Why I hate Tim "(enter insult here)" Drake

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Posted by Rabbit_May_Cry (303 posts) - - Show Bio

It's no secret that I hate Tim "(well, my favorite insult to use is Bitch-Made)" Drake, but people are always askin' me why. So I've decided to tell everyone here exactly why.

But before I do, I just want you all to know that...I don't give a f*** what you all think about him...(probably because I can't remember where my f***s are, so I can't give 'em because I can't find 'em). These are all MY opinions, which only make them facts to ME. You on the other hand...deal with it.

Now, let's dive right into it. I hate Tim for a multitude of reasons.

1. He's the least experience fighter in the bat-family. He isn't a master of anything.

2. He tries to follow in Jason's foot steps too much. I guess in some weird way to feel better he STOLE Jason's Red Robin costume and persona. 'Cause there's no explanation for this. He just up and had it one day...without Jason permission.

3. He's ALWAYS bitchin'. He bitched to become Robin...He bitched when Jason came back to life...He bitched when he thought Jason killed Dula Dent...He bitched when Jason was Batman...He bitched when Jason wanted to kill the person who stole his Red Robin costume the first time...And he bitched EVERY time Jason kicked his ass.

4. Damian Wayne already beat him up. He may not had won the fight to others, but if a 10 year old does that much damage to ANYteenager in a fight...The 10 year old won.

5. Number 3, and 4 prove Tim's a bitch. Which is why I always call him Tim "Bitch-Made" Drake.

I hate that puss so much I made a character called Tom Drake with VERY similar looks, character and story. DarcStorm keeps callin' him Drake Timmons though. But DarcStorm's gonna kill him in a VERY OVER THE TOP brutal death.

I hate him...I hate him-I hate him- I HATE him.

Fans of Tim's make it even easier to hate him because of the stupidity they bring to arguments about him. Like what I said earlier about the Red Robin thing for instance. When Jason stole Grayson's Nightwing costume and persona, fans were livid about this. Reason...because Jason was damagin' Grayson's character. Jason was usin' Grayson's identity to kill criminals, and that's NOT what Grayson does...so jea, there's a reason to be mad here. But when you turn the other cheek when Tim does this to Jason, it proves how blindly bias you really are. No-one seems to care that Tim has Stolen Jason's Red Robin costume and persona, but he's still damagin' Jason's character. Tim uses Jason's identity to stop and arrest criminals, and that's NOT what Jason does. So why aren't people upset about that?

Lookin' the other way when one of your favorite characters does somethin' you ripped into another character for doin' doesn't help your favorite character.

Now, keepin' with the whole "Tim fans bring stupidity to arguments", Tim fans for some reason...(I call it retardation)...believe that Tim can tie, and even beat Jason in one-on-one fights...which is BEYOND incredible dumbassery. So, lets go over some facts here.

Jason is stronger than Tim...this is non-negotiable, as Jason has proven that he's the strongest bat-son in the family.

Jason is more agile than Tim...And this is also true because Jason's agility is always compared to bein' only second to Grayson's.

Jason is faster than Tim...Jason's fightin' is always said to focus on speed and brutality, and it would be stupid to focus on a flaw instead of a strength. I also believe that Jason might be the fastest Bat-family member in terms of just speed (not agility).

Jason is a better martial artist than Tim...As proven that Tim hasn't mastered a damn, while Jason has mastered several...(at the very least 6)...fightin' styles.

Jason is more strategical than Tim...As even Bruce and Grayson have fallen for Jason's plans and Traps.

Jason utilizes gadgets better than Tim...This has no need to be explained.

Tim is more Intelligent than Jason...Book smart wise,That's it. Although Jason is more streets smart than Tim.

Jason is more endurable than Tim...As proven in every fight that they've had.

So when comparin' mental and physical stats between Jason and Tim...7 out of 8 go to Jason by HUGE margins. So how could Tim EVER hope to even tie with...(never mind beat)...someone who literally overshadows him in every aspect?...(except book smarts).

I hate when every Tim fan wants to say that Jason cheated to win fights when 2 things are there to disprove that.

1...How is it cheatin' to know how to use your surroundings to help you in a fight?, How is Jason cheatin' just because Tim doesn't know how to use his surroundings?

2...Jason and Tim's fights always start off hand-to-hand, one-on-one...but then TIM always grabs a weapon on Jason. So how could Jason cheat to win if he's just evenin' things out by usin' a weapon when Tim's uses a weapon. The fight in Titans Tower, Tim fans say that Jason had to gas Tim to win...but didn't Tim pull his Bo-staff out first...and STILL got his ass kicked for it?...JEA!! Then Jason and Tim's fight in Battle for the Cowl. Jason was chokin' Tim, and Tim again' used a weapon first when he grabbed that crowbar and hit Jason with it repeatedly, and when Jason used a weapon what happened...he dropped Tim's weak-self. And everybody said Jason cheated 'cause he used a batarang.

So my question here is...How is it cheatin' to use a weapon on a person who's usin' a weapon on you?

You see how stupid Tim fans are, because with all this proof...they STILL think I'm wrong.

Let's revisit my #4 comment again. There are 4 sons in the Bat-family which means rivalries will happen. But people seem to have the rivals all wrong. The rivalries should go Grayson vs Jason and Tim vs Damian. As this is the only way they compare, because in order to have a rival, you need to rival them in something.

Jason and Grayson have stats over each other Strength...Jason, Agility...Grayson, Speed... debatable who's fastest, Martial artist...I think it's tied. Jason has mastered more fightin' styles than Grayson...(to my knowledge)...but Grayson has his own fightin' style that no-one knows. Strategist...Jason, Intelligence...Grayson, and Durability would probably be a tie as well.

So when it comes down to it...these 2 are about even, makin' them rivals because they have stats over each other.

Tim and Damian are more the same way as Grayson and Jason because Tim and Damian have stats over each other as well. I think Damian is more agile, and has better martial arts trainin' than Tim. So while Tim has 1 stat over Jason...that doesn't make them rivals, because Damian has more than 1 over Tim.

But do Tim fans understand this?...no. They just try to make up excuses to maneuver around that FACTS that are said. And when they do this just remember the facts...and point and laugh at their moronic wishful thinkin'.

'Cause it's funny. And it's also why I hate Tim.

Which reminds me... http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/darcstorm/cause-its-funny/87-70295/

#1 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio

As someone who has debated with you in the past, and eventually conceded defeat after your persuasion (remember that topic? The 'Why is Jason #127' or whatever), I have to say you make some very valid points. While I don't necessarily like some of the points, they are rational and you did say they are your opinion. I try not to be one of those horrid Tim Drake fans that you stated. If you asked me me who I liked the least out of Tim, Jason and Dick, I'd say Dick. I can't stand Dick, I don't mind Jason (he has his likable moments, though I don't like the New 52 Jason) and I really connect with Tim.
 
It's an interesting blog, but what will be more interesting is to see if you get Tim fans who are less reserved than me, hah!

#2 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

Jason is stronger than Tim...this is non-negotiable, as Jason has proven that he's the strongest bat-son in the family.
 

Didn't Dick Grayson throw Jason around in Battle for the Cowl?
 
Also...umm what? I was not aware there was such a Jason/Tim controversy going on.

#3 Posted by katanalauncher (937 posts) - - Show Bio
#4 Posted by SmoothJammin (2333 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect said:

As someone who has debated with you in the past, and eventually conceded defeat after your persuasion (remember that topic? The 'Why is Jason #127' or whatever), I have to say you make some very valid points. While I don't necessarily like some of the points, they are rational and you did say they are your opinion. I try not to be one of those horrid Tim Drake fans that you stated. If you asked me me who I liked the least out of Tim, Jason and Dick, I'd say Dick. I can't stand Dick, I don't mind Jason (he has his likable moments, though I don't like the New 52 Jason) and I really connect with Tim. It's an interesting blog, but what will be more interesting is to see if you get Tim fans who are less reserved than me, hah!

Why don't you like Grayson? Just curious

#5 Posted by luckydomino1 (491 posts) - - Show Bio

very good read you make some valid ponits i agree with you on this i never knew him and damien fought and he lost wow tim drake i face plam you

#6 Posted by Rabbit_May_Cry (303 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect:

I remember. I even remember the number...it's 96. And I wasn't talkin' about you, I was talkin' about ALL the people who keep askin' why? I don't want to constantly have to explain over and over the very many reasons why I hate such a...(in my opinion)...useless character.

But why don't you like Grayson? To me the thing that makes him amazin' is that he doesn't fight crime because he's obsessed with it...(like another pointy cowl-eared person I know). He fights crime because he enjoys it. He's liked and respected by everyone in the DC universe, he's funny, and his agility is the best DC universe has to offer...(and he's just a human). The thing that I like to bring to peoples attention is that Everyone in the DC universe has heard of Bruce, but everyone in the DC universe KNOWS Grayson. To me, Grayson's more of a legend than Bruce because of this.

Also, Jason's character in the new DCnU is the same...just less "Bat-crazed" than he's usually portrayed as. Which is a plus to me.

@TheCrowbar: Jea Grayson beat Jason...but majority of the stories...(not to mention Jason's added 20+lbs. of muscle over Grayson) depict Jason as the stronger of the 2. In brute strength of course.

And I don't think there's a controversy goin' on about it. I was just sayin' what annoys me about what people say. How Tim fans keep tryin' to put Tim on Jason's level...and it just CAN'T happen.

As I've said before a true to character fight between Jason and Tim would end in less than a minute with Tim's death. Because Tim can't fight equally with Jason, and Jason not killin' Tim only proves that Jason never fights him seriously.

@katanalauncher said:

I have no idea what you mean by this? Are you sayin' I'm mad as in...that took balls to say 'cause it's so true? Or are you sayin' I'm mad as in...I'm crazy 'cause this is a lie?

@luckydomino1 said:

very good read you make some valid ponits i agree with you on this i never knew him and damien fought and he lost wow tim drake i face plam you

No, Tim didn't really lose the fight...to the majority of people. But to me, if a 10 year old fights a teenager with enough skill to hurt him...the teenager lost. So to me, Damian beat Tim. Hell, another 10 year old put Tim in the hospital. I don't remember his name though.

#7 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

Tim took the Red Robin persona to redeem it after it was defiled by Jason, he didn't steal his legacy. Jason doesn't have a legacy. He just copies other people because he doesn't know who he is. Incidentally, Jason is the dumbest male member of the Bat-family.  
 
Yes, even Damian is smarter than Jason.  

#8 Edited by Rabbit_May_Cry (303 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

Tim took the Red Robin persona to redeem it after it was defiled by Jason, he didn't steal his legacy. Jason doesn't have a legacy. He just copies other people because he doesn't know who he is. Incidentally, Jason is the dumbest male member of the Bat-family. Yes, even Damian is smarter than Jason.

And THIS is what I meant about Tim fans.

How is the persona not Jason's when it was created FOR Jason? A Batman from a different universe created it for Jason, and gave it to Jason. So Red Robin IS Jason. Makin' it his to do whatever he wants with it.

And Tim can't redeem it if it started in Jason's hands.

Not to mention the Batman that gave that persona to Jason was a brutal Bruce that DID kill, and had no problem with Jason killin'. So how would Tim be redeemin' it by just stoppin' criminals, and arrestin' them? If he doesn't kill the criminals then he's misusin' the persona. And again...Tim STOLE it, but you're still tryin' to dance around that fact.

Stupid Tim fans...always tryin' to throw away the facts when Tim's at fault.

#9 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@Rabbit_May_Cry said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

Tim took the Red Robin persona to redeem it after it was defiled by Jason, he didn't steal his legacy. Jason doesn't have a legacy. He just copies other people because he doesn't know who he is. Incidentally, Jason is the dumbest male member of the Bat-family. Yes, even Damian is smarter than Jason.

And THIS is what I meant about Tim fans.

How is the persona not Jason's when it was created FOR Jason? A Batman from a different universe created it for Jason, and gave it to Jason. So Red Robin IS Jason. Makin' it his to do whatever he wants with it.

And Tim can't redeem it if it started in Jason's hands.

Not to mention the Batman that gave that persona to Jason was a brutal Bruce that DID kill, and had no problem with Jason killin'. So how would Tim be redeemin' it by just stoppin' criminals, and arrestin' them? If he doesn't kill the criminals then he's misusin' the persona. And again...Tim STOLE it, but you're still tryin' to dance around that fact.

Stupid Tim fans...always tryin' to throw away the facts when Tim's at fault.

 
The Red Robin persona was used in Kingdom Come by Dick Grayson, it has since been used by DC to symbolise Robins that have "left the nest" like Jason did, and Tim has. It is an interim identity, one used until the wearer can find the path that suits them best. 
 
And Tim didn't steal anything, Jason discarded it, Tim took it up.  
 
And for the record, I'm not a big Tim fan, I just know what I'm talking about, so it's understandable that you got confused. 
#10 Posted by luckydomino1 (491 posts) - - Show Bio

so when is he gonna hurry up and get his own costume or is he gonna stay like that

#11 Edited by Rabbit_May_Cry (303 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@Rabbit_May_Cry said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

Tim took the Red Robin persona to redeem it after it was defiled by Jason, he didn't steal his legacy. Jason doesn't have a legacy. He just copies other people because he doesn't know who he is. Incidentally, Jason is the dumbest male member of the Bat-family. Yes, even Damian is smarter than Jason.

And THIS is what I meant about Tim fans.

How is the persona not Jason's when it was created FOR Jason? A Batman from a different universe created it for Jason, and gave it to Jason. So Red Robin IS Jason. Makin' it his to do whatever he wants with it.

And Tim can't redeem it if it started in Jason's hands.

Not to mention the Batman that gave that persona to Jason was a brutal Bruce that DID kill, and had no problem with Jason killin'. So how would Tim be redeemin' it by just stoppin' criminals, and arrestin' them? If he doesn't kill the criminals then he's misusin' the persona. And again...Tim STOLE it, but you're still tryin' to dance around that fact.

Stupid Tim fans...always tryin' to throw away the facts when Tim's at fault.

The Red Robin persona was used in Kingdom Come by Dick Grayson, it has since been used by DC to symbolise Robins that have "left the nest" like Jason did, and Tim has. It is an interim identity, one used until the wearer can find the path that suits them best. And Tim didn't steal anything, Jason discarded it, Tim took it up. And for the record, I'm not a big Tim fan, I just know what I'm talking about, so it's understandable that you got confused.

Jason discarded it by puttin' it away. He didn't throw it in the trash. That's like if someone walked into the batcave and grabbed one of Bruce's old Batman suits. Does that mean that they can now become Batman? Or did they steal it?

Wasn't kingdom Come a different universe? I'm askin' this because I'm not sure. But I'm pretty sure that the other times the Red Robin persona was used, it was in different universe. Which STILL doesn't exclude Tim from stealin' it. It was stolen before, when Jason put it away...but he went after the person who stole it the first time. And while Jason got arrested, Tim stole it.

You say you know what you're talkin' about...but you still keep tryin' to sweep the fact that Tim stole it under the rug. Tsk-tsk...

@luckydomino1 said:

so when is he gonna hurry up and get his own costume or is he gonna stay like that

He's not...he's just gonna wait until Jason stops bein Red Hood, then he'll steal that too.

#12 Posted by Billy Batson (57944 posts) - - Show Bio

Didn't Tim beat up Damian rather easily after their first fight?
BB

#13 Edited by Rabbit_May_Cry (303 posts) - - Show Bio

@Billy Batson said:

Didn't Tim beat up Damian rather easily after their first fight?
BB

I don't know...I don't read Tim books. Doesn't matter anyway because when they fought the first time...(to me)...Tim lost. Because a 10 year old was STILL givin' him problems in a fight. And Damian wasn't the only 10 year old that beat Tim. As I said before another one put him in the hospital.

#14 Edited by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio
@SmoothJammin: @Rabbit_May_Cry
 
Why that's precisely why I don't like him; he just doesn't seem flawed. I respect that he's made a name for himself throughout the DC Universe, I respect that other people respect him, but what irritates me the most is that he just seems too likable. Bear with me, I know that sounds ridiculous and I should be shot in the foot for it, but look at it this way. Bruce is one, if not the, most respected human being in the DC Universe. However, he has his flaws. He offends people by how emotionally-devoid/detached he is, and how dis-trusting he is towards others. He keeps secret countermeasures in case anyone turns (something he has modeled Tim to do, as seen in The List) and this offends people. Dick, on the other hand, pleases everyone. It's not a human quality, you can't please everyone. Sooner or later, one of your teammates is going to get pissed off at you. 
 
I liked it when he slept with Huntress and that offended Barbara, it was one of the first times I've ever seen Dick face the concequence of a bad decision, because he never seems to make them. We're human, we make horrid decisions sometimes - it is how we learn and mature. I respect Dick's ability, I respect the name he has created for himself, but I don't respect his character.
 
Edit: After re-reading my post a couple of times, I realised something. The 'pleasing everyone' aspect I mentioned? I think the reason I hate it is because I used to try to be like that and it ended badly. I copped a lot of trash and I suppose there is some kind of sub-conscious bias. Sorry to go all Sigmund Freud, I'm just speculating.
#15 Posted by DomDom (1013 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm a Dick Grayson fan....DICK GRAYSON!!!! So no one can say I'm one of those I quote" 'stupid' Tim Drake Fans". 
Clearly everyone is intitled to their own personal opinion but to be calling people names and slapping a good DC character in the face left 'n right is a little excessive and RUDE! 
 
I'm not trying to fuel the fire, just please stop downing the fans and pointing out so-called facts you don't have the entire story about, meaning-- If you don't read any Tim Drake comics, CLEARLY you can't know every fact about him and his level of skill and his intentions.   
 
To me...you're one of those "Haters"...and i know you don't have to like a character, heck you can hate them...but there is a place and time when to keep it to yourself. 

Dick Grayson Fan
...signing off. =)
#16 Posted by Baddamdog (2223 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow so aggressive

#17 Edited by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

#1. Not true. Bad writers and writers that refuse to read Tim's back story info would know that Tim is better trained and more experienced than Dick, Damian, Jason. He's better trained but less experienced than Bruce. Tim was trained by every teacher that Bruce was trained by, plus Bruce, plus Shiva, plus other masters that Bruce doesn't know about. Dick is a natural acrobat which makes him better in the air, plus he has a decent level of experience, and is an instinct fighter which makes him a better fighter when your opponent is unknown... which means Tim is a better fighter in the long term and if there's time to prepare. Jason is not well trained at all. He was trained by Bruce and that organization they just introduced. They might have secret techniques, but fighting wise he should be the worst fighter of the Bat family. The thing that allows him to be on even ground is his willingness to use dangerous tactics. Damian was trained as a fighter since birth and took Tim by surprise plus Tim tried to not hurt him plus his fighting style and such was unknown so Tim was at a severe disadvantage in that "fight"... Further both Dick and Bruce believe that Tim is the best and will one day surpass both of them if he hasn't already.

#2. Tim didn't "steal" the Red Robin costume. Jason threw it in the trash and a villain took it and used it. The family, knowing it's history saved it. The first change over was when Tim needed head covering cuz he was burned so he put on a mantle-cape. Once Dick said he wasn't Robin anymore he was lost and didn't know where he was going or if he was going to something that would blemish the other names so he took the Red Robin name and costume to protect all the other mantles, because the Red Robin mantle was already stained. It's made clear at the beginning of Red Robin that he doesn't feel that this is his identity in any way which is why he never altered the costume from what it was initially to make it like what he liked. Tim in his mind is still Robin, or at least was at the end of Red Robin.

#3. No.

#4. Surprise attack from a natural fighter who has been trained to be an assassin since birth by the the most dangerous people on Earth and Tim didn't know his fighting style. Giving someone that many advantages over a persons weaknesses and with bad writers what do expect would happen?

#5. No

I take it you like Jason. Nothing wrong with that, but that Jason character you like is reliant on all the attributes you hate about the other characters.

#18 Posted by longbowhunter (7047 posts) - - Show Bio

I stopped reading when you said your opinions are facts. To you or other wise is still an oxymoron.

#19 Posted by darth_brendroid (1717 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the argument though with Tim and Red Robin is that it isn't the same as the Jason and Nightwing case. Dick Grayson is Nightwing - that's the identity that he's shaped for himself over the past few decades and it's the character he's evolved into. With Jason using that to kill criminals, it's a perversion of what Dick's worked hard to create.

With Jason, however, my understanding was that he took up the Red Robin mantle over the course of one storyline that was completed in about a year. He then assumed the Batman role (I think) before going back to Red Hood. For Jason, Red Hood is the identity that he's slowly becoming identified with. Red Robin's not as associated with Jason to the degree that Red Hood is.

In both cases, Dick and Jason took the identities off of other characters - Superman and Joker respectively (though the Superman link I think has been downplayed since the original Crisis). They've done their best to create their own identities using those names. I understand that you don't like Tim as a relatively weak-link in the Bat-Family, but to say he's not allowed to do the same as Dick and Jason and adopt an unused identity seems like double standards.

I think I prefer Batman solo, though. The Robin dynamic adds to the character, but I think I like his interactions with his enemies most.

#20 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect said:

@SmoothJammin: @Rabbit_May_Cry:

Why that's precisely why I don't like him; he just doesn't seem flawed. I respect that he's made a name for himself throughout the DC Universe, I respect that other people respect him, but what irritates me the most is that he just seems too likable. Bear with me, I know that sounds ridiculous and I should be shot in the foot for it, but look at it this way. Bruce is one, if not the, most respected human being in the DC Universe. However, he has his flaws. He offends people by how emotionally-devoid/detached he is, and how dis-trusting he is towards others. He keeps secret countermeasures in case anyone turns (something he has modeled Tim to do, as seen in The List) and this offends people. Dick, on the other hand, pleases everyone. It's not a human quality, you can't please everyone. Sooner or later, one of your teammates is going to get pissed off at you.

I liked it when he slept with Huntress and that offended Barbara, it was one of the first times I've ever seen Dick face the concequence of a bad decision, because he never seems to make them. We're human, we make horrid decisions sometimes - it is how we learn and mature. I respect Dick's ability, I respect the name he has created for himself, but I don't respect his character.

Edit: After re-reading my post a couple of times, I realised something. The 'pleasing everyone' aspect I mentioned? I think the reason I hate it is because I used to try to be like that and it ended badly. I copped a lot of trash and I suppose there is some kind of sub-conscious bias. Sorry to go all Sigmund Freud, I'm just speculating.

I hate Dick Grayson because he messes up constantly and people still view him as a great guy who's flawless. He's an extremely broken character with him being raped, becoming a criminal, and killing Joker. The fact he continues to try to get out being in the shadow of the Bat shows his brokenness. Nightwing would be a great book to explore this but they refuse to... and only when he's Batman or when Bruce is dead can he really heal because of his view of Bruce... too bad that won't happen again ^.^

#21 Posted by Dernman (14959 posts) - - Show Bio

I have always been of the opinion Robin should only train or deal with High school level threats.

#22 Posted by daredevil21134 (11472 posts) - - Show Bio

@Durakken said:

@RainEffect said:

@SmoothJammin: @Rabbit_May_Cry:

Why that's precisely why I don't like him; he just doesn't seem flawed. I respect that he's made a name for himself throughout the DC Universe, I respect that other people respect him, but what irritates me the most is that he just seems too likable. Bear with me, I know that sounds ridiculous and I should be shot in the foot for it, but look at it this way. Bruce is one, if not the, most respected human being in the DC Universe. However, he has his flaws. He offends people by how emotionally-devoid/detached he is, and how dis-trusting he is towards others. He keeps secret countermeasures in case anyone turns (something he has modeled Tim to do, as seen in The List) and this offends people. Dick, on the other hand, pleases everyone. It's not a human quality, you can't please everyone. Sooner or later, one of your teammates is going to get pissed off at you.

I liked it when he slept with Huntress and that offended Barbara, it was one of the first times I've ever seen Dick face the concequence of a bad decision, because he never seems to make them. We're human, we make horrid decisions sometimes - it is how we learn and mature. I respect Dick's ability, I respect the name he has created for himself, but I don't respect his character.

Edit: After re-reading my post a couple of times, I realised something. The 'pleasing everyone' aspect I mentioned? I think the reason I hate it is because I used to try to be like that and it ended badly. I copped a lot of trash and I suppose there is some kind of sub-conscious bias. Sorry to go all Sigmund Freud, I'm just speculating.

I hate Dick Grayson because he messes up constantly and people still view him as a great guy who's flawless. He's an extremely broken character with him being raped, becoming a criminal, and killing Joker. The fact he continues to try to get out being in the shadow of the Bat shows his brokenness. Nightwing would be a great book to explore this but they refuse to... and only when he's Batman or when Bruce is dead can he really heal because of his view of Bruce... too bad that won't happen again ^.^

When did he kill Joker

#23 Posted by SmoothJammin (2333 posts) - - Show Bio

@luckydomino1 said:

so when is he gonna hurry up and get his own costume or is he gonna stay like that

lol

#24 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@daredevil21134 said:

@Durakken said:

@RainEffect said:

@SmoothJammin: @Rabbit_May_Cry:

Why that's precisely why I don't like him; he just doesn't seem flawed. I respect that he's made a name for himself throughout the DC Universe, I respect that other people respect him, but what irritates me the most is that he just seems too likable. Bear with me, I know that sounds ridiculous and I should be shot in the foot for it, but look at it this way. Bruce is one, if not the, most respected human being in the DC Universe. However, he has his flaws. He offends people by how emotionally-devoid/detached he is, and how dis-trusting he is towards others. He keeps secret countermeasures in case anyone turns (something he has modeled Tim to do, as seen in The List) and this offends people. Dick, on the other hand, pleases everyone. It's not a human quality, you can't please everyone. Sooner or later, one of your teammates is going to get pissed off at you.

I liked it when he slept with Huntress and that offended Barbara, it was one of the first times I've ever seen Dick face the concequence of a bad decision, because he never seems to make them. We're human, we make horrid decisions sometimes - it is how we learn and mature. I respect Dick's ability, I respect the name he has created for himself, but I don't respect his character.

Edit: After re-reading my post a couple of times, I realised something. The 'pleasing everyone' aspect I mentioned? I think the reason I hate it is because I used to try to be like that and it ended badly. I copped a lot of trash and I suppose there is some kind of sub-conscious bias. Sorry to go all Sigmund Freud, I'm just speculating.

I hate Dick Grayson because he messes up constantly and people still view him as a great guy who's flawless. He's an extremely broken character with him being raped, becoming a criminal, and killing Joker. The fact he continues to try to get out being in the shadow of the Bat shows his brokenness. Nightwing would be a great book to explore this but they refuse to... and only when he's Batman or when Bruce is dead can he really heal because of his view of Bruce... too bad that won't happen again ^.^

When did he kill Joker

Joker acted like he killed Tim and Dick bought it... and then he out right killed him. Bruce then seeing what Dick did resurrected Joker in the lazarus pit, not because he wanted Joker alive, but because he didn't want Joker's blood on Dick's hands.

I don't know where it happened, but I would guess it happened during the time Joker and Ra's teamed up.

#25 Posted by daredevil21134 (11472 posts) - - Show Bio

@Durakken said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@Durakken said:

@RainEffect said:

@SmoothJammin: @Rabbit_May_Cry:

Why that's precisely why I don't like him; he just doesn't seem flawed. I respect that he's made a name for himself throughout the DC Universe, I respect that other people respect him, but what irritates me the most is that he just seems too likable. Bear with me, I know that sounds ridiculous and I should be shot in the foot for it, but look at it this way. Bruce is one, if not the, most respected human being in the DC Universe. However, he has his flaws. He offends people by how emotionally-devoid/detached he is, and how dis-trusting he is towards others. He keeps secret countermeasures in case anyone turns (something he has modeled Tim to do, as seen in The List) and this offends people. Dick, on the other hand, pleases everyone. It's not a human quality, you can't please everyone. Sooner or later, one of your teammates is going to get pissed off at you.

I liked it when he slept with Huntress and that offended Barbara, it was one of the first times I've ever seen Dick face the concequence of a bad decision, because he never seems to make them. We're human, we make horrid decisions sometimes - it is how we learn and mature. I respect Dick's ability, I respect the name he has created for himself, but I don't respect his character.

Edit: After re-reading my post a couple of times, I realised something. The 'pleasing everyone' aspect I mentioned? I think the reason I hate it is because I used to try to be like that and it ended badly. I copped a lot of trash and I suppose there is some kind of sub-conscious bias. Sorry to go all Sigmund Freud, I'm just speculating.

I hate Dick Grayson because he messes up constantly and people still view him as a great guy who's flawless. He's an extremely broken character with him being raped, becoming a criminal, and killing Joker. The fact he continues to try to get out being in the shadow of the Bat shows his brokenness. Nightwing would be a great book to explore this but they refuse to... and only when he's Batman or when Bruce is dead can he really heal because of his view of Bruce... too bad that won't happen again ^.^

When did he kill Joker

Joker acted like he killed Tim and Dick bought it... and then he out right killed him. Bruce then seeing what Dick did resurrected Joker in the lazarus pit, not because he wanted Joker alive, but because he didn't want Joker's blood on Dick's hands.

I don't know where it happened, but I would guess it happened during the time Joker and Ra's teamed up.

WOW!! And he's a glorified hero

#26 Posted by ruralrural (2 posts) - - Show Bio

Dude, promise me, you'll not mad at me.

I love Tim very much but I agree with you! Tim was the weakest robin. He's some kind of bitchy bitchy bitchy. I don't understand why some Timmy fans praised him very much.

But all of the reasons you hate him are the reasons I love him! Tim isn't a perfect person, so I can love him easily. hahaha Frankly, I just love a cute boy who try to grow up to a cute man.

Please, don't get mad.

#27 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33019 posts) - - Show Bio
@Rabbit_May_Cry said:

@Billy Batson said:

Didn't Tim beat up Damian rather easily after their first fight?
BB

I don't know...I don't read Tim books. Doesn't matter anyway because when they fought the first time...(to me)...Tim lost. Because a 10 year old was STILL givin' him problems in a fight. And Damian wasn't the only 10 year old that beat Tim. As I said before another one put him in the hospital.

Yea he did, he was holding back in the first fight out of respect for bruce but the next time he wasn't holding back and I'm pretty sure Robin never even connected with a punch. 
 
Any ways your a pretty angry man
#28 Posted by entropy_aegis (15198 posts) - - Show Bio

@Durakken said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@Durakken said:

@RainEffect said:

@SmoothJammin: @Rabbit_May_Cry:

Why that's precisely why I don't like him; he just doesn't seem flawed. I respect that he's made a name for himself throughout the DC Universe, I respect that other people respect him, but what irritates me the most is that he just seems too likable. Bear with me, I know that sounds ridiculous and I should be shot in the foot for it, but look at it this way. Bruce is one, if not the, most respected human being in the DC Universe. However, he has his flaws. He offends people by how emotionally-devoid/detached he is, and how dis-trusting he is towards others. He keeps secret countermeasures in case anyone turns (something he has modeled Tim to do, as seen in The List) and this offends people. Dick, on the other hand, pleases everyone. It's not a human quality, you can't please everyone. Sooner or later, one of your teammates is going to get pissed off at you.

I liked it when he slept with Huntress and that offended Barbara, it was one of the first times I've ever seen Dick face the concequence of a bad decision, because he never seems to make them. We're human, we make horrid decisions sometimes - it is how we learn and mature. I respect Dick's ability, I respect the name he has created for himself, but I don't respect his character.

Edit: After re-reading my post a couple of times, I realised something. The 'pleasing everyone' aspect I mentioned? I think the reason I hate it is because I used to try to be like that and it ended badly. I copped a lot of trash and I suppose there is some kind of sub-conscious bias. Sorry to go all Sigmund Freud, I'm just speculating.

I hate Dick Grayson because he messes up constantly and people still view him as a great guy who's flawless. He's an extremely broken character with him being raped, becoming a criminal, and killing Joker. The fact he continues to try to get out being in the shadow of the Bat shows his brokenness. Nightwing would be a great book to explore this but they refuse to... and only when he's Batman or when Bruce is dead can he really heal because of his view of Bruce... too bad that won't happen again ^.^

When did he kill Joker

Joker acted like he killed Tim and Dick bought it... and then he out right killed him. Bruce then seeing what Dick did resurrected Joker in the lazarus pit, not because he wanted Joker alive, but because he didn't want Joker's blood on Dick's hands.

I don't know where it happened, but I would guess it happened during the time Joker and Ra's teamed up.

He did'nt use a pit,Joker was'nt braindead,he was clinically dead.Tim's reaction was exagerrated.

#29 Posted by entropy_aegis (15198 posts) - - Show Bio

And the OP has some severe Tim issues.

#30 Posted by TheGoldenOne (38849 posts) - - Show Bio
Tim was the best Robin imo.
#31 Posted by Superguy0009e (2265 posts) - - Show Bio

no offense, but jason is just a whiny a hole too, it's the whole reason he died.

Waaah i don't want to listen to bruce waaaah i don't like bruce waaah bruce doesn't trust me

tim may be bad...but it's jason complete jack a$$ery that causes him to die

#32 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (12943 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheGoldenOne said:
Tim was the best Robin imo.
this. but the op hates Tim to a psychopathic extent and refuses to use any logic and/or reason. He makes the vast majority of his Tim arguments on hatred/here-say/ignorance.
 
He's also a major Jason Todd fanboy which helps explain why. seeing as how Tim did everything the op's favorite didn't/couldn't.
#33 Posted by Supreme Marvel (11264 posts) - - Show Bio

Tim held back against Damien, the same way he does against Dick and Bruce (not that he'd win against them). Any fight pre-Red Robin fight he always held back against Damien. In Red Robin, Damien cut Tim's line while patrolling. Causing Tim to kick the crap out of Damien.

Just saying.

#34 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio
@RainEffect said:
As someone who has debated with you in the past, and eventually conceded defeat after your persuasion (remember that topic? The 'Why is Jason #127' or whatever), I have to say you make some very valid points. While I don't necessarily like some of the points, they are rational and you did say they are your opinion. I try not to be one of those horrid Tim Drake fans that you stated. If you asked me me who I liked the least out of Tim, Jason and Dick, I'd say Dick. I can't stand Dick, I don't mind Jason (he has his likable moments, though I don't like the New 52 Jason) and I really connect with Tim.  It's an interesting blog, but what will be more interesting is to see if you get Tim fans who are less reserved than me, hah!
I don't think we can be friends anymore Rainy... I just don't think its possible :(
:P
Seriously though:
@TheCrowbar said:

Jason is stronger than Tim...this is non-negotiable, as Jason has proven that he's the strongest bat-son in the family.
 

Didn't Dick Grayson throw Jason around in Battle for the Cowl?
 
Also...umm what? I was not aware there was such a Jason/Tim controversy going on.


Dick Grayson beat Jason with prep senseless, so no, Jason isn't the strongest member of the Bat-son family, Dick is. Its debatable whether Tim or Jason are second, though most would say Jason (including me), with Damian taking last place.
#35 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (12943 posts) - - Show Bio
@Rabbit_May_Cry said:

It's no secret that I hate Tim "(well, my favorite insult to use is Bitch-Made)" Drake, but people are always askin' me why. So I've decided to tell everyone here exactly why.

But before I do, I just want you all to know that...I don't give a f*** what you all think about him...(probably because I can't remember where my f***s are, so I can't give 'em because I can't find 'em). These are all MY opinions, which only make them facts to ME. You on the other hand...deal with it.

 
You must be new to the internet. Your post makes it sound like you actually expect other people not to voice they're opinions even though that's pretty much what a forum is for. either that or you actually have such a high opinion of yourself that you actually expect people not to answer simply because you say so.
 
 

Now, let's dive right into it. I hate Tim for a multitude of reasons.

1. He's the least experience fighter in the bat-family. He isn't a master of anything.

2. He tries to follow in Jason's foot steps too much. I guess in some weird way to feel better he STOLE Jason's Red Robin costume and persona. 'Cause there's no explanation for this. He just up and had it one day...without Jason permission.

 
It's actually been explained several times in the Tim books that you don't read but still like  to talk about.  
   
 Tim chose the Red Robin mantle because he felt that it did not mean anything. If he screwed up or finally went over the edge one day, it  wouldn't be the mantle of someone important to him or the world like Batman or Nightwing. It would be Jason who few people in the DC Universe cares about. Jason had abandoned the mantle long ago, Tim did not steal anything. 
 
 
 

3. He's ALWAYS bitchin'. He bitched to become Robin...He bitched when Jason came back to life...He bitched when he thought Jason killed Dula Dent...He bitched when Jason was Batman...He bitched when Jason wanted to kill the person who stole his Red Robin costume the first time...And he bitched EVERY time Jason kicked his ass.

Yep, being pissed when a psychotic goes around murdering people.......which is kind of what heroes do.............guess Batman must be a major bitch.
 
 

4. Damian Wayne already beat him up. He may not had won the fight to others, but if a 10 year old does that much damage to ANYteenager in a fight...The 10 year old won.

 
Your argument is asinine,    doing damage to someone and winning the fight are not exclusive. Damian didn't beat Tim up. he sucker punched him.  
 

5. Number 3, and 4 prove Tim's a bitch. Which is why I always call him Tim "Bitch-Made" Drake.

I hate that puss so much I made a character called Tom Drake with VERY similar looks, character and story. DarcStorm keeps callin' him Drake Timmons though. But DarcStorm's gonna kill him in a VERY OVER THE TOP brutal death.

I hate him...I hate him-I hate him- I HATE him.

congratulations, you have an obsessive hate for a fictional character so intense that actually take time out of your day to write fictional stories about a character modeled after him.... which is a point how? 
 
how can you actually expect people to take your opinions/arguments seriously when you post irrelevant crap  that only shows how biased you are against the character.
 

Fans of Tim's make it even easier to hate him because of the stupidity they bring to arguments about him. Like what I said earlier about the Red Robin thing for instance. When Jason stole Grayson's Nightwing costume and persona, fans were livid about this. Reason...because Jason was damagin' Grayson's character. Jason was usin' Grayson's identity to kill criminals, and that's NOT what Grayson does...so jea, there's a reason to be mad here. But when you turn the other cheek when Tim does this to Jason, it proves how blindly bias you really are. No-one seems to care that Tim has Stolen Jason's Red Robin costume and persona, but he's still damagin' Jason's character. Tim uses Jason's identity to stop and arrest criminals, and that's NOT what Jason does. So why aren't people upset about that?

Why would people be mad.......Tim took an identity that Jason used for five minutes and then abandoned and did what Jason couldn't. Whereas Jason took a mantle that actually held a great deal of respect and did everything that said mantle was supposed to be against. It seems that the only people who WOULD be mad about it is someone being bitter about Tim succeeding where Jason gave up/screwed up..........AGAIN
 
 

Lookin' the other way when one of your favorite characters does somethin' you ripped into another character for doin' doesn't help your favorite character.

Now, keepin' with the whole "Tim fans bring stupidity to arguments", Tim fans for some reason...(I call it retardation)...believe that Tim can tie, and even beat Jason in one-on-one fights...which is BEYOND incredible dumbassery. So, lets go over some facts here.

Jason is stronger than Tim...this is non-negotiable, as Jason has proven that he's the strongest bat-son in the family.

Jason is more agile than Tim...And this is also true because Jason's agility is always compared to bein' only second to Grayson's.

Jason is faster than Tim...Jason's fightin' is always said to focus on speed and brutality, and it would be stupid to focus on a flaw instead of a strength. I also believe that Jason might be the fastest Bat-family member in terms of just speed (not agility).

Jason is a better martial artist than Tim...As proven that Tim hasn't mastered a damn, while Jason has mastered several...(at the very least 6)...fightin' styles.

Jason is more strategical than Tim...As even Bruce and Grayson have fallen for Jason's plans and Traps.

Jason utilizes gadgets better than Tim...This has no need to be explained.

Tim is more Intelligent than Jason...Book smart wise,That's it. Although Jason is more streets smart than Tim.

Jason is more endurable than Tim...As proven in every fight that they've had.

 
the words are strategic, intellectual/academic and durable.......don't presume to break the rules of the site and call others stupid if you can't even type like a big boy. 
 

So when comparin' mental and physical stats between Jason and Tim...7 out of 8 go to Jason by HUGE margins. So how could Tim EVER hope to even tie with...(never mind beat)...someone who literally overshadows him in every aspect?...(except book smarts).

I hate when every Tim fan wants to say that Jason cheated to win fights when 2 things are there to disprove that.

1...How is it cheatin' to know how to use your surroundings to help you in a fight?, How is Jason cheatin' just because Tim doesn't know how to use his surroundings?

2...Jason and Tim's fights always start off hand-to-hand, one-on-one...but then TIM always grabs a weapon on Jason. So how could Jason cheat to win if he's just evenin' things out by usin' a weapon when Tim's uses a weapon. The fight in Titans Tower, Tim fans say that Jason had to gas Tim to win...but didn't Tim pull his Bo-staff out first...and STILL got his ass kicked for it?...JEA!! Then Jason and Tim's fight in Battle for the Cowl. Jason was chokin' Tim, and Tim again' used a weapon first when he grabbed that crowbar and hit Jason with it repeatedly, and when Jason used a weapon what happened...he dropped Tim's weak-self. And everybody said Jason cheated 'cause he used a batarang.

So my question here is...How is it cheatin' to use a weapon on a person who's usin' a weapon on you?

You see how stupid Tim fans are, because with all this proof...they STILL think I'm wrong.

Wow. You actually made a valid point. who says there is no such thing as miracles 
 

Let's revisit my #4 comment again. There are 4 sons in the Bat-family which means rivalries will happen. But people seem to have the rivals all wrong. The rivalries should go Grayson vs Jason and Tim vs Damian. As this is the only way they compare, because in order to have a rival, you need to rival them in something.

Jason and Grayson have stats over each other Strength...Jason, Agility...Grayson, Speed... debatable who's fastest, Martial artist...I think it's tied. Jason has mastered more fightin' styles than Grayson...(to my knowledge)...but Grayson has his own fightin' style that no-one knows. Strategist...Jason, Intelligence...Grayson, and Durability would probably be a tie as well.

So when it comes down to it...these 2 are about even, makin' them rivals because they have stats over each other.

Tim and Damian are more the same way as Grayson and Jason because Tim and Damian have stats over each other as well. I think Damian is more agile, and has better martial arts trainin' than Tim. So while Tim has 1 stat over Jason...that doesn't make them rivals, because Damian has more than 1 over Tim.

 
God you are a moron. you do know that their is more then one actual definition of rival?  
 
Wasn't Jason obsessed with proving he was a better Robin than Tim was? To the point where he broke into Titans Tower and attacked several innocent people (Tim included).
  
By the way , here is the actual definition of rival.
1. One who attempts to equal or surpass another, or who pursues the same object as another; a competitor.


But do Tim fans understand this?...no. They just try to make up excuses to maneuver around that FACTS that are said. And when they do this just remember the facts...and point and laugh at their moronic wishful thinkin'.

'Cause it's funny. And it's also why I hate Tim.

Which reminds me... http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/darcstorm/cause-its-funny/87-70295/

over all the the only statements that you made that were remotely correct are the combat/skill portions which you stretched out/ repeated over to draw attention from the more idiotic points over your thread.
  
No wonder you like Jason so much, your both ego-maniacal ,posturing, brain-damaged morons who have to devote yourself to hating your betters in order to distract yourself from what utter fools/failures you really are.
#36 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (12943 posts) - - Show Bio

note: my post above regarding Rabbit and his Jason fetish does not apply to or meant towards any other fans of the character. least of all the ones who can conduct themselves in a well thought out and civilized manner.

#37 Posted by batflasharrow96 (445 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't really think Jason is the strongest "Bat-son" I think he's slightly behind or just on par with Dick. The reason I think so is because Jason uses lethal techniques and Dick doesn't. Dick would probably have to be very careful when fighting someone as tough as Jason so he won't accidentally kill Jason all the while Jason just wants the guy he's fighting dead. If Jason used only non lethal techniques he probably would put up a good fight with Dick but still get defeated. I'm not saying this because Dick's the oldest and most experienced but because it's what adds up. It's kind of like how it's arguable if Batman's the greatest fighter in the DCnU. Most of his competitors use lethal force and he puts up an EXCELLENT fight, if not defeating them occasionally.

#38 Posted by Telcalipoca (957 posts) - - Show Bio

@daredevil21134 said:

@Durakken said:

@daredevil21134 said:

@Durakken said:

@RainEffect said:

@SmoothJammin: @Rabbit_May_Cry:

Why that's precisely why I don't like him; he just doesn't seem flawed. I respect that he's made a name for himself throughout the DC Universe, I respect that other people respect him, but what irritates me the most is that he just seems too likable. Bear with me, I know that sounds ridiculous and I should be shot in the foot for it, but look at it this way. Bruce is one, if not the, most respected human being in the DC Universe. However, he has his flaws. He offends people by how emotionally-devoid/detached he is, and how dis-trusting he is towards others. He keeps secret countermeasures in case anyone turns (something he has modeled Tim to do, as seen in The List) and this offends people. Dick, on the other hand, pleases everyone. It's not a human quality, you can't please everyone. Sooner or later, one of your teammates is going to get pissed off at you.

I liked it when he slept with Huntress and that offended Barbara, it was one of the first times I've ever seen Dick face the concequence of a bad decision, because he never seems to make them. We're human, we make horrid decisions sometimes - it is how we learn and mature. I respect Dick's ability, I respect the name he has created for himself, but I don't respect his character.

Edit: After re-reading my post a couple of times, I realised something. The 'pleasing everyone' aspect I mentioned? I think the reason I hate it is because I used to try to be like that and it ended badly. I copped a lot of trash and I suppose there is some kind of sub-conscious bias. Sorry to go all Sigmund Freud, I'm just speculating.

I hate Dick Grayson because he messes up constantly and people still view him as a great guy who's flawless. He's an extremely broken character with him being raped, becoming a criminal, and killing Joker. The fact he continues to try to get out being in the shadow of the Bat shows his brokenness. Nightwing would be a great book to explore this but they refuse to... and only when he's Batman or when Bruce is dead can he really heal because of his view of Bruce... too bad that won't happen again ^.^

When did he kill Joker

Joker acted like he killed Tim and Dick bought it... and then he out right killed him. Bruce then seeing what Dick did resurrected Joker in the lazarus pit, not because he wanted Joker alive, but because he didn't want Joker's blood on Dick's hands.

I don't know where it happened, but I would guess it happened during the time Joker and Ra's teamed up.

WOW!! And he's a glorified hero

dick is flawed with a rage button that he cant control (reason why i like him) hes not all bright colors

as for what happened and where. during jokers last laugh the joker wanted robin dead and everyone on the bat family thought croc who was working for the joker had killed him.when learning this dick strangled the joker til he had no pulse. not wanting dick to have blood on his hands and letting joker win(the guy wanted it killed a bird and made a former one loose its path 2 wins) ressitated the joker.That isnt the first time dick has lost it when blockbuster killed every resident on dicks building after learning his identity he threaten to kill everyone he knew or even anyone who so much as greet him.All the while laughing thinking dick wouldnt kill him or allow tarantual to kill him because of his stupid code ,which was followed by dick moving to the right and letting tarantula take the shot right on blockbusters face.Then theres the time shriek got the drop on dick and used him as a pinata when he freed himself he gave shriek a few shots.He hit him without getting touched and went overboard with the hits needed to take him down.right before he was about to end shrieks life or coming close to it black canary yelled at dick to stop that made him snapp out of it and told shriek that twice youve almost made murderer.

Yes hes a hero whose come close to killing,allowed killing,killed but hey everyone looses it .i mean if hal can still be glorified then so can dick.

#39 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio
@Supreme Marvel said:

Tim held back against Damien, the same way he does against Dick and Bruce (not that he'd win against them). Any fight pre-Red Robin fight he always held back against Damien. In Red Robin, Damien cut Tim's line while patrolling. Causing Tim to kick the crap out of Damien.

Just saying.

Glorious moment. He literally broke Damian's face with punch. He then proceeded to say "You lost the second I started trying."
#40 Posted by Rabbit_May_Cry (303 posts) - - Show Bio

@batflasharrow96 said:

I don't really think Jason is the strongest "Bat-son" I think he's slightly behind or just on par with Dick. The reason I think so is because Jason uses lethal techniques and Dick doesn't. Dick would probably have to be very careful when fighting someone as tough as Jason so he won't accidentally kill Jason all the while Jason just wants the guy he's fighting dead. If Jason used only non lethal techniques he probably would put up a good fight with Dick but still get defeated. I'm not saying this because Dick's the oldest and most experienced but because it's what adds up. It's kind of like how it's arguable if Batman's the greatest fighter in the DCnU. Most of his competitors use lethal force and he puts up an EXCELLENT fight, if not defeating them occasionally.

I was referin' to brute strength. Like...who can bench the most, or who's more likely to throw a buggy the farthest. As I said before Jason has 20+lbs. of muscle on him than Grayson, so naturally that would mean he's stronger.

@STUPID TIM FANS: MY opinions DO make them facts to me, as they are something I believe is true...(and if it's true doesn't that make it fact?).

And Jason doesn't try to kill Grayson or Bruce...he just makes it look that way. He doesn't want them dead, he just wants them to feel somethin' for him...even if it's hatred. Tim on the other hand...well the writers won't let Jason kill him. 'Cause he would.

Over exaggerated ideas of what you have about what you think Tim can do doesn't mean that it's true. You see within' my opinions, I gave facts. But you Tim fans however...know no such thing. Tim holdin' back against fighters that are better than him is either a lie, or further proves his inexperience. And I didn't say he lost any fights against Damian as facts. I said to ME he lost to Damian because Damian did more damage to him than a 10 year old should be able to do to a...(supposedly)..."well trained" teenager. Which makes it 2 10 year old boys so far who've gave him more problems in fights than he's suppose to have, 1 actually put him in a hospital.

How is it that when Tim gets his ass kicked in fights that he's suppose to...it's bad writin'? But when he wins a fight that he shouldn't even be a challenge in, THAT'S good writin'?

And Tim bein' better trained is a full blown lie. Just because he trained with multiple people, doesn't mean that he's better trained than anyone...BECAUSE HE HASN'T MASTERED A DAMN!! Jason...mastered fightin' styles, Grayson...mastered fightin' styles, Bruce...mastered fightin' styles. Tim...NONE. I can spend 20 minutes trainin' with every martial arts master in the world...does that mean that I would be one of the best fighter in the world?...NO!! Because I haven't mastered a damn.

Tim bein' able to beat Jason is ridiculously retarded.

Tim: 5'8, 150lbs. Jason: 6' 200lbs.

Tim: Slower, weaker, less agile, and less endurable. Jason: Better stats, master hand-to-hand fighter.

These ARE facts, not just to me...these are actual facts.

Jason and Grayson are like Jackie Chan and Jet Lei...And Tim is like...Brian Kendrick. So you stupid Tim fans are basically sayin' that Brian Kendrick can beat Jackie Chan, and/or Jet Lei? And jea...this is how dumb you sound.

@Everyone else: What did I say Tim fans would do? Tryin' to avoid the facts. There is no lodgic in anything they're sayin'...just wishful thinkin'. Why would Tim hold back against people who are better than him? Why would Tim hold back against people tryin' to kill him? Their lies make no sense.

#41 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

If you don't care about our opinion about Tim Drake, why make a thread all about him?

#42 Posted by LightBright (4297 posts) - - Show Bio

Why does he suck because he can't fight? I respect your opinion but disagree with certain aspects. Tim is a legitimately skilled detective, which none of the other Robin's have been as successful with. They all have varying origins that impact what kind of hero they'll be. Dick was in the circus, ergo better act acrobatics etc. Jason had a hard upbringing, ergo tougher and better fighter. Tim figured out who Batman was, ergo better with detective work. They're all unique and can't really be compared to each other except for the fact that yes, each one is trying to live up to the legacy of the last one.

#43 Edited by Rabbit_May_Cry (303 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambit1024 said:

If you don't care about our opinion about Tim Drake, why make a thread all about him?

This wasn't about Tim fans. As you can see at the very beginnin' of my original post that this was to prove a point. And that point was WHY I hated Tim. Everyone how finds out I hate him always ask me why. So I put why...in a blog. That's ALL this is.

@LightBright said:

Why does he suck because he can't fight? I respect your opinion but disagree with certain aspects. Tim is a legitimately skilled detective, which none of the other Robin's have been as successful with. They all have varying origins that impact what kind of hero they'll be. Dick was in the circus, ergo better act acrobatics etc. Jason had a hard upbringing, ergo tougher and better fighter. Tim figured out who Batman was, ergo better with detective work. They're all unique and can't really be compared to each other except for the fact that yes, each one is trying to live up to the legacy of the last one.

And I say he sucks because bein' a detective doesn't equal better at fightin'. I never denied that he was the best at detective work. But as I said before, that would only help him FIND who he needs to fight...not BEAT them.

#44 Posted by longbowhunter (7047 posts) - - Show Bio

Again, BELIEVING something is true is not the same thing as KNOWING something is true. So, no your opinions still arent facts. Nobody's are, no matter how you look at it. If that was the case simply believing in god would prove his existence.

#45 Posted by Rabbit_May_Cry (303 posts) - - Show Bio

@longbowhunter said:

Again, BELIEVING something is true is not the same thing as KNOWING something is true. So, no your opinions still arent facts. Nobody's are, no matter how you look at it. If that was the case simply believing in god would prove his existence.

That's pretty freakin' flawed of you to say. As with those who believe in god, to them...it IS fact that he exist. While to those who don't, it's just believers opinion that he exist. So opinions are only facts to those that they apply to. It only becomes a true fact when all are convinced that it is provin'.

Tim bein' a bitch is fact to me. regardless of what others say or think. I know it to be true.

#46 Edited by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio
@Rabbit_May_Cry: On a side note, did you happen to glance at my reasoning for not being a Grayson fan? I'm interested in your response.
#47 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

Jason is and always has been a screw up, both for himself and others.

Yes, he is highly trained and better than most if not all the other Villains the Bat-family handles, but he is short sited, full of rage, doesn't know how to deal with anyone in a positive way. He's not a bad guy, but he has chosen... or rather was forced... on a hard path where he is willing to make that hard call to kill so that others don't.

The fight between Jason and Dick I would not call definitive simply because Jason didn't want to kill Dick and more than likely didn't want to be Batman. He likely was doing the same thing Tim was doing more or less, which was pushing Dick to be Batman and be Better because Jason views Bruce as the greatest person alive which is also where his angst comes from... Bruce is great, so then why didn't he kill Joker when Joker killed him.

Dick is the essence being trained to the point where he doesn't think anymore. You put him in a match with someone he knows what their moves are and all that he more than likely can beat them because he works on instinct and that means no thought and no hesitation. Even from a leadership standpoint the only reason he is such a good leader is because he views his team mates as extensions of himself and is a talker so all he has to do is switch from talking to the enemy to giving orders. This makes it look like he is more tactical minded than he is, but he's probably the easiest to defeat for the most trained fighters that don't rely solely on instinct.

Damian's problem is rage. He's a natural fighter and instinct based like Dick, but lacks the experience and has a ton of rage...and was trained to kill but tries not to. He's highly exploitable to anyone that picks up on this. He'll likely be better than Dick when he grows up, but I would say that he is currently slightly weaker than Jason overall simply due to Jason being an adult and having learned to use his anger.

If we're measure natural fighting talent Tim is 3rd below Dick and Damian, because he doesn't focus on it, but also because his physical training when he was younger was much less intense and focused so he simply isn't as developed in those areas. Where he excels how is tactics, strategy, thinking on his feet, analysis, and having a much larger and varied number of skills to draw from. And this is where people fall off in their understanding because if we equalized the 4 in everything other than simply execution and power it Tim would rank 2nd or 3rd behind Dick and maybe Damian (remember equalizing age) however, if we add figuring out weaknesses, strategizing, and executing that strategy... Tim becomes #1. Why? Simply because Tim only needs to survive long enough to figure something out and all of them can survive long enough in battle for that to occur. The difference is that Tim has more to draw on from training and is just better at figuring it out. That's another thing that people don't get....

Dick 1st student of Bruce, meaning Bruce made more mistakes when he taught him than the other 3 and Dick only trained via Bruce

Jason 2nd student, but didn't listen and wasn't under Bruce for long... and then trained by who we can guess taught the league of Assassin people who are inferior to the Bat-family.

Damian taught by league of assassin, and Dick which means he's getting Dick's mistakes as well as Bruce's with Dick

Tim was 3rd to be trained by Bruce which means Bruce was more refined in this case than the other 3. Tim also trained from Shiva who is highly refined and several other masters who are highly refined that only he was trained by plus all of Bruce's former master's. Then he also spent some time being trained by Dick and also competed against Oracle in terms of Cyber stuff.

So in terms of shear knowledge and ability outside of natural fighting talent Tim wins hands down. As Tim said to Ra's "I don't need to fight you. I already won"

#48 Edited by BlackArmor (6137 posts) - - Show Bio

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

@TheGoldenOne said:
Tim was the best Robin imo.
this. but the op hates Tim to a psychopathic extent and refuses to use any logic and/or reason. He makes the vast majority of his Tim arguments on hatred/here-say/ignorance. He's also a major Jason Todd fanboy which helps explain why. seeing as how Tim did everything the op's favorite didn't/couldn't.

QFT this and anything else X-Bolt said on this thread is true

also not only did tim beat damian he beat him after damian attacked him from behind and while he was hunting a very drunk and also armmed super villian at one point beating damian with said drunk super villian by throwing her at damian he did this all without breaking a sweat and ended with his staff to damian's neck in crime ally and Dick had to pull tim off Damian. Damian then proceeded to run almost crying to his room

#49 Posted by longbowhunter (7047 posts) - - Show Bio

So Rabbit, in your way of thinking "Facts" are opinions and "True Facts" are facts (as everyone else sees them). Got it! Now if thats not flawed logic I dont know what is.

#50 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rabbit_May_Cry said:

And Jason doesn't try to kill Grayson or Bruce...he just makes it look that way. He doesn't want them dead, he just wants them to feel somethin' for him...even if it's hatred. Tim on the other hand...well the writers won't let Jason kill him. 'Cause he would.

The fact you said that shows you don't understand the character of Jason Todd. Why would anyone care about your opinion about a character you don't like when you show yourself to be ignorant of a character you do like?

As far as "I believe Jason is best therefor some is a fact"

#1. that's not how facts work

#2. Anyone that thinks like that shows that they know they are wrong because no one who speaks truth fears actual facts. If what you say is true facts bare it out. There is no reason to say what I think is true whether or not the evidence supports what i think because the evidence always supports the person who is right. Not the delusional.

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