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Posted by carnivalofsins00

X- Force Vol 1 that was just released should be next. =]
Please?

Posted by Gylan Thomas
@carnivalofsins00 said:
" X- Force Vol 1 that was just released should be next. =] Please? "
Sorry dude but I say no to that one.
Trading views should be about older classic stories that modern readers might not know much about.
Posted by G-Man

It's a mix of old and new. And hopefully stuff that's still in print.

Staff
Edited by Tainted-Cell

Borrow it?!
This is one of the most essential X-Men stories to date. Not only was it so audacious for it's time, but there are so many pivotal moments for a LOT of the X-Men. Psylocke and her first encounter with Sabretooth, Angel having his wings mutilated (> lead into Archangel), the Morlocks nearly wiped out, the introduction to the Marauders; the grave feeling that anyone can die with Kitty, Kurt, and Colossus seriously injured and requiring the assistance of Magneto!
Wolverine is growling at rats because they like to eat dead bodies... bodies of recently killed mutants..... why is this lame? 
This is a definite buy, guys.

Posted by Edamame

LOL. Why was Thor in this story arc?

Posted by Ryonslaught
@Edamame: years later and I still don't have an answer to that one :P
Posted by camodude

seriously!? 
 Don't diss the classic writing style!!

Posted by JR_84
@Edamame:   It seems a little weird doesn't it, but there is a simple explanation :
Louise Simonson wrote X-Factor... Walter Simonson wrote Thor (and maybe drew X-factor also)....  there be a connection??? 
Posted by Edamame
@JR_84: Does Mr. Sinister appear in this? Does Magneto get any action here? How often does Vertigo appear?
Posted by doordoor123

Every time you do a trade review i dont want to pick up that trade. It doesnt sound appealing to me.
Before i started reading comics i only read trades. Its been so long since ive read one and i would love to jump on one. 
My suggestion: Please review better trades. Preferably ones that you would buy. Thanks.

Posted by cattlebattle
@Tainted-Cell said:
"Borrow it?! This is one of the most essential X-Men stories to date. Not only was it so audacious for it's time, but there are so many pivotal moments for a LOT of the X-Men. Psylocke and her first encounter with Sabretooth, Angel having his wings mutilated (> lead into Archangel), the Morlocks nearly wiped out, the introduction to the Marauders; the grave feeling that anyone can die with Kitty, Kurt, and Colossus seriously injured and requiring the assistance of Magneto! Wolverine is growling at rats because they like to eat dead bodies... bodies of recently killed mutants..... why is this lame?  This is a definite buy, guys. "

don' t forget the birth of Excalibur stemmed from this, As well as retconning made Gambit, Marrow and Sabretooth the interesting characters they are today.
Posted by blade hunter
@G-Man said:
" It's a mix of old and new. And hopefully stuff that's still in print. "
Would'nt mind seeing something about a Death in the Family if you have'nt already done it?
Edited by longbowhunter

I really love these TPB reviews. I understand what ya' mean about the writing back then. It is very wordy and exhausting. I'm working my way through Bryne's FF run and some of the earliest X-Factor stuff right now and it is taking me FOREVER!!

Online
Posted by ElJuano

WOW!!! So what's up with the old storyline hating on this book ? I think , no I know I'm not alone in this that Chris Claremont is among the premiere story tellers especially in the X-Men Canon. So because it's a story from like 30 years ago and the narrative does not fit the style of today it's crap? Ok when did Comic Vine become Wizard? When the only thing that matters is the Now, what's hot and who's hot? These "old"stories as goofy as they might seem now, have a purpose and actually make a  whole lot of sense according to each storyline before the continuity changed. Don't get me wrong some storylines back then were Ridiculous, but Dang! Appreciate and recognize that many of us did grow up enjoying these and similar stories like this one. 

Posted by G-Man

Hmmm...I assume you guys are listening to what we say besides just looking at the "rating." We both mentioned how this is an important piece of X-Men history. A couple have mentioned all the events that came out of this which I did mention as well in the video. They way those comments are put here makes it sound (to me) that you missed when I mentioned them. I'm trying to give a rating in terms of how people would look at it today. It is definitely worth reading. I'm just not sure if those that haven't already read it would feel the need to buy it and keep it in their collection. For those that did read it when it was first published, when was the last time you read your actual issues? 
 
As for only doing reviews on what we think people should buy, that'd go against the whole segment. Not all trades are winners. We give our opinions. You can watch and listen and form your own opinion.
 
And let me point out that I did buy this trade in order to do the review...
 

Staff
Posted by Edamame
@G-Man: 
Does Mr. Sinister appear in this? Does Magneto get any action here? How often does Vertigo appear? 
Edited by etragedy

The Mutant Massacre, and The Fall of the Mutants were the last great hurrahs for the X-Men.
Definitely not their high point, but so much better than what was to come.
After that it was all downhill slide, even before Claremont left the book - it was BIG EVENT after BIG EVENT.
I made it partway through the next big X event 'Inferno', before I quit reading X-Men altogether.
 
After MM & FOTM it took decades before X-Men was good again.

Posted by leokearon

I would love to see you review Armor Wars (I got it and I think it's great)
Online
Posted by ForbushBug
@etragedy said:

" The Mutant Massacre, and The Fall of the Mutants were the last great hurrahs for the X-Men. Definitely not their high point, but so much better than what was to come. After that it was all downhill slide, even before Claremont left the book - it was BIG EVENT after BIG EVENT. I made it partway through the next big X event 'Inferno', before I quit reading X-Men altogether.   After MM & FOTM it took decades before X-Men was good again. "

 I totally agree. After those storylines we had Xavier's dream being turned into self-imposed segregation. Non-mutant supporting cast were casually killed off like Candy Southern or retconned into evil like Maddie Pryor. The Mutant Massacre gritty, shocking, and had the reader wondering just who was or wasn't safe. Now with going from one biggest X-Event ever to the next there's no suspense and the gratuitous mort of the moment each one has to have is bordering on comical.
Posted by Tainted-Cell
@G-Man: Well yes, it is dated. I guess I was thinking more in terms of collecting than reading. I myself wasn't around when this story was published, so no, I didn't buy the issues that made up this crossover, and like Sara suggested, when I first read it, it was a collection within an Essential X-Men tpb that I checked out from the library. As far as longevity is concerned however, having (mostly) kept up with the X-Men comics these days, I feel as if I can safely say this story and Claremont's emotion-driven writing style is easily more enticing than what we see with Matt Fraction. For casual readers who aren't all that into X-Men, yes, I definitely have to agree with you that this a "borrow" someone else's copy, but as an X-Men fan, it belongs on my shelf.
Posted by logan48227
@G-Man:
I've actually dragged out my original issues of the Uncanny X-Men parts of Mutant Massacre a few days ago just for the Wolverine/Sabretooth battles and I loved how much the narrative actually helped shape the story. 
 
I kind of forgot that its sometimes ok to actually layout a story for the reader instead of having a character just do something and then give exposition later. Writing for trades is alright, but I think that having a book kind of lead you through the characters thoughts and have narration do more than just tell you where the story is taking place can still be good too. 
 
I definitely agree with you on the Thor part of the crossover though. I'm a lifelong Thor fan and I still don't understand why he had to be involved at all. Although seeing him kill some Marauders makes it worthwhile I guess.
Posted by Big

I miss the older style of X-Men narrative. Part of what made comics in the eighties and into the nineties so fascinating was that guys like Chris Claremont put so much into the characters and inner-lives of the X-Men. I felt like a kid that was entering into a world of high stakes and real drama. As the X-Men devolved into pin-up art and empty action panels, I found the stories to be much more superficial and less interesting. I think I lost interest in the X-Men storyline just after X-Cutioner's song, when the drama surrounding Cable and Scott and Jean truly unfolded. Interestingly, Andy Kubert and Fabian Nicieza were writing and drawing some of those issues back then, and they have remained in the industry, contributing their talents to Batman and others. However, their style is anything but dated! I know  X-Cutioner's song was in the nineties, but I think that is when the paradigm shifted, in X-Men, from narrative and dialogue to action and toned bodies. Oh well, blame it on Jim Lee, I guess (joke...sort of).
Posted by RiceFox

I loved putting together Claremont's puzzle pieces, especially because they came together SO well. He had masterminded an entire world for the X-Men; these oddball characters almost felt real. I love his heavy narrative. It makes you linger on the pages, and fully take in all the situations. Unlike today's writing where sometimes I can't help but blow through the issues, Claremont gave me that extra crutch to help me take my time, absorbing every panel. Also, his narrative, while seeming melodramatic nowadays, just seems awesome to me.

Posted by xerox_kitty

I'd agree with most of what was said.  It's seriously wordy.  By today's standards where you have writers like Kyle & Yost who let Mike Choi & Sonia Oback tell 10 pages worth of story WITHOUT ANY TEXT, then it seems extremely bizarre & even condescending to have Claremont tell you what's happening in every panel.  However, while styles have changed I still find most of the stories in there better thought out & executed than the current Uncanny X-Men has been in the last few years.  
 
(And yeah, the font on the back cover is bloody awful).

Moderator
Edited by FoxxFireArt

Yeah, that Mutant Massacre is not a huge book. I just got my Gold Digger Gold Brick trade paperback. That encapsulates everything from Gold Digger #51-75.It's a pretty big trade paperback.
 
I would contend that comics now are too focused on action that story is pushed aside. Not tat all writers do that, but I say it's the lion's share.

Edited by JR_84
@Edamame:  I haven't read this in a while, but if I'm not mistaken Mr. Sinister is only mentioned, you don't actually get to see him.... I think you have to wait for Fall of the mutants to see him (I've never read that story arc... I know Sinister plays an important role in Inferno... lots of people say that story arc is bad... I enjoyed it though).
Magneto at that time was the leader of the X-men... I don't actually remember seeing him that much...  
Vertigo is part of the Maurauders so you see her quite a bit. 
I hope this helps...  
As it has been mentioned in a previous post, this was collected in the Essential X-men (I recommend this over the trade presented here)... the thor and x-factor issues are contained in the book... and a bunch of other great Claremont stories with art by JRJR, Barry Windsor-smith and Art Adams!!!.
Posted by THALASTDRAGON

 @Tainted-Cell said:

"Borrow it?! This is one of the most essential X-Men stories to date. Not only was it so audacious for it's time, but there are so many pivotal moments for a LOT of the X-Men. Psylocke and her first encounter with Sabretooth, Angel having his wings mutilated (> lead into Archangel), the Morlocks nearly wiped out, the introduction to the Marauders; the grave feeling that anyone can die with Kitty, Kurt, and Colossus seriously injured and requiring the assistance of Magneto! Wolverine is growling at rats because they like to eat dead bodies... bodies of recently killed mutants..... why is this lame?  This is a definite buy, guys. "


i fully agree wit u. im a huge x-men fan and i bought this trade at either borders wit a borders reward coupon or at C2E2, gotta luv sunday sales. and while its far from perfect, i think its a buy. she said its so different from what we read today...ofcourse, its over 20 years old lol. but i will say, claremonts work can sometimes leave somethin to be desired lol.
Posted by 4Essence

great review guys! 
Posted by MoonstoneEvil

Good review. 
 
I bought this a while ago as the Mutant Massacre is an important storyline when it comes to character's histories and I'm an X-men fan.

Posted by zombietag

yay for old comics!

Posted by webofthornns

personally i miss narrative like that, it was an actual read and added so much to the story, it seems like today's comics rely more on art than storytelling
Posted by Preacherl2k

What a throwback it is to watch a review on this trade, I can remember reading the individual books way back then. Comic books have certainly changed since those days!
 
It's also interesting to watch G-Man( who is showing his age when he admits to buying the original books, old like me haha) and Babs relate their reading experiences on this trade. I never thought about how different it must be for a younger person to read a book from the 80's and the style back then compared to people like myself and G-Man who grew up on these titles. It really shows how much comics have changed since 1985-86.
Anyway if your an X-Men fan or history fan ( I'd compare this to reading the Simarillion from the Lord of the Rings books) it contains allot of back story to today's characters, but I agree with the rating-- borrow it or public library  if you can.

Posted by ImperiousRix

I kinda like the narrative style, personally, but I can understand that it may seem like it drags a lot of the action down, and how it's sometimes better to just SHOW what's going on rather than have a bunch of exposition. 
 Looks like a good book for X-Men fans.  It's always nice to go back to a team's roots.

Posted by ComicCrazy

I think it would be great if you guys did a trading views on batman under the red hood before the animated movie comes out.
Edited by ArtisticNeedham

Wasn't Mr. Sinister having the Muarders kill the Morlocks because they were his "failed" experiments?
 
And I love Alan Davis, I might buy it just for that, if he drew more than one or two issues.
And that cover is by Terry Dodson.

Posted by Sheep-Kill

I think its worth the buy.  I have it at my place and its cool

Posted by X-93

I have some of those issues.  I liked it then I still like it.   I do have to admit the comics today are just better in many ways.

Posted by fACEmelter88

o b4 i was born

Posted by karasu_

Great review 5/5 
Awesome haircut G-man 5/5

Edited by 34gwecfaisuwiueb2eiub2


This is the first time I noticed the TPB review on comicvine.  Great segment for educating willing readers.  
Posted by uncanny89
@G-Man:   i really liked these issues, yeah Chris Claremont's work is wordy but at least in those back issues you feel like you're actually reading a comic whereas now i comic can be read in under 5 mins.   
 
I recently brought the uncanny back issues for this "event" and i really liked it, my favourite part was the introduction to Psylocke because like Bab's i'd never read anything about the english betsy.  The only drawback for me was that the art like all comics of its time is not up to the standard i am used to like with x-force
Posted by Aspenite

I´d buy it.

Posted by spiderguylll

Oh yeah. It's a must-have. Sigh...This was back when X-Factor was the S&%T. 
Cyclops 4 Life

Posted by goldenkey

It's just old.  There's a lot in it, but classics are still just classic.  The have an OLD feeling to them and not everyone likes that.  I myself read books over and over so I would borrow it, if I liked it, then I would buy. 
Posted by ChaosAgent


Kind of came off as being slightly harsh, there Babs. Calling the art bad, and the writing wordy...  

It might be hard to still appreciate what it was back then, with how comics are now, but back then this kind of style was considered genius. There are people, like my self, however, that believe that it still is genius.

 

I honestly prefer a more in-depth writing style than just panels filled with flashy action. Unless the art is drop-dead amazing, and can speak more for itself, that is.  

All rantings aside, nice review as always, guys. Although I'd personally buy it, m'self.

Posted by ahumancartoon

I always regarded Mutant Massacre one of the best X-Men storylines, but while I was watching this I felt like I was "Rick Rolled". BORROW IT!!! AH come on now! 
 
Now let me get this straight, you're worried that new readers wouldn't be able to follow the story but you complain that there's too much narrative? Weird!

Posted by sora_thekey
@ImperiousRix said:

"I kinda like the narrative style, personally, but I can understand that it may seem like it drags a lot of the action down, and how it's sometimes better to just SHOW what's going on rather than have a bunch of exposition."

I actually don't like it because it leaves no space for the art to tell part of the story. What I mean is that the narrative style was always in comics, then the best thing to do is get rid of the artist and make it a novel. 
.  
@xerox-kitty said:

"By today's standards where you have writers like Kyle & Yost who let Mike Choi & Sonia Oback tell 10 pages worth of story WITHOUT ANY TEXT, then it seems extremely bizarre & even condescending to have Claremont tell you what's happening in every panel."

Exactly^
 
I read this trade about 5 years ago, before I even read comic books. I borrowed it from the library seeing as it was an X-Men book I just read the whole thing. I was surprised at all the killing that was done in this book, and to be honest this is the book where I gained respect for Nightcrawler and Kitty Pryde (She's now one of my favorite characters). 
When I read it then I thought it was to wordy though, but I would still buy it just to have it in my collection.
Moderator
Posted by ENGLENTINE

 I do believe the point of the scaring off the rats was to protect the young girl he was hovering over from the scavengers. This shows us that while he is on a mission of violence, he is indeed a hero. It allows Wolverine to get away with doing the same things Sabretooth does. 
  They both kill, but Wolverine only does so in order to protect.  You can chalk it up to a quick character moment, that will now allow the reader to root for him when he goes berserker later
 
 
 I think when you do a review of a book  ( this is the first of these reviews I think I have watched ) perhaps you should go over the historical context in which it was created. As well as any cultural impact. Even if the only impact was to those of us in our little obsession here. 
  
   I would also suggest that the two of you do what you can to become more comfortable in front of the camera.  I was a little uncomfortable for you and it took me out of the review a little bit. Perhaps if you had a little round table with everyone involved with the filming so it ends up being more conversational rather than instructional.
 
 I have done a lot of performing at the theme parks here, and know what it is like to all of a sudden realize you have a lot of people looking at you acting very silly.  Thankfully I am a fat bald man who looks like every wanted poster ever drawn in a post office so it is easy for me to own it. 
 
 Please do not take anything I said as an offense, Its all meant to be constructive

Posted by Whitley

I wonder, I really wonder, what modern comic book readers would think if they encountered some of Jack Kirby's work. Kirby was a lot like that as well working, he would hold all the pieces and until the story arc ended (and it might be in the case with FF 15 or so issues) it would not make a lot of sense. But you always got the idea when reading a Kirby comic (especially when he was really involved with the characters) that he was having a blast and you just had to see it through. 
 
Claremont was a lot like that holding on the pieces, mixing and matching having this master plan and evenutally it would all fit together and make sense. His dialogue is always very good, in part because he was an actor as well so he knows how words sound to his ear. His women are very strong as well, probably because doing summer stock as an actor you get in touch with your fem side a bit more. And unlike a lot of people in the comic biz then he was married and generally did not have a lot of issues with women and how to interact with them. 
 
Yes, he does love the adjectives a bit much. But then his style is so descriptive that you feel like you are right there. And there is this epicness like you are there within this modern myth he is creating. His writing is very novel like and there are times when you are just blown away with what he can do with the written word.  I learned a lot about writing from Claremont and others as well. But I remember reading in own of his Nicole Shea novels (First Flight, Grounded, and Sundowner) the first 2.5 pages of it is nothing but description of this woman navigating a boat by herself on this beautiful sunny day out on the ocean. Not one piece of dialogue is spoken or thought but you get everything. His ability to draw you into his world is amazing. 
 
Posted by charlieboy

that was a great read. and i love the way claremont writes.
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