32 Comments
Posted by reaper2923

Can I steal that wall behind you?

Posted by sora_thekey

Haven't read this issue... but you guys just made me want to read it more! 
But this just got me thinking... is Marvel trying to re-do it all? 
 
OMD... 
Whatever happens here... 
Captain America Reborn 
Moderator
Posted by thiagofonseca

Doesn't it feel like Tony Stark is being [kind of] replaced by a [slightly] younger version of himself?
 
Didn't we see that before?

Posted by HaloKing343

This is such a great series
Posted by DMC

The last page of this issue was pretty sweet (IMO) , but I can see how it could be seen as a cop out. Which is why I really reeeeeallly hope that even though Tony has been "dissassembled" that he's still the same in "certain" aspects.
 
I think  some of the repercussions of this plays out in AVENGERS PRIME

Posted by Riezner

...what's he doing in that panel?

Posted by Croz1007

I agree with Babs.  The artwork in this issue is gorgeous!  The story was really good in this issue.

Posted by lostlantern13

Matt Fraction on Iron Man has been fantastic. It's well worth reading.  
 
Love the discussion, but I don't think the end was a cop out if Fraction handles it correctly. We've gotten to explore a lot about Iron Man and Tony Stark so far, but what could happen may provide a very different and very cool exploration of the character.

Posted by goldenkey

Fraction is blowing up
Posted by FoxxFireArt

What do you know. At the heart of the ass Tony has been these years. Deep down, he has a Beautiful Mind.
 
Are all these people with grudges against Tony's actions just suppose to drop it all because Tony just doesn't remember it anymore? How is he suppose to make right what he messed up for everyone if he doesn't know what he did?
It does seem like a cop out to just wipe your slate clean. Rather then trying to make up for your sins

Posted by Joe Venom

Great issue! Great review! I wonder if his guilt will lead him back drinking again that might be interesting to see

Posted by Nova`Prime`
@FoxxFireArt: Its obvious the slate just isn't being wiped clean, or Tony wouldn't have been doing what he was. Its ridiculous to call the ending a cop out. What do you want another young Tony brought to the future just like Heroes Reborn?
 
Plus from his reaction he definitely sees he has a lot to make up for, even if he doesn't remember what he did.
Posted by TylerLux

This has been a great read. the whole Tony Stark Disassembled thing was needed. I am glad he has the Arc reactor back and the Extremis virus is gone. Do not get me wrong I loved the Extremis armor and what it did, but I want the Stark that invents new things and thinks more. 

Posted by FoxxFireArt
@Nova`Prime`: 
Just look at what everyone else paid because of him and supporting the Registration Act. Captain America and others paid with their lives. Spider-man nearly lost Aunt May, then his marriage.
 
What does Tony give up? Culpability.
Posted by Nova`Prime`
@FoxxFireArt: 
Tony gave up a lot more then just culpability (although I don't see him giving that up either), if that was it he wouldn't have been reading newspapers and looking on the internet for the time lost. Its obvious from his reaction he knows he has alot to make up for, it wouldn't surprise me if Tony goes back to being a drunk we don't know how far back this will go. Plus all of that wasn't only Stark's fault, why does Richards get a pass.. oh he was a Skrull, so Skrull Richards and Pym were talking in Tony's ear, two people he really trusted. So just because he trusted the wrong guys he's the fall guy. Cap didn't have to go against Registration, he didn't have to rally heroes to his cause. Tony gave up what makes him, that's an awful lot to give up.
Posted by lostlantern13
@FoxxFireArt said:
"What do you know. At the heart of the ass Tony has been these years. Deep down, he has a Beautiful Mind. Are all these people with grudges against Tony's actions just suppose to drop it all because Tony just doesn't remember it anymore? How is he suppose to make right what he messed up for everyone if he doesn't know what he did?It does seem like a cop out to just wipe your slate clean. Rather then trying to make up for your sins "

Itf handled right it's definitely not a cop out. It's far too early to deem the ending a cop out. You're not seeing the potential beauty of the situation.
 
Stark's mind eventually becomes the mind that led him down the path of douchery. Not only does Stark have to cope with the guilt and make amends to those he has wronged, but this could also be played in an angle that Tony's doubting and questioning his actions...can Stark really choose to do the right thing or is he on the path to douchery again? 
 
A cop out makes it seem like Fraction has no plans for this. If the next issue comes out and it's Stark with sunshine and rainbows then it is a cop out. However, Fraction can take things in a route similar to what I suggest above or in an entirely different route. I doubt there's not a plan for this plot point.
Edited by DH69

loved the arc but its been taking to long to me i would have liked them to have wrapped it up about 2 issues ago but im an iron man junkie so i tolerate it...still not used to the new armor yet though, question on my mind is does he still have the extremis capabilitie, cause the new suit looks almost skin tight wheres the software/hardware bein held if not his brain

Posted by FoxxFireArt
@Nova`Prime` said:
" @FoxxFireArt:  Cap didn't have to go against Registration, he didn't have to rally heroes to his cause. Tony gave up what makes him, that's an awful lot to give up. "
So, it's Cap's fault for not supporting a reactionary policy that goes against American values of civil liberties that Tony became such an A-%^$#??? You're passing the buck pretty darn far on that one.
 
So, how is Cap also at fault that Tony made the decisions that eventually led the country to have to turn to Norman Osborn? Going to be even more of a stretch considering he was dead at the time.
Posted by Nova`Prime`
@FoxxFireArt: Its not passing the buck its true, Cap could have fought against the SHRA in any number of ways (they're just not as action packed), but he choose to take on Tony. So that lead to the hero divide, which lead to the general public not trusting the heroes (afterall they have to follow the laws why not the heroes), then you have the Skrull Invasion, bringing even more distrust on the hero community, so when an opportunistic Osborn takes his shot he's a shoe in to take over for the disgraced Tony Stark (especially with Cap out of the picture). I am not trying to say Tony was innocent in everything that happened, but to heap all the blame on him is ridiculous. Tony and Steve could have done more to keep the whole Civil War explosion, but they didn't.
Posted by victorvndoom

what is copout?

Edited by jefprice
@FoxxFireArt: I think you need to reread ALL the books. If anyone had heard what Tony had to say to start with, the CW, the SI none of the past 7 years would have happened. HE brought the info to the heroes and tried to stop each issue before it started no one listened and therefor crap happened.   
 
IF Tony didn't get behind the Reg during the pre CW days it would have been war between all the heroes AND the normal people like us.  
 
 
I don't get how it's a cop out at all. A cop out is brand new day.
Posted by Yung ANcient One
Posted by Archetype

I agree with Babs on this one...what happened certainly feels like a cop out and there is only one thing they can do to smooth it over for me to make me feel like they didn't just replace Tony Stark.If this Tony learns what he has done and tries to justify it somewhat then the change will be a bit more believable and I'll roll with it but if he learns what he did and hates all of it then I will be disappointed.Sure he can be happy that Cap is alive and he doesn't have to feel the remorse that his former self did instead he can feel a little regret but like I said he needs to think he was partially right or you have fundamentally changed the character.

Posted by speedlgt

it may feel like a copout but lets think about it its totally a Stark douche move...........it fits in perfectly with stark he suffers destroys his own mind and hope that if he survives it he get a totally free pass on all his F ups cause he uses an old version of his mind from a time where he was a good guy not a traitor everyone has to forgive him cause he doesnt know what he did and most of all NOW he can live with himself.
 
its the ultimate sacrifice and DOUCHE bag move that he could pull off and its signature STARK!!!!!!!!!!!! i love it and hate it but no matter what i am reading it
 

Posted by Omega Ray Jay

Loved it, Iron Man has been on top form for a few months now.

Posted by victorvndoom
@Yung ANcient One said:
" @victorvndoom: 
 
"
i know that but i didnt know what a cop out was:p still dont know it , if you call something 'a cop out' and you dont know what it is dont use then, babs :p
Posted by spiderknight
@thiagofonseca:

fair point....but the thing is how far back did he make his "backup harddrive"?
Posted by squidracerX
  "Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall." It is a cop out that makes Tony less of a man in my eyes... Less of a hero. Man up Tony, don't run away!
  
SPOLER? Tony resets his memories right? I haven't read it, but that's what I am piecing together.... I agree with FoxxFireArt's position then; "How is he suppose to make right what he messed up for everyone if he doesn't know what he did?" 
 
Now others like NovaPrime have said "he read up on it on the net, knows what he's done, and feels bad for it." And I feel that as well, but so what? First off if he is just going to read up on what he did and bring himself up to date with his own actions, but then maybe he won't remember WHY he made them in the first place, then why bother doing this story ark at all? At least as Nova pointed out he would have known the Skrulls tricked him before, he may have learned from his mistakes. And again what was the point of erasing the mind if you just re-read it all back? Dumb "plot twist" then right? Secondly what if a sex offended goes to jail and becomes a eunich, so he loses sexual desire. Or a murderer suppresses his memory or finds God. Should victims forgive them? I personally don't think so. The heroes should still be pissed at him.
 
And what ever happened to the old adage "learn from your mistakes". If Tony came out of Civil War truly sorry, i would say that made him a better man, at least stronger for it. And won't Tony just follow the same path he followed to get here in the first place? From age 38 to 39 (i don't know his exact age) he made certain decisions. Certainly some were influenced by outside influence like the Skrulls that are not the same now; but lots of that was made up from his life experience over his 38 years which is the same now. So he resets his mind back to 38 he is going to make many for the same flawed decisions. Again at least he would have learned from those mistakes had he remembered. he can't better himself this way.   
 
Lostlantern13 brings up a neat idea though with; "..but this could also be played in an angle that Tony's doubting and questioning his actions...". And that is really the only way I see this going if its not 100% cop out. That is kinda neat, but i would rather him feel true remorse, being a better person/hero from his failings, "he went so low the only way is up", and he would do anything to bring the team back together. And they lost that i think. I feel this is more akin to Spider-man not being married now, its a redo card.
Posted by squidracerX

@ victorvndoom "what is a cop out"    
"if you call something 'a cop out' and you dont know what it is dont use then".
 
Cop Out:

  1. A failure to fulfill a commitment or responsibility or to face a difficulty squarely.
  2. A person who fails to fulfill a commitment or responsibility.
  3. An excuse for inaction or evasion.
So you and your co-worker have a bog report due in a few days, you fake sick because you don't want to do it, they needed your help but you did a cop out and left it all on them. This is 100% what Tony did. He reset his mind so he is like a "Phoenix from the ashes", and somehow changed and not responsible. But then goes and re-reads everything that's been done. So for the writer of the comic i point out that it was basically a pointless act. That the main purpose in this storyline (i know there was some plot point in protecting stark tech from norman as well, but that's a crud point because norman didn't want stark tech after the invasion anyway), was to let Tony not have to commit to the crappy crap he's done, get a clean slate, and not face the difficulty of his actions squarely. Will he still deal with it somehow? Sure he will get some harsh words from Clint I bet. But it won't be the same. Will Thor beat him up like he did before? I doubt it. Its a cop out to get them working together as Avengers smoothly again. The future will tell!
Posted by Nova`Prime`
@squidracerX: I am not going to reply to all your points... just the one why he erased his memory. It wasn't to forget everything he did, it was the keep what he knew out of Norman Osborn's hands. Before Tony left SHIELD he downloaded all the SHRA info into his head. That and the keys to the Armor vault is what Osborn wanted, so to keep it from his hands Tony erased it, but he need to erase his entire memory as a consequence.
 
So after all this you don't see that Stark paid a price for all he's done? He's lost his company, his friends, his mind. Basically Tony lost everything that makes him Tony. Others have done some pretty horrible things and yet they have been given the chance to redeem themselves (ie Pym/Ultron). But not Tony he's not allowed to seek redemption I want to know why.
Posted by squidracerX
@Nova`Prime`: 
Yeah, sorry,  I had a lot of points because there were many discussions going on; but yeah i see what you say that in this story line he is making a sacrifice (as i said i knew there was a Norman Osborn thing but I didn't read this line). BUT I would rebut that the Norman plot line in this comic was made up for this 'deus ex machina' resolve/rebuild of Tony. 
 
Point #1... you don't want Norman to get your secrets so you download all of your genius level memory into a SHIELD computer (which Norman becomes the leader of!). Freaking dumb. If Norman wanted that info he has enough tech guys on his team he would have had that info. Why would Tony ever have done that!? It was, from a writing perspective, to forget everything he did and let him get his honor back in the Marvel universe. Point #2.... Norman had previously said in the Thunderbolts comics that he didn't need Stark Tech; that his tech was just as good, his armor was good enough, and he never really showed a lust for Stark Tech beyond what he got from taking over s.h.e.i.l.d.  If he had wanted to track this down so bad why not 8 months ago or a year ago when the heroes were at their weakest? Why wait until just before his reign falls? i would argue because Norman wasn't a main plot point... he was just a catalyst.
 
Its plain to me that the main reason they wrote this plot was to rebuild the Avengers after Dark Reign. And for that you need Iron Man. Norman is going down soon and fast; he was not a true threat to Tony anymore. What was a threat was Tony Stark being ostracized by the other heroes but also being needed as a major relaunch force in the Avengers - him being a square peg and the Avengers team a round hole. You need some way to make him get along with the rest of the team and fast. Thor is back and Captain America doesn't get reborn everyday! Lets get Tony back in the game!
 
So why might i say its a deus ex machina ending? (sloppiest of all writing styles in my opinion)  
Definition: "whereby a previously intractable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with a contrived introduction of a new character, ability, or object"
Boom. Had Tony been backing up his memory in Iron Man for years? If so - maybe they thought of this plot a while ago and although I still think its weak, its not contrived. Or is this a new revelation within the last few months to a year? (That's how far out they script out current plots... And it wasn't in Avengers because I get all those and i never heard of it, but i don't read Iron Man.) If its new its stupid. Its bad writing. (well I think its bad writing either way). A problem of Tony being a square peg to an Avengers round hole is abruptly solved with a contrived introduction of memory back-ups and Norman coming for him when he previously wasn't gunning for him that hard (at least not enough for this desperate mind wipe). 
 
Again i say let Tony earn his Avengers trust back like Pym did. Pym didn't get a do-over, people still rag on him for hitting Jan and building Ultron. I still don't like him totally. I stick by "we learn from our mistakes" over "I'm a new man"..
Posted by Antiochus

But then again, should he be blamed in the same fashion? 
 
Pym beated his wife out of anger.  It was an irrationnal act that was not supported by any kinf of moral mental process.  On the other hand, you got Tony Stark, who sided with a very popular legislation after it passed and could no longer be fought.  He had a descent argumentation, explaining that should the heroes openly resist, the government would take measures to bring them down, a scenario further demonstrated by some ''What if?''.  He was conflicted about the whole issue and wanted to end the conflict as quickly as possible.  His major mistake was about the negative zone, but that should be shared with several other marvel characters. 
 
But the major issue here is that, even though he fought it until the end, Cap himself admitted that he had lost the argument.  That superheroes could indeed cause widespread chaos if there was no oversight.  Thats how the war ended. 
 
Oh, and as of Osborn's fixation with Stark tech, I think SquidracerX simply did not read all of World's most Wanted.  Osborn is obsessed with Stark, mainly because he was everything he wished to be.  I think this is made quite obvious by Norman's use of Stark's armors and his attempts at reverse engineering his tech, something at which he failed...