves combined with her power of flight and she did well. Wonder Woman is not going to be on Batman's level when it comes to fighting skill.

Like I said I would read your last post...Much of it ignores the mountain of evidence to the contrary to where you think Wonder Womans abilities as a fighter are. and completely ignore the fact that Artemis and standard amazons have gotten the drop on Batman. I also have other scans of Wonder Woman powerless defeating beings Way more powerful then her. I just did not post them since they are at home and I am at work. (I will post them in a few hours)

Man BAT? man Bats are elite fighters? An amazon can defeat a MAN BAT EASY normal Amazons are tasked with guarding the daemons and monsters of Tarturus a MAN bat is child's play for an Amazon they are canon fodder. Hippolyta, Wonder Womans mother defeated Hercules in single combat and amazons are only considered peak human strength The Amazons Stood-up to and stalemated Darksieds army of para demons. Wonder Woman out fought and nearly decapitated superman during there scuffle and the list goes on and on Wonder Woman has defeated Powergirl Supergirl other Kryptonians

Wonder Woman is not going to be on Batman's level when it comes to fighting skill.

yet we clearly see Batman needing to use drugs to knock out Artemis in order to beat her and we also see batman laid low by a nameless amazon needing superman to rescue him. seriously I know you are going to stick to your guns on this but your evidence and claims do not support it. Are Batman abilities honed enough where he can fight blind?

anyway it does not matter I think I made my point and this is starting to turn into a battle thread.

The NEW 52 Wonder Womans powerset is better than the old for the reasons I have stated already.

I would love to see average amazon beating 20+ man-bats(trained by LOA) without weapons. Batman has also beaten parademons. You think Power girl is Batman's equal in fighting skill? Wonder Woman slit superman's throat with her tiara and Superman saw doomsday backhanding him, that proves nothing about fighting skill. Batman used drug to beat artemis because he had to fight more amazons, Artemis wasn't alone. In a 1vs1 fight Artemis would lose against Batman. Batman has beaten more powerful opponents in h2h. Wonder Woman struggled against someone who is equally powerful but has little to no fighting skills i.e Power Girl. Her current powerset isn't different from previous one, She doesn't have super-speed and cannot fly.

#32 Posted by 80sBaby (1343 posts) - - Show Bio

A couple of things: 1. Batman didn't beat all those ManBats via strict martial arts and he actually lost, in the end. 2. LOA ninjas, manbat or otherwise, are pretty much cannon-fodder so that's like being impressed by beating Hand ninjas. Who doesn't kick their @$$? 3. Batman can't take Artemis in purely HtH. Diana's embarassed her on more than one occasion. 4. Bruce has already proclaimed Diana as "the BEST melee fighter on the planet." That would include himself.

#33 Posted by RyuHayabusa (2019 posts) - - Show Bio

@80sBaby said:

A couple of things: 1. Batman didn't beat all those ManBats via strict martial arts and he actually lost, in the end. 2. LOA ninjas, manbat or otherwise, are pretty much cannon-fodder so that's like being impressed by beating Hand ninjas. Who doesn't kick their @$$? 3. Batman can't take Artemis in purely HtH. Diana's embarassed her on more than one occasion. 4. Bruce has already proclaimed Diana as "the BEST melee fighter on the planet." That would include himself.

1. Batman did beat most of them

2. Better than beating centaurs. Diana>>Centaurs. Man-Bat>>Batman

3. Batman has beaten better/equal fighters i,e Nobody, Bane, Ra's , Nightwing and many more.

4. WIS

#34 Posted by 80sBaby (1343 posts) - - Show Bio

1. Not straight HtH, though. 2. Proof? Have you seen what these centaurs are fully capable of? Diana didn't subdue them by strength but skill. 3. And, yet, he calls Diana the BEST. And, he's never beaten her. 4. Based on the fact that you disagree? It's not liek Diana's hth skills haven't been praised before.

#35 Posted by TAneT62 (1059 posts) - - Show Bio

@WDW: Artemis is a goddess though, goddess of the hunt, one of the 12 gods of olympus ...

#36 Posted by WDW (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

@TAneT62 said:

@WDW: Artemis is a goddess though, goddess of the hunt, one of the 12 gods of olympus ...

Nope...she is not. In Greek Mythology Artemis is the goddess of the hunt However, in comics, Artemis has always been a standard amazon with no special god powers of any kind. She is simply named after the goddess.... she is not an actual one

#37 Posted by TAneT62 (1059 posts) - - Show Bio

@WDW: Ohh now i get it, was wondering that for quite awhile ..... thx btw

#38 Posted by RyuHayabusa (2019 posts) - - Show Bio

@80sBaby said:

1. Not straight HtH, though. 2. Proof? Have you seen what these centaurs are fully capable of? Diana didn't subdue them by strength but skill. 3. And, yet, he calls Diana the BEST. And, he's never beaten her. 4. Based on the fact that you disagree? It's not liek Diana's hth skills haven't been praised before.

Batman beat them with his martial skills.

Read the book. Centaurs are weaker than Diana and Man-bats are stronger than Humans.

He calls her best fighter maybe she is among other powerhouses but it doesn't mean she is better than street-level characters.

Diana is skilled fighter but on Batman's level.

#39 Posted by RogueOracle (242 posts) - - Show Bio

At first I was a bit miffed at the changes, because the tough Amazons turned into man-killers, basically male-stereotyped feminazis. After a while, I kind of liked it. Women can commit heinous acts as well, and darkened the tone of the Amazons drastically. Still, my childhood heroes being turned into man-killers is still kind of a bummer.

Well with the the flying...? The flying is basically a trivial superhero power, many characters have it. The New 52 Wonder Woman comics are grounded in Greek mythology, so I suppose they got rid of the flight to make her seem less superhero-ey and her more daughter-of Zeus-based, maybe.

#40 Posted by jointron33 (1902 posts) - - Show Bio

@Crimson_Butterfly: ive been told she can still fly

if not, i doubt that she will still not have it after azzarello leaves

#41 Posted by jointron33 (1902 posts) - - Show Bio

Why should we weaken her? And her not flying is dumb

#42 Posted by Hatutzeraze (269 posts) - - Show Bio

Until I read this thread, I was not aware that her flight powers had been taken away. Admittedly, I haven't been reading the Justice League title. I assumed she just hadn't been using them much.

#43 Posted by sethysquare (3843 posts) - - Show Bio

@jointron33 said:

Why should we weaken her? And her not flying is dumb

Is it really? It doesn't even make a difference.

#44 Posted by wonderW (134 posts) - - Show Bio
@TAneT62: that Artemis is not a god just has the same name. she is an  Amazon.
#45 Edited by moywar700 (2775 posts) - - Show Bio

@WDW said:

@DEGRAAF said:

@Crimson_Butterfly said:

The only thing that bothers me is that she lost the abiltiy to fly and some of the character designs is not Godly.

I was curious about this in the new JL preview. It looked like she was being carried rather then flying. So she can no longer fly? What other powers has she lost or have been weakened?

Sadly they dont want her to be a superman clone so they remove her flight Im not sure I havent seen her using superspeed.

Wonder Woman can jump and hover (walk on water) but she can not outright fly like superman. In my Opinion is a very welcome improvment for the character. This way writers can highlight her ground fighting and warrior skills, which is often talked about but RARELY seen in any pre 52 Wonder Woman comics. Wonder Woman new 52 #1 was a nice breath of fresh air which showed us some of Wonder Womans much unseen fighting skills without her relying on flight.

Flight for wonder woman has never really been an advantage and has primarily been used for travel. Taking away her ability to fly does not weaken her it just shows how much more agile she can be. FYI Pre-Crisis Wonder Woman also could not fly hence the invisible jet

Wonder Woman still has superspeed as evidenced in WW#3 with regard to combat and combat travel..... I am sure she can not turn on a dime like the flash and superman(she never had the ability to do that) and I am glad.

This verison of Wonder Woman is very balanced with regard to her power set.

wonder woman can fly well

#46 Posted by wonderW (134 posts) - - Show Bio
@RyuHayabusa: Wonder Woman is one of the Best dc fighter in DCU  
Better then Batman 
#47 Posted by RyuHayabusa (2019 posts) - - Show Bio

@wonderW: Based on what? Wonder Woman had her powers in that encounter and she blitzed batman 2 times in Hiketeia.

#48 Posted by x_29 (2274 posts) - - Show Bio

The changes really do not bother me to be honest, though I can see where some upset fans are coming from as well as Azarello's reasoning. Her book is fantastic so far:)

#49 Posted by WDW (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

@RyuHayabusa said:

@wonderW: Based on what? Wonder Woman had her powers in that encounter and she blitzed batman 2 times in Hiketeia.

Yes Wonder Woman has her powers however, Wonder Woman's Fighting abilities are NOT based on her powers. Just like all the other Amazons. Even when Wonder Woman lost all her powers she is still able do things like block bullets etc.

Also anytime batman has met with an Amazon in combat he did not fair very well

#50 Edited by moywar700 (2775 posts) - - Show Bio

There are many things questions I have in mind for wonder woman. Why was she in Paris?Does she have a job? Is she still work in the building where she still spread her ideals?What happened to Steve Trevor?Where did current wonder woman learn her ideals from. It doesn't make sense to have wonder woman learn from the amazons since they killed the men.One can make an agument is that she didn't learn from them because the other amazons refer to wonder woman as the outside amazon.

Aside from that, I think the most important one is what is her long-term goal. Pre-flashpoint wonder woman was to spread peace and love.I'm curious to know, it's been 8 issues and who still haven't gotten to know.

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