Why I love Timothy Drake Wayne

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Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio

In case you aren't aware, there was an aggressive blog post made by a user on why he hates Tim Drake recently. Now, we are all entitled to our own opinions, but that user stated a number of points, claimed they were his opinion, but also claimed that they were true - thereby making them facts; which they were not. I'd like to take this opportunity to stand up for one of my favourite characters in the DC universe and not allow him to be slagged off so unfairly. 
 
This is my opinion. I will not force it upon you if you disagree with it, but if you make outlandish remarks that are completely contrary to canon truth, I will be vocal in my discussion. Secondly, the only facts here are the points that I back up with evidence in the form of scans or references. I'll try my hardest not to theorise or speculate, but use concrete evidence to support my statement. Thirdly, I won't slag off another character or swear at them - I'll do my best to make a persuasive, and above all else, mature post. 
 
Here's a little something to set this blog post up.
  


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
First things first, the most appealing thing for me is the fact that, above all else, Tim respects Bruce. He respects Bruce as a person, Batman as an ideal and the legend that his adoptive father will leave behind. While each Robin that preceded him, and the one that followed, all had their issues with Bruce, Timothy never clashed with Bruce's ideals. Dick was disobedient, Jason was too clouded and Damien is too arrogant. Tim understood what the Bat symbol meant, what Bruce's dedication to that life meant and ultimately, he bonded the most with Bruce. Now, you might argue with me there, but there is a reason Bruce handed the company to Tim in his will - Bruce saw Tim as a possible Batman of teenage years. Tim models almost every aspect of Bruce, which is why Bruce bonded with him the most. That is why I love reading about him, because it portrays what a teenage Batman may have been like and younger readers (I am 21) can further connect with him.
 


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Now, what separates him from the rest of the Bat-Sons is his upbringing. Whilst Bruce saved Dick, Jason and Damian, Tim saved Bruce. Cassie (Wonder Girl) said it herself. "Remember when you told me how you became Robin? You said that Batman needed a Robin. What happens when a Robin needs a Robin?"  (Red Robin #3) This was in reference to Bruce's dark change after Jason Todd was beaten to death by the Joker. Bruce almost lost his sanity after that, even Talia worried for him after that incident (Red Hood: The Lost Days #1) and knew that it would eventually destroy him. Tim had already known about Bruce and Dick's identity a long while before that, having deduced it himself. He came to Bruce and offered his hand to help. Tim had a family, he had a life, and he acted out of his heart to help the Dark Knight. None of the other Bat-Sons did the same, they were all rescued by Bruce. Because Tim was free of emotional baggage, he was able to help Bruce reassemble his shattered sanity and self-respect after the failure of Jason and became the Dark Knight once more. I love that about Tim. He shows a maturity beyond his age, and a good heart that did not need to be awakened by tragedy. He had a normal life and a loving family, but he reached out to Bruce.
 
What about when Bruce 'died' and everyone but Drake believed him to be dead? Everyone, from his old Titan teammates to Dick himself tried to talk some 'sense' into him, but he would not listen. Do you want to know why? Because he was closest to Bruce. Even Alfred, Fox and Oracle all believed Bruce was dead, but not Tim. Tim was the closest to Bruce and that is why he knew. 
 
Now, there has been a bit of slagging off of Tim's physical ability. Allow me to rectify some points. Tim never lost to Damian. He wasn't trying in any of their fights except their most recent one. That isn't my opinion, that is fact. "I've always held back for Bruce and for Dick." (Red Robin #14) What happens when Tim does try? In that very issue, Damian tried to ambush Tim by cutting his rope in mid-air and then attacking him on the ground. The moment Tim started trying, he broke Damian's face in two places with two blows, before the fight was broken up by Dick (again Red Robin #14). His exact words were: "You lost the second I started trying." So there's a fact for you. 
 
Secondly, Tim doesn't have the physical blessings that Dick and Jason has, but he more than makes up for it with his instinctual intellect. He took on the entire Council of Spiders (assassins who were at war with the League), including the Wanderer who can instantly kill with skin-contact and managed to get out in one piece. 
 


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
That's coming from Ra's al Ghul, a person who consistently has proven he can stalemate Bruce. Tim has also fought Dick to the point where he has had the advantage (Red Robin #4). He fought Dick when he refused to return to Gotham to receive psychological help for believing Bruce was still alive. He managed to up Dick and hold his staff to his throat, thereby forcing Dick to surrender. He has also managed to hold his own, albeit in a very losing battle, against Ra's al Ghul (Red Robin #12). But the most important part about Tim is that he acknowledges that he doesn't have a superior physique like Dick and Jason do - he fights with his intelligence. He admitted this very trait when he defeated Lady Shiva - that's right. He defeated the most deadly martial artist in the DC Universe.
  


 
Of course, that leads us to the final and most important point about Tim Wayne - his intelligence. Instead of just talking, I'll let my scans do it for me. However, I strongly suggest you read up a little bit on his Red Robin series. He has outsmarted The Council of Spiders, Ra's al Ghul (twice), Vicki Vale and Anarky. Dick has also completely admitted that Tim is far more intelligent than him. Not only that, but if you remember my earlier scan, Batman Inc. was Tim's idea. Bruce acknowledges this. 
 
Crippling the League of Assassins right under their noses


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Dick admitting Tim is smarter than him and a better Robin

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Tim completely outplaying Ra's al Ghul - for the second time
 


 
 
As I bring this to a close, I hope I eradicated any doubt of Tim's place in the Bat-Family. Red Robin is my favourite series in all of DC (that's above the Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul, which is my all-time favourite Batman story). Timothy Drake is such a joy to follow and I love reading his new adventures. As I depart, I'll leave you one final scan to show why I love Timothy Drake Wayne.
 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
This has been a blog by Lucas aka RainEffect. Thank you for taking the time to read this. If you have any feedback, or even want to request a topic for me to write a blog on, go for it.  
 

#1 Posted by The_Tree (7281 posts) - - Show Bio

All of the points you've raised are the exact reasons why Tim's my favorite member of the bat family!

Nice, well written blog!

#2 Posted by Dernman (14957 posts) - - Show Bio
@RainEffect: You forgot the most important reason of all.  

He is the first one to change the costume into something you're not embarrassed just to look at. :p
#3 Posted by TheGoldenOne (38849 posts) - - Show Bio
Tim is awesome :)
 
@Dernman said:
@RainEffect: You forgot the most important reason of all.  He is the first one to change the costume into something you're not embarrassed just to look at. :p

lol, That's true also.
#4 Posted by Samimista (20668 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm so glad someone made such a wonderful positive blog on Timmy. I wish instead of him being in the new Teen Titans book that he would have his own series where he could be like a male version of Oracle since he's computer savvy.

#5 Edited by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect said:

In case you aren't aware, there was an aggressive blog post made by a user on why he hates Tim Drake recently. Now, we are all entitled to our own opinions, but that user stated a number of points, claimed they were his opinion, but also claimed that they were true - thereby making them facts; which they were not. I'd like to take this opportunity to stand up for one of my favourite characters in the DC universe and not allow him to be slagged off so unfairly.

This is my opinion. I will not force it upon you if you disagree with it, but if you make outlandish remarks that are completely contrary to canon truth, I will be vocal in my discussion. Secondly, the only facts here are the points that I back up with evidence in the form of scans or references. I'll try my hardest not to theorise or speculate, but use concrete evidence to support my statement. Thirdly, I won't slag off another character or swear at them - I'll do my best to make a persuasive, and above all else, mature post.

This intro is silly and unnecessary. There is NO REASON to harp on someone for stating their opinion regardless of how they phrase it. They should not need to constantly chirp "IMO" in order for it to be understood. This intro just makes you seem passive-aggressive and holier-than-thou about something that should not be a big deal.

Now with that said, I will read the rest of your blog. Because I love Tim as well.

First things first, the most appealing thing for me is the fact that, above all else, Tim respects Bruce. He respects Bruce as a person, Batman as an ideal and the legend that his adoptive father will leave behind. While each Robin that preceded him, and the one that followed, all had their issues with Bruce, Timothy never clashed with Bruce's ideals. Dick was disobedient, Jason was too clouded and Damien is too arrogant.

I'm a little confused on this point. It seems like you're saying that you like Tim the best because he never questions Bruce or is disobedient, but that doesn't make any sense. Tim's first act as Robin was disobeying and challenging Bruce. Bruce says "no more Robins," and Tim says "Batman NEEDS a Robin." That's not very passive. I also don't like how you're pegging Dick as disobedient when it was pretty clear from the context of his development that Bruce drove him away and into becoming Nightwing. Dick didn't get all "you're cramping my style old man," and peace-out on his own.

I'd argue this point would be stronger if it were instead phrased as "Tim is the most optimistic" or "Tim and Bruce get along best in their civilian identities." These would still be debatable as Dick is fairly upbeat and incredibly close with Bruce, but I don't think you should peg Tim as "the obedient one."

Now, what separates him from the rest of the Bat-Sons is his upbringing.

Whoa wait, you nailed it with this line but then you started talking about other stuff and never elaborated on this vital point! Your whole blog could've been focused on just this!

Tim comes the closest to having a normal relationship with his parents of any of the Bat-family (with Babs being the only possible exception). Yes, he's lost them and become Bruce Wayne now, but his growth as Tim Drake was vital to who he is. And when he did lose his father, he didn't box it up like the others did or pour it into the fight, he shared it with his friends--the Titans--and grieved normally. It's because of his "normal" life that Tim is the most emotionally grounded of the Bat-kicks.

Whilst Bruce saved Dick, Jason and Damian, Tim saved Bruce. Cassie (Wonder Girl) said it herself.
...
Because Tim was free of emotional baggage, he was able to help Bruce reassemble his shattered sanity and self-respect after the failure of Jason and became the Dark Knight once more.

Yes, this is what makes their relationship unique. Batman knew he could depend on Tim from the very start and Tim's introduction led to a major shift in Batman's personality. This shift toward a less solitary person also opened up the Bat-family that we know today (or knew post-revamp). Without Tim, would Batman have been open to Huntress? Cass? Steph? Probably not. Even the close relationship with Oracle would be in question.

What about when Bruce 'died' and everyone but Drake believed him to be dead? Everyone, from his old Titan teammates to Dick himself tried to talk some 'sense' into him, but he would not listen. Do you want to know why? Because he was closest to Bruce. Even Alfred, Fox and Oracle all believed Bruce was dead, but not Tim. Tim was the closest to Bruce and that is why he knew.

Eh. I think that plot was never explained very well. Tim very well could've been delusional, he just happened to be right. There was never any reason given for Tim to "know" that Bruce was alive other than wishful thinking. What's significant is not that Bruce and Tim were the closest, but rather Tim had faith in something that couldn't be proven as well as the mental fortitude and detective chops to go out and find the truth one way or another. What I liked about that plot was that even though Tim was desperate to prove that Bruce was still alive, he still evaluated all evidence with a critical eye. He didn't let his need compromise his analytic abilities. This is one of the plots that peg Tim as the best detective of the bat family.

Now, there has been a bit of slagging off of Tim's physical ability. Allow me to rectify some points. ...

I think you're protesting too much with these examples, especially with the anti-Damian examples. So Tim got some wins over him and talked some trash, good for him but that doesn't necessarily mean they're anything more than evenly matched. The fact is that Tim is not the "martial prowess" member of the Bat family (Cassandra is) but you're right that he's no slouch either.

Other than Babs and Steph, every member of the bat family has had training with various elite assassin groups and trainers. Dick and Tim both even followed Bruce's original training regiment during 52/One Year Later. On top of that, Tim received personal training from Shiva. I would never argue he's the strongest fighter in the Bat family, but one can confidently say he's on the same level as the rest of them and leave it at that. They're all competing at Bruce's level, even if he might win the majority of their sparring sessions against them (although Cass would probably be more like 50/50).

But the most important part about Tim is that he acknowledges that he doesn't have a superior physique like Dick and Jason do - he fights with his intelligence.
...
He has outsmarted The Council of Spiders, Ra's al Ghul (twice), Vicki Vale and Anarky. Dick has also completely admitted that Tim is far more intelligent than him.

And this is why I like Tim the best and, if anything, don't want him to be seen as the "tough" Robin. Granted, Babs might be the "genius" of the Bat family (and the gadgeteer as Oracle), and ALL the bat-kicks have had crazy-preparedness drilled into them, but Tim is the true magnificent bastard. He's not just another Batman, he's something special, which is why he's constantly being hit up with recruitment offers from competing organizations. He certainly has Ra's' respect, as he's the one sidekick who gets called the "Detective" like Bruce does.

Now if only Tim would ditch the name Red Robin and go back to the good costume (below) instead of the Dr. Mid-Nite ripoff or the vegas showgirl costume.

#6 Edited by SmoothJammin (2333 posts) - - Show Bio

That one scan from 'Gates' is of Dick acknowledging Tim as a more useful "Robin" than he'd ever been. Not that he was vastly smarter/better, but that he proved very reliable as Robin, potentially a better Batman as well.. and this was amidst all of the pandemonium Architect unleashed on the city. In his defense, Dick was on edge because of the heavy responsibility Bruce left him and the subsequent disaster of the Gates of Gotham/Wayne Tower/Ice Lounge. His confidence level was spiraling but he needed to prove to Bruce he had things under control and kept his cool in front of his team, so if anything it was more out of nerves he said that in his monologue. When he finally recouped and solved the case/took down the Architect, Bruce later showed up on the Bunker monitor and admitted to Dick that he'd one day be a greater Batman than himself with time .....if you remember that part as well.

As Nightwing he had the luxury of fighting crime on his own terms, applying his own unique methods to differentiate himself from his mentor. He wasn't Batman or Robin so how could he hope to distinguish himself as such? He was his own brand of hero. Tim treated the mantle as his job, Dick treated being Robin as a thrill which should tell you all you need to know about who was more serious. I'm of the belief that Bruce was harder on Dick since they were his earlier days of crimefighting and both were still learning. Dick's optimism was always recognized as the counterbalance to Bruce's darkness so his task was more about functioning as a wingman and not so much an intern. Which I guess makes sense b/c it's always Dick and his phenomenal skill of timing, who's there to catch Bruce when he finds himself in a bind. Tim absorbed everything Bruce taught him and applied that work on the field by himself as Robin. Dick hung around his mentor where ever he went, JLA missions, World's Finest, bedtime even.. >_>

Tim running Wayne enterprises made perfect sense, actually. With Batman and Robin on constant surveillance of Gotham, Dick running the Justice League and cling to many of DC's heroes it was convenient of Bruce to plan ahead and decide that the family business would eventually become a burden. Dick went to Hudson University for a time, and knows full well how to handle professional matters having shadowed Bruce for so long but Tim was a natural mathematician,committed thinking man and most importantly--less social than Dick, therefore, the focus was on $$$ over relationships. Duh. Hasn't Bruce manipulated Tim to choose his ways over friendship before?(someone remind me when, I think after conner died)

As far as the bonding thing goes, Dick is Bruce's favorite..infinite crisis/geoff johns say so.

Ras has called Dick by the "Detective" surname before at the end of his Nightwing series when Dick bested Ras in swordfighting. He respects him as the next in line and offers him Batman's sword, as a nod to him picking up where Bruce left off.

I can admit that Tim is the Bat family prodigy, but in no way does that designate him as the most competent/multifaceted member. Imo Dick takes that category, he possesses all the tools to combat any legitimate threat and Grant Morrisons B&R proved that. So did Snyder's Tec and Gates.

#7 Posted by SmoothJammin (2333 posts) - - Show Bio

Also Bruce was an asshole to Dick in those days, much colder version than todays which is probably why Dick, as good a kid as he was, felt compelled to argue and rebel. The hugging, cutesy Batman of today is soft compared to dark age bats, the one who stepped into "a serious house on serious earth" Arkham..

#8 Posted by FantasticMrInvisibleTorchThing (55 posts) - - Show Bio

I believe myself to be a bigger fan of Dick and Damian. I wish I had more on an expertise on these character to lay down better reasoning, but as of right now all I can say is that I've always admired how Dick set the standard for the Robin mantle, starting the whole "Robin balances Batman" shtick. Not to mention he whoops crime and gets the ladies... like a BOSS.

And with Damian, I just love how he's a total dick (PUN. HAHAHAHAHA.) I read several issues of Batman and Robin pre-reboot (I'm still reading the rebooted series, though) and I loved how the dynamic turned on itself. Batman was the optimistic, light one, and Robin was the "all work no play" jerk.

That being said, I hope Batman goes back to being a total dick again. I'm tired of him being a family man.

#9 Posted by Supreme Marvel (11264 posts) - - Show Bio

@ You know who. THIS IS HOW YOU DO A THREAD

#10 Posted by Supreme Marvel (11264 posts) - - Show Bio

I loved Gates of Gotham. They treated Tim with so much respect. Showed how he ha the better relationship with Cass'. Buying the TPB when it's released.

#11 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

I've started re-reading through all of Tim's stories, cuz they are that good. I just noticed that for all the talk of Tim not being a good fighter or having physical ability... the first that Dick says about Tim as Tim flips Dick is that Tim is good... and Alfred claims that Tim is almost as acrobatic as Dick was at that age. That's pretty high praise given that Dick was the best child acrobat, and is perhaps now the best acrobat in the world. That would mean that if Dick at age 13 is the 100 mark then Tim at age 13 would be the 90-99 mark.

This actually goes against what I was saying about Tim in the other thread because it implies that Tim has an unique body as well. Perhaps his martial arts background was a bit more extensive than we're lead to believe later on...Likewise I can see how Tim would have been drawn to learn some acrobatics as well. Further, the combination of the two backgrounds would create a more complimentary build than Dick's focus on Acrobatics and Damians focus on fighting... because Dick would have had to use his Acrobatics to supplement his lack fighting ability while Damian would have had to use his fighting to supplement his lack of acrobatics where as Tim would have had that balance all along.

#12 Posted by SmoothJammin (2333 posts) - - Show Bio

@Durakken: I think you're reading a little too much into things...LOL..

#13 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (12931 posts) - - Show Bio

0.0 
 
you............are you Jesus? 
 
lol but seriously this was freaking awesome, a tribute definitely worthy of Tim. 

#14 Posted by SmoothJammin (2333 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect: I guess Jason was a much better Robin than Dick too?

....Also, is it just me or is Dick stocky as fk, for a 17-18 year old?

Tim wasn't even THAT big as Robin much less RR. I remember him slipping in the silver age batman costume in BFTC, looked like he was going trick or treating lol

#15 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin said:

@Durakken: I think you're reading a little too much into things...LOL..

One must take everything into account when they are trying to figure out things...

@SmoothJammin said:

@RainEffect: I guess Jason was a much better Robin than Dick too?

....Also, is it just me or is Dick stocky as fk, for a 17-18 year old?

Tim wasn't even THAT big as Robin much less RR. I remember him slipping in the silver age batman costume in BFTC, looked like he was going trick or treating lol

I'd actually chalk that bit up to Dick trying to be encouraging, or in both cases Dick just having a low opinion of himself, or Dick realizing that he added nothing to the team.

That is the case btw. Dick ostensibly added nothing to the team in terms of skills. His job on the team was the role that we all associate with Robin when we know nothing else of him and that is as an annoying irritating moving target/distraction.

Jason is a natural mechanic/engineer which none of the the other Robins are and that would have been a huge benefit to Batman. Tim, Dick, and Damian rely on other sources for their gadgetry where as Jason would have been able to create a lot of useful gadgets for the group... in fact that might even be the solution to his Jan syndrome... pointing out his capabilities and letting him be the star at what he's good at. I'd love to see a more Iron Man-esque Jason. We saw how useful this quality is in Harold during the 90s.

#16 Edited by Loki9876 (3003 posts) - - Show Bio

i like him too he's my favorite robin

#17 Posted by Miss Marvel (117 posts) - - Show Bio

*Claps* Well said and well done. *Claps* I'm glad someone took the time, after that blog, to go through and explain Tim's side of things. You hit points that were so spot on, its incredible!

#18 Posted by Superguy0009e (2265 posts) - - Show Bio

Tim is just a better thinker, thus a better Batman.

Dick was just a cricus boy, Jason a punk, but Tim, he was the real deal

#19 Posted by BlackArmor (6137 posts) - - Show Bio

Tim is number 1 robin and this thread gives him the respect and praise he deserves. in almost every issue i've ever read with tim there has been a moment when i wanted to applaud and this thread desreves the same honor good job
#20 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio
@fodigg:  Hah! It's like getting my essay marked at University. Thanks for your time, mate.
 

This intro is silly and unnecessary. There is NO REASON to harp on someone for stating their opinion regardless of how they phrase it. They should not need to constantly chirp "IMO" in order for it to be understood. This intro just makes you seem passive-aggressive and holier-than-thou about something that should not be a big deal.

My intention was not to appear holier-than-thou, though I apologise if it may have been interpreted in such a manner. I don't feel it was silly or unnecessary. Do you remember his intro? It was negative, arrogant and full of swearing. My introduction is literally the flip-side of that coin, positive, protective of the character and well-constructed.  In fact, this entire blog could be considered the flip side to his coin. Think of Two-Face's coin - one side charred, the other side clean. I'm passionate in my love of Tim's character, he's passionate (or rather obsessive) in his hatred of the character.
 

I'm a little confused on this point. It seems like you're saying that you like Tim the best because he never questions Bruce or is disobedient, but that doesn't make any sense. Tim's first act as Robin was disobeying and challenging Bruce. Bruce says "no more Robins," and Tim says "Batman NEEDS a Robin." That's not very passive. I also don't like how you're pegging Dick as disobedient when it was pretty clear from the context of his development that Bruce drove him away and into becoming Nightwing. Dick didn't get all "you're cramping my style old man," and peace-out on his own.

I'd argue this point would be stronger if it were instead phrased as "Tim is the most optimistic" or "Tim and Bruce get along best in their civilian identities." These would still be debatable as Dick is fairly upbeat and incredibly close with Bruce, but I don't think you should peg Tim as "the obedient one.
 I didn't say, in that paragraph, that Tim was the best Robin. I said that what appeals to me the most about him is how much he differs from the previous and the current. He respected Bruce and the Bat-symbol more than any Robin before him, that is why I admire him - he knows his place and he understands the magnificence of such a symbol. 
 
As for Dick being disobedient, he said it himself. "Bruce, I made a career out of not following orders as Robin." (Batman: The Return). I wouldn't call Tim's desire to be Robin as disobedient, as, if we get really technical, he wasn't Robin at that point. Furthermore, he did it out of admiration and consideration for Bruce. And give Tim a little more credit! He got along with Batman so well because they are so similar. Both are incredibly analytical and calculating and understand the need for discretion over valour. 
 

Whoa wait, you nailed it with this line but then you started talking about other stuff and never elaborated on this vital point! Your whole blog could've been focused on just this!

Tim comes the closest to having a normal relationship with his parents of any of the Bat-family (with Babs being the only possible exception). Yes, he's lost them and become Bruce Wayne now, but his growth as Tim Drake was vital to who he is. And when he did lose his father, he didn't box it up like the others did or pour it into the fight, he shared it with his friends--the Titans--and grieved normally. It's because of his "normal" life that Tim is the most emotionally grounded of the Bat-kicks.

 Again, another reason why Tim is so easy to connect to - he has a normal life. Hah! If I wrote the entire blog on that, it wouldn't be much of a statement, it would be more of a hypothesis. Although I don't understand what you mean by me deviating off that topic? I provided the cases of each Bat-kick's origin into becoming Robin and then compared them to Tim. Admittedly, I didn't go into it with as much detail as you did, but I didn't want to turn this blog into too much of an essay.
 

Eh. I think that plot was never explained very well. Tim very well could've been delusional, he just happened to be right. There was never any reason given for Tim to "know" that Bruce was alive other than wishful thinking. What's significant is not that Bruce and Tim were the closest, but rather Tim had faith in something that couldn't be proven as well as the mental fortitude and detective chops to go out and find the truth one way or another. What I liked about that plot was that even though Tim was desperate to prove that Bruce was still alive, he still evaluated all evidence with a critical eye. He didn't let his need compromise his analytic abilities. This is one of the plots that peg Tim as the best detective of the bat family.

If you remember, it was a feeling within his heart. Then he pursued it and eventually found evidence in Red Robin #4. I absolutely 100% agree with you on how Tim still remained grounded within his passionate search. Also, don't forget, Ra's also believed Bruce to be alive and that is why he aided him. 
 

I think you're protesting too much with these examples, especially with the anti-Damian examples. So Tim got some wins over him and talked some trash, good for him but that doesn't necessarily mean they're anything more than evenly matched. The fact is that Tim is not the "martial prowess" member of the Bat family (Cassandra is) but you're right that he's no slouch either.

Other than Babs and Steph, every member of the bat family has had training with various elite assassin groups and trainers. Dick and Tim both even followed Bruce's original training regiment during 52/One Year Later. On top of that, Tim received personal training from Shiva. I would never argue he's the strongest fighter in the Bat family, but one can confidently say he's on the same level as the rest of them and leave it at that. They're all competing at Bruce's level, even if he might win the majority of their sparring sessions against them (although Cass would probably be more like 50/50).


It was necessary. He had been previously slagged off as though his physical fighting skills were below someone like Stephanie Brown - which I would not stand for. Making the claim that Damian is better than Tim is just outrageous and I had to provide evidence that quite simply stomped on that theory. 
 

And this is why I like Tim the best and, if anything, don't want him to be seen as the "tough" Robin. Granted, Babs might be the "genius" of the Bat family (and the gadgeteer as Oracle), and ALL the bat-kicks have had crazy-preparedness drilled into them, but Tim is the true magnificent bastard. He's not just another Batman, he's something special, which is why he's constantly being hit up with recruitment offers from competing organizations. He certainly has Ra's' respect, as he's the one sidekick who gets called the "Detective" like Bruce does.

Now if only Tim would ditch the name Red Robin and go back to the good costume (below) instead of the Dr. Mid-Nite ripoff or the vegas showgirl costume.

Okay, I laughed at that magnificent bastard link - thanks for that. I even spent like 15 minutes checking other magnificent bastard's in comics/film/video games. Got to love Doctor Doom's description, hah! Back onto subject, that is why I love that scan where he admits to Shiva that he's not the best hand-to-hand fighter. He admits that he's not physically perfect, but he fights with his intellect and his fists. Plus, you have to give it to him, managing to last more than five seconds against Ra's al Ghul, someone way out of his league, is pretty respectable. 
 
LOL. I hate his new outfit, but I also think the one you provided is too young for him. It makes him look like a child. He should keep the old Red Robin outfit. The cowl with the sharp 'hawk nose' was pretty awesome.
 
Thanks again for taking the time to give me feedback.

#21 Edited by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect said:

@fodigg: Hah! It's like getting my essay marked at University. Thanks for your time, mate.

I guess old habits die hard. :) I never taught but I spent a few years working in a university writing center.

My intention was not to appear holier-than-thou, though I apologise if it may have been interpreted in such a manner. I don't feel it was silly or unnecessary. Do you remember his intro? It was negative, arrogant and full of swearing. My introduction is literally the flip-side of that coin, positive, protective of the character and well-constructed. In fact, this entire blog could be considered the flip side to his coin. Think of Two-Face's coin - one side charred, the other side clean. I'm passionate in my love of Tim's character, he's passionate (or rather obsessive) in his hatred of the character.

I actually had not read his intro until after I replied to this. It was laughably ridiculous. The "just your opinion" critique is a specific pet peeve of mine so I tend to jump on that quickly, but after reading his post it was obvious he was the one who brought it up in the first place. He basically started out his blog with "and this is my OPINION HATERS SO SHUT UP," which I think more than explains it's presence here.

The funniest part about his post was that he could have enunciated some decent points from the perspective of a Jason fan:

  • "I prefer the tough fighting style to Tim's more measured approach"
  • "I don't like that he's taken up what was originally (in canon DCU) Jason's uniform"
  • "He's been bested by Damian—aka Diet Jason—in combat, which makes me feel like Jason could best him in combat"
  • "Some of his fans are rabid" (although this would have been highly hypocritical if he were to say it, and really, every character has some rabid fans)

Unfortunately his thesis was more along the line of "Hey, let me call this popular character names and nobody can tell me it's not true cause it's my OPINION." A troll in the truest sense.

I didn't say, in that paragraph, that Tim was the best Robin. I said that what appeals to me the most about him is how much he differs from the previous and the current. He respected Bruce and the Bat-symbol more than any Robin before him, that is why I admire him - he knows his place and he understands the magnificence of such a symbol.

Well, then why turn to "Red Robin?" I suppose one could argue it was because he was going down a "dark path" or some such and didn't want to taint the Bat symbol, but he never had the bat symbol to begin with and "Red Robin" is so close to "Robin" it's quite obviously just a case of "We are DC Comics and have no faith in this character to sell without 'Robin' in the title." I don't disagree that he respects everything Bruce stands for—he definitely does—but I actually wouldn't mind seeing Tim step out of the Bat family and become his own man (or join another "faction," such as Checkmate). If any of the Robins are capable of that I think he is. Jason has obviously failed, what with going back to the bat logo on his chest.

As for Dick being disobedient, he said it himself. "Bruce, I made a career out of not following orders as Robin." (Batman: The Return). I wouldn't call Tim's desire to be Robin as disobedient, as, if we get really technical, he wasn't Robin at that point. Furthermore, he did it out of admiration and consideration for Bruce. And give Tim a little more credit! He got along with Batman so wellbecause they are so similar. Both are incredibly analytical and calculating and understand the need for discretion over valour.

Well in that sense I agree. Tim is basically a calmer Bruce Wayne. They're both quiet and thoughtful but Tim doesn't brood. However, I still think you're underselling how much Bruce drove Dick away from him as well as Tim's sense of, if not "disobedience," his independent streak. He's arguably had the most successful solo-title sales of any of the Robins. (What's the comparison of Nightwing issues to Robin/Red Robin issues?)

Again, another reason why Tim is so easy to connect to - he has a normal life. Hah! If I wrote the entire blog on that, it wouldn't be much of a statement, it would be more of a hypothesis. Although I don't understand what you mean by me deviating off that topic? I provided the cases of each Bat-kick's origin into becoming Robin and then compared them to Tim. Admittedly, I didn't go into it with as much detail as you did, but I didn't want to turn this blog into too much of an essay.

Oh I just felt like you stated it—"he had a normal upbringing"—and then dove into describing his relationship with Bruce again. That's certainly related to it but I when I read that line I was hoping for a little more exploration of how Tim's relationship with his parents shaped him before jumping into how Tim's "groundedness" shaped Bruce. A bit about Jack Drake perhaps.

If you remember, it was a feeling within his heart. Then he pursued it and eventually found evidence in Red Robin #4. I absolutely 100% agree with you on how Tim still remained grounded within his passionate search. Also, don't forget, Ra's also believed Bruce to be alive and that is why he aided him.

Indeed, but I felt like what that story really needed was some sort of instigating clue which they never really gave other than "no body," which is a little too genre savvy for my tastes. I don't mind it when Deadpool breaks the fourth wall, but I don't like one of the most analytic characters in comics deciding something must be true because, hey, it's a comic book.

It was necessary. He had been previously slagged off as though his physical fighting skills were below someone like Stephanie Brown - which I would not stand for. Making the claim that Damian is better than Tim is just outrageous and I had to provide evidence that quite simply stomped on that theory.

I honestly think there was a little writer infighting over that, where after first introducing him they wanted to establish Damian as a credible threat but then once he was no longer a potential villain he had to get downgraded to the baby of the family. Still, I do like Tim as the "thinker" more than the fighter, but the guy was still trained by Shiva.

Okay, I laughed at that magnificent bastard link - thanks for that. I even spent like 15 minutes checking other magnificent bastard's in comics/film/video games. Got to love Doctor Doom's description, hah!

TVTropes is awesome, but so addictive it can ruin your life!

Back onto subject, that is why I love that scan where he admits to Shiva that he's not the best hand-to-hand fighter. He admits that he's not physically perfect, but he fights with his intellect and his fists. Plus, you have to give it to him, managing to last more than five seconds against Ra's al Ghul, someone way out of his league, is pretty respectable.

Oh heck yeah. And I think that's the one important factor that a lot of these "who could beat up who" discussions miss, the fact that each fight is different and at a certain level, anyone can beat anyone. I mean, Batman is based on that concept (at least, in books like the Justice League where he fights demigods with batarangs). So saying "Damian could beat up Tim, or Tim could beat up Shiva, or Stephanie could beat up Cassandra," it's like, well, if the story is good then yes. Because even if Superman could beat up Batman 999 times out of 1000, the author is going to want to write that 1 story where he doesn't. And that's okay. What's important is not "who is the better fighter?" but rather "are they roughly in the same weight class?"

LOL. I hate his new outfit, but I also think the one you provided is too young for him. It makes him look like a child. He should keep the old Red Robin outfit. The cowl with the sharp 'hawk nose' was pretty awesome.

I wouldn't mind if they updated it but kept it similar. And the full cowl is hard for many artists to pull off so it often looks funny. There's actually a solid Red Robin design with a helmet over on Project Rooftop for comparison:

It's a lot more distinctive and doesn't seem like an ear-less inky blob on the page. Alternatively, the pseudo-civilian outfit he wears in Teen Titans #1 actually looks really good even with the showgirl wings. I wouldn't mind that:

As for the Unternet suit, I don't mind it at all and I think it's actually a pretty good updated take on the costume I posted. It even has the colored fingers like the blue Nightwing suit. However, I'd prefer just the domino mask instead of the bird mask:

None of the above have what I really hate about the two Red Robin suits, the pointless yellow belts. Ugh. I think 90s Cable every time.

Thanks again for taking the time to give me feedback.

No problem. Thank you for writing the blog and speaking some truth about how awesome Tim is! Go vote him up in the sidekicks battle!

#22 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect: @fodigg:

A few things I have to talk about.

Read Batman and Robin #1(though I don't like DCnU B&R) compare that to Batman #465. That is Damian's and Tim's first night with Bruce... They are radically different interactions.

With Tim, Bruce asks what Tim thinks they should do.

With Damian, Bruce orders Damian to not do something.

This shows that Bruce was trusting of Tim, even though he was inexperienced, while Damian was an experienced fighter and had worked with Dick for about a year, yet Bruce didn't trust him.

As far as Red Robin, the costume and why he chose it. It's stated at the beginning of Red Robin why he chose that persona. It was already stained, he has great respect for all the Personas out there, and he didn't know what he was going to be doing so if he had to do something that stained the red Robin name further it wouldn't be bad in his mind. He had and has no intention of ever redeeming that name.

Likewise, the reason he didn't alter the costume, beyond minor differences, is because that persona isn't his. He's not Red Robin. Not in his mind and i think rightfully so. Tim was forced out the door by Dick because Dick views "Robin" as Batman's Sidekick however, Tim made Robin his own as a solo hero that looked to Bruce as a mentor and someone he respected. Dick in fact pulled a Superboy-Prime on Tim in that he argued that Tim wasn't "right" for the Robin role. Tim in my opinion has been lost for the last year or so as to who he is...

And this is the problem that I have with DCnU's Red Robin... they skipped Tim's coming to accept Red Robin as HIS persona and just had it so he did and then he altered the costume to the way he liked it... And the costume the way it is now is silly... The wings don't work as a cape to cover the red so he's easy to see. The two-tone shirt is ugly as are all the straps and military-esque pieces... As far as Cowl vs Mask. Tim prefers the Domino Mask and uses it any time he's in charge of the costume. He doesn't use it in his Red Robin costume because he views it as making it his own...

#23 Posted by Telcalipoca (957 posts) - - Show Bio

tim putting down the league isnt impressive or an act of his own ,credit is duo to Ra's. its Ra's stupidity that caused its downfall by expecting tim an apprentice to his foe not to do anything against him, after handing him control and access to everything his organization had.CIS. and the second time he triumph over him was once more due to his idiocy. after years of dealing with the detective seing him handle all his problems by himself he must have assumed tim would have tried to do the same instead of allying himself with others.he knew nothing of his opponent or how he operated or even cared to consider what they might have known about him.once again he foiled himself. i like Tim though but those 2 things arent things he did by himself

#24 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio
@The_Tree: @BlackArmor: @Miss Marvel: @Avenging-X-Bolt: @Supreme Marvel
Thank you, guys. I appreciate all these positive comments.
 
@SmoothJammin
Sorry I didn't address your comment earlier. 
 
Dick is definitely the most-achieved out of all the Bat-kicks, despite the fact that he's older, but because he branched off pretty early as Nightwing and really transcended the label of sidekick and instead became an ally for Bruce to call upon when he needed it (such as during the Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul when he needed Dick to protect Tim and Damian from the League). However, Dick was raised differently to Tim and for a different purpose. Bruce, one could argue, raised Tim to inherit the Batman legacy. Say five years from now, and Bruce had to choose a Batman, he would choose Tim. Hear me out, but as I've already stated, Tim best embodies Bruce's qualities - from the emotional detachment, the incredible detective skills and that ability to remain absolutely focused despite everything around him. Bruce acknowledges that Dick wasn't born to wear the Cowl. He had to put it on after BFTC because no one else could and Gotham needed a Batman - but once Bruce returned, he was quick to offer it back (of course, Batman Inc came along and he continued with Damian). Even in the New 52, Dick is more comfortable in his own skin, his own creation, which is Nightwing.
#25 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@Durakken said:

@RainEffect: @fodigg:

A few things I have to talk about.

Read Batman and Robin #1(though I don't like DCnU B&R) compare that to Batman #465. That is Damian's and Tim's first night with Bruce... They are radically different interactions.

With Tim, Bruce asks what Tim thinks they should do.

With Damian, Bruce orders Damian to not do something.

This shows that Bruce was trusting of Tim, even though he was inexperienced, while Damian was an experienced fighter and had worked with Dick for about a year, yet Bruce didn't trust him.

Well, Tim was raised down the street by loving parents and Damian was trained by vicious assassins as a human killing machine. Also, Bruce wasn't around to see Damian's growth with Dick. Yes they're different, but they're totally different characters. Damian has reasons to not trust him built-in. Also, he could just as much have been testing Tim to get his measure as letting him take the lead.

As far as Red Robin, the costume and why he chose it. It's stated at the beginning of Red Robin why he chose that persona. It was already stained, he has great respect for all the Personas out there, and he didn't know what he was going to be doing so if he had to do something that stained the red Robin name further it wouldn't be bad in his mind. He had and has no intention of ever redeeming that name.
Likewise, the reason he didn't alter the costume, beyond minor differences, is because that persona isn't his. He's not Red Robin. Not in his mind and i think rightfully so. Tim was forced out the door by Dick because Dick views "Robin" as Batman's Sidekick however, Tim made Robin his own as a solo hero that looked to Bruce as a mentor and someone he respected. Dick in fact pulled a Superboy-Prime on Tim in that he argued that Tim wasn't "right" for the Robin role. Tim in my opinion has been lost for the last year or so as to who he is...
And this is the problem that I have with DCnU's Red Robin... they skipped Tim's coming to accept Red Robin as HIS persona and just had it so he did and then he altered the costume to the way he liked it...

See, and I feel like even if they did that it'd be so obvious that it's not Tim and that this is just a way for DC to keep "robin" in his title that it would read as false. At this point, especially after the revamp, I feel like he's going to be treated as Red Robin for no other reason than momentum with that name. And that's a terrible reason for a character to change like that. Because the in-U reason you explained above for taking up the Red Robin mantle seems to imply that now that his job is done, he'd cast aside the costume and get a new identity. Not just redesign it and go from there.

And the costume the way it is now is silly... The wings don't work as a cape to cover the red so he's easy to see. The two-tone shirt is ugly as are all the straps and military-esque pieces... As far as Cowl vs Mask. Tim prefers the Domino Mask and uses it any time he's in charge of the costume. He doesn't use it in his Red Robin costume because he views it as making it his own...

Well he's obviously "making it his own" now, which doesn't make any sense.

I still say he should go with the Gray Ghost identity (art source):

Tim could rock that look. And I like how the hat pegs him even more as a "detective" style character. Throw a bat-logo on the chest somewhere, make the whole thing darker, maybe some red lines on the costume and switch the goggles out for a domino mask. Bam: Tim Drake is the Gray Ghost. It would beat the hell out of the way they used the name before the remake, with the lame Batgirl villain (note: "Grey" instead of "Gray") totally unworthy of the name:

If you never saw the old Gray Ghost episodes of Batman the Animated Series, here's some links to that episode (embedding has been disabled):

Basically the character is an actor who played the titular hero in a show-within-a-show that Bruce watched with his father when he was a kid. Voiced by Adam West no less!

#26 Posted by notoriousbcb (371 posts) - - Show Bio

Well thought out. Excellent points across the board. I've always been a Tim fan, this simply serves to validate it.

#27 Edited by entropy_aegis (15198 posts) - - Show Bio
#28 Posted by entropy_aegis (15198 posts) - - Show Bio

I would like to say something,

Red Robin was one of the WORST copouts i've ever seen,sorry but calling the TT against Ra's? what so smart about that?it's lazy,kinda like Batman asking Spectre to end all crime in Gotham,why does'nt Tim call them all the time?.Tim also never had any rational explanation for his Bruce is alive theory,writers kept teasing us for a whole year and we get some halfassed explanation of Tim looking at Mordecai's portrait and coming to the conclusion that it was actually Bruce Wayne.No way is this a feat of detective skills,and i still don't get his takeover of WE.Hush=Bruce Wayne in the minds of the people who were running WE,if Hush's decisions were overturned by those guys then that means Tim can kick Bruce out of his own company even though it was Bruce who made him incharge through his will(WTF).Just thinking about this hurts my head,the will part was utterly IDIOCTIC.

#29 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

I would like to say something,

Red Robin was one of the WORST copouts i've ever seen,sorry but calling the TT against Ra's? what so smart about that?it's lazy,kinda like Batman asking Spectre to end all crime in Gotham,why does'nt Tim call them all the time?.Tim also never had any rational explanation for his Bruce is alive theory,writers kept teasing us for a whole year and we get some halfassed explanation of Tim looking at Mordecai's portrait and coming to the conclusion that it was actually Bruce Wayne.No way is this a feat of detective skills,and i still don't get his takeover of WE.Hush=Bruce Wayne in the minds of the people who were running WE,if Hush's decisions were overturned by those guys then that means Tim can kick Bruce out of his own company even though it was Bruce who made him incharge through his will(WTF).Just thinking about this hurts my head,the will part was utterly IDIOCTIC.

Tim knows about time travel. If Tim figured that the portrait was Bruce then it must have happened at a future point then Bruce couldn't be dead... Its really simple.

They never said that Tim took over via the will. The will was never read. They said that Bruce had made it possible that had Tim ever the need he could take over the company from Bruce and Fox had set in motion those procedures. It's a fairly common thing in any company that has stake holders to have a way to oust the person in charge for whatever reasons.

#30 Posted by entropy_aegis (15198 posts) - - Show Bio

@Durakken said:

@entropy_aegis said:

I would like to say something,

Red Robin was one of the WORST copouts i've ever seen,sorry but calling the TT against Ra's? what so smart about that?it's lazy,kinda like Batman asking Spectre to end all crime in Gotham,why does'nt Tim call them all the time?.Tim also never had any rational explanation for his Bruce is alive theory,writers kept teasing us for a whole year and we get some halfassed explanation of Tim looking at Mordecai's portrait and coming to the conclusion that it was actually Bruce Wayne.No way is this a feat of detective skills,and i still don't get his takeover of WE.Hush=Bruce Wayne in the minds of the people who were running WE,if Hush's decisions were overturned by those guys then that means Tim can kick Bruce out of his own company even though it was Bruce who made him incharge through his will(WTF).Just thinking about this hurts my head,the will part was utterly IDIOCTIC.

Tim knows about time travel. If Tim figured that the portrait was Bruce then it must have happened at a future point then Bruce couldn't be dead... Its really simple.

They never said that Tim took over via the will. The will was never read. They said that Bruce had made it possible that had Tim ever the need he could take over the company from Bruce and Fox had set in motion those procedures. It's a fairly common thing in any company that has stake holders to have a way to oust the person in charge for whatever reasons.

HUH? everyone knows about time travel.Tim was just smashing some stuff,sees the portrait and say's HOLY CRAP it's Bruce,sorry does'nt make sense and the portraits were always there.Morrison himself stated that there would be no going in to the past and changing the future type story.Everything that happened was pre-destined to happen or had already happened.Bruce never altered the timeline in anyway.So no.

Tim has the power to overrule Bruce?now this is where it goes from trying to make Tim look awesome to full blown wankery.

#31 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

@Durakken said:

@entropy_aegis said:

I would like to say something,

Red Robin was one of the WORST copouts i've ever seen,sorry but calling the TT against Ra's? what so smart about that?it's lazy,kinda like Batman asking Spectre to end all crime in Gotham,why does'nt Tim call them all the time?.Tim also never had any rational explanation for his Bruce is alive theory,writers kept teasing us for a whole year and we get some halfassed explanation of Tim looking at Mordecai's portrait and coming to the conclusion that it was actually Bruce Wayne.No way is this a feat of detective skills,and i still don't get his takeover of WE.Hush=Bruce Wayne in the minds of the people who were running WE,if Hush's decisions were overturned by those guys then that means Tim can kick Bruce out of his own company even though it was Bruce who made him incharge through his will(WTF).Just thinking about this hurts my head,the will part was utterly IDIOCTIC.

Tim knows about time travel. If Tim figured that the portrait was Bruce then it must have happened at a future point then Bruce couldn't be dead... Its really simple.

They never said that Tim took over via the will. The will was never read. They said that Bruce had made it possible that had Tim ever the need he could take over the company from Bruce and Fox had set in motion those procedures. It's a fairly common thing in any company that has stake holders to have a way to oust the person in charge for whatever reasons.

HUH? everyone knows about time travel.Tim was just smashing some stuff,sees the portrait and say's HOLY CRAP it's Bruce,sorry does'nt make sense and the portraits were always there.Morrison himself stated that there would be no going in to the past and changing the future type story.Everything that happened was pre-destined to happen or had already happened.Bruce never altered the timeline in anyway.So no.

Tim has the power to overrule Bruce?now this is where it goes from trying to make Tim look awesome to full blown wankery.

I didn't say altering the future. I said that Tim could have figured that since he didn't know of any time Bruce time traveled into the past and took up that identity...and that looks a lot like Bruce... then it is reasonable to assume that at some future point Bruce had to have gone back in time for that picture to exist.

Not over-rule Bruce, but rather if Bruce started destroying the company or he wasn't in his right mind, there are procedures to oust the majority stakeholder as the person who gets to decide how the company is ran. It's likely they just set up some way for them to do that easily.

#32 Edited by SmoothJammin (2333 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect: I agree! Although the two were roughly the same age when they left the cave, and Tim outcasted himself from the family. He wasn't pushed away. There was little more Dick could teach Tim and Damian needed guidance. I seem to recall Tim in his robin series stating that he never wanted to grow up to be batman, his duty was always meant as a partnership. I can believe that since every indication pointed towards Tim mainstaying the role irregardless of age. But you're right, Bruce was cetainly molding him to be Batman. Of course this was when he led a normal life, went to school, and had parents(what made me a fan).

Dick said as long as he was robin, he could pretend that nothing bad would ever happen to Bruce. They'd just keep doing the same thing forever and ever. As he grew older Dick understood deep down there would come a day when Bruce perished, that became the focal point of BFTC. Nightwing dicking around(no pun intended) until he overcame his denial and embraced destiny. He wasn't afraid or reluctant but taking on the cowl meant accepting an ugly truth. I bring this up because Bruce's thing has always been to allow Grayson room to grow on his own. So strongly in his belief he'd choose a nutjob like JPV over Dick to succeed him. In his eyes, Nightwing honored his contract as Robin and deserved the freedom to become whatever he wanted.(Though dick had no problem filling in/stepping up). Tim on the other hand was sadly brainwashed/manipulated by Bruce to distance himself from friends in identity crisis, suffered numerous tragedies throughout his young life, seen so many heroes die and miraculously come back... he detached himself from the rest of the world as Red Robin. He is the perfect candidate for the role and I can't argue that. I think it'll be wild to see Tim thrive as Batman. My problem is when ppl knock Dick for bringing something new to the table.

#33 Posted by SmoothJammin (2333 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg: What about The Question? I can see that happening too.

#34 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin: Where does that Kori' page and the Bruce yelling at Dick page next to it come from?

I don't like when a character has his own title, but if not all the major events in their life take place in other books... Both Dick and Tim are constantly having this done... more so Dick though. Dick's title is more about not working with the rest of continuity.

#35 Posted by SmoothJammin (2333 posts) - - Show Bio

@Durakken: The one with Kori is from Teen Titans/ Outsiders Secret files and Origins 2005. The one of Dicks emancipation is from Nightwing:The Lost Year Tpb

#36 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin said:

@fodigg: What about The Question? I can see that happening too.

That would certainly work but I'd miss Renee as the Question. I really like that character after 52.

#37 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@SmoothJammin said:

@fodigg: What about The Question? I can see that happening too.

That would certainly work but I'd miss Renee as the Question. I really like that character after 52.

Too bad she'd dead.

#38 Posted by entropy_aegis (15198 posts) - - Show Bio

@Durakken said:

@fodigg said:

@SmoothJammin said:

@fodigg: What about The Question? I can see that happening too.

That would certainly work but I'd miss Renee as the Question. I really like that character after 52.

Too bad she'd dead.

She's alive.@Durakken said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@Durakken said:

@entropy_aegis said:

I would like to say something,

Red Robin was one of the WORST copouts i've ever seen,sorry but calling the TT against Ra's? what so smart about that?it's lazy,kinda like Batman asking Spectre to end all crime in Gotham,why does'nt Tim call them all the time?.Tim also never had any rational explanation for his Bruce is alive theory,writers kept teasing us for a whole year and we get some halfassed explanation of Tim looking at Mordecai's portrait and coming to the conclusion that it was actually Bruce Wayne.No way is this a feat of detective skills,and i still don't get his takeover of WE.Hush=Bruce Wayne in the minds of the people who were running WE,if Hush's decisions were overturned by those guys then that means Tim can kick Bruce out of his own company even though it was Bruce who made him incharge through his will(WTF).Just thinking about this hurts my head,the will part was utterly IDIOCTIC.

Tim knows about time travel. If Tim figured that the portrait was Bruce then it must have happened at a future point then Bruce couldn't be dead... Its really simple.

They never said that Tim took over via the will. The will was never read. They said that Bruce had made it possible that had Tim ever the need he could take over the company from Bruce and Fox had set in motion those procedures. It's a fairly common thing in any company that has stake holders to have a way to oust the person in charge for whatever reasons.

HUH? everyone knows about time travel.Tim was just smashing some stuff,sees the portrait and say's HOLY CRAP it's Bruce,sorry does'nt make sense and the portraits were always there.Morrison himself stated that there would be no going in to the past and changing the future type story.Everything that happened was pre-destined to happen or had already happened.Bruce never altered the timeline in anyway.So no.

Tim has the power to overrule Bruce?now this is where it goes from trying to make Tim look awesome to full blown wankery.

I didn't say altering the future. I said that Tim could have figured that since he didn't know of any time Bruce time traveled into the past and took up that identity...and that looks a lot like Bruce... then it is reasonable to assume that at some future point Bruce had to have gone back in time for that picture to exist.

Not over-rule Bruce, but rather if Bruce started destroying the company or he wasn't in his right mind, there are procedures to oust the majority stakeholder as the person who gets to decide how the company is ran. It's likely they just set up some way for them to do that easily.

No it's not reasonable to assume at all and the writers never bothered explaining it,that's not the detective work Tim has been famed for.

And what would happen if Tim wen't mad and stole everything?see it's about as logical as Bruce not being in his right mind.It was just a moronic excuse which was completly ignored within a month(Dr Hurt).

#39 Posted by BlackArmor (6137 posts) - - Show Bio

@Durakken: Actually i think Tim accepted himself on the last page of Red Robin series when he seems to take ownership of a lot of things. his acceptence of the persona was just implied though and not stated so i could be wrong

#40 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis :

Renee Montoya is dead according to Batwoman #1. Until a comic says otherwise that is the reality of DCnU

Intuition is part of Detective work.

Yes it is dumb... doesn't mean it is any less true.

#41 Posted by daredevil21134 (11462 posts) - - Show Bio

Tim is cool and this is coming from a die hard Jason Todd fan.So good job Rain Effect

#42 Edited by entropy_aegis (15198 posts) - - Show Bio

@Durakken said:

@entropy_aegis :

Renee Montoya is dead according to Batwoman #1. Until a comic says otherwise that is the reality of DCnU

Intuition is part of Detective work.

Yes it is dumb... doesn't mean it is any less true.

Renee Montoya is alive and is a supporting character in Batgirl,Batwoman has conitnuity problems.It also acknowledged Terra as a Teen Titans who've fought Deathstroke even though Tim's Titans is the first incarnation of the team and Deathstroke past will be made up as we go along.

#43 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

@Durakken said:

@entropy_aegis :

Renee Montoya is dead according to Batwoman #1. Until a comic says otherwise that is the reality of DCnU

Intuition is part of Detective work.

Yes it is dumb... doesn't mean it is any less true.

Renee Montoya is alive and is a supporting character in Batgirl,Batwoman has conitnuity problems.It also acknowledged Terra as a Teen Titans who've fought Deathstroke even though Tim's Titans is the first incarnation of the team and Deathstroke past will be made up as we go along.

Where in Renee Montoya then? maybe it will be explained later, but until it is Renee is dead.

Tim's Teen Titans are not the first incarnation of the Titans... just the first team to have those characters. That is what was meant by where you are pulling what you are thinking.

#44 Edited by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@Durakken: Renee was definitely discussed in Batwoman though she did not make an appearance and it's unclear if she's the Question or not. I don't recall her being mentioned as "dead" in Batwoman, they were just discussing her picture. However, she's slated to return to her role as a GCPD officer, not as the Question, according to Didio:

Renee will be seen as a member of the Gotham City Police Force.
{source}

Not the same thing as being dead, although I don't know why they'd take the Question gig from her unless they were planning on giving it back to Sage.

#45 Edited by entropy_aegis (15198 posts) - - Show Bio

@Durakken said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@Durakken said:

@entropy_aegis :

Renee Montoya is dead according to Batwoman #1. Until a comic says otherwise that is the reality of DCnU

Intuition is part of Detective work.

Yes it is dumb... doesn't mean it is any less true.

Renee Montoya is alive and is a supporting character in Batgirl,Batwoman has conitnuity problems.It also acknowledged Terra as a Teen Titans who've fought Deathstroke even though Tim's Titans is the first incarnation of the team and Deathstroke past will be made up as we go along.

Where in Renee Montoya then? maybe it will be explained later, but until it is Renee is dead.

Tim's Teen Titans are not the first incarnation of the Titans... just the first team to have those characters. That is what was meant by where you are pulling what you are thinking.

This is the first incarnation of the TT,DC said so recently in the NYCC.Montoya is a supporting character in the current Batgirl series,do your research first.Batwoman has been on hold for months,it is entirely possible that it was written well before the reboot.

To be fair to you,DC itself does'nt know much.Didio has stated that they'll be making up history as they move along,Kyle Higgins(Deathstroke writer) also confirmed that he does'nt know what part of Deathstroke's life is canon or not.

#46 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

@Durakken said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@Durakken said:

@entropy_aegis :

Renee Montoya is dead according to Batwoman #1. Until a comic says otherwise that is the reality of DCnU

Intuition is part of Detective work.

Yes it is dumb... doesn't mean it is any less true.

Renee Montoya is alive and is a supporting character in Batgirl,Batwoman has conitnuity problems.It also acknowledged Terra as a Teen Titans who've fought Deathstroke even though Tim's Titans is the first incarnation of the team and Deathstroke past will be made up as we go along.

Where in Renee Montoya then? maybe it will be explained later, but until it is Renee is dead.

Tim's Teen Titans are not the first incarnation of the Titans... just the first team to have those characters. That is what was meant by where you are pulling what you are thinking.

This is the first incarnation of the TT,DC said so recently in the NYCC.Montoya is a supporting character in the current Batgirl series,do your research first.Batwoman has been on hold for months,it is entirely possible that it was written well before the reboot.

To be fair to you,DC itself does'nt know much.Didio has stated that they'll be making up history as they move along,Kyle Higgins(Deathstroke writer) also confirmed that he does'nt know what part of Deathstroke's life is canon or not.

DC has never said that this Teen Titans is the first incarnation. I can't think of the specific words and I don't care to look it up, but what they meant is that this is the first time Bart, Tim, and Connor has teamed up like this...ie Young Justice and Teen Titans v3 never happened. They say nothing as to the Teen Titans never showing up before then.

The Titans are referenced in other comics in the New 52. Particularly, Red Hood and the Outlaws.

And further, why are you going off what DC said in the past rather than what they have shown in the books? It is clear that they have lied several times about is and is not included in the continuity of this world. And yes I say lied because they've known for several months now what we in the DCnU books which don't work in any way with some of the things they have said.

#47 Posted by entropy_aegis (15198 posts) - - Show Bio

@Durakken said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@Durakken said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@Durakken said:

@entropy_aegis :

Renee Montoya is dead according to Batwoman #1. Until a comic says otherwise that is the reality of DCnU

Intuition is part of Detective work.

Yes it is dumb... doesn't mean it is any less true.

Renee Montoya is alive and is a supporting character in Batgirl,Batwoman has conitnuity problems.It also acknowledged Terra as a Teen Titans who've fought Deathstroke even though Tim's Titans is the first incarnation of the team and Deathstroke past will be made up as we go along.

Where in Renee Montoya then? maybe it will be explained later, but until it is Renee is dead.

Tim's Teen Titans are not the first incarnation of the Titans... just the first team to have those characters. That is what was meant by where you are pulling what you are thinking.

This is the first incarnation of the TT,DC said so recently in the NYCC.Montoya is a supporting character in the current Batgirl series,do your research first.Batwoman has been on hold for months,it is entirely possible that it was written well before the reboot.

To be fair to you,DC itself does'nt know much.Didio has stated that they'll be making up history as they move along,Kyle Higgins(Deathstroke writer) also confirmed that he does'nt know what part of Deathstroke's life is canon or not.

DC has never said that this Teen Titans is the first incarnation. I can't think of the specific words and I don't care to look it up, but what they meant is that this is the first time Bart, Tim, and Connor has teamed up like this...ie Young Justice and Teen Titans v3 never happened. They say nothing as to the Teen Titans never showing up before then.

The Titans are referenced in other comics in the New 52. Particularly, Red Hood and the Outlaws.

And further, why are you going off what DC said in the past rather than what they have shown in the books? It is clear that they have lied several times about is and is not included in the continuity of this world. And yes I say lied because they've known for several months now what we in the DCnU books which don't work in any way with some of the things they have said.

They said that Dick,Roy,Kory DID get together but they DID NOT use the Titan name,this was stated AFTER Red Hood was published but it's not like it's contradicting Red Hood either.Oh and if you're so sure then please tell me WHO THE FRAK is Dustin?

DC still has no clue about the continuity of the new 52 and they are clearing it up with each interview/con appearence etc.I've already adressed Red Hood and Batwoman.

#48 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

@Durakken said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@Durakken said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@Durakken said:

@entropy_aegis :

Renee Montoya is dead according to Batwoman #1. Until a comic says otherwise that is the reality of DCnU

Intuition is part of Detective work.

Yes it is dumb... doesn't mean it is any less true.

Renee Montoya is alive and is a supporting character in Batgirl,Batwoman has conitnuity problems.It also acknowledged Terra as a Teen Titans who've fought Deathstroke even though Tim's Titans is the first incarnation of the team and Deathstroke past will be made up as we go along.

Where in Renee Montoya then? maybe it will be explained later, but until it is Renee is dead.

Tim's Teen Titans are not the first incarnation of the Titans... just the first team to have those characters. That is what was meant by where you are pulling what you are thinking.

This is the first incarnation of the TT,DC said so recently in the NYCC.Montoya is a supporting character in the current Batgirl series,do your research first.Batwoman has been on hold for months,it is entirely possible that it was written well before the reboot.

To be fair to you,DC itself does'nt know much.Didio has stated that they'll be making up history as they move along,Kyle Higgins(Deathstroke writer) also confirmed that he does'nt know what part of Deathstroke's life is canon or not.

DC has never said that this Teen Titans is the first incarnation. I can't think of the specific words and I don't care to look it up, but what they meant is that this is the first time Bart, Tim, and Connor has teamed up like this...ie Young Justice and Teen Titans v3 never happened. They say nothing as to the Teen Titans never showing up before then.

The Titans are referenced in other comics in the New 52. Particularly, Red Hood and the Outlaws.

And further, why are you going off what DC said in the past rather than what they have shown in the books? It is clear that they have lied several times about is and is not included in the continuity of this world. And yes I say lied because they've known for several months now what we in the DCnU books which don't work in any way with some of the things they have said.

They said that Dick,Roy,Kory DID get together but they DID NOT use the Titan name,this was stated AFTER Red Hood was published but it's not like it's contradicting Red Hood either.Oh and if you're so sure then please tell me WHO THE FRAK is Dustin?

DC still has no clue about the continuity of the new 52 and they are clearing it up with each interview/con appearence etc.I've already adressed Red Hood and Batwoman.

So you're saying the comics are wrong and the people who clearly don't know how to put together continuity are right... Good job.

#49 Posted by entropy_aegis (15198 posts) - - Show Bio

@Durakken said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@Durakken said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@Durakken said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@Durakken said:

@entropy_aegis :

Renee Montoya is dead according to Batwoman #1. Until a comic says otherwise that is the reality of DCnU

Intuition is part of Detective work.

Yes it is dumb... doesn't mean it is any less true.

Renee Montoya is alive and is a supporting character in Batgirl,Batwoman has conitnuity problems.It also acknowledged Terra as a Teen Titans who've fought Deathstroke even though Tim's Titans is the first incarnation of the team and Deathstroke past will be made up as we go along.

Where in Renee Montoya then? maybe it will be explained later, but until it is Renee is dead.

Tim's Teen Titans are not the first incarnation of the Titans... just the first team to have those characters. That is what was meant by where you are pulling what you are thinking.

This is the first incarnation of the TT,DC said so recently in the NYCC.Montoya is a supporting character in the current Batgirl series,do your research first.Batwoman has been on hold for months,it is entirely possible that it was written well before the reboot.

To be fair to you,DC itself does'nt know much.Didio has stated that they'll be making up history as they move along,Kyle Higgins(Deathstroke writer) also confirmed that he does'nt know what part of Deathstroke's life is canon or not.

DC has never said that this Teen Titans is the first incarnation. I can't think of the specific words and I don't care to look it up, but what they meant is that this is the first time Bart, Tim, and Connor has teamed up like this...ie Young Justice and Teen Titans v3 never happened. They say nothing as to the Teen Titans never showing up before then.

The Titans are referenced in other comics in the New 52. Particularly, Red Hood and the Outlaws.

And further, why are you going off what DC said in the past rather than what they have shown in the books? It is clear that they have lied several times about is and is not included in the continuity of this world. And yes I say lied because they've known for several months now what we in the DCnU books which don't work in any way with some of the things they have said.

They said that Dick,Roy,Kory DID get together but they DID NOT use the Titan name,this was stated AFTER Red Hood was published but it's not like it's contradicting Red Hood either.Oh and if you're so sure then please tell me WHO THE FRAK is Dustin?

DC still has no clue about the continuity of the new 52 and they are clearing it up with each interview/con appearence etc.I've already adressed Red Hood and Batwoman.

So you're saying the comics are wrong and the people who clearly don't know how to put together continuity are right... Good job.

So you're saying that the guys who write the comics are wrong but the comics which are written by those very individuals are right...Good job.

But i don't remember saying anything like that either,Montoya is ALIVE,this is a fact.The rest of the DCNU is just full of contradictions,DC is not yet clear on their own continuity so they are making it up as they go along.That's all what i was trying to say.

Basically it's poor management.

#50 Posted by SmoothJammin (2333 posts) - - Show Bio

I know they've said Teen Titans is coming together for the first time, then I've heard from other sources that it's another incarnation..the continuity stuff is mind blogging but I just read for the stories

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