Vertigo being mishandled and how it affects comics.

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Posted by Silkcuts (5123 posts) - - Show Bio
Vertigo maybe the most important asset DC Comics have after the Trinity.  An Imprint that started off in the pages of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing before it even knew its own name.  Past creators for Vertigo have commented as Vertigo being "The House that Alan Built", I remember Brian K. Vaughan commenting that in the "On The Ledge" section during his run on Swamp Thing (Vol.3). The main reason it makes sense to referring to Vertigo as “The House that Alan Built” is because Alan Moore was the leader of a new movement.   Brian Bolland maybe the first of the British Invasion, but it was Alan Moore that proved British writers were special.   Alan Moore would inspire many of the writers we love today. Vertigo is also the house were Grant Morrison (a fan of Alan Moore) has done his most experimental work.  It is a home where many writers have done their most inspired work.

 
The absolute history of Vertigo is marked by the actions of Karen Berger.  An unknown editor who helped start the British Invasion and who would spearhead Vertigo as an imprint in 1992/3. Under her direction Vertigo started off as a place where lesser known characters of the DCU could grow and evolve and have story driven series instead of series that get bogged up by cross-overs and other main company-wide tie-in events.   This movement was to give writers a place to tell their story uninterrupted. Many of the series to go over to the Vertigo banner were the series that tiptoed around the company-wide events, such as how Swamp Thing tiptoed around Crisis on Infinite Earth and how Neil Gaiman’s Sandman tiptoed around Zero Hour with Worlds' End.   Comics were going into a renaissance. An imprint focused on telling adult stories for adults. The powers that be at the time Jenette Kahn and Paul Levitz supported the direction of Vertigo and its purpose to be “The House that Alan Built”.

Vertigo’s growth was always story driven.   Many of the launch titles are long dead, Swamp Thing for example became three Volumes under Vertigo and a forth Volume, which was suppose to be Swamp Thing Volume 5 was aborted.   Swamp Thing Volume 5 was suppose to be written by British writer China Miéville, even with scripts complete the project was aborted because Vertigo Swamp Thing did not fit the plans of the new co-publishers Dan Didio and Jim Lee.   Other ways Vertigo was going story driven was in the way the contacts were established in Vertigo, many of the contracts for the creator owned works were in favour of the creator.   Because of the older contracts Vertigo no longer holds rights to a lot of older Vertigo books, such books as The Crusades written by Steven T. Seagle is now being collected by IDW and none of the Jamie Delano stories with the exception of Hellblazer are reprinted under Vertigo, while books like Outlaw Nation found home at Image and a lot of other books from him found home elsewhere.  

Creator owned books would become the bread and butter to modern Vertigo.   The most famous of all of them maybe Preacher, a book edited by Axel Alonso.   Preacher’s story could have easily become a spin-off from Garth Ennis’ Hellblazer because of the birth of an Angel/Demon hybrid first occurred in Ennis’ Hellblazer with the birth of Elle’s baby.   With Preacher, the story became creator owned and the angels and demons looked different from those in Hellblazer, removing the canon between them, even if in issue number seven of Preacher there is a John Constantine looking character walking in the background somewhere. With the success of Preacher Alonso would later be head-hunted by Marvel, where Alonso would uphold the Vertigo touch with such books as the X-Statix written by Peter Milligan, who as well is a Vertigo alumni.  

Contract issues would later be an issue.   Some creator owned work Vertigo has managed to keep over the years, like Preacher, but many of them Vertigo has lost.   Vertigo believed they fixed this problem, buy still keeping part of the rights to current Vertigo books, such rights are movies for example.   This current contract has turned away some of DC’s talent, Greg Rucka for example hates the current Vertigo contract and would rather release creator owned work at a place like Oni Press.   Because of the contract situation, unless you are Grant Morrison, there only reason to work for Vertigo is to break in.   That is what Vertigo has become a training ground to head hunt talent.   Jeff Lemire would earn his exclusive contract to DC, while great veteran writers like Joshua Dysart and David Lapham can’t seem to attract enough new readers and some of their most “inspired” work suffers for it.

Jenette Kahn would leave DC comics in 2002, and Paul Levitz would take over as president until he stepped down in 2009. DC comics have been going through a lot of changes since the twenty-six year reign of Kahn wrapped up.   Levitz tried to uphold the way him and Kahn ran things, some may say he was forced out, some may say it was his time, we will never know.   In 2009 Warner brothers would announce DC comics would be a subsidiary of DC Entertainment Inc.   This movement to focus on “Entertainment” is where Vertigo and other Imprints were told that DC is going into a restructuring phase.   This restructuring phase would promote a still fairly unknown Diane Nelson as President of DC Comics and would promote Dan Didio and Jim Lee to co-publishers.  

Within a year of this new regime, DC comics have shut down all imprints outside Vertigo, Mad Magazine and DC Kids. Vuda, Wildstorm and Minx have now joined Paradox Press, Piranha Press and Helix as imprints the mainstream comic fan will forget existed.  Business does have its costs and those were just a few examples of the causalities.   Within the year, there have also been some non-financial causality, Vertigo being the imprint to get it the hardest, lost many titles this year.   Some can be blamed on sales such as Greek Street and Air, but then there are some titles that were causalities because of DC’s current direction, titles like award winning Unknown Soldier and acclaimed Madame Xanadu (which still interacted with the DCU), both the sales of those series were fine, Madame Xanadu was outselling any of Brian Wood's books ( DMZ and Northlander) monthly for example, while Unknown Soldier was doing very well in the Trade Paperback format, a format Vertigo’s sales depend on and at times rely on.   What is common with Unknown Soldier, Madame Xanadu and Swamp Thing is that they all were DCU characters at one period at a time.   With the success of the cross-over Blackest Night where Tie-ins like Booster Gold would lead to increased sales, the current regime at DC created a mandate to bring back all the DCU Vertigo characters, so they can be reintroduced and given exposure in the DCU again.   Now The Endless of example can be featured more commonly in DC comics.   This mandate was not needed, Madame Xanadu’s separate stories could still be told under Vertigo, but the powers that be would rather cancel her title thinking that we will believe sales are the reason.   Titles like Hellblazer and House of Mystery still seem to be safe at the moment, but removing them now  would be very suspicious indeed. To limit Vertigo from one period of time having 13 ongoing titles this year to 8 would be foolish. From the 8 series that would be around two of them being under a year old ( American Vampire and I, Zombie) and Scalped being irregular, so only 5 being more than two years old published once a month.

Vertigo has lost its focus. DC has lost its focus on what to do with Vertigo.   Do they depend on acclaimed stories and stick with them until they reach their natural end?   If so, why did Unknown Soldier and Human Target get canceled? Is creator owned the focus? If so, they need to rethink their contracts. Veterans are being turned away, while new talents are gambling on success. Is Vertigo about the story or is it a training grounds now? If it is a training grounds, why are they canceling acclaimed stories and giving writers a chance to establish a name for themselves? Can writers still tell their most “Inspired” work at Vertigo without fear of cancellation? No....

Vertigo was once the home of storytelling, with titles dying out young, the imprint has lost its identity. Vertigo has had many great editors, such as Karen Berger herself and Marvel’s all-star Axel Alonso.   Recently, Editors Joan Hilty, Pornsak Pichetshote and Jonathan Vankin have all been laid off because of the restructuring at DC Comics.   Joan Hilty is more known for her main DCU contributions like Manhunter, instead of her Vertigo contributions like Bigg Time from Ty Templeton. Jonathan Vankin was more known as an editor over a writer, but he was very involved in Vertigo.   Many of his moves at Vertigo may seem like failures financially, like Un-Men and Deadman.   Jonathan Vankin was also the most daring of all the Vertigo Editors with him moves like bring aboard Harvey Pekar, even if after his movie American Splendor has not improved his sales in comics.   The most shocking of the lay-offs would be Pornsak Pichetshote, who is a rising star in comics. Pornsak was an editor on acclaimed work such as Unwritten and Sweet Tooth, he also was involved on The Losers, Human Target, SeaGuy and We3. It is rumored Pornsak is being head hunted by Marvel comics, which he would join Axel Alonso.

Instead of keeping Vertigo healthy, DC Entertainment is focusing on “Entertainment” of comics over the “Art” form which is comics.   Vertigo is still promised to stick around for 2011 with release of We3 deluxe and a few more Vertigo Crime books announced.   Vertigo is being affected by the DC restricting more than anything else. It was once a proud imprint and now it is reduces to a place of uncertainty.   Vertigo is being mishandled and a fan can only pray that DC does not screw it up beyond repair.

Cheers!

-           Silkcuts

#1 Posted by Crom-Cruach (8869 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silkcuts: Welcome to DC one of the two top U.S companies, that is all.
#2 Posted by Darkchild (41467 posts) - - Show Bio

I have been avoiding conversations and news like this because i am DISGUSTED with DC entirely. Vertigo has been a safe haven to publish works by writers known an unknown. The reason that I love Vertigo so SO much is that its a branch of comics that except no substitutes. Every single comic under its print has become something SOMEONE loves, I myself can name at least 30 comics under Vertigo that I love. And Swampy being my very first choice. 
 
I understand SOMEWHAT the circus around him and Madame because of their ties to the DCU but still in all intents they are Vertigos. They have made their biggest contribs to comicdom under the Vertigo imprint. 
 
Swampy was one of my first horror stories I read, stories that actually kept me up as a kid. And I absolutely love him, towards the end of Saga it got shaky but meh its going to happen to a comic sometime. 
 
But to cancel and outsource some of your biggest hitters to other places and imprints is ridiculous. I am honestly scared for Vertigo, the new Crime Books are superb but I want the ongoings no matter how many out at a time to continue. BEcause minus Fables (cant get into it im sorry Tekkers and anyone who loves it i just cant get into it. Altho im forced because of my OCD to read every issue that comes out) everything out RIGHT NOW is AWESOME. 
 
That is what i have to say and I will say very little less. Thank u Silk for the update

#3 Posted by Crom-Cruach (8869 posts) - - Show Bio
@Darkchild said:
"BEcause minus Fables (cant get into it im sorry Tekkers and anyone who loves it i just cant get into it. Altho im forced because of my OCD to read every issue that comes out) everything out RIGHT NOW is AWESOME.  "
heretic...
 
@Darkchild said:
"  I am honestly scared for Vertigo, the new Crime Books are superb but I want the ongoings no matter how many out at a time to continue."
I'm not, I'm sad but not scared. This is DC, everything eventually goes to the crapper, just like marvel.
#4 Posted by Darkchild (41467 posts) - - Show Bio
@Crom-Cruach: LMAO sorry just cant get into it
#5 Posted by Crom-Cruach (8869 posts) - - Show Bio
@Darkchild said:
" @Crom-Cruach: LMAO sorry just cant get into it "
HEATHEN! *grabs a pitchfork and starts riling up the villagers* BURN THE WITCH!
 
Lol! it's cool dude, not everyone will get into Fables. Personally it's one of my favorite Vertigo titles by far. But I can see why people might not enjoy it.
#6 Posted by Silkcuts (5123 posts) - - Show Bio
@Darkchild:  and @Crom-Cruach:  Thanks for the quick replies guys :D
 
I know the way of the beast is to make money, Vertigo was different... that is why I am scared for its safety.
#7 Posted by NightFang (10270 posts) - - Show Bio

It most be the death of Vertigo!

#8 Posted by Amegashita (3560 posts) - - Show Bio
  Silkcuts, you always seem to write up a good post on how you think Vertigo, and some other DC-tied imprits are being mistreated, and it's good to read.  
 
@Crom-Cruach
said:
I'm not, I'm sad but not scared. This is DC, everything eventually goes to the crapper, just like marvel. "
  It's sad to say... but what you speak is the truth.  =[
#9 Posted by Silkcuts (5123 posts) - - Show Bio
@NightFang said:
" It most be the death of Vertigo! "
That is the scare. Vertigo is hurting, that is fact.  It dying is not so obvious, but there is suggestion in its health that Vertigo is not the same great home for the story teller that it use to be.  5 canceled series, with only 2 new to replace.  Those 5 series boggling the minds of the readers why they got canceled in the first place. In stead of Vertigo having 15 on going series, they are shrinking... 
 
If Berger gets canned, then we know Vertigo is dead.
#10 Posted by Silkcuts (5123 posts) - - Show Bio
@Amegashita said:

"   Silkcuts, you always seem to write up a good post on how you think Vertigo, and some other DC-tied imprits are being mistreated, and it's good to read.  
 
@Crom-Cruach
said:

I'm not, I'm sad but not scared. This is DC, everything eventually goes to the crapper, just like marvel. "
  It's sad to say... but what you speak is the truth.  =[ "
Thanks! I am glad you enjoy my posts.  This one I tried to keep for sounding bias, because it wouldn't help the cause by offending people with the truth.  The truth hurts and the facts show it.  Kahn and Levitz leaving, the product has not been the same.  DC Comics is becoming less about comics, but more about entertainment.  
 
As for @Crom-Cruach, thank you for saying it here.  DC is turning away fans.  Instead of DC becoming its own identity and instead of upholding its reputation as a story-telling comic company, it is becoming like Marvel and looking for the quick buck.
#11 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silkcuts: Wait, wait...Pornsak was fired? What the hell? He's editing some of Vertigo's biggest books right now, that doesn't even make sense. 
 
Other then that, I think we agree on most points here, DC is abusing what they established with Vertigo and losing most of its credibility, soon I'll have to think of them what I do of Marvel...the thing that I hate most about this is I still love the stories Vertigo's putting out and would recommend each and every one of them (even Fables! yes, you heard me f@#ker!) but on the other hand I'm disgusted with DC's business practices and feel like a mass boycott is the only way to show them anything...but that would just mean Vertigo getting shut down. I think Vertigo needs to break off from DC and just ride of its own reputation, nobody buys Vertigo because it's a DC imprint or DC because they like Vertigo as is so apart from the inner-workings, the two being connected doesn't really make an impact. 
 
Oh...and CMX was canned this year too, the manga imprint. Also, I'm not sure DC Kids qualifies as an imprint...on the DC site those books are listed in the same place as the rest of the DCU books.
Moderator
#12 Posted by Silkcuts (5123 posts) - - Show Bio
@aztek the lost:  As for Pornsak... ( HERE). I can also believe it because I follow Jeff Lemire on Twitter and he mentioned something ealier this week that he is happy is editor gets to stay in New York.  I hope the news is wrong with him personally, I like Pornsak and he became a nice replacement for Alonso. I really hate being the bad news bringer Vertigo-wise, but it just seems I find the bad news first.
 
I am in the same boat with you. I am slowly being turned away from DC in general, but I love John Constantine and if him and Vertigo leave my life, that is a major blow to comics I enjoy.  I can still live, but I enjoyed Vertigo for so long.  I've already cut back my DC monthly reading, if I still read certain books, it will be in trade.
 
I forgot about CMX, with all the "Facts" I tried to squeeze in, I had to miss something. DC Kids (or Johnny DC) I believe has its own website.  But as it being an imprint its just apples and oranges. DC is not focused and many of its best books are hurt because of it.  I hope DC realizes that they are turning off fans.  If it was not for Vertigo's poor sales, I would be double dipping in the books I do now.  But even Double Dipping didn't save a few of them.
 
If Pornsak goes Marvel, then DC is just dumb.  They lost Andy Diggle, Jason Aaron and it looks like David Lapham as well within the last few years.  Losing Pornsak would be a big blow like when they lost Alonso.
#13 Posted by Darkchild (41467 posts) - - Show Bio

Im just scared that our awesome imprint will not be here for my son to be able to read. Cause i cant wait to start reading with him Preacher and all my favorites. 
 
Also started him in on Swampy and he loves it. So if it dies so does some of the only AWESOME times for Swamp Thing

#14 Posted by Jotham (4512 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting, I didn't know most of that. I think you're right, though, DC just doesn't really know what to do with Vertigo.

#15 Posted by Silkcuts (5123 posts) - - Show Bio
@Darkchild said:
" Im just scared that our awesome imprint will not be here for my son to be able to read. Cause i cant wait to start reading with him Preacher and all my favorites.  Also started him in on Swampy and he loves it. So if it dies so does some of the only AWESOME times for Swamp Thing "
Me too, I don't have kids of my own. But I can see me doing the same thing.
 
@Jotham said:
" Interesting, I didn't know most of that. I think you're right, though, DC just doesn't really know what to do with Vertigo. "

I am just sharing facts.  Glad most people are drawing the same conclusion as me. Glad you enjoyed the Vertigo lesson. :)
#16 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23238 posts) - - Show Bio

I cannot imagine DC crippling Vertigo, it just doesn't make any sense. Then again, stupider things have happened (OMD, Siege, anything 2009+ from Marvel). Welcome to Capitalism folks. 
 
 
ALSO, FABLES IS ****ING AWESOME!

#17 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silkcuts: I don't plan on having children but I would consider polluting my nephews with love of the imprint...I know they've been interested in my comics before but some of us (I'm looking at you Darkchild) don't give mature comics to children. Also, only my oldest nephew can read so there's some time to wait. 
 
I think the odd thing about all this is the new regime would do something like print Shoot which the old regime wouldn't...but then they cancel other great stuff that's pushing the boundaries...they need to get their sh!t together by 2011, I think the new guys don't understand what Vertigo represents, they come at it from a mainstream perspective it seems.
Moderator
#18 Posted by Silkcuts (5123 posts) - - Show Bio
@FadeToBlackBolt said:
" I cannot imagine DC crippling Vertigo, it just doesn't make any sense. Then again, stupider things have happened (OMD, Siege, anything 2009+ from Marvel). Welcome to Capitalism folks.    ALSO, FABLES IS ****ING AWESOME! "
It really doesn't make sense DC is crippling Vertigo.  But the new regime doesn't understand Vertigo, hence the mistreatment. Karen Berger maybe the only editor related to Vertigo still. Levitz has no more power and Didiot thinks he knows comics, when he really only knows how to entertain.  Jim Lee didn't care enough to keep his child Wildstorm a float and abandoned it twice to DC (Sold it and then never doing any art for it to keep the fans interested. I can only think of the single page in Ex Machina as well as a variate cover for issue #50 as Jim Lee's Wildstorm contributions.  At it is Ex machina a book that would sell because of BKV's name alone.  Jim Lee should of done art for his own creations.)
 
Yes welcome to capitalism.  Money is put first. 
#19 Posted by Silkcuts (5123 posts) - - Show Bio
@aztek the lost said:
" @Silkcuts: I don't plan on having children but I would consider polluting my nephews with love of the imprint...I know they've been interested in my comics before but some of us (I'm looking at you Darkchild) don't give mature comics to children. Also, only my oldest nephew can read so there's some time to wait.  I think the odd thing about all this is the new regime would do something like print Shoot which the old regime wouldn't...but then they cancel other great stuff that's pushing the boundaries...they need to get their sh!t together by 2011, I think the new guys don't understand what Vertigo represents, they come at it from a mainstream perspective it seems. "
As for children that can always change.  It did for me. Your still young.  Polluting nephews are fun as well :D
 
As for Shoot, I think it is greed. DC knows Ellis is a big name, so putting his name on books sell. It is the same reason why DC is collecting Jack Cross and reprinting it.  The powers that be in 2000 believed Shoot shouldn't of been printed because of the sensitivity of the time.  That was 10 years ago and now the reasons of why Shoot was no published is only remembered by fanboys like me, the ones who downloaded the black and white version and enjoyed it.  The new regime is about the money, hence series given no chance to turn around unless they are selling well out of the gates.  Vertigo's older focus is no gone and now Vertigo has become just a name DC puts on its "niche" books.
#20 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silkcuts: ha, I can pretend I'm old!
 
Wasn't Shoot originally cancelled because of Columbine happening around that time? nowadays people don't bat an eye when they hear about the local school shooting...however, censorship is wrong on all accounts...and I say that as someone who's mind has conceived things that should be illegal everywhere if morality was our foundation for law...but I for one dream of a world like New Port City (Bomb Queen), where as long as it's kept confined, nothing is illegal. 
 
But I'm getting preachy...speaking of which, I read somewhere once that Invisibles was censored for violence in its beginning when months later Preacher pushed the bar to greater extremes. Also, I always hated they blacked out those terms in Invisibles. I guess the days of true stories are being thrown aside for the days of the same old crap that brings in the cash. I'm upset because there's no other publisher I can trust to enjoy 99% of their stuff apart from Vertigo. Marvel is at about a 5% ratio, DC at a 30% or so and swiftly descending...WildStorm is now gone, Image is half money-grabbing/half quality, Dark Horse publishes properties I rarely have interest in, IDW is like Dark Horse in that regard...and Dynamite is too young at this point in its size to give me a monthly fix of new books to keep my interest in comics steadfast.
Moderator
#21 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silkcuts said:
" @Darkchild:  and @Crom-Cruach:  Thanks for the quick replies guys :D  "
it's not my fault I'm not as quick as everyone else!
Moderator
#22 Posted by Krakoa (505 posts) - - Show Bio

Vertigo needs to split off from DC. DC's merit is that they aren't as openly P.T. Barum-like in their business like Marvel. DC is an ugly cancer infecting the purity of Vertigo and needs to be cut out. I don't get to follow as many titles as I'd like, but one need only pick up a current issue of Doom Patrol and compare it to the Doom Patrol of Grant Morrison's early days and know that they have been cheated. 

#23 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio
@Krakoa said:
" Vertigo needs to split off from DC. DC's merit is that they aren't as openly P.T. Barum-like in their business like Marvel. DC is an ugly cancer infecting the purity of Vertigo and needs to be cut out. I don't get to follow as many titles as I'd like, but one need only pick up a current issue of Doom Patrol and compare it to the Doom Patrol of Grant Morrison's early days and know that they have been cheated.  "
QFT! 
 
also, that recent Human Target sh!t was atrocious compared to what Milligan made
Moderator
#24 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23238 posts) - - Show Bio
@aztek the lost said:
" @Krakoa said:
" Vertigo needs to split off from DC. DC's merit is that they aren't as openly P.T. Barum-like in their business like Marvel. DC is an ugly cancer infecting the purity of Vertigo and needs to be cut out. I don't get to follow as many titles as I'd like, but one need only pick up a current issue of Doom Patrol and compare it to the Doom Patrol of Grant Morrison's early days and know that they have been cheated.  "
QFT!  also, that recent Human Target sh!t was atrocious compared to what Milligan made "
Mmm, maybe. I like that it's owned by DC, because they're such a powerhouse they can keep it in business (yes, I know they just closed WS and that doesn't help my argument), but it's still better to have a powerful but temperamental backer than no backer at all. They just need to water the relationship down even more. As much as I love both characters, I don't want to see Zatanna talking to Constantine. Keep the DCU and the Vetigo U totally separate.
#25 Posted by Silkcuts (5123 posts) - - Show Bio
@aztek the lost:  Yes you can pretend to be older.  I thought you were until I found out you where only 18.  You are an exception to the rule, you know a lot about Vertigo for someone your age. Your your age I don't think you have a rival.  And I agree Censorship is wrong.  Let the readers decided if they don't want it. 
 
@Krakoa said:
" Vertigo needs to split off from DC. DC's merit is that they aren't as openly P.T. Barum-like in their business like Marvel. DC is an ugly cancer infecting the purity of Vertigo and needs to be cut out. I don't get to follow as many titles as I'd like, but one need only pick up a current issue of Doom Patrol and compare it to the Doom Patrol of Grant Morrison's early days and know that they have been cheated.  "

Enjoyed that comment.  It is so true. Doom Patrol has never been the same since G-Mo.
 
@aztek the lost said:
" @Silkcuts said:
" @Darkchild:  and @Crom-Cruach:  Thanks for the quick replies guys :D  "
it's not my fault I'm not as quick as everyone else! "

Thanks for the quote, it helped that quest.  You were not online when I posted the blog, so I don't blame you for the slower response. I am surprise you find so much time for the Vine.
#26 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silkcuts: Heh, when I find something I love, I explore it until I know it all! I do sometimes wish I'd been following it since '93 though. 
 
and glad I could help with the quest, I actually was sleeping when you posted this, I'm starting a new job soon but I don't think it'll cut into my CV time significantly, we'll see
Moderator
#27 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23238 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silkcuts said

 
@Krakoa said:
" Vertigo needs to split off from DC. DC's merit is that they aren't as openly P.T. Barum-like in their business like Marvel. DC is an ugly cancer infecting the purity of Vertigo and needs to be cut out. I don't get to follow as many titles as I'd like, but one need only pick up a current issue of Doom Patrol and compare it to the Doom Patrol of Grant Morrison's early days and know that they have been cheated.  "

Enjoyed that comment.  It is so true. Doom Patrol has never been the same since G-Mo.
 
In fairness though, that's because Morrison's run on Doom Patrol is the single most imaginative and brilliant piece of story-telling ever (outside of Neon Genesis Evangelion, of course). 
 
As for that Shoot story, I find that very interesting , since School-Shootings are something I often like to study.
#28 Posted by Silkcuts (5123 posts) - - Show Bio
@FadeToBlackBolt said:
" @aztek the lost said:
" @Krakoa said:
" Vertigo needs to split off from DC. DC's merit is that they aren't as openly P.T. Barum-like in their business like Marvel. DC is an ugly cancer infecting the purity of Vertigo and needs to be cut out. I don't get to follow as many titles as I'd like, but one need only pick up a current issue of Doom Patrol and compare it to the Doom Patrol of Grant Morrison's early days and know that they have been cheated.  "
QFT!  also, that recent Human Target sh!t was atrocious compared to what Milligan made "
Mmm, maybe. I like that it's owned by DC, because they're such a powerhouse they can keep it in business (yes, I know they just closed WS and that doesn't help my argument), but it's still better to have a powerful but temperamental backer than no backer at all. They just need to water the relationship down even more. As much as I love both characters, I don't want to see Zatanna talking to Constantine. Keep the DCU and the Vetigo U totally separate. "
That is how Vertigo was. Vertigo should be separate from the DCU.  The new regime does not see that.  At one period of time sure Zee and John where a cute couple.  The problem is John grew up and away from her.  The "fans" who want John and Zee to hook up are the "fans" who don't follow John Constantine or even Zatanna if you ask me.  Sure in Zee's secret Origin John is there and the relationship is suggested and in Neil Gaiman's Books of Magic Zee talks about her relationship with John.  The problem is Zee Time has been good to her, she is still as beautiful today as she was when she was created I believe it was like 30 years ago.  John Constantine, maybe the "Constant-One" but time has pasted for him.  He is in his 50s and not the dame man Zee was in a relationship with.  
 
This is also the same problem with Swamp Thing.  Swamp Thing changed so much away from the DCU.  Tefe is just as much John Constantine's daughter as she is Alec's. If you ask me, she is more John's.  The Vertigo characters should be limited interactions in the DCU.  Madame Xanadu was beautifully blending DCU with the Vertigo edge (many the most classic Vertigo title of the newer titles.)  yet Didiot canceled it because she is a DCU character.  There could be that balance, but DC is being greedy instead of being smart.
 
Sure having a big business backing you is nice financially. The problem is we can now see that this big backing is a double edge sword, while during Kahn and Levitz reign the sword had a blunt side.  money was important, but the story was as well. DC needs to get its focus in check.
#29 Posted by Silkcuts (5123 posts) - - Show Bio
@aztek the lost:  Congrats on the new job :D and I can tell that you really love Vertigo.  I wonder where you are getting you supply, some of the Vertigo books are rare and hard to find, yet you got your hands on them.  The Hellblazer collection alone is impressive and that is a feat I don't think many comicviners can claim.
 
@FadeToBlackBolt: Shoot is a great story.  I can understand why it was censored and I am glad it is now in print.  I read it when it was leaked years ago in its original black and white, I am excited to see it in color.
#30 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23238 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silkcuts said:
" @FadeToBlackBolt said:
" @aztek the lost said:
" @Krakoa said:
" Vertigo needs to split off from DC. DC's merit is that they aren't as openly P.T. Barum-like in their business like Marvel. DC is an ugly cancer infecting the purity of Vertigo and needs to be cut out. I don't get to follow as many titles as I'd like, but one need only pick up a current issue of Doom Patrol and compare it to the Doom Patrol of Grant Morrison's early days and know that they have been cheated.  "
QFT!  also, that recent Human Target sh!t was atrocious compared to what Milligan made "
Mmm, maybe. I like that it's owned by DC, because they're such a powerhouse they can keep it in business (yes, I know they just closed WS and that doesn't help my argument), but it's still better to have a powerful but temperamental backer than no backer at all. They just need to water the relationship down even more. As much as I love both characters, I don't want to see Zatanna talking to Constantine. Keep the DCU and the Vetigo U totally separate. "
That is how Vertigo was. Vertigo should be separate from the DCU.  The new regime does not see that.  At one period of time sure Zee and John where a cute couple.  The problem is John grew up and away from her.  The "fans" who want John and Zee to hook up are the "fans" who don't follow John Constantine or even Zatanna if you ask me.  Sure in Zee's secret Origin John is there and the relationship is suggested and in Neil Gaiman's Books of Magic Zee talks about her relationship with John.  The problem is Zee Time has been good to her, she is still as beautiful today as she was when she was created I believe it was like 30 years ago.  John Constantine, maybe the "Constant-One" but time has pasted for him.  He is in his 50s and not the dame man Zee was in a relationship with.    This is also the same problem with Swamp Thing.  Swamp Thing changed so much away from the DCU.  Tefe is just as much John Constantine's daughter as she is Alec's. If you ask me, she is more John's.  The Vertigo characters should be limited interactions in the DCU.  Madame Xanadu was beautifully blending DCU with the Vertigo edge (many the most classic Vertigo title of the newer titles.)  yet Didiot canceled it because she is a DCU character.  There could be that balance, but DC is being greedy instead of being smart.  Sure having a big business backing you is nice financially. The problem is we can now see that this big backing is a double edge sword, while during Kahn and Levitz reign the sword had a blunt side.  money was important, but the story was as well. DC needs to get its focus in check. "
Exactly. I agree completely. Just saying that I hope it remains owned by DC, I just hope that DC gets their priorities right as well.
#31 Posted by Silkcuts (5123 posts) - - Show Bio
@FadeToBlackBolt:  Glad we are on the same page. :D
#32 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23238 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silkcuts: Thumbs up :)
 
Although, I still hate that Zatanna and John knew eachother at all though. John is arguably the best supernatural combatant there is, existing in the same Universe as someone like Zatanna and Captain Marvel really diminishes his effect.
#33 Posted by Silkcuts (5123 posts) - - Show Bio
@FadeToBlackBolt:  That is why I pray Didiot is not stupid enough to cancel Hellblazer. Look at poor Tim Hunter.  He is forgotten.  Having John up in there as well will help no one out.  It will only cause complaints.
#34 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silkcuts: I do read some stuff at local libraries and such, but a lot of times I use online stores...you can find almost anything online I've learned...at the same time, I spend more on comics then is probably good for me. I also used to live in the US so the shipping costs weren't a problem. They are now and it sucks. 
 
Anything in particular you're looking for? 'Cause I could probably find it. Or maybe you already have it all? To be honest though, trades are my preference, I wish all Vertigo stuff was in trade, it's much more efficient.
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#35 Posted by Silkcuts (5123 posts) - - Show Bio
@aztek the lost:  Local Libraries are that good where you live?  I can see that online stores work for you.  Living in Canada, it is not always the best solution. A lot of my books I had to just hunt and hope to get lucky.  I spend too much on comics as well. In Toronto, we have a store called BMV which I have struck a lot of gold from.
 
As for particulars I will rack my brain and get back to you.  I don't have all the Vertigo out there, I have a lot, but not it all.  One day, one day.  I as well prefer trades.  There are some I will keep in singles, such as Extremist, but some I can't wait to convert into trade.  
#36 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silkcuts: Not that good, mostly just new stuff, unsurprisingly I found it was in the juvenile section shakes head 
 
Yeah, I was going to order some stuff the other day and the shipping caught me off guard. I could always order to family in the US who live a few hours a day but they disapprove of my comics so I chose not to. 
 
I dream of having the entire Vertigo catalog but that will be years from now I suspect...a new copy of My Faith in Frankie goes for 90+ bucks on Amazon, wtf?! The good thing about singles though is if they're old, they're usually pretty cheap.
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#37 Posted by Silkcuts (5123 posts) - - Show Bio
@aztek the lost said:
" @Silkcuts: Not that good, mostly just new stuff, unsurprisingly I found it was in the juvenile section shakes head  Yeah, I was going to order some stuff the other day and the shipping caught me off guard. I could always order to family in the US who live a few hours a day but they disapprove of my comics so I chose not to.  I dream of having the entire Vertigo catalog but that will be years from now I suspect...a new copy of My Faith in Frankie goes for 90+ bucks on Amazon, wtf?! The good thing about singles though is if they're old, they're usually pretty cheap. "
Yeaj, most librarians still think comics are strictly for kids.  I laughed when I read the article about two librarians being fired for having LoEG's Black dossier in the kids section.  I tried the family in the US  thing, but I hardly see that family and I want my books ASAP.  Thank God I got that trade for US cover.  I love that there are a few under-tapped places to buy comics in Toronto.  If I can find the trade cheap, want me to secure you one?
#38 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silkcuts: haha, that's hilarious, yeah, I remember my sister found Dark Entries in the kids section, haha! and actually, on Amazon it looks like a new copy has gone down to 60 bucks...the thing I find weird is the used copy is 3$...do you think that means its in bad condition or what's with the drastic price difference? do you know why its so expensive, I mean I love Carey, but I didn't know he was such a hot commodity
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#39 Posted by Silkcuts (5123 posts) - - Show Bio
@aztek the lost:  Dark entries in the kids sections.  Do libraries even read the books in their building before they put them out?  I guess not.
 
In honestly I haven't read my faith in Frankie yet.  The trade is a small digest and the series was normal comics.  I was trying to find the singles cheap so I can compare the two and see which one I prefer.  The trade is also black and white if I remember correctly, while the singles I never flipped them, so I wonder if they are in color.  Carey is becoming a huge name because of Unwritten... it is the new Harry Potter.  It is sad he is blowing up out of control now,  it should of happened with Crossing Midnight.
#40 Posted by Silkcuts (5123 posts) - - Show Bio
@aztek the lost:  The trade may also be expensive new because I believe it only had one printing and the quantities many be lower.  The cheaper used trade could be condition, never purchased in the secondary market on Amazon, so I really don't know how truthful they are.
#41 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silkcuts: wait, the trades in black and white? I'm pretty sure the issues are in color...if that's the case then I may just pass on the trade for now... 
 
yeah, looked it up and the series was in color...why would they not keep the trade in the same format? 
 
Carey's a favorite of mine because of Lucifer...but Unwritten is awesome, that last issue was great! still didn't think he was that big though...maybe I underestimate him...also, I've read the first two trades of CM, afraid about reading the last because I know a lot of the comics cancelled in that year had terribly cliffhangery and rushed endings
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#42 Posted by Silkcuts (5123 posts) - - Show Bio
@aztek the lost:  I'll get back to you on the trade, but I am pretty sure its in black and white since the manga Digest size I have never seen Vertigo do color for it.  Jill Thompson's books are both black and white and my faith in frankie is about the same size as those, if not the exact same size.
 
Lucifer is great and because of Lucifer, his Hellblazer is great, but something is off to me.  It was like he was using John to tell Lucifer like stories, hence creating his own set of kids for example.  CM does suffer that rushed ending, but it is carey, he is a great writer and I was satisfied, but still felt wronged by DC because the series was good.  Maybe the glossy paper was just to expensive, none of those glossy paper series lasted more then 3 or 4 trades.  So maybe it was just poor judgment in production. 
#43 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silkcuts: hmm, the Vertigo site says its black and white, that's too bad 
 
Lucifer's fantastic, loved seeing him appear in Hellblazer and John appear in Lucifer, both subtle nods, I liked it 
 
personally, I thought #200 was so fantastically done I didn't mind the idea of the kids, I realize the only purpose they ever served was to kill off friends that previous writers had accidentally not killed off, but it was still a good story IMO...and as far as writer's go, I felt he was the most respectful to previous runs in that he referenced them all, though others may see that as a bad thing...I mean Milligan hasn't referenced anything and his run is bloody fantastic! but yeah, I'll need to read CM, I read in an interview once that Carey thinks he didn't make what was going on clear enough early on and so people felt wary sticking around or something like that...I really hate when comic endings are ruined by cancellation...Greek Street seems doomed at this point due to lack of time to grow and wind down...I have hope for Unknown Soldier though and Madame Xanadu will go down with the same beauty it represented throughout its run
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#44 Posted by Silkcuts (5123 posts) - - Show Bio
@aztek the lost:  pity about the trade :S so looks like I need the singles too.
 
Carey's run was great, I don't argue that.  I just had a few problems to prevent it from being my favorite run. I agree carey does do a good job of giving nobs to past work, but diggle did the best to tie things together neatly.
 
CM was good, not great because of its cancellation.  It would of done better if J.H. Williams was doing interiors and not just covers.
 
I am scared to read this months Greek Street, I think I'll wait for the last issue and read them together.
 
Unknown Solider should wrap up nicely, even Joshua Dysart said he was given enough time to create an natural ending.  Madame Xanadu, I wonder what will happen there.
#45 Posted by Silkcuts (5123 posts) - - Show Bio

I still can't believe Pornsak was laid off.  He should be as irreplaceable as Karen Berger right now.  Did Vertigo not learn their lesson with Axel Alonso? 

#46 Posted by johnny_spam (2020 posts) - - Show Bio

First I have to say this It's the comic business making stupid decisions is a reality of it it has been since it's inception so I will never think of bad moves as a sign the industry is failing. With Vertigo I always considered it a way for people to get their voice out there and be known many of the landmark Vertigo creators from the past were either young or little known it didn't matter to people if it was a superhero comic book or something they made so with that if creators want to be seen by bigger audiences it can be any book. 
 
I will never understand why there is such a resistance against DC Vertigo characters returning to the DCU it seemed logical you can blame it on the current regime but bad moves have been made all the time even Paul Levitz has alienated creators from DC Comics and that is how it works. With DC and Marvel I see them similar to tv networks while other creator owned books are films started by the makers so there needs to be some difference in how they work.  
 
Allot of this is also on fan response if more people bought these comics from Vertigo then the imprint would be bigger but it is such a sad trend of the industry that readers go where some place is popular a couple of years ago more noteworthy creators worked there and it was more known I am not sure that the current guys there have the "buzz" needed for them to stay. 

#47 Posted by Silkcuts (5123 posts) - - Show Bio
@johnny spam:  The main resistance with DCU Vertigo characters is that so much of the Characters grew past what they were in the DCU. To Bring them back would be a step back. Animal Man and Doom Patrol for example are no better now then they were in their twilight  at Vertigo. 
#48 Posted by Agent_November (50 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow now I really feel really bad that I never read Hellblazer, it sounds amazing! I am going to have to start reading it so i can celebrate John's next birthday...

#49 Posted by Silkcuts (5123 posts) - - Show Bio
@Agent_November said:
" Wow now I really feel really bad that I never read Hellblazer, it sounds amazing! I am going to have to start reading it so i can celebrate John's next birthday... "
Hellblazer is so under appreciated in the comic masses.  Check it out and I am sure you'll love it.
#50 Posted by Pizawle (1073 posts) - - Show Bio

Great write-up. 
 
The situation ATM is saddening. Series are getting canned, there are few new ones in site, Vertigo seems to be becoming smaller when considering its incredible history, it should be so much bigger by now. It is definitely not being handled properly or being respected as it should. However, at least some blame has to fall on the majority of people who read comics and the climate of buyers the industry has and encourages these days. You have an these wonderful, varied series being ignored.

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