Wolverine or Sabretooth? Who is in the right?

#1 Posted by CATPANEXE (9368 posts) - - Show Bio

Analyzing Wolverine's rather complicated character in study is a fairly popular subject at the time I'm posting this, and I'm finding myself involved. Recently, Wolverine and Cyclops have come to blows in a matter of point of view, and who is right or wrong on their view if either at all. It brings to mind that Wolverine himself has had a similar schism with another character more prominently, that being Victor Creed aka Sabretooth, someone whom has known Wolverine for a very long time and intimately shares many of Wolverines specific points of view, as well has personally experienced many of the same situations that Wolverine has been in. Sabretooth has been consistent to challenge Wolverines beliefs over the years, even going in excess to prove points to him, specifically the point that Wolverine is in the wrong about himself. Sabretooth believes himself to be a mass murderer, for right or wrong, and to claim to be anything more, despite evidence that one is, doesn't dismiss the fact that he is still a murderer, and often calls Wolverine into question for taking the stance that despite the fact he kills, many times for the simple reason he is emotional about something, or not in full control of his facilities, that it's justified by the fact that he also lives in other aspects of life and pursues other ventures, thereby making him something more than a psychopathic murderer, and as well excusing his own actions that put him into question of being as such. Sabretooth on his end wheres it right out on his sleeve, and doesn't believe anything else he does excuses who he is. Wolverine is seemingly not called into question by other heroes, many of him are specifically against " what he does best that isn't very nice ", and even base their opponents on the very same actions and design to stop them for the reason they are relentless killers. Weighing this very extreme ends of a spectrum I ask who is actually right in their view? Sabretooth, or Wolverine, both or neither and why would you believe so?

#2 Posted by Shadow_Thief (2509 posts) - - Show Bio

I've always liked the fact that Sabretooth embraces his base urges. He doesn't bother with rationalization, justifications, or apologies. He is what he is, and if that causes the world to label him as a monster, than a monster is what he will be.

#3 Posted by CATPANEXE (9368 posts) - - Show Bio

Personally, I didn't put my own stance because I'm divided on the issue, and think it's compelling. And I agree Shadow, on that. I find Sabretooth to be similar to Hulk in that manner, or at least how Hulk is prominently displayed. Banner nor Hulk rarely have any confusion about what he actually is, nor dismiss it. The rest of the superhero community, well that wavers from writer to writer it seems, though in classic cases while not actually despising the Hulk, heroes made no excuses for what Hulk does either nor gave him a pass on it either. I do think Sabretooth is in extremes in some parts though, particularly how he often drives directly into the void of what he is rather than balance against it, though his lack of denial on the other hand is also reasonable.

#4 Posted by RoboShark (1208 posts) - - Show Bio

Sabertooth is a great bastard. I wouldn't call Wolverine a relentless killer. The fact Wolverine has the school and has to murder in X-Force makes him a human and infinitely interesting. The cry of hypocrisy from some hasn't been thought through.

#5 Posted by fireball11 (20 posts) - - Show Bio

Well you can't call exactly the relationship between Logan and Sabretooth "schism" or " a matter of point of view". It's actually far more personal than this. Victor raped and killed Logan's wife Silver Fox the day of Logan's birthday. And that particular day every year Creed bring the hell to Logan wherever he was, for not forget. The difference between them is that Victor embraces the animal, he loves that part of himself. Logan hates this part of him most. Logan's greatest battle is against his own nature. Victor adore being a sadist killer.

#6 Edited by CATPANEXE (9368 posts) - - Show Bio

@RoboShark said:

I wouldn't call Wolverine a relentless killer.

I'm not sure I understand why not. He has been relentlessly killing people, and whatever else for what, over a hundred years? In fact this specific thing is what he dedicated him, and most of his very long life to, and was built for?

The fact Wolverine has the school and has to murder in X-Force makes him a human and infinitely interesting.

Definition of human is being a school teacher/principal/owner in addition to an active clan destine self appointed hitman? Again, I don't follow.

The cry of hypocrisy from some hasn't been thought through.

Has it from others? I'm wondering on the reasoning here given your own post actually points to the fact that he may be? Sorry to single you out, but your opinions aren't defined yet somewhat are the kinds of things I want to know from others, and why I made the thread. Like I said I'm divided myself on this, always have been.

@fireball11:

Exactly no, but I can. They were doing the same as each other at a time, and a schism formed between them due to them each embracing a different path in life and set of ideals. And I agree. Wolverine has his pros, and Sabretooth his flaws. But that's somewhat of the point I'm making, and so has Sabretooth for that matter. If I go out and kill hundreds, of not thousands of people, but then I volunteer at an old folks home on the weekend and do community service, though note, I still kill people, am I not a murderer? So yes, I also would say point view, in addition to whatever else. The fact that Sabretooth has over the years been relentless to establish his point of view as opposed to Wolverines, verbatim and in action, clearly states its there, as much as the fact that either killed people to satisfy their urges states that they kill people, and whatever other factor present doesn't erase that from being. His nature? That sounds very Halmark to me. Most of the time he choose to kill people. He didn't turn into a lycan or something and wake up the next day wondering where he was and had been. I find that a flimsy excuse. Or villains excused for their nature? Is Sabretooth? No, because the truth is they actively choose to kill people either way. Wolverines dispute with his own urges on the other hand. He still chooses to go with his urges and kill. That's not much of a fight against. Saying after the fact, why do I kill people, it may or not be wrong to oneself isn't really trying to fight against it. He does however claim to be a good guy though. Does Victor so much embrace who he chooses to be (again, the animal? but really he chooses to kill people) who he really is, and not make any compunction about who he is to anyone else. A few of the reasons I have to consider the issue. Creed actually makes a strong point and has a case to back his end as well as Wolverine does. It's personal doesn't drop what it is. Wolverine has done equally atrocious things to others, shown to more to the reader in fact. Sabretooth's actions don't define who Wolverine chose and chooses to be either, so that's a moot fallacy to claim it is.

#7 Posted by RoboShark (1208 posts) - - Show Bio

@CATPANEXE said:

@RoboShark said:

I wouldn't call Wolverine a relentless killer.

I'm not sure I understand why not. He has been relentlessly killing people, and whatever else for what, over a hundred years? In fact this specific thing is what he dedicated him, and most of his very long life to, and was built for?

The fact Wolverine has the school and has to murder in X-Force makes him a human and infinitely interesting.

Definition of human is being a school teacher/principal/owner in addition to an active clan destine self appointed hitman? Again, I don't follow.

The cry of hypocrisy from some hasn't been thought through.

Has it from others? I'm wondering on the reasoning here given your own post actually points to the fact that he may be? Sorry to single you out, but your opinions aren't defined yet somewhat are the kinds of things I want to know from others, and why I made the thread. Like I said I'm divided myself on this, always have been.

Carnage : Relentless killer.

Wolverine : Has a conscience. He and the rest of X-force all were taken back by Fantomex shooting kid apocalypse. His every thought isn't about killing.

What I meant about him being human, was that humans are contradictory by nature. He runs a school now and has a hit squad. Me I'm a pre-school teacher who also runs an abortion clinic. Yay humanity.

#8 Edited by CATPANEXE (9368 posts) - - Show Bio

@RoboShark:

I dont really follow. Carnage and Wolverine aren't the same character. But, Wolverine has been shown killing more people than Carnage for that matter. More and subjectively worse than Fantomex in that situation as well. And thinking about it. And enjoying it. And doing all of the above more than anything else on panel. I'm not lying to you when I say I've easily read over 90% of every comic Wolverines been in. Even the parodies. And that's whats shown, and established. It's even in his handbook entries and Saga books. Wolverine is an active willing and designed to be killing machine, in every sense of the word. He's literally next door to Sabretooth, which is the point of their relationship and the story. My entire thread and question has a point, and that's using the fact that Wolverine is a killer. I can say I wasn't expecting anyone to come in with " Wolverine doesn't really kill anyone " and why I'm sort of baffled.

Many heroes take the stance that even though they are thinking it even, they try not to kill. Wolverine doesn't. He's all for it. In fact it's the original appeal of character. He tears apart and kills people, which many characters, X-Men in particular didn't do at that time, and still don't. That's not much of a conscience. Nor contradictory. If he tried not to kill people, it would be. But he doesn't, and one X-Force issue against the characters entire history isn't much of a statement. His usual justification is that he kills them for good reasons. But thousands? And shown more often than not because he's just enraged and bloodlusted? Your situation presented isn't really relevant. Wolverine has been shown to kill people more often than not because he wants to, chooses to, and because he enjoys killing them. I'm not a a school teacher that runs an abortion clinic (and I would also like you to point out to me exactly who is please), so I think your view on humanity is imagined and/or based on fictional humanity rather than the real deal. I think you and I have different definitions of what a serial killer is. Mine is someone who kills many people, possibly hundreds. Wolverine constitutes in my point of view. He killed thousands, maybe more people and continues to do so on a monthly basis, daily according to his own books.

#9 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

Sabretooth keeps it real , lives like a viking and is not ashamed of hiding his primal urges. He's an alpha male who knows his way with women.

#10 Posted by Hawkeye446 (3940 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@Nerx said:

Sabretooth keeps it real , lives like a viking and is not ashamed of hiding his primal urges. He's an alpha male who knows his way with women.

Sabretooth is a sadistic. murdering rapist. He has killed many women, has declared his delight in doing so, and loves to advertise it.

That pretty much defines my opinion on how the two of them differ. I don't know about Wolverine enjoying killing - he has repeatedly stepped in to do the job to spare others from doing it, but is he a killer? Yes. He has slaughtered towns. Several times. Difference is that he feels remorse, whereas Sabretooth feels pride when innocents die at their hands. That doesn't make it okay - but it is a fundamental difference between them.

This.

#11 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: an exemplar villain who advocates how one should act in villainy, however as a predator he is living his life to the fullest at its most natural way.

#12 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

There are two sets of rules in the MU, those for Wolverine, and those for everyone else. The Punisher kills bad guys, and is a wanted criminal. Wolverine kills bad guys, and is an Avenger. 

#13 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: If rape is a grocery item, he would have plenty of it in his shopping bag. Then again some animals rape, like ducks and bonobo monkeys. I refuse to look at him from a human's point of moral good (its too biased), but rather as in an animalistic way because that is what animals do. No good, no evil just them at their natural state. Rape is just rape, used as a weapon it is a very powerful tool.

#14 Posted by _Quickster_ (1531 posts) - - Show Bio
@fireball11 said:

Well you can't call exactly the relationship between Logan and Sabretooth "schism" or " a matter of point of view". It's actually far more personal than this. Victor raped and killed Logan's wife Silver Fox the day of Logan's birthday. And that particular day every year Creed bring the hell to Logan wherever he was, for not forget. The difference between them is that Victor embraces the animal, he loves that part of himself. Logan hates this part of him most. Logan's greatest battle is against his own nature. Victor adore being a sadist killer.

My brother loved that! The find you every year on your birthday and beat you down thing. He said he was going to do that to me.


Wolverine. I just can't sympathize with a rapist, and such a remorseless one at that. When he got his head cut off, I was thinking the exact same thing Wolverine was thinking. I almost felt sorry for the poor bastard. Then I remembered his rapes and murders and I said "he'll be back anyway."

#15 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: Sabes is an honest man (lives to kill) , while i view Wolvie as a hypocrite (kills to live)

#16 Posted by BADJEREMIE (95 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine is a killer/assassin with this own code of honor or by the pass for this country like a soldier or spy .He is not a serial killer like ted bundy or ed gein maybe a mass murderer because he kill a lot of peoples but he will not kill grandpa or a little girl who just pass by the street like Sabretooth will do it just for showing of he can do it.I read myself like you CATPANEXE most of the Wolverine storie in comics or trades or novels.For Victor Creed , he is just a psychopath.

#17 Posted by WarMachineMarkV (1214 posts) - - Show Bio

- Wolverine is not called out often by the other characters as marvel does not want to take their most popular character and put him in a bad light and risk pissing off his legions of rabid fans.

- The only and most important difference between the two characters is Wolverine is the only one who actively wants to be more than his base instincts and make up for whatever things he has done in the past. That does not absolve him of all guillt but the effort speaks for itself

#18 Posted by x_29 (2274 posts) - - Show Bio

Sabertooth is one of marvels most annoying villains.

#19 Posted by TheGremlin (58 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine kills because it's his duty. Sabretooth kills because he enjoys it.

That's like comparing Audie Murphey to Jeffrey Dahlmer.

One's a hero. One's a monster.

Actions are justified by their cause.

#20 Posted by KenTheProfile (412 posts) - - Show Bio

@CATPANEXE:

where guys like Wild Bill Hikock, Doc Holliday, or Bat Masterson Villians because the fought gun men with guns? no, they were killer to be sure but had a code of honor just like Wolverine. Wolverine is trying to make up for his past.

Wolverine is like a 1/4 animal 3/4 man, Creed is a rabid animal and like all rabid animals needs to be put down

#21 Posted by BlackArmor (6136 posts) - - Show Bio

Sabertooth is right

#22 Posted by CATPANEXE (9368 posts) - - Show Bio

@KenTheProfile:

I never met those people so I wouldn't know. All I know is the law made up fictional histories for those real life people to inspire respect in the law, much in the way the government made up histories for people like George Washington and Newton in order to preach an ideal they personally favor as well. Key word is that code of honor your speaking of contrived and non-entity in reality. Sorry but those are horrible examples, and your trying to compare rocks to a planet in this case so it falls short on my end. You may have just as well tried to use the example of a middle school child striking back a bully who was assaulting him as well.

Everyone keeps addressing Wolverine trying to make up for his past...do you people mean the killing he has done? He hasn't stopped. He hasn't even slowed down. I'm having a hard time swallowing that as anything other than veiling, and already addressed that in my OP, as well established it as the reason for the question the itself. Also I'm failing on the Sabretooth raped+mass murder cancels out Wolverine mass murder completely. Again, I'm seeing the " Wolverine only kills/has killed this sort of character " notion, which isn't true, and again another reason I brought the question to light. I feel I failed at this point in sparking a relevant discussion topic.

#23 Posted by KenTheProfile (412 posts) - - Show Bio

@CATPANEXE:

well if you gonna take that path then all the x men are murdering scum. but to get more to the point. first of all I have done my reasearch thank you. the code of honor is a real thing. even if it's never stated by the person using it. Take Doc Holliday for example, people who knew this man (people who both loved and hated him) said he lived by his loylity to Wyatt Earp. his every action was in aid of or in denfense of Earp. ( I wrote a very long paper on this using many diffrent text, newpaper and historical document , if you really in that intrested I'll share it with you.) this is how i see Wolverine a man who well not good in the general idea of the word but has some strange in works we can understand.

also yes Wolverine keeps killing because he still has animal in him. it just now he kills more bad people then good. you can stop people like Sabertooth and what ever evil with a damn Hippie.you use an eqaul force. lastly it comes down to what the end goal is sabertooth kills for his own enjoyment. Wolverine is working to a better world for the mutants. also other heroes don't call wolverine out on his killing because if there is one man you want on your side it Wolverine, not fighting you. so Wolverine is right he may never get forgiveness but he channeled his anger in a better direction.

#24 Posted by CATPANEXE (9368 posts) - - Show Bio

@KenTheProfile:

I've read it too. Doc Hollywood = Wolverine? Again that comparison fails me.

That literally makes no sense. That's veiling, and externalization for that matter. Actually it quantifies confusing fiction with reality as well.

Like I said and like I said I regret asking the question at this point. I was hoping to proven about humanity, not lose more faith in it as a result.

#25 Posted by fireball11 (20 posts) - - Show Bio
@CATPANEXE:  Logan during the greatest part of his life was a soldier and a secret services operative ( CIA and Canadian Intelligence ), so the persons that he killed for the most of times was ordered to do it. And the vast majority of those persons were Nazis, terrorists, Hydra agents, Hand assasins. So if you accused him for murderer than you have to accuse every war hero or CIA agent or marine for murderer too. And also you have to accuse each of his superiors that mind-wiped him and manipulated him. Logan sure he use lethal force during a battle when it's necessary (you don't expect someone with metal claws to use them for scratching his back or for helping cats from the trees), but the difference is that Logan always hated himself for this. He knows he is condemned, for this reason he uses his claws for saving lifes. He cares about the persons around him and he is selfless. Sabretooth cares only about himself. He has no honour code. He kills innocents. He embrace the animal within
#26 Posted by Soulstealer (825 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes Logan's a hypocrite and Creed's right. However that doesn't excuse Creed's actions in the least. Yes he's a killer, but everyone's a killer. Humanity may have trouble expressing this, but each and everyday were responsible for a great many deaths. People swat flies and don't apologize for it. You eat carrots without saying "Oh my, I just killing a living organism." Some of us eat beef, chicken,pork, lamb, horse. However you want to spin it, we're all killers. It's how our bodies work not to mention the bodies of a great deal of other living things on this planet.

Being humans, thinking and reasoning, it's easy to shrug it off. "None of those things are sentient..sentient life is more important than non-sentient." But according to whom exactly is non-sentient life more important? If your guess was humanity, you got it in one. Justifying killing is a human thing to do. Everything we do, we justify it, because long story short humanity's thought process has and always will be about understanding, explaining, and justification. It's how we as a species proceed. The need to explain created religions, the need to understand science, justification is a huge part of the social contract (i.e. being a part of a society) as stated or unstated as it might be that we all are a part of. So of course if Logan's thoughts are human enough, he's filled with justification. The things he does, he justifies so as to fit within the expectations of society (his and ours actually, though the two are similar enough if only so the reader can relate to the society).

Also while Creed doesn't feel the need to justify that doesn't mean that his views are correct or even not a bit hypocritical themselves.

#27 Posted by KenTheProfile (412 posts) - - Show Bio

@CATPANEXE:

Who is Doc Hollywood? I am talking about John "Doc" Holliday D.D.S. Gambler, drunk, gun fighter Consumptive. Yes, he and Wolverine have much in common. Both are men who dedicated their life to another person, they are men who are not good in the normal sense of the word, but have used there negative quality in a constructive rather then destructive away. Are they shinning examples of humanity? Hell no. but they for whatever reasons pick a less animal path. This is my point Wolverine tries to be more then he is, has he made mistakes yes but he tries that all anyone can ask for. Justification is fickle thing, take the crusades as an example do they negate the good the church as done for the poor, sick or spiritually lost? No. does it that good justifies the crusades. No. Wolverine is right because he does what only we as other humans do he tries. Mutants are human at the end of the day so Sabertooth is the one who lies, he denied his human side. He not wolverine is the fake. In addition, this is by far one of the best discussions I have had on CV. Thank you Cat

#28 Posted by Kairan1979 (16722 posts) - - Show Bio

@BADJEREMIE said:

Wolverine is a killer/assassin with this own code of honor or by the pass for this country like a soldier or spy .He is not a serial killer like ted bundy or ed gein maybe a mass murderer because he kill a lot of peoples but he will not kill grandpa or a little girl who just pass by the street like Sabretooth will do it just for showing of he can do it.I read myself like you CATPANEXE most of the Wolverine storie in comics or trades or novels.For Victor Creed , he is just a psychopath.

#29 Posted by perry_411 (428 posts) - - Show Bio

If you follow that they are evolved lupines(Lupus sapiens) then only Wolverine has willingly committed murder of Sabretooth.

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