The Sentry, Thor and Marvel.

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#1 Posted by Rasarima (371 posts) - - Show Bio

The Sentry, Thor and Marvel.

Let´s make him a Alien!
The yellow superman

I will not deny that I am among those who swell the ranks of the Sentry haters, but I think I never spent enough time to identify the reason for this.

It is true that the origin of the Sentry is not convincing, is simply one serum cannot do what he did with it, and it is equally true that he could not have the range of powers it has, including telepathy.

About all these facts is the one who shouts "I am a copy of Superman," he has an S at the waist by the love of God.

They need to say "He is better than Thor"

But that is no reason to hate a character, many characters today have come from good copies and has a menu of powers that do not make much sense.But considering all this, I yet have not seen the problem until I saw the movie Thor.

Even the hammer cannot be copyrighted

After seeing the movie, I realized the existence of the Sentry, Merchandizign, simple and cheap.

The truth is that Marvel can not register, as anyone cant, the name Thor, their histories, their past or their companies because they can not take a story that has thousands of years.

Thor is Older than Marvel

Thus, they can not, in any way, use Thor as DC's uses Superman, uniquely, and therefore the need to replace the Thor for something new, feasible and equally powerful.

What marvel did not realize is that Thor can be a problem related to the creation of items such as lunchboxes, t-shirts and other paraphernalia, but it can serve to leverage these products with other characters. I hope that Marvel stop trying overwritten Thor on screen and in comics and he returns to the big name in the Avengers.

He may not be unique Marvel´s but, seriously? He is the big name in Marvel, He is the one and only equivalent of superman and will ever be.

#2 Posted by PowerHerc (82862 posts) - - Show Bio

I never thought about it this way, and I don't know that I agree.

Still, Thor was created to be Marvel's over-all most powerful superhero character and always should be.

Not Phoenix. Not Silver Surfer. Not Dr. Strange. Not Sentry. Not anybody.

DC's ultimate big gun is Superman and Marvel's is Thor.

#3 Posted by stu (379 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerHerc: i could not disagree more.There is no reason at all for thor to be the most powerful character.He is just an alien.Hes as much a god as Gladiator or any kree.Why should thor be the over-all most powerful?! There is soooo many greater things then gods in the universe.Being such as Galactus ,death,SS Genis-Vell(wich is probably the closest thing to a god).Its not because mankind believe gods to be all mighty that they are. Also without the hammer thor is nothing. on the other hand A so call god such as Hercules does not need anything to be powerful.But than again the fact that hercules existe( wich is the greek religion) and thor (Proto-Indo-European religion) proves that they are not actual gods.But self proclaim god. So why should he be the Marvel over-all power superhero.?

#4 Posted by aerokinesis (529 posts) - - Show Bio

@stu said:

@PowerHerc: i could not disagree more.There is no reason at all for thor to be the most powerful character.He is just an alien.Hes as much a god as Gladiator or any kree.Why should thor be the over-all most powerful?! There is soooo many greater things then gods in the universe.Being such as Galactus ,death,SS Genis-Vell(wich is probably the closest thing to a god).Its not because mankind believe gods to be all mighty that they are. Also without the hammer thor is nothing. on the other hand A so call god such as Hercules does not need anything to be powerful.But than again the fact that hercules existe( wich is the greek religion) and thor (Proto-Indo-European religion) proves that they are not actual gods.But self proclaim god. So why should he be the Marvel over-all power superhero.?

#5 Posted by TheGoldenOne (38849 posts) - - Show Bio
@stu said:

@PowerHerc: i could not disagree more.There is no reason at all for thor to be the most powerful character.He is just an alien.Hes as much a god as Gladiator or any kree.Why should thor be the over-all most powerful?! There is soooo many greater things then gods in the universe.Being such as Galactus ,death,SS Genis-Vell(wich is probably the closest thing to a god).Its not because mankind believe gods to be all mighty that they are. Also without the hammer thor is nothing. on the other hand A so call god such as Hercules does not need anything to be powerful.But than again the fact that hercules existe( wich is the greek religion) and thor (Proto-Indo-European religion) proves that they are not actual gods.But self proclaim god. So why should he be the Marvel over-all power superhero.?

False.
#6 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (32993 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor fans ruin the character for me

#7 Posted by Kallarkz (3303 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor would lose s e great abilities without the hammer...but he would still be one o the most powerful beings without it.

#8 Posted by gravitypress (2069 posts) - - Show Bio

@stu: Thor and the other Deities aren't just aliens they are gods. Earth has multiple sky-fathers associated with it from many mythos. The skyfathers made a pact to not interfere in the happenings of earth. On top of this the gods were created by Gaea who is the earth. So to say that they are just aliens doesn't really fly when like Thor your mother is the embodiment of the Earth. But this isn't really singling Thor out as ALL the gods have a Gaea connection in the family. As to why he is the most powerful hero in Marvel is because Marvel says so. Sentry was an interesting test but his main problem is that his creator (Bendis) destroyed him by writing him into absurdity.

#9 Posted by PowerHerc (82862 posts) - - Show Bio

@stu said:

@PowerHerc: i could not disagree more.There is no reason at all for thor to be the most powerful character.He is just an alien.Hes as much a god as Gladiator or any kree.Why should thor be the over-all most powerful?! There is soooo many greater things then gods in the universe.Being such as Galactus ,death,SS Genis-Vell(wich is probably the closest thing to a god).Its not because mankind believe gods to be all mighty that they are. Also without the hammer thor is nothing. on the other hand A so call god such as Hercules does not need anything to be powerful.But than again the fact that hercules existe( wich is the greek religion) and thor (Proto-Indo-European religion) proves that they are not actual gods.But self proclaim god. So why should he be the Marvel over-all power superhero.?

Because (god, alien or whatever) he has more history, is more unique and is much cooler than any of Marvel's other all-around, all-powerful heroes (which excludes cosmics like Galactus and abastracts like Death). This includes Gladiator, Genis-clone and Silver Surfer. I'm completely disregarding whatever the religious origins and implications of Thor as a god. I'm willing to say he's (and the other gods as well) is simply a very high level super-being, same as all the other characters you mentioned (they're not gods, either). I'd just put his over-all level above all the other Marvel heroes.

You say it can't/shouldn't be Thor who is the most powerful superhero. You name others in your post. Why Surfer? Why Genis-Vell?

#10 Posted by stu (379 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerHerc: surfer and genis are the first name that poped in my head to give an exemple of being that are in everyway superior...

#11 Posted by PowerHerc (82862 posts) - - Show Bio

@stu: Superior to Thor? That is your opinion, which is purely subjective and no more valid than mine.

I say Thor is superior to any of them.

#12 Posted by higher_evolutionary (2015 posts) - - Show Bio
@PowerHerc
pheonix = cosmic entity that can trump galactus
how on earth is thor > pheonix?
#13 Posted by vidarrodinson (137 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with you PowerHerc. Thor should be Numero Uno. The Sentry had potential. However, He should not be in Thor's class.

#14 Posted by PowerHerc (82862 posts) - - Show Bio

@higher_evolutionary: The Phoenix-Force is a power on par with Galactus. And as such is a power greater than Thor. It's my opinion that no Marvel superhero should be more powerful than Thor. To me, that includes whatever person possesses the Phoenix-Force. It could (and should) be like it was for Jean before the Dark Phoenix story arc; back then she couldn't access the full power of the Phoenix-Force.

@vidarrodinson: That's right.

#15 Edited by Postacrat (496 posts) - - Show Bio

I've been reading Marvel comics for years and I never viewed Thor as Marvel's Superman. They are just to different from their origins to their abilities. Just because a person can fly, is invulnerable and has superhuman strength does not make them Superman, especially when it is just their basic power set and Thor can do way more than just that. In fact about 20 years ago or more if you thought DC or even grabbed a book, seeing Superman was almost automatic. To the point when you think DC you think Superman, however when I started reading marvel, the first thing I thought was X-men,Wolverine, Weapon X, Spiderman Captain America but not Thor..He's just not portrayed in the same light nor is he promoted as a public and national figure in the same way. I personally feel compared to actual god's, Thor's powers are limited, the word God is a term that is too loosely used in comics these days. The way comic's depict some of these gods, make them no different from Superman, or Sentry, in fact anybody with feats similar to them could be a god based on Comic standards. In my personal opinion the only actual gods in my eyes in Marvel are Odin or Zues maybe Hela and sometimes Loki, Herules, Ares, Thor as well as some Asgardians are more like Demi-Gods than actual God's to me...Also Sentry is Plain to see more powerful than thor, and I viewed him as more of a Marvel Superman than Thor..

#16 Posted by stu (379 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerHerc: come on...whatever your opinion is on SS and is power,it doesnt change the fact that he is a being beyond man or god.But you can think what you like. But on the other hand,Genis is basically at death or oblivion level.(iam talking about insane genis).I mean he as reset the universe.And i believe he as a converstion with thor about if yes or no ,asgardian really are gods.And for what i remember genis had some solid argument, even proof.(i have those issue...maybe i can find them...)

#17 Edited by PowerHerc (82862 posts) - - Show Bio

@stu: SS is beyond man and many gods, in general, but that doesn't automatically put him beyond Thor. You, too, can think what you like, though.

The whole Genis thing went way off the tracks to the point where the character wasn't even really a hero anymore and therefore is excluded from being considered Marvel's most powerful superhero, imo.

#18 Posted by SC (12918 posts) - - Show Bio

Well I know the guy who created Thor and Silver Surfer considers Thor the more powerful character, then again, anonymous random people on the internet with really strong opinions that I am sure aren't biased or formed based on their personal subjective reasoning and understanding of the stories, characters and writers intent with characters might have even more weight and so I might just be prone to taking them more seriously....  
 
Cool thread/OP by the way, I'm actually a huge Sentry fan, he's a deconstruction, and so supposed to share similarities with Superman, and I don't really consider it a compliment or lack of for Thor to not be considered Marvel's Superman, but hey. Plus Marvel can register many things about Thor and thus use him uniquely and there are probably more non DC Superman running about and exploiting Superman anyway. So there's that, and again the fact that Sentry's creation was independent of Thor and well I could go on. 

Moderator
#19 Posted by PowerHerc (82862 posts) - - Show Bio

@SC said:

Well I know the guy who created Thor and Silver Surfer considers Thor the more powerful character, then again, anonymous random people on the internet with really strong opinions that I am sure aren't biased or formed based on their personal subjective reasoning and understanding of the stories, characters and writers intent with characters might have even more weight and so I might just be prone to taking them more seriously.... Cool thread/OP by the way, I'm actually a huge Sentry fan, he's a deconstruction, and so supposed to share similarities with Superman, and I don't really consider it a compliment or lack of for Thor to not be considered Marvel's Superman, but hey. Plus Marvel can register many things about Thor and thus use him uniquely and there are probably more non DC Superman running about and exploiting Superman anyway. So there's that, and again the fact that Sentry's creation was independent of Thor and well I could go on.

Good points, all !

(As usual).

#20 Posted by Mr. Dead Pool (2625 posts) - - Show Bio

@SC said:

Well I know the guy who created Thor and Silver Surfer considers Thor the more powerful character, then again, anonymous random people on the internet with really strong opinions that I am sure aren't biased or formed based on their personal subjective reasoning and understanding of the stories, characters and writers intent with characters might have even more weight and so I might just be prone to taking them more seriously.... Cool thread/OP by the way, I'm actually a huge Sentry fan, he's a deconstruction, and so supposed to share similarities with Superman, and I don't really consider it a compliment or lack of for Thor to not be considered Marvel's Superman, but hey. Plus Marvel can register many things about Thor and thus use him uniquely and there are probably more non DC Superman running about and exploiting Superman anyway. So there's that, and again the fact that Sentry's creation was independent of Thor and well I could go on.

I used to be a Sentry fan. I found his first appearance in Marvel Knights to be extremely well done, despite the hoax that surrounded him, and felt that he had a lot of potential as a character. I loved the idea of having a character that was basically Superman, but with the completely rational fear of accidentally killing people with his powers. But I eventually began to hate how Marvel was treating the character to the point I disliked him completely. I think the Sentry would have worked better in a separate universe, like Squadron Supreme, in that his character would have had much more of an impact on the story if he was the only superhero in it

#21 Posted by Powerzone789 (430 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerHerc said:

I never thought about it this way, and I don't know that I agree.

Still, Thor was created to be Marvel's over-all most powerful superhero character and always should be.

Not Phoenix. Not Silver Surfer. Not Dr. Strange. Not Sentry. Not anybody.

DC's ultimate big gun is Superman and Marvel's is Thor.

this

#22 Posted by Walker696 (984 posts) - - Show Bio

I can't quote US Agent exactly but he mentioned something are the so called gods really gods or are they just high powered beings. I mean when you look at these so called gods and compare them to some heroes its hard to see the God in them(Hulk punches his way through Olympus, Sentry killing Ares, Gorgan killing Phobas). For all we know the so called gods could just be high powered beings who claim there are gods because they want to be worshipped. Think about how many beings out there that can go toe to toe with so called gods (Hulk, Gladiator, Silver Surfer, Thanos, Magus.......this isn't counting beings like Galactus, the Celestials, or TOAA). Now that that's out the way.

When you want to look at humans who are powerful then honestly you have to give it to Hulk, but when you look at aliens Thor does come the closest to being Superman when you look at his following, his powers, and how others see him. There are others who fit big S more but its the history Thor carries that puts him on that level. I mean Sentry, Hyperion, Blue Marvel, Gladiator, and Virtue all fit the Superman mold but honestly when you think of somebody from marvel to compare, battle, or even trade universe with Supes you can't help but think of Thor 9 times out of 10. Honestly I always saw Thor as more of an alien that uses magic, technology, and his biology together to be an extremely powerful hero.

#23 Posted by Malevolent1 (1072 posts) - - Show Bio

It's funny. In my opinion, Thor (the mythological character) was utilized as a Marvel superhero in answer to Superman. Stan had a number of very different characters with fantastic powers. The Fantastic Four was Marvel's first big hit. Not long after their creation, it was clear to Marvel that the Thing was the FF's most popular character. So they expounded on the idea of a being with superhuman strength. Hence the Hulk. When Stan created Thor, he wanted someone, and I quote from Origins of Marvel Comics: "Who could be smarter than Mr Fantastic? Who could be stronger than the Hulk?". He goes on to say that they had created characters that were over the top and that he had painted himself into a corner. He clearly wanted to come up with a character that could outdo everyone he had already created. But he said he kept coming up with the same crazy notion, the only way to outdo the characters already created was with "Super God". Later it occurred to him that he could not and would not do a comic featuring God as the hero, but he could do a feature based on a mythological god.

Hence Thor. Stan had said for some time up to that point, that he always wanted "a cape" in the Marvel fold. So he created the God of Thunder.

However, while Thor was created in answer to Superman, I always thought that Gladiator was Marvel's clever Superman rip-off. I mean, c'mon, "Kal-lark?" Heat ray vision, freeezing breath, invulnerability, etc...Gladiator is Marvel's Superman.

The Sentry, to me, was Marvel's version of, "What if there was a guy like Superman that went crazy?" Hence the Sentry. I think the Sentry was hated because many felt he was just a Superman rip-off. Others simply did not understand his powers.

But yes, agreed. Thor was Marvel's version of Superman (originally), while Gladiator is the true rip-off (created during the John Byrne era I believer?).

#24 Posted by majestic99 (8637 posts) - - Show Bio

@vidarrodinson said:

I agree with you PowerHerc. Thor should be Numero Uno. The Sentry had potential. However, He should not be in Thor's class.

This.

Superman=DC's Icon

Thor=Marvel's Icon.

With his hammer, the only thing Superman should do in a fight with Thor is super speed the hell away.

#25 Posted by Rasarima (371 posts) - - Show Bio

That is the point, Marvel cant have him exclusively like DC has superman...so they change him for the movie and at the same time keep trying to replace him for a complete original one....a sad move for us, lucrative move for them

#26 Posted by majestic99 (8637 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rasarima said:

That is the point, Marvel cant have him exclusively like DC has superman...so they change him for the movie and at the same time keep trying to replace him for a complete original one....a sad move for us, lucrative move for them

#27 Posted by Malevolent1 (1072 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerHerc: Well...he was intended to be by Stan Lee when Stan first introduced the character. But in terms of demonstrated powers and feats in continuity, the Silver Surfer is more powerful than Thor. Superman, by the same measuring stick would also be more powerful than Thor. The problem with Thor is that no one at Marvel really seemded to care for the character except Stan Lee and then Jim Shooter. Thor was intended by Stan to be the be all end all of all superheroes and the one up to DC's Superman. After Stan left, Shooter valiantly upheld that torch, even in the face of DC suggesting a crossover that would end in Thor's defeat by Superman (to which Shooter, essentially said, "Hell no"). De Falco was the first editor in chief to indicate that Thor was NOT as strong as the Hulk, but still, overall, more powerful (Marvel's contention before that was that in terms of raw, brute strength alone, Hulk had to be VERY angry to match Thor in strength...). By the time Quesada took over, the reins had been given to Kurt Busiek (a well known LOVER of Superman...) for the JLA/Avengers crossover. We all know how that went down. And Thor has been on a downward spiral since. In my opinion, the only writer since to get Thor right, and point the character in his natural evolution (as Marvel's strongest/most powerful superhero...) was J Michael Stracynski. Fraction is a good writer, just not for Thor. He doesn't get the character.

Anyhow, that is where we are with the character now. In my opinion, the Surfer is now Marvel's most powerful superhero/herald.

#28 Posted by PowerHerc (82862 posts) - - Show Bio

@Malevolent1: You make good points and you state them well.

#29 Posted by Malevolent1 (1072 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerHerc said:

@Malevolent1: You make good points and you state them well.

Thank you. Obviously, I"m not always right, but that is my best interpretation of why Thor is where he is at today.

#30 Posted by Z3RO180 (6433 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerHerc: you know what i agree.

Marvel Big gun superhero - thor

DC Big gun hero - Superman

#31 Posted by PowerHerc (82862 posts) - - Show Bio

@Z3RO180 said:

@PowerHerc: you know what i agree.

Marvel Big gun superhero - thor

DC Big gun hero - Superman

Yes, exactly.

#32 Edited by weaponx (1566 posts) - - Show Bio

The OP has a good point, but I never thought of it that way and it really doesn't change my opinions of the mentioned characters. I really like Sentry. I don't agree with everything that was done with him (air craft carriers...), but I really liked him. I love Thor and he will always be at my top because of his history and overall character. I don't spend too much time thinking about who should be stronger/who is stronger etc, but Thor is Marvel's anchor imo. I just see Thor enter the stage and I get super excited and anticipate some epicness. When Silver Surfer enters the stage, I think the same thing, and that is what keeps me coming back.

#33 Posted by THORSON (2351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rasarima said:

The Sentry, Thor and Marvel.

Let´s make him a Alien!
The yellow superman

I will not deny that I am among those who swell the ranks of the Sentry haters, but I think I never spent enough time to identify the reason for this.

It is true that the origin of the Sentry is not convincing, is simply one serum cannot do what he did with it, and it is equally true that he could not have the range of powers it has, including telepathy.

About all these facts is the one who shouts "I am a copy of Superman," he has an S at the waist by the love of God.

They need to say "He is better than Thor"

But that is no reason to hate a character, many characters today have come from good copies and has a menu of powers that do not make much sense.But considering all this, I yet have not seen the problem until I saw the movie Thor.

Even the hammer cannot be copyrighted

After seeing the movie, I realized the existence of the Sentry, Merchandizign, simple and cheap.

The truth is that Marvel can not register, as anyone cant, the name Thor, their histories, their past or their companies because they can not take a story that has thousands of years.

Thor is Older than Marvel

Thus, they can not, in any way, use Thor as DC's uses Superman, uniquely, and therefore the need to replace the Thor for something new, feasible and equally powerful.

What marvel did not realize is that Thor can be a problem related to the creation of items such as lunchboxes, t-shirts and other paraphernalia, but it can serve to leverage these products with other characters. I hope that Marvel stop trying overwritten Thor on screen and in comics and he returns to the big name in the Avengers.

He may not be unique Marvel´s but, seriously? He is the big name in Marvel, He is the one and only equivalent of superman and will ever be.

BULL

#34 Posted by gou10t (19 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor's has the power of Asgard, Surfer draws unlimited power of the cosmos, so does Hulk in the same amount as seriously effective working force against him, and so does Sentry.

#35 Posted by spiderpool94 (467 posts) - - Show Bio

Marvel doesn't have one big gun. Which is why I prefer it to DC

#36 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor

#37 Posted by Epicbeast3000 (956 posts) - - Show Bio
@PowerHerc  I hate to say this, but silver surfer is just slightly more powerful than thor. Though he fights stupid but if he were blood lusted i think he would beat thor in a fair fight, but since he fights so stupid, thor always will win. But in question of raw power, silver surfer has that over thor. I hate the big G for making surfer more powerful than the god of thunder. So that makes thor the 2nd most powerful marval superheroe.
#38 Posted by PowerHerc (82862 posts) - - Show Bio

@Epicbeast3000:

Opinions vary and we do disagree. I still say Thor is more powerful than the Silver Surfer.

Merry Christmas to you!

#39 Posted by Z3RO180 (6433 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerHerc: and a merry christmas to you too good sir :D

#40 Posted by PowerHerc (82862 posts) - - Show Bio

@Z3RO180: Thanks!

#41 Posted by Pyrogram (36304 posts) - - Show Bio

@stu: False. Stan lee SAID Thor was created to be the best,

#42 Posted by 80sBaby (1343 posts) - - Show Bio

The OP is incorrect. Marvel's Thor IS a Registered/trademarked property of Marvel comics. So the creation of Sentry had nothing to do with that.

#43 Posted by Pyrogram (36304 posts) - - Show Bio

@80sBaby: Good point.

#44 Posted by HaveAtThee (516 posts) - - Show Bio

It's debatable if the Surfer is more or less powerful than Thor. In terms of overall powerset I find them to be relative equals. In modern-day comics, it all depends on who is at the helm of these characters.

As for Thor's history, as others have stated, Stan Lee intended for Thor to be Marvel's equivalence to Superman in terms of overall powerset. Classic Thor, up until the Disassembled stuff had incredible feats even without the use of Mjolnir. He used to go toe-to-toe with Hulk, Surfer, Hercules and even celestials and villains more powerful than he (such as Thanos). Even Stan himself somewhere said that he always intended for Thor to be the most powerful but writers after him designated Hulk as the slightly stronger of the two just in brute strength. It's why Hulk was always afraid of Thor every time he had Mjolnir in his hand and goaded him into putting it down. Even a dumb brute like Hulk knew that Thor focusing all of his godly powers is too dangerous.

Ever since his return in 2007, only JMS and now Jason Aaron have come close to recapturing the classical elements of Thor in print. No other writer "gets" how to write him properly. A major problem is that lack of any real continuity with their characters. Editorial lets the writers take liberty with the titles they are writing for the "sake of their story." I always feel a good writer can craft a good story without ignoring any previous precedent set by other writers. Jason Aaron is the perfect example of this. Yes, he's given Thor a rather gruesome, dark element with the "God-Butcher" storyline, but he's also harkened back to the mythological and universe-spanning tales that Thor regularly participated in. I see elements of Kirby, Simonson and Jurgens present in Aaron's current arc and it's helped contribute to the mostly positive reaction "God of Thunder" has garnered. Aaron "gets" Thor.

#45 Posted by stu (379 posts) - - Show Bio

@Pyrogram: it doesnt matter what stan lee said. also...seens when stan lee`s word is law?!

#46 Posted by Pyrogram (36304 posts) - - Show Bio

@stu: No, he just you know.., invented all the major characters.

#47 Posted by stu (379 posts) - - Show Bio

@Pyrogram: yea,but that doesnt change the fact that anybody (marvel peeps i mean) can basically write whatever they want with the character.

#48 Posted by TheGodofThunder (597 posts) - - Show Bio

@Pyrogram: He, Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko invented all the characters, lol.

#49 Posted by Pyrogram (36304 posts) - - Show Bio

@stu: He created him to be marvel superman.

@TheGodofThunder: I know, but the fact still remains what they were created for. To be the strongest hero on earth.

#50 Posted by stu (379 posts) - - Show Bio

@Pyrogram: sure.But thats a long time ago. The purpos of most character as change seens...

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