First off take a look at this link: http://marvel.wikia.com/Thor_(Thor_Odinson) scroll down to Thor's powers and take a look. Now it says that Thor has "easily" overpowered Hulk, Red Hulk, Gladiator,and Hercules. But I think it's garbage, now I haven't read any of Thor's solo comics in recent years but I did love Classic Thor, and I read Avenger comics where Thor is a member. If I remember correctly, Hulk has overpowered Thor about 4 times, while Thor has only done it once and it was King Thor not regular Thor so I don't know if it even counts. And if I remember correctly, Red Hulk also beat Thor, I've never heard of Thor beating Gladiator...Ive seen them stalemate a few times but I've never seen him win. And also Hercules stalemates Thor most of the time and once Herc even had him in a submission hold and Thor couldn't win without using lightning. And people say "Thor holds back against mortals" but he only holds back against people who can't take his hits, like if he didn't hold back against Cap or IM he'd kill them. But I also have a vague memory of Thor saying he doesent hold back against people who have similar durability as himself so he doesent holdback against those who can take his punches like Hulk, Hercules, etc. probably one of the dumbest things this wiki says is that Thor is "far" physically stronger than Hulk. That has NEVER been proven, they have proven that they are equals but Hulk has overpowered him before when he gets angrier. The most infuriating thing is that it says that Thor's strength is "infinite" and "unlimited", this all started when myself and another were debating Superman vs Thor and I supported Superman and then he said that Thor's strength is unlimited and than referred to the wiki. As said before, I haven't read Thor's solo comics in a while, so did he suddenly get a MEGA power boost or is this wiki just flat-out wrong?

Btw I'm not hating on Thor, he's one of my personal favorites but I think this wiki takes his powers to a level he's NEVER reached.

That's not official, it's a user edited database, just like here.

If anything, this would be his official wiki, and it is still user edited as well, although probably with more scrutiny on the edits.

I dont think you are going to find much in the way of an official anything in terms of powerlevels. The Handbooks are the closest thing to being truly official and even they frequently contradict continuity or make things up to try and fill in the gaps. Hence stuff like Hulk drawing upon some unknown dimension to gain added mass/strength (possible but never really stated in the books), Sentrys powers being dependent on stability etc.

As for the wikis here they are mostly edited by somewhat overzealous fans and I'm not necessarily singling Thor out here. Take everything you read with some very large grains of salt.

Well, I can't really address everything you said, so I'll just address a few points, but feel free to ask questions. Thor's strength officially is incalculable. Its the highest rank Marvel gives officially, and so it potentially could be unlimited and when I say potentially, I mean he is officially in the category thats got characters that lift over 100 tons and over to whatever is the biggest number you can think of. Now he is a fictional character and so naturally as many fictional characters attributes, there will be inconsistency, but unlike a character like say Daredevil? His strength isn't really supposed to be given a hard number. Its supposed to be ambiguous and vague, since Thor is one of those characters, that given a particular context can dig in and perform any sort of strength feat. He's not the only character like that, most of the characters in that strength category are that way. (Hulk, Juggernaut, Gladiator, Blue Marvel, uh Galactus... Living Tribunal and Death and every abstract being. Heh heh)

Naturally this doesn't mean that Thor has no strength limits, more that they'll naturally fluctuate depending on the writer, editor, story and so on. Even a bit of reader interpretation. Superman mind you for intents and purposes has the same time of strength Thor does, strength dependent on the plot, writer, fan base etc

Its also a tricky road to reason that strength must be proven in order to be true, and beating a character isn't an automatic sign of strength either, that and different people have different criteria for what they consider a beating or win. I mean... anyway Thor has not received a power boost recently, in my opinion, I'd probably just say try not to view the characters as being written in concrete. Like take Jeph Loeb for example? People can critique his writing for whatever reasons, but what I have found most people don't know is that Thor was holding back in his initial encounter with Red Hulk. At least as far as Word of God is concerned, but then again there isn't really anything to indicate in that one issue that Thor was, only some vague references and the writers words in a Wizard magazine interview released around the same time. So using that as an example to gauge the power between those two characters? Maybe not the best? So you do remember correctly but context eh.

@SC said:

Well, I can't really address everything you said, so I'll just address a few points, but feel free to ask questions. Thor's strength officially is incalculable. Its the highest rank Marvel gives officially, and so it potentially could be unlimited and when I say potentially, I mean he is officially in the category thats got characters that lift over 100 tons and over to whatever is the biggest number you can think of. Now he is a fictional character and so naturally as many fictional characters attributes, there will be inconsistency, but unlike a character like say Daredevil? His strength isn't really supposed to be given a hard number. Its supposed to be ambiguous and vague, since Thor is one of those characters, that given a particular context can dig in and perform any sort of strength feat. He's not the only character like that, most of the characters in that strength category are that way. (Hulk, Juggernaut, Gladiator, Blue Marvel, uh Galactus... Living Tribunal and Death and every abstract being. Heh heh)

Naturally this doesn't mean that Thor has no strength limits, more that they'll naturally fluctuate depending on the writer, editor, story and so on. Even a bit of reader interpretation. Superman mind you for intents and purposes has the same time of strength Thor does, strength dependent on the plot, writer, fan base etc

Well I think Thor's exact upper limit is uncertain but thats something you could say of almost any character - not just characters in th Class 100+ category. Spider-Man or Captain America vary a lot from story to story. And I dont think its quite the same as saying he can perfom any strength feat or that we can't make some useful statements about what things we might expect Thor to be able to do or not based on his history or that we cant state with good reason why we think a different character is probably stronger.

I also think theres a difference between having an undefined upper limit like most characters do and the Hulk where (I would argue at least) its uncertain/ambiguous as to whether he has an upper limit whatsoever as to how strong he can become.

Its also a tricky road to reason that strength must be proven in order to be true, and beating a character isn't an automatic sign of strength either, that and different people have different criteria for what they consider a beating or win.

True.

I mean... anyway Thor has not received a power boost recently, in my opinion, I'd probably just say try not to view the characters as being written in concrete. Like take Jeph Loeb for example? People can critique his writing for whatever reasons, but what I have found most people don't know is that Thor was holding back in his initial encounter with Red Hulk.

Hmmm, not sure about that. Thor's first blow was a double-handed Mjolnir strike to the face delivered with the words "and now you die!". Certainly Thor was not prepared for the type of hulk he fought but i don't think he was holding back.

At least as far as Word of God is concerned, but then again there isn't really anything to indicate in that one issue that Thor was, only some vague references and the writers words in a Wizard magazine interview released around the same time. So using that as an example to gauge the power between those two characters? Maybe not the best? So you do remember correctly but context eh.

@Fifthchild said:

Well I think Thor's exact upper limit is uncertain but thats something you could say of almost any character - not just characters in th Class 100+ category. Spider-Man or Captain America vary a lot from story to story.

I agree, and what I mean by uncertain is that you probably won't get a writer to give you a number as far as how many tons Thor can lift and if you did find a writer who told you that Thor can lift 567, 898, 655.05 tons? Chances are you will have another writer that would disagree or not commit to a writer, ditto editors. Following that characters like Spider-man and Daredevil? Well there strength is more certain, relatively. Its as inconsistent, but they are going to be intended to fit a certain parameter. Then you have the trouble of writers actually knowing things like what is a realistic accurate strength depiction for a character they intend to be say human, or peak human, or mutated strength with a known limit. Spider-Man won't be throwing buildings around, but where he might struggle with a car some stories, others he might throw a small truck.

@Fifthchild said:

And I dont think its quite the same as saying he can perfom any strength feat or that we can't make some useful statements about what things we might expect Thor to be able to do or not based on his history or that we cant state with good reason why we think a different character is probably stronger.

He can in the sense as I mean, in that Thor might be in the Library of the Forgotten, and he needs to find a spell that will save Asgard, but in order to do that he must lift the Book of Infinite Knowledge, a book that weighs the same as all life ever, but Thor tries to lift the Book in issue #34, but fails and he might break his wrist, because the weight of all life... ever? Thats even heavy than the Midgard Serpent and the World Tree and 400 million Asgardian Elephants (in other words weights that we can't actually quantify accurately or objectively, but you can kind of tell is suppose to sound a bit impressive) but lo behold in #35 Thor witnesses Kurse punching Sif and filled with renewed vigor Thor manages to lift the Book of Infinite Knowledge even though its "literally" somehow as heavy as all life ever... uh.

So even if Thor fails to lift something, it doesn't actually mean he can't lift something, and it doesn't mean he can lift it either, really the consistent thing about what he can and can't do is that it depends. Where as it wouldn't be as consistent for Daredevil to lift the Infinite Book of Knowledge after realizing that for 20 years he actually had superhuman powers and strength that rivaled a gods. I mean even using Kurse as an example of a character that one could argue is definitely stronger than Thor, a good example, it could still be argued that Thor's strength like humans strength fluctuates - but to what extent? In the past Thor has at times overpowered Kurse, adrenaline surge? The now retconned Beyonder did a cruddy job with Kurse? Or you know, insert reasonable thought here with the potential to merge some or all. So I think I agree with you, but to me Thor like many other characters can pretty much perform any strength feat (but that doesn't mean they will)

@Fifthchild said:

I also think theres a difference between having an undefined upper limit like most characters do and the Hulk where (I would argue at least) its uncertain/ambiguous as to whether he has an upper limit whatsoever as to how strong he can become.

I agree, Hulk and a few characters abilities to internally increase their traits is different than some other characters abilities to do the same. To me its important to mention the internally bit because technically speaking all characters and people have undefined upper limits. Its sort of a matter of defining a checklist (like the realm or dimension that gives Hulk his mass, its internal to him, but if he were cut off from that? Alternatively any character with the Power Gem and the ability ti use it well)

@Fifthchild said:

Hmmm, not sure about that. Thor's first blow was a double-handed Mjolnir strike to the face delivered with the words "and now you die!". Certainly Thor was not prepared for the type of hulk he fought but i don't think he was holding back.

Your telling me, when I read that issue I figured Thor was joking when he referenced that Hulk was suppose to be green. Apparently he was being literal in his question. Oh Loeb lol Your good at tracking down things, don't suppose you know Wizard magazine well? I use to have a scan of the page (I think its Wizard #198) its the Loeb interview I am referencing. To me it didn't seem like Thor was holding back either, but usually when I read comics I don't tend to form rigid opinions on what is happening, I am one of those people that always thinks in probabilities and possibilities even when it comes to surefire things.

@SC Very valid points

@SC said:

@Fifthchild said:

Well I think Thor's exact upper limit is uncertain but thats something you could say of almost any character - not just characters in th Class 100+ category. Spider-Man or Captain America vary a lot from story to story.

I agree, and what I mean by uncertain is that you probably won't get a writer to give you a number as far as how many tons Thor can lift and if you did find a writer who told you that Thor can lift 567, 898, 655.05 tons? Chances are you will have another writer that would disagree or not commit to a writer, ditto editors. Following that characters like Spider-man and Daredevil? Well there strength is more certain, relatively. Its as inconsistent, but they are going to be intended to fit a certain parameter. Then you have the trouble of writers actually knowing things like what is a realistic accurate strength depiction for a character they intend to be say human, or peak human, or mutated strength with a known limit. Spider-Man won't be throwing buildings around, but where he might struggle with a car some stories, others he might throw a small truck.

Agree with all the above.

@Fifthchild said:

And I dont think its quite the same as saying he can perfom any strength feat or that we can't make some useful statements about what things we might expect Thor to be able to do or not based on his history or that we cant state with good reason why we think a different character is probably stronger.

He can in the sense as I mean, in that Thor might be in the Library of the Forgotten, and he needs to find a spell that will save Asgard, but in order to do that he must lift the Book of Infinite Knowledge, a book that weighs the same as all life ever, but Thor tries to lift the Book in issue #34, but fails and he might break his wrist, because the weight of all life... ever? Thats even heavy than the Midgard Serpent and the World Tree and 400 million Asgardian Elephants (in other words weights that we can't actually quantify accurately or objectively, but you can kind of tell is suppose to sound a bit impressive) but lo behold in #35 Thor witnesses Kurse punching Sif and filled with renewed vigor Thor manages to lift the Book of Infinite Knowledge even though its "literally" somehow as heavy as all life ever... uh.

Hmmmm I'm a little less in agreement here though. Certainly that could happen but i dont think you would be likely to see Thor lifiting something of infinite weight. I probably couldn't really envisage Thor performing a strength feat like Superman's recent Earth-press for example.

I realise though that arguments based on what one can and can't imagine a character doing are pretty personal and can easily be confounded by actual comic events. Still I think theres also worth to looking at the sort of things that Thor has done and how frequently and those kind of lifting feats dont really fall into his dominion that much IMO, at least not these days.

So even if Thor fails to lift something, it doesn't actually mean he can't lift something, and it doesn't mean he can lift it either, really the consistent thing about what he can and can't do is that it depends.

In the long term - i definitely agree. A single showing in isloation never tells the whole story.

Where as it wouldn't be as consistent for Daredevil to lift the Infinite Book of Knowledge after realizing that for 20 years he actually had superhuman powers and strength that rivaled a gods.

I think we can all agree that would be a much bigger stretch.

I mean even using Kurse as an example of a character that one could argue is definitely stronger than Thor, a good example, it could still be argued that Thor's strength like humans strength fluctuates - but to what extent? In the past Thor has at times overpowered Kurse, adrenaline surge? The now retconned Beyonder did a cruddy job with Kurse? Or you know, insert reasonable thought here with the potential to merge some or all. So I think I agree with you, but to me Thor like many other characters can pretty much perform any strength feat (but that doesn't mean they will)

Hmmm well I think Kurse is an example of a character who is indeed definitely stronger than Thor. His whole deal is that he is multiple times as strong as Thor and while Thor's exact strength may not be weel defined he isn't IMO a character whose strength fluctuates from an in story perspective.

I don't think I've ever seen Thor overpower Kurse either. He's stood up to him better than you might think someone might stand up to someone 2 to 4 times as strong as them but I dont know that i would go further than that.

@Fifthchild said:

I also think theres a difference between having an undefined upper limit like most characters do and the Hulk where (I would argue at least) its uncertain/ambiguous as to whether he has an upper limit whatsoever as to how strong he can become.

I agree, Hulk and a few characters abilities to internally increase their traits is different than some other characters abilities to do the same. To me its important to mention the internally bit because technically speaking all characters and people have undefined upper limits. Its sort of a matter of defining a checklist (like the realm or dimension that gives Hulk his mass, its internal to him, but if he were cut off from that? Alternatively any character with the Power Gem and the ability ti use it well)

Fair enough though i think most people would make the distinction between the potential one had to use the powers they have right now and their potential to acquire the Infinity Gauntlet or what have you. I suppose prep type characters are the ones who really confound this distinction though.

@Fifthchild said:

Hmmm, not sure about that. Thor's first blow was a double-handed Mjolnir strike to the face delivered with the words "and now you die!". Certainly Thor was not prepared for the type of hulk he fought but i don't think he was holding back.

Your telling me, when I read that issue I figured Thor was joking when he referenced that Hulk was suppose to be green. Apparently he was being literal in his question. Oh Loeb lol Your good at tracking down things, don't suppose you know Wizard magazine well? I use to have a scan of the page (I think its Wizard #198) its the Loeb interview I am referencing. To me it didn't seem like Thor was holding back either, but usually when I read comics I don't tend to form rigid opinions on what is happening, I am one of those people that always thinks in probabilities and possibilities even when it comes to surefire things.

I know the one you are talking about and i probably have a scan around here somewhere though it might take me awhile to track down.

I'll have a go though. Had some interesting tidbits.

Anwyay good talking to you.

@JJ62: dude if we start looking at Thors strenght feats vs the hulks Thor is far greater in strenght ...The midgard serpent wrapped around earth multiple time and could crush it Thor ovrpowers it breaks its grip and lifts it ....

The Odinsword Thor lifts a sword so large the weight could not be calculated by odin ..the god of wisdom ...then he hurls it thru a celestial ..go read on celestial armor and how durable it is...he has crumbled uru to dust with his hand the asgardian equivalent of adamantium ...

he pushed the world tree against its will the world tree holds the 9 realms earth is like a fruit on 1 of its branches ...

and the the stated

Book of Infinite Knowledge, a book that weighs the same as all life ever,

ALL THESE FEATS hulk cannot compare his strength feats to this ...the best the hulk has done is brace a 150billion ton mountain with help from jean grey and he stated he could not hold any longer ...

and held sakaar together all these pale in comparison to Thors feats .....do not mistake Thor holding back and not wanting to kill banner as a sign of him lesser than the hulk in strength

Better question: how can a wiki be "official"?

@commyt Hulk has many feats, he would've cracked the world once if he didn't hold himself back, he smashed an entire planet in Incredible Hulks 364-365, he destroyed an asteroid that was TWICE the size of Earth. Destroyed Nightmare's entire realm, shattered adamantium with his bare hands. Overpowering Gladiator and Thor. Beating up Thor using his own hammer. Pushing closed the door of a nuclear core that the combined efforts of Thing and Thor couldn't close (why would Thor hold back then?), defeating the Sentry (power of 1 million exploding suns, Marvel's equivalent of Superman) I'm not by any means saying that Hulk is stronger, but their feats are around equal. I've always considered then equals in terms of pure strength, but I've never seen Thor overpower him...or Gladiator...or Hercules...or Rulk, if I remember correctly Thor AND Hulk lost to Rulk and then didn't win until they worked together. Again, not saying Hulk is necessarily stronger, but their feats are around equal man...

And Thor has never once held back against Hulk...or Gladiator...or Hercules. Because those are all guys that can bring it every bit as well as Thor can, If Thor held back against them he'd always lose. They mostly stalemate...Thor doesent hold back against people who can take his punches, why should he? And besides Banner holds Hulk back as well, he suppresses him for fear of wrecking cities and planets...

@JJ62:their feats are not equal none off those feats compare to freaking pushing the world engine for crying out loud some people say that that would define strenght that could be called limitless......you have to understand a couple things about comics ...sometimes they want a chracter to shine ...put this in perspective when the vision went after the avengers the first time he whooped everybody ....the vision cannot even try playing with thor now cauz he would be crushed ...so sometimes the writer wants a character to be in he spotlight ...actually there is a comic where Thor fighs a pissed off hulk and thing at the same time with just pure strength .....not in fear itself but in classic comics....

@JJ62: this is after thor stops holding back on the juggernaut ..first his helment is made of adamanitum and After just about 5 blows the Thor would have killed him if he hit him again......this is without mjolnir ......dude Thor has stated mannnnyyy times that he feels bad for banner thus does not wish to kill him the hulk could care less most off the hulk vs thor battles are pis ...period thor still holds back against even higher beings than the hulk on earth as he says that his blows can destroy the planet Thor has crushed moons with his fist

yes it is editable however it has to be approved before it can be posted ...infact each claim on here has the refrence to the comic it was taken from ...

@sommytsaid:

@JJ62: dude if we start looking at Thors strenght feats vs the hulks Thor is far greater in strenght ...The midgard serpent wrapped around earth multiple time and could crush it Thor ovrpowers it breaks its grip and lifts it ....

The Odinsword Thor lifts a sword so large the weight could not be calculated by odin ..the god of wisdom ...then he hurls it thru a celestial ..go read on celestial armor and how durable it is...he has crumbled uru to dust with his hand the asgardian equivalent of adamantium ...

he pushed the world tree against its will the world tree holds the 9 realms earth is like a fruit on 1 of its branches ...

and the the stated

Book of Infinite Knowledge, a book that weighs the same as all life ever,

ALL THESE FEATS hulk cannot compare his strength feats to this ...the best the hulk has done is brace a 150billion ton mountain with help from jean grey and he stated he could not hold any longer ...

and held sakaar together all these pale in comparison to Thors feats .....do not mistake Thor holding back and not wanting to kill banner as a sign of him lesser than the hulk in strength

this

:

@Fifthchild said:

Hmmmm I'm a little less in agreement here though. Certainly that could happen but i dont think you would be likely to see Thor lifiting something of infinite weight. I probably couldn't really envisage Thor performing a strength feat like Superman's recent Earth-press for example. I realise though that arguments based on what one can and can't imagine a character doing are pretty personal and can easily be confounded by actual comic events. Still I think theres also worth to looking at the sort of things that Thor has done and how frequently and those kind of lifting feats dont really fall into his dominion that much IMO, at least not these days.

Oh lol, well I don't think you'd see any character lift something of actual infinite weight, but I think you could see a character lift the book of Infinite Knowledge, because thats something abstract and or mystical. So if a character did lift something of infinite weight, because it certainly could happen, you could question whether it was actually legitimately something of infinite weight or just creative license. Like imagining if you had access to every writer and could ask them any question, I think you can see where I am going?

I could imagine Thor doing something similar to what Superman did but first a lot of other contexts would have to change. I could/couldn't imagine Galactus performing a strength feat like Superman either, because of many of the similar contexts Scott Lobdell is very great at giving fans what he thinks they want and Superman's strength ties into his core character a lot more than say Thor for a lot more writers and a lot more fans, without actually speaking about who is stronger. Molly Hayes character strength is more important to her character than it is Galactus, hence she will get more strength feats and have to assert her strength and superior strength a lot. Not only that but Superman has to one up comic characters in general, impress, affirm, capture the wonder and admiration of fans. He has done so traditionally in a way no other superheroes have.It was also a nod to another popular Superman story done by Grant Morrison, so if you wanted to see Thor (or Galactus) perform an Earth press you don't have to change Thor, you have to change quite a few other things, get in a new writer who is looking to impress fans, who believes he will get a bunch of fans excited about playing up Thor's strength because thats how the character's strength is viewed, have the characters popularity peaking, Oh and they could probably even reference during the scene Thor's Midgard Serpent feat as a clever nod to another Thor story "Wow Thor your pressing the equivalent of the weight of the Earth multiplied by nine, and you have been doing it for 7 days" - "Verily young mortal, tis noth the firsteth timeth I have lifteth incredibeth hugeth weights, tis once lifted the Midgard Serpent, tis hathevth clashed with Hercules and Hulketh - Hela, Thor has once lifeth Volstagg up"

So to me I really emphasis on the "could" here, given the fictional nature of all this and writing trends. I mean a few years back Thor spoke in space and not the same way a bunch of characters use to, the other characters (Iron Man) was puzzled at how it was possible, and the lazy answer is because he is a god, or of a mystical nature, something thats pretty consistent with him. For me? Feats by themselves mean nothing, and because of that absence of feats means nothing since there are other ways to measure consistency and absence of not meaning lack of, and this is a medium where lack of doesn't even mean always lack of.

@Fifthchild said:

Hmmm well I think Kurse is an example of a character who is indeed definitely stronger than Thor. His whole deal is that he is multiple times as strong as Thor and while Thor's exact strength may not be weel defined he isn't IMO a character whose strength fluctuates from an in story perspective. I don't think I've ever seen Thor overpower Kurse either. He's stood up to him better than you might think someone might stand up to someone 2 to 4 times as strong as them but I dont know that i would go further than that.

Oh with the overpower thing I am just going by the narration, but that opens up a whole nother bunch of points to make. One issue Thor according to the narration overpowers Kurse when he sees Lady Sif in peril, but that doesn't mean that Kurse was necessarily applying absolutely all his strength at that particular time so context matters too, since Thor would not have overpowered Kurse otherwise. To me all organic characters strength should fluctuate/fluctuates in the in story narrative to mirror reality. Sure not all writers or fans will have this perspective, but its one of those things like sound in space that if you mentioned to them that weightlifters and runners hardly ever lift or run the exact numbers each time they perform a repetitive task even after attempting to eliminate all other variables (motivation, health, environment etc) you end up naturally concluding that such things fluctuate. Which goes back to Kurse and Thor and by what process did Beyonder measure and quantify Thor's strength and then proceed to increase Kurse to be that multiple?@Fifthchild said:

Anwyay good talking to you.

Cheers and I return the sentiment, I actually feel like I am discussing comics and characters with you, rather than just repeating preset assertions heh heh.

@sommyt said:

@JJ62: this is after thor stops holding back on the juggernaut ..first his helment is made of adamanitum and After just about 5 blows the Thor would have killed him if he hit him again......this is without mjolnir ......dude Thor has stated mannnnyyy times that he feels bad for banner thus does not wish to kill him the hulk could care less most off the hulk vs thor battles are pis ...period thor still holds back against even higher beings than the hulk on earth as he says that his blows can destroy the planet Thor has crushed moons with his fist

yes it is editable however it has to be approved before it can be posted ...infact each claim on here has the refrence to the comic it was taken from ...

those were the good days... battered juggernaut hand to hand... now marvel doesnt have that respect for thor.. hes a jobber, and much like iron man and cyclops an equipment guy outside the hammer.. nothing, beaten up by collusus , ultimaate thor... beaten routinely by hulk..... just a jobber....pains me to say it but its true