So if you know me and you prolly don't you know I'm a big Thor fan. So I'm on the IMDB and I was checking out the casting for the new movie. Anthony Hopkins as Odin, which is cool but I couldn't help but notice that Heimdall doesn't really look much like Heimdall. Because he's black. Before you all go nuts and talk like I'm some kind of racist hear what I gotta say. I'm not racist, there's plenty of black, hispanic, asian, alien, artificial intelligent characters in comics and I think that's great. My problem lies in the fact that, especially in movies, they throw in the "token minority" when it doesn't even fit. The Norse were white people. No big deal they were from Europe. So their Gods looked like they did. Big f'n deal. Why change that just because you "want to appeal to a bigger market" or some such thing. Maybe this guys a good actor and he'll portray the character well or whatever you never know I'm just saying.
While I'm on the subject why is it that some writers feel it so important to throw in a black person that they come up with this lame character who's sole concept is they're "the Black Guy". I know black people and I gotta say, to them, it's not that big of a deal. Believe it or not they're complex individuals just like everyone else with they're own lives and opinions and they don't fit this cookie cutter image that they always get in the media. It's crap. I hate it.
Let's hope for something different for Heimdall, or I'll kill whoever did their casting and wear their skin to cast the sequel.
Thor
Character » Thor appears in 8593 issues.
Thor Odinson is the All-father of Asgard /God of Thunder, offspring of All-Father Odin & Elder-Goddess Gaea. Combining the powers of both realms makes him an elder-god hybrid and a being of no perceivable limits. Armed with his enchanted Uru hammer Mjolnir which helps him to channel his godly energies. The mightiest and the most beloved warrior in all of Asgard, a staunch ally for good and one of the most powerful beings in the multiverse/omniverse. Thor is also a founding member of the Avengers.
The Thor Movie and why the Black Panther sucks.
sorry for the delay, my internet connection dropped nice and low. pay for high-speed, get dial-up speed.
thus is my life.
@MysterioMaximus said:
couldn't be helped. you posed several statements and rebuttals in single sentences. i broke them down to answer them individually and directly.
Well firstly, I didn’t mean it’s hard to follow in the sense of content, but rather that it’s actually just legitimately physically difficult to read and follow (and reply to) with all the separations and tampered with quotes. No offense.
so none taken. expect it to be phrased the same way, i'm going to have to ask you to suffer.
Secondly, I cannot help but feel you’re living in one delusion of grandeur.
I'm afraid thats just another thing your feeling.
My examples weren’t so much reflections of myself,
Didnt think they were persay, yourself and a small group though. And you were referring to my statement in a fashion that
you were saying your own personal opinions in parts, so i addressed them as that.
so much as common complaints associated with Dark Knights Joker not being prima-white,
I have seriously never seen that one until right at your post.
Topher Grace not being Brock build, and Green Goblin not resembling much of any Goblin I’m familiar with.
I know of them, but there was obviously a reason for it. if you really look at comic book films so many details are in fact
not right from the comics its ridiculous. also the majority of the people that registered these opinions also complain
about the original versions they should be just like anyways. its sort of a weak point, and its off base but ill get to that.
neither did i so im not. i referred to you as part of a group, not the whole. i said that specifically and highlighted it so you would've be confused.I cannot help but feel you’re living under a rock if you think that I would be the only one perturbed by these departures, nor did I say that I specifically was anyway.
that was the way you felt. likewise the dewsign went over well with the audience share. it was also done for reasons. ill get to that as wellFor my part, the only one that actually bothered me, though I personally would always rather the more comic accurate, was Green Goblin, nor am I picking on the suit so much as just stating a simple truth. The thing indeed resembles a power ranger.
see aboveComic book anal retentiveness isn’t MysterioMaximus exclusive; doubtful I’m even one of the worst.
Patton Oswald, sorry but he doesnt really matter in the grand scheme of things. i mean it. so much for his rant. Seinfeld rants about things too.We’re infamous for it, so much so that standup comic Patton Oswald even wrote an entire rant on the topic. It’s just kind of hard for me to believe that you’ve not seen the regular and inevitable nitpicking from many upon many fans of comic books.
and of course ive seen it, i referred to it in every post. but its also not the exclusive feeling either. this site and every thread on it is a very testament
to the varied difference of opinion within comic fans, and i mean its varied. im sure youve seen that. also means that the opinion your subscribing
to doesnt cast everyone's vote. in fact theres a good reason its the most popular opinion. its the same as the opinions that mudsling a celebrity.
the same as the drunk obnoxious guy (just a comparison, dont take it too literally) thats yelling. is the one that people pay the most attention to
because its shocking, negative and loud. the city likes its sunshine, but it loves its dirt even more.
i heard that opinion, and presented my reason why it wasnt right, but was actually moot. you quoted me and said " nay " but didnt provide why itAnd the ultimate point to my replies to you is simple: To some people aesthetics have value. By no means would I consider them above story, but I do think that visual accuracy has some part to play and in a series like Thor,
was " nay " you just iterated this same point.
ethnicity matters more than it has ever in a comic book adaptation.
because? your also going to have to link actual proof of this one BTW. sorry to call it out.you actually dodged this by using examples like Venom,
who isnt a change from his ethnicity in the comics.
well that kind of cancels out the whole thing then?If you disagree, to each their own. By no means will something like Heimdall being black have much (or really any) sway over how I feel when I walk out of the theater.
who? avi? i dont agree there either. first off topics are always free flowing here. they dont need to nor will meet how you want them regimented.As for the other guy, my apologies to never remembering his name, he doesn’t really matter.
I’m just trying to point out that he slightly derailed the topic. That is all.
thats freedom of speech. and i thought (?) made interesting points. the thing is (?) made a contrary opinion and put (?)self under fire. that
actually took some balls. still and again that has nothing to do with me. i can point out the fact that that person is okay with change in movies
when theyre own favorite character was done completely different on film. that is also saying something. avi felt offended by the
nature of the thread, and especially alot of the underlying points. that is that users right to post what they think, regardless of format.
---
now for the part im getting to.
first off, movies are never the same as their comic counterparts. im sure youve noticed. but do you know why?
because its impossible for them to be.
1. most of these comics took place in stories over several years, in several books. and i mean a long time.
it would literally be impossible to fit them into a movie. notice how movies like Watchmen and Sin City were almost
spot on (i say almost, and yes, some fans threw tizzes about the differences even there. that should tell you something).
they only had a few books. and they never changed in anyway themselves...
2. most comics and characters have changed and evolved majorly over time. the styles keep changing, the characterization,
the costumes, the powers, the characters themselves. so its pretty in passe to even claim what a character is supposed to
be exactly like you know? your version of preference for the character im sure differs from another fans.
3. theyre movies. duh! its an entirely different medium then a comic. if it looked and sounded (whereas it would be determined
in everyones head) just like a comic, it would be a comic, and not a movie. thats pretty self-explanatory
4. the money. want to know why Green Goblin looked the way he did? because they pitched the original costume at the theater
and they pissed themselves laughing. they knew theyre was no way anyone was going to see that as cool, nor believable.
maybe in a low-budget B movie, but not this. in fact im sure youve seen Ross's redesign. that was the next stage. but the overall
team involved just didnt like it/ and couldnt make it actually work on film.
5. continuing from that, alot of stuff in comics does not work in real life, physically. they can try and try and it just doesnt work.
definatly not with the resources at hand which, some may believe otherwise, studios are limited in. in fact most super hero
movies have not been most studios priority.
6. the idea has to sell to not only the studio, but to the masses as well. if it doesnt do that, it doesnt get financed and it doesnt get
greenlit. thats just the deal and there is no compromise, and no love for comic fans nostalgia. it indeed has to be something that
demographically is tested and considered a safe bet that it will make its money back, in fact comics themselves, and any product,
because ultimately thats what art is when its for sale has to do this. theyre number one legal responsibility is to their stockholders
and nothing else. and do you know how many people not only have to see a movie, but buy the DVD as well before a movie
pays for its own budget, and before a studio makes a profit? take that into account then the fact that no one wants to work for
peanuts either. you see, it has to be this way. its not a question of should. its either this, or nothing. we get no superhero movie
except for the wonderful low-budget Roger Corman Fantastic 4 movie
7. this is the big one, and i say this often and everyone dodges this one, but this is fact. the majority of the viewing audience, expected,
needed, and will, worldwide, do not read comics. they do not know the history of these characters. they also do not care about it either, made obvious
by the fact that they didnt bother with comics in the first place because that, yes, looked stupid and childish to them. this sint everyone of course.
but it is the significant percent of the viewing audience. the part that matters. the part that pays that aforementioned bill. so, while trying to make this
like the comic on one hand, it needs to be something those people want to see. taking one outside of oneself, you can pretty logical look over
any issue and say to yourself " would someone who has never even heard of this, and not only doesnt read comics, but doesnt have any interest
in even action cartoons want to see this? would my mother? " because these are the type of things that matter, and matter in that way that if theyre
not there, the movie does one of two things. it doesnt happen, which is less likely because the studio nows what theyre doing and why, and will
already have augmented the comic to fit what they need to have to make a film, or two, it flops hard. know what happens if we make movies just
like their comic counterparts? especially the early silly, 4 color inked, extremely racists ones? they crash and burn and then Hollywood says
" You know what, these superheros are a lost cause, dump them and lets go back to making Spaghetti Westerns for awhile so we can recover
from the financial disaster this just caused us."
want one additional movies are different from comics, especially in Marvels case? because all of their properties and the stories
and things related to the characters, are tied up in different movie companies. each have to not only ask permission each and
every time they use something, they have to pay them a sum. this is why it was Beta Ray Bill in the Planet Hulk animated, something
which alot of people where pissed about. Silver Surfer was working for Fox, he couldnt come play in Lionsgates sandbox. This factors
in to live action films being changed as of course, most superheros stories are intertwined, and its one of the largest parts of the comic-verses
continuity.
all that outside what was already said, its a different continuity. its a reboot of the comic. its Ultimates. its streamlined and made into something
more modern for everyone, because while the 40's comics worked, they worked in the 40's and for the small group that read them, which like
this or not, were predominantly children. that stuff worked then and for that, but it doesnt now. Stan Lee can vow for this as he changed his name
just because of the fact that even that was looked that down upon at the time. dont you notice how comics...now, are completely different versions
than they were? they evolved. in fact alot of the current standards made are in fact to open them up for a huge surgance of new readers coming in
after seeing the movies and meeting the characters for the first time. look at the costume designs on the Grant Morrison run of X-men for example mirroring the movie ones.
likewise, its not the 40's and 50's, so the movies need to be modernized as well. mathematically, and including the above factors and many more, it just
wont work.
now to get to this " token black person" thing
now, lets cut the fat out here and get to the real issue. race. it is. do you want to know how i can say that?
here, i'll show you. this is Heimdall....
notice a difference? yeah, pretty much everything about him. in fact his physical features are even different.
n fact his hair color even changed tone. so much for that then.
so were are the examples where being black in a white role didnt work. well, we have Wilson Fisk, aka Kingpin, and Catwoman.
some fans didnt like this. but heres some things ive noticed. first off Catwoman.
this is Eartha Kitt. this went over well, no lie
K. So why was Hale berry Catwoman. Token black person? But she was the star of the film, so that doesnt add up?
Because WB wanted to make a movie about a black Catwoman? Nope. Because Hale Berry showed dedication to the role,
and because audiences at the time wanted to pay to see her on film. Thats why.
But, this one nosedived right? Ive heard tow reasons for this. One, because Catwoman isnt black. Two, because the story was wrong.
I hope youve guessed why that assessment is wrong? Its because the majority of the people that are going to pay to see the movie dont care
about the comics, they dont read them, and they dont care what color Catwomans skin is, see Eartha Kitt. the movie bombed because
it was poorly done, and it wasnt interesting. They tried to get a solo Catwoman film off the ground ever since Pfeiffer , but after enough research they
found that not enough, key word, people were interested. So they kept it on the drawing table, and finally got it greenlit, bit it failed, because even though
Catwoman has alot of fans, this movie wasnt going to work.
Now to the less infamous character. Kingpin. Why was Kingpin black. Well, one of the reasons was because it is actually more realistic for the Kingpin of
crime in Hells Kitchen New York to be a black man. Right? Nope. Because the movie needed o appeal to an African-Amercian demographic?
Nope. I read the interviews on this when it was in production. The film studio went out of their way to not give Michael Clarke Duncan this
role. he didnt fit the images they already had figured out for the white character. but alot of the crew of the film went to bat heavily to make sure it was him,
and theyre sole reason was because they liked the guy so much. they loved hanging out with him, which i should note yet another difference
in the way a movie is made then a comic, and an important factor in determining how it comes out. this is a team of coworkers on a job site.
thats what it is. its important to have people who get along, and can work with each other and act off each other. otherwise the film will fall apart.
otherwise actors will leave before its up.
so theres the big lack of proof that any of this actually matters, nor makes a real difference. because it never really has.
aside from the point i already made, which well, no real reason given why thats wrong either.
cant really see one single problem with Heimdall being a brother, in fact i will bet you know
after the movie comes out, the larger gripes from some of the comic book readers will be entirely
different changes than this one. and hey, its just Heimdall. imagine the outrage if it were Thor.
but would that be wrong? No, but it wouldnt sell because society is still not open minded enough
nor advanced to remove themselves from the trivial.
Maybe someday...
It really only is a matter of perception, and that is a fact that cant be ruled out of the equation.
To me being bothered by this stuff is as bad as when a character that wasnt stated to be turns out to be LGBT.
bottom line is though, comic fans can complain about this until there blue in the face,
but films will never match long running comics because its actually impossible, so
theyre wasting theyre time doing so over it. complain if the movie is bad, or the acting sucks,
because thats actually something that could have been fixed.
its a business, and while its not one hundred percent about money, it is about money and has to be about
it first, because it takes money to make it in the first place, otherwise, it doesnt even exist. and you already know this,
and so do I, so why even sweat it?
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