The Sentry, Thor and Marvel.

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#51 Posted by Pyrogram (34311 posts) - - Show Bio

@stu: The core of the character has not and cannot change though, unless you do what they are doing with spiderman.

#52 Posted by Fifthchild (585 posts) - - Show Bio

@Malevolent1 said:

@PowerHerc: Well...he was intended to be by Stan Lee when Stan first introduced the character. But in terms of demonstrated powers and feats in continuity, the Silver Surfer is more powerful than Thor. Superman, by the same measuring stick would also be more powerful than Thor. The problem with Thor is that no one at Marvel really seemded to care for the character except Stan Lee and then Jim Shooter.

Hmmm. I've seen Shooter state that there were many at the company during his tenure who he felt were overly protective of Thor due to a childhood affection for the character. This was in the context of Shooter wanting to have Wonderman introduced as the more powerful of the two.

Thor was intended by Stan to be the be all end all of all superheroes and the one up to DC's Superman. After Stan left, Shooter valiantly upheld that torch, even in the face of DC suggesting a crossover that would end in Thor's defeat by Superman (to which Shooter, essentially said, "Hell no").

The reasons the crossover was scratched which have been gone into in great detail by Shooter had nothing to do with this. It was mostly because everyone at Marvel thought the story that DC commissioned was terrible. In fact apparently Thor and Superman were supposed to fight to a draw and while i've no idea what Shooter thought of that he did specifically note that he thought it was ridiculous that the DC story had Quicksilver and Flash racing evenly when in Shooter's opinion The Flash was much faster.

De Falco was the first editor in chief to indicate that Thor was NOT as strong as the Hulk, but still, overall, more powerful

Actually apparently that story (Thor 385) was bought from Erik Larsen by Shooter but only published after he had left the company.

(Marvel's contention before that was that in terms of raw, brute strength alone, Hulk had to be VERY angry to match Thor in strength...).

Not really. Marvel had never stated or shown anything like that in the comics. The only thing which did take that position were the Handbooks. IIRC these were initiated under Shooter's watch.

By the time Quesada took over, the reins had been given to Kurt Busiek (a well known LOVER of Superman...) for the JLA/Avengers crossover. We all know how that went down. And Thor has been on a downward spiral since. In my opinion, the only writer since to get Thor right, and point the character in his natural evolution (as Marvel's strongest/most powerful superhero...) was J Michael Stracynski. Fraction is a good writer, just not for Thor. He doesn't get the character.

Anyhow, that is where we are with the character now. In my opinion, the Surfer is now Marvel's most powerful superhero/herald.

I think the Hulk is naturally Marvels strongest character and, along with Thor, one of its most powerful. The Surfer has mostly been shown as Thor's peer or perhaps inferior (i'd perhaps edge Thor in their most recent encounter) but overall theres not a lot in it.

#53 Posted by Fifthchild (585 posts) - - Show Bio

@Pyrogram said:

@stu: He created him to be marvel superman.

@TheGodofThunder: I know, but the fact still remains what they were created for. To be the strongest hero on earth.

I've never seen Stan say anything about Superman playing a part in Thor's creation except that he wanted to give Thor a "logical reason" for being able to fly in contrast to Superman so he had Thor throw Mjolnir and then catch it and have it pull him along.

The idea that Stan created Thor to be the strongest superhero on Earth is also pretty dubious IMO. He was supposed to be someone who could go toe to toe with the Hulk but mostly whati get from what Stan has said is that the "God" angle was what was intended as making Thor stand out in the same way as being "the strongest" or "the smartest" did with Hulk and Mr Fantastic. At any rate its a bit hard to be precise with this as Stan played pretty fast and loose with terms like "the strongest".

#54 Posted by Malevolent1 (1072 posts) - - Show Bio

@Fifthchild: Very interesting. I appreciate your insight. Thank you. I read an article by DeFalco on this very subject some years ago. Naturally, I don't have a copy saved anywhere. I will see if I can find it for you.

#55 Posted by THORSON (2300 posts) - - Show Bio

THOR is marvel;s top powerhouse.

I don't see anyone over taking him, not even the sentry or surfer.

There is just too much people who don't understand THOR then they automatically underestimate him.

#56 Posted by phisigmatau (463 posts) - - Show Bio

ya man sentry sucks anyways

#57 Edited by Teh_pwnerer (113 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor is among the large list of Marvel's top powerhouses. That list also includes Hulk, Surfer, and Sentry. It's been long established that they are similar power levels.

@thorson said:

THOR is marvel;s top powerhouse.

I don't see anyone over taking him, not even the sentry or surfer.

There is just too much people who don't understand THOR then they automatically underestimate him.

#58 Posted by AsgardianXeno929 (835 posts) - - Show Bio

I think what separates Thor and such from those like Sentry when talking about Gods or High Powered Beings is the mystical aspect of it all. Sure others have magic and stuff, but you Don't see Sentry or Scarlet Witch getting revived or more power when people pray to them. Another example is when Thor senses people praying to him on distant planets and just shows up to help and stuff. And heck, who am I to tell marvel who is and isnt a god in their universe?

#59 Posted by Starbrander (140 posts) - - Show Bio

@thorson said:

THOR is marvel;s top powerhouse.

I don't see anyone over taking him, not even the sentry or surfer.

There is just too much people who don't understand THOR then they automatically underestimate him.

Thor is a big gun in the Marvel universe. One of the biggest. He's something humanity can draw upon to deal with the worst of the worst. Galactus, Thanos, Celestials...whatever.

When silliness like Sentry is added is totally undermines Marvel history, and shifts power levels so dramatically that it ruins other characters and stories that have been happening for decades. Sentry just doesn't make sense. His powers don't make sense, and source of his powers don't make sense.

Thor is a GOD!

#60 Posted by pooty (10736 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor nor Superman are the most powerful hero in their universe. Martian Manhunter, Flash, Photon, Sentry, Phoenix can beat them. But Thor and Superman both inspire, rise above their limitations. Thor and Supes make you think "all things are possible".

#61 Posted by ndm5 (474 posts) - - Show Bio

At the end of the day, when all hope is lost, it should be the Blue Boy Scout speeding in to save the day, or the Might God of Thunder smashing his way to victory.

#62 Posted by AsgardianXeno929 (835 posts) - - Show Bio
#63 Posted by pooty (10736 posts) - - Show Bio

@starbrander: Sentry just doesn't make sense. His powers don't make sense, and source of his powers don't make sense.

Gamma rays, The sun, laboratory accident,touching a ruby, a dragons heart. none of it makes sense. but i fully agree. getting your powers from a drink? a similar serum made Cap America peak human. another serum gave Sentry the power of a billion billion suns?? C'mon Marvel? lol

@ndm5 said:

At the end of the day, when all hope is lost, it should be the Blue Boy Scout speeding in to save the day, or the Might God of Thunder smashing his way to victory.

Agreed. Cap America is usually the inspiring leader. But in Fear Itself when Thor almost died and Cap went to Odin. Cap was like "I got all these people at my side, but i CAN'T do this without Thor !!! and for all the power Martian Manhunter has or Cap marvel, at the end of the day....when hell is upon us.........give me Blue Boy Scout

#64 Posted by green_skaar (4415 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty said:

@starbrander: Sentry just doesn't make sense. His powers don't make sense, and source of his powers don't make sense.

Gamma rays, The sun, laboratory accident,touching a ruby, a dragons heart. none of it makes sense. but i fully agree. getting your powers from a drink? a similar serum made Cap America peak human. another serum gave Sentry the power of a billion billion suns?? C'mon Marvel? lol

It's comics, origin stories don't always make sense. Stretchy scientist has son with invisible lady and out pops Celestial/Abstract level baby! lol

#65 Edited by Starbrander (140 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty said:

@starbrander: Sentry just doesn't make sense. His powers don't make sense, and source of his powers don't make sense.

Gamma rays, The sun, laboratory accident,touching a ruby, a dragons heart. none of it makes sense. but i fully agree. getting your powers from a drink? a similar serum made Cap America peak human. another serum gave Sentry the power of a billion billion suns?? C'mon Marvel? lol

It's comics, origin stories don't always make sense. Stretchy scientist has son with invisible lady and out pops Celestial/Abstract level baby! lol

I think everyone here is aware that "it's comics", but even in comics there is a level of ridiculousness that goes beyond high adventure to completely idiotic, and insulting the reader's intelligence and hobby.

Franklin Richards is a good example. Always hated the notion, and regarded it was just lazy writing and sorta stupid. Add to that list just about everything related to Sentry, and the ridiculousness associated with Scarlett Witch's powers in recent years.

#66 Posted by pooty (10736 posts) - - Show Bio

@starbrander: It's not ridiculous considering human evolution. Due to Celestial experiments, humans are supposed to evolve into the most powerful beings in the universe. Surpassing gods and the Celestials themselves. That is why you have Hyperstorm, Mad Jim Jaspers, molecule man etc. Humans are destined to become most powerful race in universe.

#67 Posted by Starbrander (140 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty said:

@starbrander: It's not ridiculous considering human evolution. Due to Celestial experiments, humans are supposed to evolve into the most powerful beings in the universe. Surpassing gods and the Celestials themselves. That is why you have Hyperstorm, Mad Jim Jaspers, molecule man etc. Humans are destined to become most powerful race in universe.

The most trite level of writing will always end with the sudden creation of a Galactus class character.

Galactus is from a previous universe, survived the big bang, gestates for BILLIONS of years, and even then is quite weak until he eats a whole planet.

Knowing that we are supposed to fall the idea that a couple of mutants mating creates Galactus class characters, or drinking the Super Soldier serum (Sentry) can create a being that Galactus would even notice.

The Beyonder in Secret Wars made sense because he was basically the Eternity of another universe (Then ignorantly reduced to a cosmic cube fraction).

Since the Infinity Gauntlet Marvel has gone nuts with cosmic level characters, which is lame, and would also have ended with the annihilation of earth ten times over at this point.

#68 Posted by pooty (10736 posts) - - Show Bio

@starbrander: I agree that super powers have gotten to ridiculous levels. The only solution I see is doing a reboot like DC did. Re-do everyone's origin and power levels. It has gotten out of hand

#69 Posted by Starbrander (140 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty said:

@starbrander: I agree that super powers have gotten to ridiculous levels. The only solution I see is doing a reboot like DC did. Re-do everyone's origin and power levels. It has gotten out of hand

And tell future writers that making any new cosmic class characters will result in tar and feathering.

Even Galactus, for a being above noticing humanoids, and eats whole planets, he is way too embroiled in earth affairs and popping up way too often as a plot device.

#70 Posted by Thitiki (3122 posts) - - Show Bio

People argue Sentry is already above Thor. I disagree overall Thor is far more powerful.

#71 Edited by green_skaar (4415 posts) - - Show Bio

@thitiki said:

People argue Sentry is already above Thor. I disagree overall Thor is far more powerful.

That's debatable, however Sentry certainly has Thor's number.

#72 Posted by Thitiki (3122 posts) - - Show Bio

@thitiki said:

People argue Sentry is already above Thor. I disagree overall Thor is far more powerful.

That's debatable, however Sentry certainly has Thor's number.

Agreed. by number you mean he is certainly passing up Thor or??

#73 Edited by green_skaar (4415 posts) - - Show Bio

@thitiki said:

@green_skaar said:

@thitiki said:

People argue Sentry is already above Thor. I disagree overall Thor is far more powerful.

That's debatable, however Sentry certainly has Thor's number.

Agreed. by number you mean he is certainly passing up Thor or??

His number, as he knows how and is capable of beating him.

#74 Posted by Thitiki (3122 posts) - - Show Bio

@green_skaar: Oh I see! NOOOO NOOO NOOO Thor would never loose to Sentry never ever..

#75 Posted by Fifthchild (585 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor is among the large list of Marvel's top powerhouses. That list also includes Hulk, Surfer, and Sentry. It's been long established that they are similar power levels.

This. Sentry now has a pretty consistent history of being above the standard top tier however. Which is fine considering he isnt a protagonist and usually plays the role of a villain if anything.

And yes - Humanity/The Earth etc are cosmically significant and contain unusual/unrivalled potential. Thats been established many, many times in the MU in many different stories.

#76 Posted by HaveAtThee (492 posts) - - Show Bio

Technically, Sentry isn't even alive it's just the Death Seed has possessed his corpse (which somehow survived being disintegrated by a sun bath). Sentry was around for about eight years. Thor, Hulk and Silver Surfer have been around for five decades. Are we sure that Sentry will last beyond this apparent "resurrection" by Remender after this giant "Ragnarok Now!" arc? Same goes for Hyperion. He may be around now as Hickman is trying to establish him within his story, but for how long? In the last 40 years or so, the debate has raged "Hulk or Thor" or "Thor or Surfer." Will the continuous readership be raising those same questions ten years from now? In a standalone story, yes, Sentry and Hyperion are definitely on par with the likes of Thor, Hulk and Surfer (maybe Blue Marvel too). But I'd like to see them established as mainstay characters before I personally consider them in that class.

#77 Edited by Starbrander (140 posts) - - Show Bio

@haveatthee said:

Technically, Sentry isn't even alive it's just the Death Seed has possessed his corpse (which somehow survived being disintegrated by a sun bath). Sentry was around for about eight years. Thor, Hulk and Silver Surfer have been around for five decades. Are we sure that Sentry will last beyond this apparent "resurrection" by Remender after this giant "Ragnarok Now!" arc? Same goes for Hyperion. He may be around now as Hickman is trying to establish him within his story, but for how long? In the last 40 years or so, the debate has raged "Hulk or Thor" or "Thor or Surfer." Will the continuous readership be raising those same questions ten years from now? In a standalone story, yes, Sentry and Hyperion are definitely on par with the likes of Thor, Hulk and Surfer (maybe Blue Marvel too). But I'd like to see them established as mainstay characters before I personally consider them in that class.

And give him a decent origin. This whole serum turns man into godkiller is incredibly lame.

Make him a version of Kenneth Connell (he looks like Connell and has all the powers of the Brand), or a sentient fragment of the Infinity Thrall, or some type of Dire Wraith/Galadorian hybrid created to deal with Galactus since he moved their entire planet. Anything is better than this serum silliness.

#78 Posted by THORSON (2300 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty said:

Thor nor Superman are the most powerful hero in their universe. Martian Manhunter, Flash, Photon, Sentry, Phoenix can beat them. But Thor and Superman both inspire, rise above their limitations. Thor and Supes make you think "all things are possible".

disagree to agree.

#79 Posted by Experio (13350 posts) - - Show Bio

All we have seen is Void Sentry vs Thor and Death Seed Sentry vs Thor. A fair battle is yet two be shown.

#80 Posted by ThanoStomp (779 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't have a problem with Thor getting his butt kicked by DS Sentry, or any other character on Thor's level, or with a serious amp. If a character won all the time, he'd be boring. I do have a problem with the way the various writers at Marvel have treated Thor. I agree with @Malevolent1 (although his post was over a year ago!) that MJS did Thor best as of late. Aaron did okay. The rest of the writers don't get him, or are just lazy when they use him..... especially when writing him in as part of team like the Avengers.

I think what Thor fans get upset about and "complain" about is when he jobs, which seems to be often. Thor even flinching from blows from non, top-tier characters is sort of a joke.

#81 Posted by SkyRobo1 (253 posts) - - Show Bio

Stan did say he created Thor to match Superman but I don't think that gives Thor the title of "Most powerful character in Marvel" since powerful is a vague term - however he is one of the strongest character in Marvel that I will agree..

#82 Edited by ThorLeedyson (14 posts) - - Show Bio

When your arguing over who is more powerful, 90% of the argument is going to be opinion. With that said I believe Thor is a both a great character and the most powerful hero Marvel have to offer. When i say hero I'm not referring to Galactus, or Odin, or Death, or Eternity. Because I think we can all agree they are in a class of their own. Mjolnir doesn't give Thor his strength, it is however one of the most powerful weapons in the universe. To say Thor is nothing without it is foolish. It would be like saying the silver surfer is nothing without his board, which, contrary to what Hollywood interpretations would have you believe, is not true. As for Sentry, I liked him flaws and all. I thought it was interesting Marvel was making a character with such mental instability so important. And his battle and ultimate demise at the hands of Thor was one of my favorite fights in comics. Did the writers get a little overzealous and inconsistent with his powers? Yes. But writers sometimes seem to get a little overzealous and or inconsistent with superman's powers as well, yet he is one of the most beloved heroes of all time.

#83 Posted by Whowatchesthewatchmen (81 posts) - - Show Bio

I never thought about it this way, and I don't know that I agree.

Still, Thor was created to be Marvel's over-all most powerful superhero character and always should be.

Not Phoenix. Not Silver Surfer. Not Dr. Strange. Not Sentry. Not anybody.

DC's ultimate big gun is Superman and Marvel's is Thor.

exactly

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