Ultimate Comics Spider-Man #24

Posted by inferiorego (24406 posts) - - Show Bio

The Good

The origin of Cloak and Dagger is explained. Gwen urges Miles to put the Spider-Man costume back on in order to help out those who need help.

I've never cared for Cloak and Dagger, up until this issue. Sure, it's the ultimate version here, but I just didn't ever find these two interesting. I never understood the appeal. However, that's changed. This issue revolves greatly around who these two are and how they became to be this (don't say dynamic...) dynamic duo (ugh). Bendis makes these character extremely interesting by showing us how these two high school sweethearts became the super-powered beings they are today.

Without getting too into detail, there's four people behind Cloak and Dagger, and I am super excited about every single one of them because I love their 616 counter-parts. It almost feels like Bendis is paying me fan-service by tapping into my brain... If so, thanks. This single issue really expands upon a lot of new characters and concepts.

Someone give David Marquez a gigantic high five. He is amazing on this issue. He has some dynamite page layouts on numerous pages here, but what really "wowed" me was the smoke effects for Cloak. At times, it looks like it was photoshopped, but I don't care. It's so cool and adds a whole new dimension to this character, even though this is the first time we've seen the Ultimate version of him.

Marquez is consistent at amazing art work. You should buy this book for the art alone. Luckily, there's a really good story attached to the wickedly awesome pictures within. In addition, Marquez is accompanied by some fantastic color work from Justin Ponsor. Ponsor nails it here. I know it should be something you expect in every issue of any book, but the lighting remains consistent to each individual scene. This art team is nothing short of phenomenal.

The Bad

That final page feels a bit awkwardly placed in the book. It feels like it needs a page or two prior to it, since the book is jumping between the past and present.

This book is still a year ahead of ULTIMATES and ULTIMATE X-MEN... It bugs me.

The Verdict

Between this issue and the events of another issue that ended today (nope, not saying what book), I am super-excited for the future of ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN. Bendis and Marquez (and Ponsor). This issue made two characters I've never really cared for likable... incredibly likable. I actually want to see what happens to Cloak and Dagger. I thought that would never happen. Now, we just have to wait for Miles to put the mask back on.

Overall, I highly recommend this issue.

Staff
#1 Posted by akbogert (3222 posts) - - Show Bio

See the problem is, I want to flip out and write this long thing about why it makes no sense not to adore Cloak & Dagger, but as I was writing my review today I honestly couldn't put my finger on why I love them. I mean, artistically they make for really great dynamics, and their abandoned-by-society-and-loved-by-no-one (not even the X-Men would take them) definitely strikes a chord. But that doesn't explain why I actively seek them out. *shrug*

Honestly, I don't think this Ultimate version diverged that greatly from the 616 so I'd say if you actually like them here you can probably find an enjoyable story with them from before. Either way, it's good to see them getting some attention and I hope this paves the way for more C&D fans.

#2 Edited by inferiorego (24406 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert: My problem is probably that they've been around for so long that I could never catch up and it felt like so much work to understand them. With this book, I'm on board since the beginning.

Staff
#3 Posted by akbogert (3222 posts) - - Show Bio

@inferiorego: The thing is they've been around for over 30 years but they haven't really been utilized a lot. They seem to show up randomly in team books or large-scale things but don't often get highlighted; I feel like the "definitive Cloak & Dagger stories" list is actually pretty small.

Their cameos in Runaways were nice, but the thing that jumps immediately to mind in terms of "hey, if someone's looking for a little bit more" would be the 3-issue Spider Island arc, since it does a miniature recap via character monologues before diving into their story in that crossover.

#4 Posted by Owie (3734 posts) - - Show Bio

I am a Cloak and Dagger fan, and enjoyed seeing them brought in here. They were pretty different from their 616 versions, especially Ty, but I liked it. I was also glad to see a way to make Dagger's costume have the dagger on her chest without having the most ridiculous cleavage-baring costume-cutout of any character like she normally has (especially since she started out as a 14 year old or so). I think they'd be a good recurring pair of characters to have in the book.

#5 Posted by akbogert (3222 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: Very good point -- the costume change was a great one.

I'd love to have a discussion about the differences (note that I said I didn't think they diverged greatly from 616, you said they were pretty different). Maybe in PM? Not sure if it'd qualify as on-topic here.

In any case I do hope to see more of them. Of course, after the end of Age of Ultron, I feel like all bets are off for the Ultimate universe right now.

#6 Posted by Owie (3734 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert said:

@owie: Very good point -- the costume change was a great one.

I'd love to have a discussion about the differences (note that I said I didn't think they diverged greatly from 616, you said they were pretty different). Maybe in PM? Not sure if it'd qualify as on-topic here.

In any case I do hope to see more of them. Of course, after the end of Age of Ultron, I feel like all bets are off for the Ultimate universe right now.

Sure, I'm glad to talk about them here or in PM. I don't think it's too off-topic for this thread, but either way. I guess Tandy isn't hugely different, although she's a New Yorker now and not from Ohio (IIRC). Ty was the big change for me, that really drastically changes his character--but in a way that I think could be interesting to explore. Basically, how will their relationship differ if Ty no longer sees himself as being so far below her in every way--race, class, education, ability to speak without stuttering, powers? I didn't read the Spider Island series or the Runaways appearances, but at least back in the day Cloak was always filled with self-hatred with how dependent he was on her, and how inferior he felt. If he now sees himself as her equal, that's a big change in dynamic. (Of course this could well be their relationship in 616 now too since I haven't read the more recent stuff.)

I liked your point about there being only a handful of definitive C&D stories.

#7 Posted by akbogert (3222 posts) - - Show Bio

@owie: I feel like if they tried to pass the black guy off as being inferior (or thinking himself inferior) to the white blonde girl today that'd be a lot harder to get away with. It's actually funny though -- if you read the review I linked to in my first post, I worried about how different their dynamic would be and noted the social upgrade Ty received here. I think they've come to accept and even embrace their interdependence; the Cloak & Dagger one-shot from 2010 (Cloak and Dagger #1 - The Broken Church) actually showed Tandy as the needier one, in my opinion (that's another good issue for folks, by the way, as it's a solo issue!).

I think both of them have had trouble dealing with the fact that they are sort of stuck together whether they really wanted to be or not. It was more interesting to me when there wasn't a romance angle at all (my biggest gripe with the Ultimate version, honestly), but even people who like each other enough to go to prom don't necessarily bank on spending a lifetime tied to someone else by powers beyond their control.

I suspect that Ultimate Cloak will be less broody than 616 Cloak. Otherwise I'm hoping, based on the roles they played and their dialogue during this fight, that the general dynamic between them remains similar.

#8 Posted by HollowPrince65 (143 posts) - - Show Bio

This series lulled a bit during that Divided We Fall and United We Stand events and now that Miles is back to only dealing with his own issues, I love him even more. Its not a simple "I dow wanna be Spider-man" temper tantrum. Its a great character development driven story. I cannot wait to see him put on the mask again and meet up with Cloak and Dagger.

#9 Edited by w0nd (3388 posts) - - Show Bio

Gwen pisses me off, actually it pisses me off when any superhero gets told what to do with their life. "You have the power, it's your responsibility to stop bad guys now" Well Gwen it's your responsibility to become a cop or join the army in that case instead of working in a diner.

#10 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

I've never been a fan of Cloak & Dagger, at all to be frank. But this issue really had me interested for the characters for the first time since I heard about them years ago and their origin story was one that was told in a fresh manner and one that is easy to follow without being entirely predictable.

Ultimate Spider-Man continually proves to be my favourite Spider-Man title on the market. Fantastic review Mat!

Moderator
#11 Posted by akbogert (3222 posts) - - Show Bio

@w0nd said:

Gwen pisses me off, actually it pisses me off when any superhero gets told what to do with their life. "You have the power, it's your responsibility to stop bad guys now" Well Gwen it's your responsibility to become a cop or join the army in that case instead of working in a diner.

You're pissed off because someone's telling Spider-Man that with great power comes great responsibility?

Of all things?

#12 Posted by UrbanChill (228 posts) - - Show Bio

am i the only one not really enjoying this book much anymore ?

#13 Edited by tximinoman (243 posts) - - Show Bio

I really enjoyed this issue. Cloak and Dagger are awesome, love their new dynamic (I love how Bendis write teenagers) and Gwen's slap was the greatest thing. I understand why Miles doesn't want to become Spider-Man again, he's not Peter so he hasn't have his guilt (wich was one of the main reasons Spider-Man kept being Spider-Man) and he's a kid so it's a lot harder to deal with his mother's death but... he have to get his shit together. Life sucks, bad things happen all that time, that's how life works for everyone, even if you are not a superhero. But the thing about being a superhero is that superheroes can't quit, they simply can't, they have to act like fucking superheroes and get up every time they fall.

I love how Benids is developing Miles character and how diferent he is from Peter but since last issue that I was waiting for someone to slap him like Gwen did in this one. Can't wait for the next issue.

#14 Posted by Owie (3734 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert: Just checked out your review--nice writing. I pretty much agree with everything you wrote in there. Certainly it would come off badly these days with Ty being the illiterate black teen who must be helped by the rich white girl (although I think they did a nice job playing with those stereotypes back in the day). And I agree that Dagger is really also dependent on Cloak; she has her own neediness that's born of high-society ideas of inadequacy and her difficulties with her parents. They do work better as friends than in a romantic relationship, although that potential was always there.

One of the things that really impressed me with the early C&D was the way they dealt with edgy social issues like child prostitution, poverty, and drugs in a way that wasn't pandering or generic, and was especially surprising for the early 80s. They really gave a face to those issues. I give a lot of credit to Bill Mantlo, who I think is an undersung writer but did a lot of really good work back then. He was just such a humanist when it came to his writing. If you want to read a good article on him, check this out. It talks a lot about his writing, and also his accident and subsequent nightmare of a life in nursing homes. The last few pages are mostly just health care policy stuff (until the last paragraph, which is worth it), but the beginning is really evocative.

#15 Edited by mrkareemruiz (39 posts) - - Show Bio

LOVE THIS COMIC, ITS GREAT.

#16 Posted by Drewyetti (67 posts) - - Show Bio

@urbanchill: How comes you're not enjoying the book anymore? Sure there are things they should have like make miles 16 years old in two years (like he was 13-14 in year one, 14-15 in year two and he'll turn 16 in the first issue of spider-man no-more story arc). Im gonna wait and see for further developments.

#17 Edited by kid Apollo (714 posts) - - Show Bio

can someone spoiler block or pm me who the 'four people behind Cloak and Dagger' are?

i jus had to pay for school so im broke til the end of the month and cant wait that long to find out

#18 Posted by lady_toyano (162 posts) - - Show Bio

@w0nd: Preach! I totally was thinking the same thing. Some people.

#20 Edited by w0nd (3388 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert said:

@w0nd said:

Gwen pisses me off, actually it pisses me off when any superhero gets told what to do with their life. "You have the power, it's your responsibility to stop bad guys now" Well Gwen it's your responsibility to become a cop or join the army in that case instead of working in a diner.

You're pissed off because someone's telling Spider-Man that with great power comes great responsibility?

Of all things?

No im mad at Gwen because she forced her ideals on him. That wasn't "telling" him she smacked him in the face and demanded he did it, there is a difference between a kind hearted speech, and being smacked in the face. And you know that. Like i said what does she do? She works at a diner, the last place I would want to hear that speech from is a diner girl.

For the sake of the story miles has to be spider-man but in reality the only thing he owes himself is to be there for his friends and family. His mom didn't die because he "failed" to use his powers for good she died because he was doing just that, Peter is a different story, he ignored the crime and his uncle died because of it. Miles didn't ignore it and his mother died.

#21 Edited by tximinoman (243 posts) - - Show Bio

@w0nd: he needed that slap. Life's not pretty and things doesn't work as you wish they'll do. Sometimes bad things happen and what makes a diference between people and heroes is that heroes always get up. No matter how fucked the things get, they always get up again and fight back.

I know Miles is young, I know his mother died, but he wanted to be a hero, he wanted to be the new Spider-Man and if he wanted that he can't quit. Heroes doesn't quit. Never. That's what make them heroes.

#22 Edited by w0nd (3388 posts) - - Show Bio

@tximinoman:

life is not pretty but like i said if some diner girl who accomplished nothing with herself told me what I HAVE to do would be like wtf who are you to tell me what I HAVE to be doing? the only person im obligated to taking care of is my family. Everyone seems to be forgetting he has had literally 0 training, but they expect him to run out there and save the day. Worked out pretty well for Pete. He was a boy playing hero, nick fury was a guy egging on this boy playing hero

here is a costume, go have fun...

the reason his mother died was because he was spider-man, not because he wasn't being spider-man, flip side to uncle ben dying because peter wasn't being spiderman

I am not saying miles should stop being spider-man I am just saying what Gwen did was annoying the way she handled it was annoying. If someone who actually accomplished something with their life gave me the speech it would be different, not the same girl who held a gun to peter's head, and ran away from hom because she couldn't handle the "Craziness"

#23 Posted by ComicAddict2814 (66 posts) - - Show Bio

Can someone please inform me how Comic Vine users can vote on these issues using the 5 star system? We used to just click the amount of stars we felt the comic deserved. I cannot figure out how we can put our input in. Thanks.

#25 Posted by tximinoman (243 posts) - - Show Bio

@w0nd said:

@tximinoman:

life is not pretty but like i said if some diner girl who accomplished nothing with herself told me what I HAVE to do would be like wtf who are you to tell me what I HAVE to be doing? the only person im obligated to taking care of is my family. Everyone seems to be forgetting he has had literally 0 training, but they expect him to run out there and save the day. Worked out pretty well for Pete. He was a boy playing hero, nick fury was a guy egging on this boy playing hero

here is a costume, go have fun...

the reason his mother died was because he was spider-man, not because he wasn't being spider-man, flip side to uncle ben dying because peter wasn't being spiderman

I am not saying miles should stop being spider-man I am just saying what Gwen did was annoying the way she handled it was annoying. If someone who actually accomplished something with their life gave me the speech it would be different, not the same girl who held a gun to peter's head, and ran away from hom because she couldn't handle the "Craziness"

You got it all wrong, if someone like Gwen get to slap you because you're not doing what you should be doing... you don't think "who the fuck are you to tell me what I HAVE to be doing?" what you should think is "wow... even this loser who doesn't know me at all knows that I'm being a quitter and a pussy, maybe I should put my shit together once and for all and start being a fucking hero".

His best friend keep telling him he should be Spider-man again, Spider-woman (who didn't respect him as a hero at first) not only has acknowledged him at last, but has told him to be Spider-Man again. Gwen slaped him because she cares and because she knows (as everyone else knows) what he should be doing.

In my opinion Miles was asking for that slap. And being Gwen the one who gave him that slap just make it so much better, because even people who doesn't know him very well know he's doing the wrong thing by quiting.

#26 Edited by Drewyetti (67 posts) - - Show Bio

@tximinoman: However, peter didn't have training and he manage to pick up the superhero activities very well although miles is not peter just himself.

#27 Edited by w0nd (3388 posts) - - Show Bio

@drewyetti said:

@tximinoman: However, peter didn't have training and he manage to pick up the superhero activities very well although miles is not peter just himself.

"You got it all wrong, if someone like Gwen get to slap you because you're not doing what you should be doing... you don't think "who the fuck are you to tell me what I HAVE to be doing?" what you should think is "wow... even this loser who doesn't know me at all knows that I'm being a quitter and a pussy, maybe I should put my shit together once and for all and start being a fucking hero".

yes i got my "opinion" all wrong...

no that's not what I would be thinking...considering this person has done nothing I would once again questions why this person who did nothing is telling me what to do, and gtfo with my dad before he dies too. it's a matter of opinion my friend, simple as that. Spider woman is a whole other story, notice how i didn't complain about her or Ganke? because I would respect what they are saying, I am saying GWEN annoyed me, not the fact she wants him to be spider-man. Once again matter of opinion.

go get your mom killed, then tell me if you feel you should be playing super hero still? or would you go get training and get your shit together first?

miles can't even make webfluid...and peter didn't pick it up very well, he got threatened and unmasked numerous times, his aunt had to move away, his school got threatened, his boss got shot in the head..... He fluked out most cases and then died. The final battle he woke up the flame guy who powered up osborn rather than the ice guy...

you would think people would learn something from peter's death but nope, no training for you miles, have a costume run into battle.

#28 Posted by akbogert (3222 posts) - - Show Bio

I really, REALLY don't understand the Gwen-bashing here, and on a side note I find the way that food service people are being demeaned here insulting. Gwen is no less of a person and no less qualified to judge someone's decisions because she works a minimum wage job.

The entire Spider-Man mantra deals with responsibility proportional to power. Gwen can't do what Miles can. No one can. And for him to refuse to put his abilities to use is absolutely something he can be called out on.

#29 Posted by ogg927 (135 posts) - - Show Bio

I love the modern update to Cloak and Dagger.

#30 Edited by Scarlet_Rogue (152 posts) - - Show Bio
#31 Edited by ChillinVillain (158 posts) - - Show Bio

@w0nd said:

@drewyetti said:

@tximinoman: However, peter didn't have training and he manage to pick up the superhero activities very well although miles is not peter just himself.

"You got it all wrong, if someone like Gwen get to slap you because you're not doing what you should be doing... you don't think "who the fuck are you to tell me what I HAVE to be doing?" what you should think is "wow... even this loser who doesn't know me at all knows that I'm being a quitter and a pussy, maybe I should put my shit together once and for all and start being a fucking hero".

yes i got my "opinion" all wrong...

no that's not what I would be thinking...considering this person has done nothing I would once again questions why this person who did nothing is telling me what to do, and gtfo with my dad before he dies too. it's a matter of opinion my friend, simple as that. Spider woman is a whole other story, notice how i didn't complain about her or Ganke? because I would respect what they are saying, I am saying GWEN annoyed me, not the fact she wants him to be spider-man. Once again matter of opinion.

go get your mom killed, then tell me if you feel you should be playing super hero still? or would you go get training and get your shit together first?

miles can't even make webfluid...and peter didn't pick it up very well, he got threatened and unmasked numerous times, his aunt had to move away, his school got threatened, his boss got shot in the head..... He fluked out most cases and then died. The final battle he woke up the flame guy who powered up osborn rather than the ice guy...

you would think people would learn something from peter's death but nope, no training for you miles, have a costume run into battle.

@w0nd said:

@tximinoman:

life is not pretty but like i said if some diner girl who accomplished nothing with herself told me what I HAVE to do would be like wtf who are you to tell me what I HAVE to be doing? the only person im obligated to taking care of is my family. Everyone seems to be forgetting he has had literally 0 training, but they expect him to run out there and save the day. Worked out pretty well for Pete. He was a boy playing hero, nick fury was a guy egging on this boy playing hero

here is a costume, go have fun...

the reason his mother died was because he was spider-man, not because he wasn't being spider-man, flip side to uncle ben dying because peter wasn't being spiderman

I am not saying miles should stop being spider-man I am just saying what Gwen did was annoying the way she handled it was annoying. If someone who actually accomplished something with their life gave me the speech it would be different, not the same girl who held a gun to peter's head, and ran away from hom because she couldn't handle the "Craziness"

The Bold: Thank you for saying that!

I don't get why people can't see that the whole "with power, comes responsibility" is a little different when it comes to Miles's situation. People seem to forget that Miles didn't want to be a superhero in the first place, and very likely wouldn't have if Peter didn't die. However UNLIKE Peter, he helped people simply because he felt that it was the right thing to do; he didn't need to let tragedy happen and then get a speech. Miles already had that responsibility mentality in him (seeing as he felt that he had (not necessarily want) to take Peter's place), but at the same time he didn't want to be a full-time hero (not for awhile at least).

Another reason why it's different for Miles is because his mom is the SECOND member of his family to die BECAUSE he was playing hero, and his dad was close to being a potential third! Miles "taking responsibility" nearly resulted in the death of his whole family! So when someone like Gwen goes and slaps him,and then DEMANDS he be Spider-Man, SHE IS IN THE WRONG!

It has nothing to do with what she's accomplished in her life, either. Miles has every right to say: "WHO THE FCK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?!? WHAT GIVES YOU THE RIGHT?!? YOU TALK ABOUT "WITH GREAT POWER, COME GREAT RESPONSIBILITY", BUT FORGET THAT I DID TAKE THAT RESPONSIBILITY! AT 13 YEARS OLD! WITH NO TRAINING AT ALL! WITH OTHERS TELLING ME THAT I DIDN'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO SO! WITH MY DAD HATING ALL THINGS SUPERHERO! AND WHAT HAPPENED AS A DIRECT RESULT OF ME TAKING THAT RESPONSIBILITY?? MY UNCLE, THAT I LOVED, DIED FIGHTING ME!!! MY MOM, THAT I LOVED, DIED TRYING TO PROTECT ME!!! MY DAD, THAT i LOVE, NEARLY DIED BECAUSE SOME HUGE, FREAKY MONSTER THOUGHT HE WAS ME!!! ALL OF THIS HAPPENED TO ME BECAUSE I BECAME SPIDER-MAN!!! AND NOW THAT I'M FINALLY,TRULY, TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY ACTIONS AND TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT WHAT'S LEFT OF MY FAMILY IS SAFE AND ALIVE, YOU COME AND TRY TO FORCE ME BACK INTO THE VERY THING THAT HAS NEARLY DESTROYED MY FAMILY!!! GET THE FCK BACK!!!"

That's what Miles should've said to Gwen, and everyone else trying to make up his mind for him. I know that Miles will become Spider-Man again, but it should be his choice and his choice ALONE; not because he's guilt-tripped into it by people who haven't been thru what he's going thru.

The Underlined: Yeah, where's Miles training??? They didn't even make sure that he could make his own webbing, let alone fight and strategize in battle! And hell yeah Peter struggled all throughout his time as Spider-Man! Peter let himself get captured AND unmasked by THE SHOCKER!!! REALLY, THE SHOCKER?!?! THAT FOOL, OF ALL PEOPLE??? Really, if anyone is to be blamed for the suffering of the Spider-Men, it's S.H.I.E.L.D.; their carelessness and willingness to let a 15 year old and 13 YEAR OLD (I MEAN COME ON!!!) PLAY HERO WITHOUT TRAINING OF ANY SORT!!!

Anyway, this was a great issue and interested in what the future holds for not just Cloak and Dagger, but also Bombshell. I think that the death of Peter really affected her, seeing as she was raised by a horrible influence and now the one person who actually tried to help her and be her friend is dead; she probably gave up on herself, or something like that. Hopefully she becomes an ally to Miles.

#32 Posted by w0nd (3388 posts) - - Show Bio

@chillinvillain: summed up how i felt but you worded it wayyy better lol. On a side note even Aunt May told Gwen off for that in her own way.

#33 Edited by ChillinVillain (158 posts) - - Show Bio

@w0nd said:

@chillinvillain: summed up how i felt but you worded it wayyy better lol. On a side note even Aunt May told Gwen off for that in her own way.

Haha, I try :]

Also, props to Aunt May for bring the reasonable one. I find it ridiculous how Miles's other friends/allies can't be that understanding.

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