Off My Mind: Vertigo's Death At DC, What Will This Mean?

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#51 Posted by cbishop (8223 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see a problem with it.  Vertigo was originally formed so DC had a mature reader imprint, and explore whatever they wanted to.  Marvel has their MAX line for that, the MAX titles are fully tied into the Marvel Universe, and it works just fine.  When the Punisher's in his MAX title, we see heads explode and intestines hang out.  When he's in Captain America, we maybe see a tiny spurt of something in silhouette fly from a head as a character falls over backwards.  No biggie. 
 
Point is: there's no longer a reason to keep the Vertigo books separate from the DC books.  Sandman (either of them) can still have their Vertigo titles, and still appear in DC books.  This isn't a big deal at all.

#52 Posted by mattydeNero (526 posts) - - Show Bio

This is garbage.  ACTION COMICS = Superman related stories.  I mean, no one that reads mainstream titles reads SANDMAN for the most part.  This won't last long....I friggin hope.
#53 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio
@cbishop said:
"

I don't see a problem with it.  Vertigo was originally formed so DC had a mature reader imprint, and explore whatever they wanted to.  Marvel has their MAX line for that, the MAX titles are fully tied into the Marvel Universe, and it works just fine.  When the Punisher's in his MAX title, we see heads explode and intestines hang out.  When he's in Captain America, we maybe see a tiny spurt of something in silhouette fly from a head as a character falls over backwards.  No biggie. 
 
Point is: there's no longer a reason to keep the Vertigo books separate from the DC books.  Sandman (either of them) can still have their Vertigo titles, and still appear in DC books.  This isn't a big deal at all.

"
Max and Vertigo shouldn't be compared at all...Max has good stories true but it's more about allowing violence and sex...Vertigo is about creator-owned stories, comics that can explore themes not normally associated with the genre...the point is the character's lose what makes them great when you take them out of the universe where they were allowed to flourish in and are instead used for sales
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#54 Posted by Crom-Cruach (8867 posts) - - Show Bio
@aztek the lost said:
" Vertigo is about creator-owned stories, comics that can explore themes not normally associated with the genre...the point is the character's lose what makes them great when you take them out of the universe where they were allowed to flourish in and are instead used for sales "
this...
#55 Posted by SirSparkington (342 posts) - - Show Bio
@aztek the lost said:
" @SirSparkington said:
" From the headline I thought that they were shutting down Vertigo. Thankfully I was wrong. "
the day they shut down Vertigo don't be surprised if you also coincidentally hear news of the DC offices burning to the ground "
If the person who happened to burn down DC's office needed an alibi, I'm sure that could be arranged with said person.
#56 Posted by cjhanz (178 posts) - - Show Bio

i would say it would just be a cameo. but in neil giamans sandman vol one he goes to scott free (mr miricle)  and asks him bout the dream stone also to the jli satilite where john jonzz is staying.  he even fights doctor destiny in it and i would class him as being DC because he was in the JLU cartoon.  also JLA comics not so long ago where the leigion of superheros comes back thru time to bring wally west back to life. where they take away his hold on dream girl and she tells doctor destiny that hes lost the dreamstone and the owner (NEIL GIAMANS SANDMAN) was going to torture him for the rest of eternity in the dream relm  or sumthin like that
#57 Edited by cbishop (8223 posts) - - Show Bio
@aztek the lost said:

Max and Vertigo shouldn't be compared at all...Max has good stories true but it's more about allowing violence and sex...Vertigo is about creator-owned stories, comics that can explore themes not normally associated with the genre...the point is the character's lose what makes them great when you take them out of the universe where they were allowed to flourish in and are instead used for sales "


I couldn't disagree more.  More sex, violence and language in the comics is *exactly* why Vertigo was formed, originally.  The "Mature Readers" logo was receiving a negative backlash at the time, so DC came up with the Vertigo imprint.  These books didn't need the "Mature Readers" tag on the cover, because the Vertigo logo was an automatic signal that the book had mature material.  It was only after the wild success of the offbeat storylines of Sandman and Swamp Thing that Vertigo saw the value in pursuing other non-superhero, mature, and sometimes creator-owned titles.  Vertigo has handled Doom Patrol, Shade the Changing Man, Sandman (Wesley Dodds), Sandman (of the Dreaming), Swamp Thing, Black Orchid, Uncle Sam, the Human Target, the Unknown Soldier, Jonah Hex, and probably a few that I'm forgetting, that are all owned by DC.  Vertigo is owned by DC.  It is not about creator-owned stories - it is *also* about creator-owned stories. 
 
As for losing "what makes them great," I point you back to my earlier Punisher example.  I think they can work well in both Vertigo *and* DC, the same way MAX works with Marvel.  I don't think we're seeing the destruction of Vertigo here.  I think what we're seeing now is a move towards the Vertigo characters being able to move back and forth between Vertigo and DC*.    I think we're seeing the breakdown of the wall between Vertigo and DC.  Before, when a character was at Vertigo, it was *not* at DC.  It wasn't until after Sandman ended that any of the Dreaming appeared in DC books.  Doom Patrol didn't come back to DC until their Vertigo title ended.  I think this is just a more flexible policy being set in place, and I don't think it's going to hurt the characters at all.  It didn't hurt any of the MAX characters, over at Marvel, including Punisher, Daredevil, Captain America, Cage, War Machine, Fantastic Four *and* Spider-Man. 
 
Also, allowing DC's characters to move back and forth between DC and Vertigo doesn't mean that the quality of the creator-owned projects will suffer.  There's room for both.
 
*When I talk about the Vertigo characters moving back-and-forth, I'm talking about the Vertigo characters owned by DC, not the creator-owned characters, such as Fables (although the beauty of creator-owned characters is that Willingham *could* crossover the Fables characters with DC, if he wanted [not that I think that's a good idea - just an example]).
#58 Posted by Gothic Storm (842 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree that this is a direct result of a drop in sales at DC, but to be honest I haven't really payed much attention to the Death character since those early days of Sandman in the 90s. I think she's a great character and all, but she seemed to have faded away for awhile there. DC is trying every outlet to pull readers away from Marvel's 'big movie projects' which have been pulling in long-time abandoned readers of the Avengers. Soon there will be a new generation of comic book reads moving in.  And for once in my lifetime these readers will be more familiar with the characters on the big screen than the ones in the printed pages.

#59 Edited by etragedy (1081 posts) - - Show Bio

There are more cases of crossover between the two imprints than G-Man mentions - they weren't originally even separate "universes" - from Sandman alone, I recall the Justice League (at least Batman and Green Lantern), and of course the original Golden Age Sandman, and not just Arkha Asylum, but some of it's denizens such as Scarecrow, oh, and Cain and Abel and Element Girl, and (as someone reminded me in a review) Prez... and on and on... basically anyone Gaiman (or in some cases other Vertigo writers) wanted to pluck from D.C. obscurity and totally mess with and the D.C. staff didn't care because they were basically inactive characters.
 
Now if Vertigo characters are allowed to reap that kind of havoc on D.C.'s mainstream continuity - I'M ALL FOR IT!!! 
 
But you know they're never going to allow that to happen. They're just throwing them in to boost sales and then they'll leave not making any mark upon mainstream continuity.
 
Which sucks.
 
You think the Death of Superman storyline sucked?
What if it had just been Death coming and grabbing hold of Superman's hand.
Poof.
Gone in a whisper - no big D.C. 'event'.
No evil scheme of Luthor's.
Just one day a cute Gothy girl shows up and tugs on his cape and says, 'Time to go'.

#60 Posted by OmegaDynasty (9190 posts) - - Show Bio

Not like they haven't used The Endless in Cameo's before. 
 

 

Destiny
#61 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio
@OmegaDynasty said:
"
Not like they haven't used The Endless in Cameo's before. 
 


Destiny "
uh, just so you know, that appearance came before The Endless existed in comics...Destiny is the only member of the Endless Gaiman did not create, he used him later and turned him into one of the Endless but in this story he was just the guy who narrated horror comics
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#62 Posted by G-Man (34330 posts) - - Show Bio
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#63 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio
@cbishop said:

" I couldn't disagree more.  More sex, violence and language in the comics is *exactly* why Vertigo was formed, originally.  The "Mature Readers" logo was receiving a negative backlash at the time, so DC came up with the Vertigo imprint.  These books didn't need the "Mature Readers" tag on the cover, because the Vertigo logo was an automatic signal that the book had mature material.  It was only after the wild success of the offbeat storylines of Sandman and Swamp Thing that Vertigo saw the value in pursuing other non-superhero, mature, and sometimes creator-owned titles.  Vertigo has handled Doom Patrol, Shade the Changing Man, Sandman (Wesley Dodds), Sandman (of the Dreaming), Swamp Thing, Black Orchid, Uncle Sam, the Human Target, the Unknown Soldier, Jonah Hex, and probably a few that I'm forgetting, that are all owned by DC.  Vertigo is owned by DC.  It is not about creator-owned stories - it is *also* about creator-owned stories.  As for losing "what makes them great," I point you back to my earlier Punisher example.  I think they can work well in both Vertigo *and* DC, the same way MAX works with Marvel.  I don't think we're seeing the destruction of Vertigo here.  I think what we're seeing now is a move towards the Vertigo characters being able to move back and forth between Vertigo and DC*.    I think we're seeing the breakdown of the wall between Vertigo and DC.  Before, when a character was at Vertigo, it was *not* at DC.  It wasn't until after Sandman ended that any of the Dreaming appeared in DC books.  Doom Patrol didn't come back to DC until their Vertigo title ended.  I think this is just a more flexible policy being set in place, and I don't think it's going to hurt the characters at all.  It didn't hurt any of the MAX characters, over at Marvel, including Punisher, Daredevil, Captain America, Cage, War Machine, Fantastic Four *and* Spider-Man.  Also, allowing DC's characters to move back and forth between DC and Vertigo doesn't mean that the quality of the creator-owned projects will suffer.  There's room for both. *When I talk about the Vertigo characters moving back-and-forth, I'm talking about the Vertigo characters owned by DC, not the creator-owned characters, such as Fables (although the beauty of creator-owned characters is that Willingham *could* crossover the Fables characters with DC, if he wanted [not that I think that's a good idea - just an example]). "

Well, I wasn't reading comics back in '93 when the imprint was launched so I can't claim to know everything but I do see some errors in what you said. For one thing, Vertigo has always said Suggested for Mature Readers on the cover and in fact still does to this day so the imprint logo didn't replace that at all. Secondly, in its very first month of existence Vertigo launched a non-superhero, mature, title taking place outside of the DC universe called Enigma. I don't believe Peter Milligan has ownership of it but then again he was working on it years before the imprint launched. However by month #2 we had Mercy which has no ties to DCU and was owned by JM DeMatteis and Paul Johnson, the next month Sebastian O came out, owned by Grant Morrison and Steve Yeowell, etc.
 
I'm not denying Vertigo did a lot of work with DC owned characters and took them from DC, and even stories like the current Unknown Soldier or The Losers (of the recent film) which both feature characters that never appeared in any DC comic are still owned by DC. But maybe I should have made myself clearer with an "and" rather then a comma. The "comics that can explore themes not normally associated with the genre" was in reference to the stories exactly like Sandman, Sandman Mystery Theatre, Human Target, Animal Man, Shade the Changing Man, Doom Patrol, etc. which take DC characters but put them in directions that would never be explored in the DC universe. And when DC has taken their characters back before they've undone all the change Vertigo brought about: examples being Doom Patrol, Human Target and Animal Man. I'm not talking about how technically a lot of these themes were explored in the DC universe back in the 80's and early 90's because the Vertigo imprint's creation meant those kind of titles no longer were a part of the DCU and they haven't been since, certainly not currently.
 
However, DC has every right to do with the character's what they will, it's just they've screwed over others before so I'm not excited to see it, even if this appearance is great (and I will read it) I just don't support DC in enforcing their power to use these characters because they never seem to do it well and I feel that's an insult to well, everyone. They seem to ignore the Vertigo stuff as continuity...I'm sure if they ever brought Shade the Changign Man abck to DC he'd still be looking like this:
 


Which is my way of saying DC likes to "take the piss" on the great strides Vertigo has made.
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#64 Posted by PieFace (6 posts) - - Show Bio
@johnny spam: Point of order: this isn't just a rumor, the story was posted on the Source blog yesterday, and that image up there is the proposed cover for the issue. It's a'happenin'
#65 Posted by johnny_spam (2035 posts) - - Show Bio
@PieFace: I was referring to the rumor that the all the former DC Vertigo characters would return to the DCU properly Paul Cornell said in a interview he is using Death and he has no idea what if any plans DC has on the other Vertigo DC characters. 
#66 Posted by IronSpidy-Rooney (356 posts) - - Show Bio

Could love b in the air

#67 Posted by cbishop (8223 posts) - - Show Bio

@aztek the lost: 
Dangit, I tried to quote part of your reply, but the damned reply box was formatting my type as part of your reply.  Grr. 
 
Anyway, man, just wanted to say: my bad - you're absolutely right on that early history.  I was going completely off of memory for that reply, and obviously, my memory for Vertigo is Swiss cheese.  I'd have sworn they dropped the "mature readers" label once they had the Vertigo logo.  I get my Vertigo stuff by trade paperback, and don't pay much attention to those covers. <shrugs> I goofed. 

#68 Posted by TheBug (1111 posts) - - Show Bio

I dunno, some of the best Sandman moments involved DC characters, and Vertigo's Animal Man was awesome. However DC hasn't really been at its best the last two years, and I'd rather not see Vertigo sink with it.
#69 Posted by Mbecks14 (2068 posts) - - Show Bio

oh the apathy

#70 Posted by cadaver (143 posts) - - Show Bio
@aztek the lost said:
" @johnny spam: John Constantine has been used consistently actually and in fact Shade the Changing Man is in his title right now "
I wouldn't mind Constantine showing up in Zatanna's new title to be honest. I think they have unfinished business together, and if her father Zatara has indeed been resurrected he might want some words with Constantine too. lol.
#71 Posted by OMEGAdam (2 posts) - - Show Bio

Relax, everyone, the blending of DC and Vertigo is a good sign. DC gets more of an edge, while Vertigo actually gets some continuity. Kid Eternity's Vertigo backstory blended into the DCU just fine. And on top of that, Death isn't the first Endless to show up in the DCU. (Daniel Hall, the new Dream, crossed over with the Justice League.)
 
Sure, die-hard Vertigo fans don't seem the type to read DC, but how many do you know of these days? Read any current titles of their's?

#72 Posted by Blackestnight (640 posts) - - Show Bio

i like it

#73 Posted by RobertG (46 posts) - - Show Bio

I like it too.  My favorite Vertigo characters like the Endless and Tim Hunter haven't been doing much at all in the Vertigo books, I'll take them where I can get them.  These characters already had connections in their past stories with the DC Universe, so I fail to see what the big deal is now.
#74 Posted by ahumancartoon (368 posts) - - Show Bio

Color me intrigued, I'll be getting this issue, but let me get this straight, are you trying to say it's okay for DC characters to show up in a Vertigo title but not for the reverse?

#75 Posted by Backslash (8 posts) - - Show Bio

If I remember correctly, Death appeared in the DC Universe through Legion of Super-Heroes v.4 #38. 

#76 Posted by excalibur5150 (126 posts) - - Show Bio

I love it!  I always think that's a lot easier for Vertigo characters to show up in Mainstream DC than the other way around.   I always think of the Vertigo books as the inner circle of characters that see things most DCU residents will never see and I see the DCU books as public knowledge that every DCU resident is aware of. 
 
To see Death finally crossover I say what took DC so long!
#77 Posted by touch37 (56 posts) - - Show Bio

Swear to god if Lex gets the same obsession with Death as Deadpool has with Lady Death over in the Marvel universe, I'll produce a brick, right there in the comic shop.
#78 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio

I guess we all know what this means now...DC is done associating itself with Vertigo

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#79 Posted by Michael11 (1 posts) - - Show Bio

It's also worth pointing out that Despair of the Endless proposes that Rao (Krypton's red sun) spare one of it's lifeforms at the time of his demise in Endless Nights, and in that case Superman's origin has deep ties to the Endless, if that makes it any less bizarre.

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