Venom/Spider-man now?

#1 Edited by Strider92 (16432 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok ever since the 90's TAS there has been a common misconception that the symbiote enhanced Spider-man's abilities. In the comic-verse we know that back when Spider-man first had the suit it did nothing of the sort and simply gave him organic webbing. When it detached from Spider-man it replicated Spider-mans abilities and gave them to Brock who being more muscly than Spider-man had a slight strength advantage (about 15 tons compared to Spidey's 11 tons I think?).

Then we had Mac Gargan who although not very popular with Venom fans was a lot stronger than Eddie (40ton mark if i remember rightly). So my question is although the Venom suit didn't enhance Spider-man at all the first time during the Secret Wars and after would that be the same case now? We've only seen Venom get stronger as it went from host to host (with the exception of Angelo and Flash for obvious reasons).

If the symbiote did rebond with Spider-man would it be the same as in the Secret Wars and give him nothing but organic webbing again or would it actually enhance Spider-man to the levels that are always misconstrued?

#2 Posted by Kallarkz (3303 posts) - - Show Bio

I wasn't into spiderman much back then but i have always been led to believe it did enhance him. What is there that says the contrary. Actual scans.

#3 Edited by GrandSymbiote94 (11659 posts) - - Show Bio

Eddie Brock stated that the Venom symbiote wouldn't enhance Spider-Man's strength or powers because he already had powers. He also said that the symbiote enhances someone without powers a certain amount.(Can't remember right now I don't have the issue on me.) That's why he was constantly increasing his strength. (I believe he was capable of lifting 1 ton without the symbiote.)

#4 Edited by Strider92 (16432 posts) - - Show Bio

@GrandSymbiote94 said:

Eddie Brock stated that the Venom symbiote wouldn't enhance Spider-Man's strength or powers because he already had powers. He also said that the symbiote enhances someone without powers a certain amount.(Can't remember right now I don't have the issue on me.) That's why he was constantly increasing his strength. (I believe he was capable of lifting 1 ton without the symbiote.)

Mac Gargan still had his powers from being the Scorpion though and rather than stay at his 11-13tonner range it enhanced him to a 40tonner. Believe it was even stated the only reason he reached the 40ton mark was because of his extra super-human strength.

#5 Edited by GrandSymbiote94 (11659 posts) - - Show Bio
@Strider92 said:

@GrandSymbiote94 said:

Eddie Brock stated that the Venom symbiote wouldn't enhance Spider-Man's strength or powers because he already had powers. He also said that the symbiote enhances someone without powers a certain amount.(Can't remember right now I don't have the issue on me.) That's why he was constantly increasing his strength. (I believe he was capable of lifting 1 ton without the symbiote.)

Mac Gargan still had his powers from being the Scorpion though and rather than stay at his 11-13tonner range it enhanced him to a 40tonner

Writers mistake?
 
Also a lot of other things have bothered me about the powers that the symbiote gives the host. What happened to the invisibility, shields, or other powers that Brock had used from when he was Venom? 
#6 Posted by htb106 (1641 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it would give him lots more power.

this'd be a good story, the symbiote rebonds with spidey and spidey goes insane because he has so much power...

#7 Edited by Strider92 (16432 posts) - - Show Bio

@GrandSymbiote94 said:

Writers mistake? Also a lot of other things have bothered me about the powers that the symbiote gives the host. What happened to the invisibility, shields, or other powers that Brock had used from when he was Venom?

I believe that is simply because Brock was the only host (so far) that actually achieved harmony with the symbiote. Thus allowing him more control over it. Every other host has either: limited its abilities, annoyed it(Gargan), been to weak to use them, etc..

Brock managed to live on a desert island for a long time when he thought he'd killed Spider-man and the symbiote didn't even attempt to drain him as we've seen it do to others.

#8 Edited by GrandSymbiote94 (11659 posts) - - Show Bio
@Strider92 said:

I believe that is simply because Brock was the only host (so far) that actually achieved harmony with the symbiote. Thus allowing him more control over it. Every other host has either: limited its abilities, annoyed it(Gargan), been to weak to use them, etc..

Brock managed to live on a desert island for a long time when he thought he'd killed Spider-man and the symbiote didn't even attempt to drain him as we've seen it do to others.

True. But how do we know if Venom ever truly bonds with a host? Flash has stated to have bonded with Venom while he was going AWOL.
#9 Edited by Strider92 (16432 posts) - - Show Bio

@GrandSymbiote94 said:

True. But how do we know if Venom ever truly bonds with a host? Flash has stated to have bonded with Venom while he was going AWOL.

I think that might be the writers confusion as we've seen what happens with true symbiotic bonding thanks to Kasady. As soon as Carnage was separated from him he began to die. Brock was also shown to have a LOT stronger bond than any of the next hosts as the symbiote refused to leave Eddie even when Spider-man hit it with sonics. I believe Spider-man said he'd have to kill Brock to get the symbiote to separate from him willingly.

What happens to Flash seems more like the Symbiote just taking control rather than actual bonding.

#10 Edited by The_Madness (98 posts) - - Show Bio

The symbiote learns and replicates powers from its hosts, so when Venom(symbiote) bonds with Spider-man in Secret Wars you should look at him as a blank slate only knowing basic symbiote stuff. While bonded with Spider-man he learned all of Spider-mans powers(powers which he already posessed so he doesn't become any stronger, despite the 90's cartoon interpretation.) Next the symbiote bonds with Eddie, the symbiote informs Eddie, the stronger he is the stronger 'we' are, so Eddie works out heavily, adding about another ton of strength to the symbiote in addition to the spider powers. In Venom the Madness, the symbiote bonds with the Mercury Virus granting him incredible strength, enough to go toe-to-toe with Juggernaut. He releases the Mercury Virus at the end of the story arc, but as we know Venom keeps the powers of his host, this is very important part alot of people forget. From this point on Venom is HUGE! This is the story arc where he gets all the bulk and strength. Next host Angelo, maybe a minor strength increase but nothing significant, I mean look at Angelo! Then Mac Gargan, its undeniable that Mac Gargan's Scorpion strength is now also added to the strength of the symbiote.

So now that he's on Flash he has the powers of: Spider-man, Eddie, The Mercury Virus, Angelo(nothing) AND Mac Gargan. Not to mention the symbiote has also consumed the Carnage symbiote(and his own clone symbiote if you count that but I don't.) That its why we see all the power in the symbiote, it copies DNA from it's hosts. So originally it did not increase spider-man's strength being a black slate, but now it has powers from multiple sources. Now with the new Venom run I heard the symbiote bonded with Rulk, but I highly doubt we will see this power increase.

Now every symbiote born is stronger than the generation before it, Carnage clearly stronger than Venom at first, with DNA passed on has some of Spider-man's strength, and Carnage also gets a massive strength boost because the symbiote's feed off of adrenaline, and Cassidy is constantly on an adrenaline high. I would assume he has all the spider power's aswell after bonding with Ben Rielly, however Carnage prefers to use serial killer means when bonded with Carnage.

But as far as the Venom symbiotes strength there are no continuty errors as of yet. You just need to know he copies the DNA from his hosts and then follow his story.

So to answer your oringinal question, if the symbiote were to bond with Spider-man now it would without a doubt vastly increase his strength.

#11 Posted by Strider92 (16432 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Madness said:

So to answer your oringinal question, if the symbiote were to bond with Spider-man now it would without a doubt vastly increase his strength.

That's how I see it as well.

It would actually make a very interesting story having the Venom symbiote go back to Spider-man (As Parker is the only host it loves more than Brock. its already tried about 3 times to return to Peter if I remember rightly). Of course don't make the symbiote a permanent thing. They could have it drive Spidey mental and Brock, Flash and maybe a few of the Avengers have to separate them. I think that could make a good arc if done right.

#12 Posted by Mycroftian (109 posts) - - Show Bio

It didn't initially provide any kind of power boost, but as I recall later writers weren't really satisfied with the way Peter treated the symbiote, and wanted to give him more reason for getting rid of it, so later retellings and adaptations gave it the power enhancement and rage thing.

#13 Edited by The_Madness (98 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92: That could actually be interesting and a very deadly threat. I mean if you back Spider-man in a corner and make him desperate he's capable of almost anything. He almost beat Firelord(whose on par with Silver Surfer) to death with his bare hands until the Avengers pulled him off, can you imagine that kinda rage behind the now super charged symbiote with all of its power?

#14 Posted by venomoushatred1001 (12334 posts) - - Show Bio

@GrandSymbiote94 said:

@Strider92 said:

@GrandSymbiote94 said:

Eddie Brock stated that the Venom symbiote wouldn't enhance Spider-Man's strength or powers because he already had powers. He also said that the symbiote enhances someone without powers a certain amount.(Can't remember right now I don't have the issue on me.) That's why he was constantly increasing his strength. (I believe he was capable of lifting 1 ton without the symbiote.)

Mac Gargan still had his powers from being the Scorpion though and rather than stay at his 11-13tonner range it enhanced him to a 40tonner

Writers mistake? Also a lot of other things have bothered me about the powers that the symbiote gives the host. What happened to the invisibility, shields, or other powers that Brock had used from when he was Venom?

They are still there, just rarely used.

#15 Posted by VenomousDragon (852 posts) - - Show Bio

Well the gargan thing is easy to explain, Brock at his peak was 25 tons, Mac was 15, 15+25=40.

Originally the suit gave brock spidermans powers, so because parker already had them there was nothing to add. Brock was stronger because it was his strength plus spidermans, then it was revised so Brock was stronger because of his bulk he had more "spider powered muscle" if you will, then it He started making himself stronger without the suit so the stronger he was the stronger the suit made him. There is a scan of Brock actually saying that the stronger he is the stronger the suit makes him but i cant find it.

#16 Edited by ChaosMarvel (997 posts) - - Show Bio

I think its quite safe to say that if Parker wore the symbiote now after all the upgrades Venom has received he would be beyond awesome. This should happen in a Venom/Spider-man arc where spider-man gets possessed! Its perfectly plausible as the symbiote will drop any host to get back to Spider-man. I'm pretty sure if fully bonded only Parker could reach Venom's full potential due to their connection.

#17 Posted by Chaos Burn (1784 posts) - - Show Bio

Was it a symbiote Parker owre during 'Back in Black'? when Aunt May got shot

#18 Posted by danhimself (22534 posts) - - Show Bio

@GrandSymbiote94 said:

Eddie Brock stated that the Venom symbiote wouldn't enhance Spider-Man's strength or powers because he already had powers. He also said that the symbiote enhances someone without powers a certain amount.(Can't remember right now I don't have the issue on me.) That's why he was constantly increasing his strength. (I believe he was capable of lifting 1 ton without the symbiote.)

1 ton without the symbiote? He's still a normal person without it...no normal human being could ever lift that much no matter how much the trained

#19 Posted by GrandSymbiote94 (11659 posts) - - Show Bio

@danhimself: I don't know. It's been stated so many times I just went a long with it. I think in a handbook I had a long time ago also said, I got to find it later.

#20 Posted by danhimself (22534 posts) - - Show Bio

@GrandSymbiote94: the handbooks are usually garbage though

#21 Posted by GrandSymbiote94 (11659 posts) - - Show Bio

@danhimself: Tru.

#22 Posted by Strider92 (16432 posts) - - Show Bio

@Chaos Burn said:

Was it a symbiote Parker owre during 'Back in Black'? when Aunt May got shot

No that was just Spider-man wearing the cloth version of the black suit that Black Cat made for him. Also he was being enhanced by the "Other" at the time so his strength had gone from 11tons to 25tons.

#23 Posted by VenomousDragon (852 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92: I think that story arc was spawned out of someone wanting to give peter back the suit. brock was 25 tonner, BIB spiderman is a 25 tonner, Brock always refered to his symbiote as his other, Parker got his strength from his "Other", it made him more agressive just like the symbiote did and to top it off they put him in a cloth version of the symbiote.

#24 Posted by Strider92 (16432 posts) - - Show Bio

@VenomousDragon: That possibly could have been a Venom reference yes.

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