@themadsurfer: Well they didn't really show there fight so we don't know what happened really it looks like she got him and he never recovered quick enough but im with you i was mad also

Interesting, maybe Angela cuts Thor's arm off.

Where the video of Thor and Angela used to be until MrMad(Pushy)Surfer made me take it out because it didn't make Thor look good rather than it showing Thor's slow combat speed.

@coolcat4: They actually showed a slaughter where Thor couldn't hit her even once. I was 100% he would loose this fight because of plot and because the guy that owns her said "...She can beat Thor in any day of the week and twice on Sundays". BUT there was no fight, even I could do a better fight between the two with at least some city scale of destruction.

If she's indeed faster than Thor's hammer than there is and will never be a fight but I really doubt that... I acknowledge Thor was fighting the hole Angel army before and they said he was weakened but there is no excuses in making a dumb fight when everybody was expecting something on ''GOT'' level.

@themadsurfer: I've posted a video above of the entire issue and nowhere does it mention that Thor was weakened in any way. Can you prove that he was? Because I never saw any reference in the issue itself that Thor was weakened before fighting Angela.

@lvenger: 3:40 ''But... the enemy is weakened. To attack in numbers, before he has regained his strength..."

This makes sense, thanks.

@lvenger: did you like that issue ? For me it was a mixed bag, I wanted a proper fight but all I got was a Thor smack down, witch is ok cause he got a pretty decent in issue 2. Angela beating him cause of her speed was cool but I would have like for her to find out there and then that she was fighting her brother.

Well he didn't seem that weakened honestly and it fits with the consistent evidence that Thor does not have very fast combat speed or reflexes at all. Thus Angela could speed blitz him into unconsciousness. You can't just write it off as jobbing merely because it doesn't fit with Thor's track record of victories. Besides, this was written by the same writer that gave him planet busting feats so it's not as if the writer thinks low of Thor's overall power. It's the simple fact that Thor's kryptonite is essentially someone much faster than him.

@lvenger: So the author saying she's faster than him is OK but him saying he was weakened is not??? He was already bleeding and fighting others machines and angels alike but that was no excuse for a beat down like that. And my major complain is that there was no fight at all while they were suggesting there would be an awesome fight!!!

Very easy to put a new character into a legendary family tree and make him faster, as strong. Like I said it was all an plot where the guy said she can beat him any day of the week and twice on Sundays. I was expecting a defeat but not a slaughter otherwise I wouldn't have bought the comic at all. Don't come with this reflexes stuff because we all know Thor in Comics brawls with Gladiator and SS in speed mode to make a show and only in battle threads we debate about that.

But keep on ignoring what is written in the comic to match your thoughts about Thor's combat speed. We can't ignore Thor being slower but at the same time we can't ignore he wasn't 100% capable of fighting like her. Let's not forget the fight was a brawl without the use of any extra powers and once Thor acknowledge the difference between her strength and speed in comparison to the angels he was already dominated.

@lvenger: It was stated he was weakened - there's not much more to it. A weakened Thor cannot fight to the best of his abilities.

Disclaimer: I agree speed can matter, but this encounter has serious context.

@frozen: What is this comic you're talking about ?

@spiderman1997: Original Sin #5.3

Angela dominated Thor. However, it was clearly stated Thor was weakened, thus the fight was not representative of his true abilities.

@frozen: Hmm let's see watching Lvenger's video now.

@lvenger: Without being rude I think you should take this video out because he doesn't represent any respect for Thor, actually it does the opposite. Just like nobody posted him being beaten by Emma.

@lvenger is actually a big fan of Thor. I remember him saying that JMS Thor comics are the ones that got him into Marvel in general. He was just making apoint. Which doesn't change the fact that the fight is AWFUL.

@spiderman1997: Which doesn't change the fact the video plays no respect for Thor.

@themadsurfer:

So the author saying she's faster than him is OK but him saying he was weakened is not??? He was already bleeding and fighting others machines and angels alike but that was no excuse for a beat down like that. And my major complain is that there was no fight at all while they were suggesting there would be an awesome fight!!!

Because that confirms the over half a dozen times that Thor has been outpaced by street levellers such as Spider-Man and Wolverine, let alone how he would be left in the dust by faster beings like the ones over at DC. I don't see any injuries on Thor and in all honesty he fought like a mindless brute again instead of using his hammer's weather manipulation and versatility. I think that caused his defeat.

Very easy to put a new character into a legendary family tree and make him faster, as strong. Like I said it was all an plot where the guy said she can beat him any day of the week and twice on Sundays. I was expecting a defeat but not a slaughter otherwise I wouldn't have bought the comic at all. Don't come with this reflexes stuff because we all know Thor in Comics brawls with Gladiator and SS in speed mode to make a show and only in battle threads we debate about that.

Silver Surfer doesn't use his speed in combat and neither does Gladiator utilise his speed effectively. Don't try and go down the combat speed with me because it's an area I'm very well versed in. Thor cannot move faster than street level speed in combat at best and even that's saying something considering how consistently street levellers blitz Thor. Heck Thor admitted that Wolverine was faster than him so that puts any damper on the conclusion that Thor can tag Gladiator or Silver Surfer, let alone Superman and Wonder Woman. As I said, you really don't want to argue combat speed with me as I know Thor very well and am a fan of his character. It doesn't change the fact that he's a slow character and the evidence supports that conclusion.

But keep on ignoring what is written in the comic to match your thoughts about Thor's combat speed. We can't ignore Thor being slower but at the same time we can't ignore he wasn't 100% capable of fighting like her. Let's not forget the fight was a brawl without the use of any extra powers and once Thor acknowledge the difference between her strength and speed in comparison to the angels he was already dominated.

I've already debunked your incorrect assertion about Thor's combat speed so don't cling to that falsehood any more. And that's how Thor fights 99% of the time though. Hammer blows and throws are his go to strategy rather than use his enchanted hammer with weather control and energy blasts. Throughout Thor's history that's how he's fought more often than not and it cannot be ignored just because he lost a fight.

Without being rude I think you should take this video out because he doesn't represent any respect for Thor, actually it does the opposite. Just like nobody posted him being beaten by Emma.

I wasn't the one who started this train of thought about Thor's recent loss and I can't deny that this isn't a little bit pushy on your part. People do want to to see this video and it does represent Thor's true combat speed. If NewWorldOrder wants me to take it out, I will do so because this thread was started by him and I'll respect his wishes. You however can't tell me to get rid of it especially when I didn't start the conversation about Thor's latest loss.

He didn't look that weakened and I think him fighting like a dumb brute as per usual caused his loss rather than any so called weakness.

Well, true that.

@lvenger: OK this is not to be discussed in this thread for the last time, is that the only thing you can say: Thor is slow and a brute blablabla. I already heard that before from you at least 30 times.

You can think whatever you want it's stated he was weakened, whether it was a lot or not we will never know until they fight again. Previous issue he was bleeding in the face.

I've most of the scans you posted in the video but I didn't post them because I know it wouldn't respect Thor. Do you see anyone posting him being blitzed by wolverine, NOOO because that doesn't play respect for him at all!!!

I said the writer makes SS and Gladiator being tagged by Thor to have a show and not a boring fight like this. Read first before posting something you already told me 100 times and I actually agree in someways although not in wolverine level.

So... please could you take out this video because although it represents how slow Thor is in comparison to a character with unknown combat speed limits, he doesn't respect Thor at all. Thank you at least for reading...

@lvenger: It was stated he was weakened. Thor being slow, brutish, etc is irrelevant if he can't fight to the best of his abilities.

You can't possibly take one aspect of the comic and ignore another, which yields massive context. Thor was weakened and the fight did not represent his true capabilities. You yourself asked where was it stated that he was weakened, and an answer was given to you.

You can't make up your own interpretation of his loss. Thor being consistentley slow has no relevance to being in a weak state.

I agree speed does matter, but the reason why he lost certainly doesn't match your own interpretation. And using this to show speed beats Thor isn't the best idea due to context. You can use other feats to show Thor is slow, but it's highly unfair and bias to use this showing and ignore a clear confirmation of Thor's condition, regardless of ''Well, he didn't look weakened''.

If you are in a weakened state, you cannot think in the right mind, your body cannot tank shots or endure as well, you cannot brace yourself, etc.

Thus, this fight really isn't a valid test and I'd be highly surprised if people were to use such a fight in the Battles Forum.

@themadsurfer: Fine so be it though you're being entirely unreasonable and purposefully difficult in your position. But I'd rather avoid this escalating as I've had enough of such things already. The video will be gone by the time you see this comment.

@frozen: This remains proof that Thor is a slow character and that against foes with faster speed and comparable strength, this is evidence he'll lose more often than not. And I find that hiding behind the so called weakness claim ignores the fact that the comic indicates that it was Angela's initial assault that weakened Thor, not that he'd lost power beforehand. The Angels were just remarking that Angela's attacks had opened him up for a beat-down from the rest of the Angels. Otherwise, why would the Angels be worried about his strength returning so quickly if he entered the battle already weakened? That's the context you cannot disregard.

@lvenger: Why are you always try to prove that Thor is not Fast, its just to make sure that Superman beats Thor , aren t you fan of both why one must be stronger to you...

as it was said in OS 5.3 he was weakened from the events of 5.2...(battle alone against all angels and their machines)

@asgaror said:

@lvenger: Why are you always try to prove that Thor is not Fast, its just to make sure that Superman beats Thor , aren t you fan of both why one must be stronger to you...

as it was said in OS 5.3 he was weakened from the events of 5.2...(battle alone against all angels and their machines)

Because empirically speaking he is not fast. I do love both characters but if one is clearly faster than the other, then I acknowledge that and don't fabricate truths or lies like false bias on Superman's part to prove he wins. I'm sick and tired of people using that card against me to make out that just because Superman is my favourite character, that's why I back him over Thor and Hulk when that could not be more wrong. I make up my mind on who wins fights based on the feats and logical reasoning of a character's capabilities.

There are plenty of Marvel characters that can beat Superman but Thor is not one of them in a fair fight. Until Thor gets combat speed and reflex showings that enable him to tag Superman, he can't land the blows he needs to beat Superman. Also on the weakened front:

And I find that hiding behind the so called weakness claim ignores the fact that the comic indicates that it was Angela's initial assault that weakened Thor, not that he'd lost power beforehand. The Angels were just remarking that Angela's attacks had opened him up for a beat-down from the rest of the Angels. Otherwise, why would the Angels be worried about his strength returning so quickly if he entered the battle already weakened? That's the context you cannot disregard.

It's not really. We ALREADY know Thor is slow, but if you attempt to use THIS as an indication, then that's a highly dangerous argument.

It's not ''hiding'' --- the comic stated it. If you attempt to ignore that and look at the fight, it'll compliment your argument nicely, HOWEVER, it's something that cannot be ignored. Being weakened means you are weaker - you're not as strong, you're not as sharp, your durability and damage soak is far lower and one cannot think in the right state of mind.

Also, Angela did NOT weaken Thor --- he was weakened prior to that fight alltogether.

I find using this fight very dodgy and skewed because he was simply weakened. It bares no representativeness to his overall ability.

I'm FINE with you using OTHER feats to show Thor is slow, but using this particular fight really isn't the best idea. If you want to make up your mind on 'logical reasoning'; acknowledging Thor's condition was weaker should be a given I also judge on logical reasoning --- logically, I can see Thor as slow, but from a purely objective standpoint, away from which side I fall onto for the speed argument, this fight really isn't the best example to use.

I would be very surprised if people genuinely attempt to use this fight to demonstrate Thor is slow, or that Angela won a truly fair fight {she didn't}.

Why? Because Thor was weakened? I dealt with that claim already.

Yes the comic stated it but it did not mean Thor was weakened BEFORE he fought Angela. I've just seen another video on Original Sin 5.2 and Thor does not seem very fazed by the angels or the machines they sent to fight him. It was only AFTER Angela attacked him that he started to weaken due to her superior speed and piercing weaponry. That's why the angels remarked that Thor was weakened and not during their assault on him. You can try and quote the dictionary definition of weakened all you like mate but you're just making up an excuse for the context of the fight clearly demonstrating that Angela was the one who weakened Thor, not anything else beforehand. It's really as simple as that and I have several other credible debaters who I can cite that agree with me.

@lvenger: You didn't really deal with the claim, but moreso pushed it aside.

He was weakened before he fought Angela.....Thor was attacked my angels and machines. He was bleeding prior to the fight. Prior to this comic, he bled in the previous issue and was attacked. To try and say Angela was the one that weakened him really makes no sense, considering we were shown he was weakened in the previous comic.

It's not really an excuse either; the fight has heavy context, you are attempting to justify a fight which clearly has variables going against it - I could easily just as well cite debaters who would agree with me.

It's incredibly questionable to even use such a fight if it's stated clear as day and shown, Thor was weakened prior to the assault.

@lvenger: With all respect for me you are not a Thor Fan...

If Thor is not fast how could spin mjolnir so fast to create a propeller to fly?

@frozen:

You didn't really deal with the claim, but moreso pushed it aside.

How does pointing out that Angela's attacks were the only one to faze Thor not suffice as dealing with your claim? That's wishful thinking on your part entirely.

He was weakened before he fought Angela.....Thor was attacked my angels and machines. He was bleeding prior to the fight. Prior to this comic, he bled in the previous issue and was attacked. To try and say Angela was the one that weakened him really makes no sense, considering we were shown he was weakened in the previous comic.

I believe @dondave would disagree with your analysis and fall more in line with my interpretation. I've seen both issues and it's clear Angela was the only one to really hurt Thor, not the machines he faced in the previous issue.

It's not really an excuse either; the fight has heavy context, you are attempting to justify a fight which clearly has variables going against it - I could easily just as well cite debaters who would agree with me.

I've done so already so feel free to cite those who agree with you. And the fight does have heavy context but you are overlooking the blatant fact that only Angela's attacks were giving Thor real damage. Not the machines or angels beforehand. You're the one who's overlooked more variables here, not me which is becoming repetitive on your part now,

It's incredibly questionable to even use such a fight if it's stated clear as day and shown, Thor was weakened prior to the assault.

Incorrect, what is shown clear as day is that Angela is the only one to affect Thor with the most damage which prompts the angels to comment on Thor being weakened. Was that comment made during their attempts to harm Thor? The answer is an obvious no so going against this is really tantamount to going against what's shown clear as day.

So one shotting Angels and Machines weakens Thor so much that he's blitzed into unconsciousness?

Angela was the person who weakened him. The Angel was remarking that Angela had weakened him and it would be best for all the Angels to strike.

@lvenger:

1. That's not dealing with my claim. Angela did phaze Thor, but so did attacks prior to the encounter and the swarm he was attacked with
2. I believe either @New_World_Order or @killemall may disagree with your analysis. Angela did hurt Thor. What I'm saying is that in the previous issue, the machines also hurt him, they briefly blitzed him and pierced him, making him bleed. He was visibly bleeding and the comment was made of his weakness in the next issue
3. I'm afraid not - constantly saying Thor is slow does not justify this fight if it's been made clear that he was weakened. I'm aware Angela hurt him, that's because he was weaker prior to that

It's shown clear as day, the previous attack hurt Thor and made him work.

Prior to the fight, he was already bleeding.

The comments then made are:

But the enemy is weakened. To attack in numbers before he has regained his strength --- is the highest strategy....

Attacking in numbers is what they did.

He had been fighting for an entire comic, and hurt at different times, it's pretty obvious that's what the reference is to.

@frozen: I just read the 2nd issue and watched the fight again and I may have been able to put some context into it. Thor didn't even want to fight in the first place. When the Dreadnaughts attacked it was stated that the blast shook him therefore he was weakened and after he defeated the army, he was worn out(evidenced by the blood on his face) and just when he was trying to seek out answers, Angela came in and attacked suddenly. She was bloodlusted and she continued her attack while Thor was on defensive, he was holding back on top of being weakened. Thus he couldn' fight to the best of his abilities. Because of this, when Thor threw his hammer he couldn't do it with proper strength and Angela dodged it.. When Thor realized that he should've fought back it was too late because he was already stabbed a couple of times and bleeding to death. I maybe wrong but this is the best explanation I can come up with regarding how easy he was defeated.

@dondave: If you attribute it to easily one-shotting then why did they both hurt him, tire him and make him bleed?

Pretty much.

@frozen: Off-topic. Why is it that when someone replies me it takes minutes for email to get to me ?

So Thor was blitzed by Angela because someone made his nose bleed. Really?

It was Angela blitzing him that weakened him.

@dondave: I'm saying that there are 3 scans which not only show Thor to be tired and hurt, but also bleeding prior to the fight. He was fighting for the entire comic, and while he was winning, they clearly hurt him.

I'd like to see @New_World_Order take though.

Angela attacked him before the fight began though

@spiderman1997: Those were the machines and angels.

He was only hit once in the entire fight with the Angels.

@dondave: some many assumptions lets see how it ends, We still are in issue 3 of 5 ... I think you are claiming something in the middle of the game.

@spiderman1997 said:

@dondave said:

@frozen said:

@dondave: If you attribute it to easily one-shotting then why did they both hurt him, tire him and make him bleed?

So Thor was blitzed by Angela because someone made his nose bleed. Really?

It was Angela blitzing him that weakened him.

Angela attacked him before the fight began though

That wasn't Angela.

That him being hit by the Dreadnought. That's the only hit he took before he fought Angela.

@dondave: OMG why is it that those damn emails recently take ages to get to me ?!

I was planning on making a way better respect thread anyways. I'm just gathering my feats at the moment.

@dondave: I'll show you the scans, substantiated with Thor's own words.

Scan 1 - Thor is clearly hurt.

Scan 2 - Thor is tired and does not wish to battle

Scan 3 - Thor is bleeding, after fighting for an entire comic

Scan 4 - It is then acknowledged, after Thor's battle that the enemy {Thor} is weakened

Nice.

I tagged you to ask, whether you also believe Thor was weakened in battle prior to the fight. Also tag @experio

@New_World_Order: I think we should keep this alive. How old is this one a year ?

@lvenger: Would you rather continue this here or in PM?

@asgaror said:

@lvenger: With all respect for me you are not a Thor Fan...

If Thor is not fast how could spin mjolnir so fast to create a propeller to fly?

That is absolutely preposterous and a ridiculous claim to make. You're acting absolutely absurd for calling me not a fan of the character just because I point out the factual proof that Thor is not fast in combat speed. Does being a Thor fan include having to believe falsehoods about a character's capabilities? You do not have the right to say I'm not a fan of a character that I have been for 7 years now. I won't debunk your Thor scans because I've done so before and people aren't liking my sound defense

There's nothing to continue. One hit from an energy cannon does not make him weakened by the time Angela fought him. Thus making it abundantly clear that it WAS Angela who weakened Thor and it was AFTER Angela attacked Thor that the angels said "But the enemy is weakened." If you honestly think one energy blast from a random cannon can make Thor weak, that's seriously underrating Thor's durability.

@frozen said:

@dondave: I'll show you the scans, substantiated with Thor's own words.

Scan 1 - Thor is clearly hurt.

Scan 2 - Thor is tired and does not wish to battle

Scan 3 - Thor is bleeding, after fighting for an entire comic

Scan 4 - It is then acknowledged, after Thor's battle that the enemy {Thor} is weakened

Your second scan doesn't in anyway way show that Thor was tired. It just shows his wondering what a Dreadnought is. Which he then proceeds to oneshot.

He wasn't fighting for an entire comic either, he fought for four pages. The last three pages of said fight according to Angel's Queen took place in mere seconds. His first swing of Mjonir was more than halfway through the comic.

If fighting for a couple of minutes weakened Thor so much that he's then blitzed by Angela, Thor has a bigger problem than being slow.