I dont really "believe in" PIS that much and besides which its not really relevant to a discussion of which character has gotten owned the most. If you got owned, you got owned. Whether it should have happened or otherwise.

I cant agree on this. I think people have this perception on a board like this because Thor gets talked up waaaaaaaay more than Hulk but that largely reflects the fact that this place is all about what people think "should happen".

I dont think Marvel have it in for Thor - that just doesnt make any sense. I do think that in the past decade or so the perception of most creators at Marvel regarding who Thor is and the perception held by many of his biggest fans of what he should be has diverged and thats caused a lot of unhappiness. And though there may be many super-duper characters that there is no shame in losing to that doesnt mean that seeing Thor get smacked around by someone really, really powerful every second issue is necessarily an enjoyable experience for a fan.

@cmartin: In the last ten years Hulk has been beaten by, Red Hulk, Abomination, Zeus and U-Foes,

@cmartin: In the last ten years Hulk has been beaten by, Red Hulk, Abomination, Zeus and U-Foes,

@Vance Astro said:

@Fifthchild said:

I dont really "believe in" PIS that much and besides which its not really relevant to a discussion of which character has gotten owned the most. If you got owned, you got owned. Whether it should have happened or otherwise.

It's not relevant to who got owned the most but it is relevant to the events of the last 5 years.

Perhaps but the topic of discussion was the statement that "Hulk gets owned alot more than Thor does even in his own books" which just isnt true IMO, "PIS" or not.

@Fifthchild said:

I cant agree on this. I think people have this perception on a board like this because Thor gets talked up waaaaaaaay more than Hulk but that largely reflects the fact that this place is all about what people think "should happen".

I don't think that has anything to do with this board. I think that's many comic fans in general.

I disagree. I think its easy to lose sight of it if you are deeply ensconced here but this board has a POV that is pretty much totally removed from "comic book reality". On this board Thor is an epic, versatile powerhouse far, far beyond someone Hulk, who's be lucky to beat anyone this side of The Thing. But its never really been like that in the comics.

I can understand someone feeling like their favorite character is being used as a punching bag or a stepping stone or not being written up to their potential. What "should" happen is apart of comics, once a writer suggests characters can do certain things, readers notice when events are contradictory to a characters powers,intellect,physical ability,fighting skill etc.

Different writers have very different views on what a character is and is not capable of. I doubt any Thor writer has approached a story assuming that Thor posessed the sum total of every ability ever demonstrated in his comic book history. Posters on boards like this however, usually do. For a lot of creators Thor pretty much hits things with his hammer, shoots lightning and maybe opens the odd portal somewhere.

My problem isn't the mentality, it's specifically what people use as evidence to suggest that Thor isn't being written well.

@Fifthchild said:

I dont think Marvel have it in for Thor - that just doesnt make any sense. I do think that in the past decade or so the perception of most creators at Marvel regarding who Thor is and the perception held by many of his biggest fans of what he should be has diverged and thats caused a lot of unhappiness. And though there may be many super-duper characters that there is no shame in losing to that doesnt mean that seeing Thor get smacked around by someone really, really powerful every second issue is necessarily an enjoyable experience for a fan.

I agree, it doesn't make sense. What Thor should be is the most powerful Avenger on earth..that's what he is.

I find that very debatable. Both in terms of thats what Thor should be and whether he is or not. Exactly what constitues being "the most powerful" is very hard to pin down but . Is Thor the undisputed "big gun" on a team with Cap, Iron Man etc sure? Is that still true when Hulks around? Maybe. Maybe not. I try not to get too carried away with things like this and i'm of the view that Hulk and Thor are and will be more or less peers in overall power but, based on recent history i can see where people are coming from when they say stuff like this from another board:

"...for decades I would have voted for Thor over the Hulk any day. Mjolnir is just too powerful and too versatile for Hulk to close the gap just on strength, especially when Thor is nearly as strong.

But then a funny thing happened over the past decade. Thor stopped using Mjolnir as anything but a hammer that generates lightning, and Hulk became strong enough to break planets with a footstep. NOW, when I think of how they're written, Thor seems to have a bit of a glass jaw and Hulk is all but impossible to put down. As they're currently portrayed (which is what I tend to go by when evaluating these kinds of fights), Thor wouldn't be able to generate enough force to knock the Hulk out, and all it would take are a few overwhelming blows from the Hulk to knock Thor out.

I hate to say it, but Hulk is now the clear favorite and I can't see a lot of scenarios based on their respective portrayals where Thor could actually win a fight against the Hulk. He's simply not powerful enough anymore. "

Again, i dont necessarily agree, but i can see where hes coming from.

@joshmightbe said:

@cmartin: In the last ten years Hulk has been beaten by, Red Hulk, Abomination, Zeus and U-Foes,

Hulk didnt get beaten by U-Foes, or Abomination in the past 10 years. He did get beaten by Dr Doom recently however.

@Fifthchild: Well I know he has been beaten by several people in the past 10 years I just couldn't remember exactly last night but all those people have defeated him before.

Perhaps but the topic of discussion was the statement that "Hulk gets owned alot more than Thor does even in his own books" which just isnt true IMO, "PIS" or not.

I disagree. I think its easy to lose sight of it if you are deeply ensconced here but this board has a POV that is pretty much totally removed from "comic book reality". On this board Thor is an epic, versatile powerhouse far, far beyond someone Hulk, who's be lucky to beat anyone this side of The Thing. But its never really been like that in the comics.

Different writers have very different views on what a character is and is not capable of. I doubt any Thor writer has approached a story assuming that Thor posessed the sum total of every ability ever demonstrated in his comic book history. Posters on boards like this however, usually do. For a lot of creators Thor pretty much hits things with his hammer, shoots lightning and maybe opens the odd portal somewhere.

I find that very debatable. Both in terms of thats what Thor should be and whether he is or not. Exactly what constitues being "the most powerful" is very hard to pin down but . Is Thor the undisputed "big gun" on a team with Cap, Iron Man etc sure? Is that still true when Hulks around? Maybe. Maybe not. I try not to get too carried away with things like this and i'm of the view that Hulk and Thor are and will be more or less peers in overall power but, based on recent history i can see where people are coming from when they say stuff like this from another board:

"...for decades I would have voted for Thor over the Hulk any day. Mjolnir is just too powerful and too versatile for Hulk to close the gap just on strength, especially when Thor is nearly as strong.

But then a funny thing happened over the past decade. Thor stopped using Mjolnir as anything but a hammer that generates lightning, and Hulk became strong enough to break planets with a footstep. NOW, when I think of how they're written, Thor seems to have a bit of a glass jaw and Hulk is all but impossible to put down. As they're currently portrayed (which is what I tend to go by when evaluating these kinds of fights), Thor wouldn't be able to generate enough force to knock the Hulk out, and all it would take are a few overwhelming blows from the Hulk to knock Thor out.

I hate to say it, but Hulk is now the clear favorite and I can't see a lot of scenarios based on their respective portrayals where Thor could actually win a fight against the Hulk. He's simply not powerful enough anymore. "

Again, i dont necessarily agree, but i can see where hes coming from.

Calm down

@Fifthchild: Thor beat juggy in that issue no question....

juggy no force field, he still had his strength, thor beat him hand to hand, and was about to end it as thor said, at that second the shield returned, jusggy was happy,

that proves hand to hand no forcefield, juggy cannot beat thor hand to hand without his force field.

thor went on latter in the issue to hurl juggy into orbit....

if you are fighting someone and one is in a state they cant put up a defense and seems to be in danger of been knocked out or hurt if the fight is stopped, the person administerig the punishment wins its that simple....

thor won that fight....

@cmartin said:

@Fifthchild: Thor beat juggy in that issue no question....

juggy no force field, he still had his strength, thor beat him hand to hand, and was about to end it as thor said, at that second the shield returned, jusggy was happy,

that proves hand to hand no forcefield, juggy cannot beat thor hand to hand without his force field.

thor went on latter in the issue to hurl juggy into orbit....

if you are fighting someone and one is in a state they cant put up a defense and seems to be in danger of been knocked out or hurt if the fight is stopped, the person administerig the punishment wins its that simple....

thor won that fight....

I think you missed my point:

"I dont think Thor quite won but i see what you are saying. What i am saying is that Thor removing Juggernauts forcefield with Mjolnir and then fighting him hand to hand is not the same thing as Thor almost defeating the Juggernaut hand to hand. Juggernaut - forcefield does not equal Juggernaut and Thor has Mjolnir to thank for that."

@Fifthchild: no i didnt thor used the hammer to remove the shield then it was mano a mano and thor beat him handily, thats how I see it no hammer man to man juggy couldnt handle it... hence why he was happy once the sheld return... and after that he got hurld into orbit...

thor wins IMO

now thors last confrontaton with juggy (john romita) juggy won this was the emergence of the new sissy thor IMO.... juggey bear hugged him to the point of passing out (juggy was amped) because thor was on the verge of passing out juggy wins.. same as in the previous aformentioned clash juggy was on the verge of being knocked out

@cmartin: bull, have you read fear itself, where he Singlehandedly fights and defeats the Thing and The Hulk both powered up with god hammers. plus in chaos war: thor he battles glory who is a gigantic amalgam of alien gods and he blast his way in to the beings body and even tho spirits within glory are ripping into thors very soul he musters enough power to blow glory apart from the inside.

and the rulk argument is over, thor lost once, thor won once (in jeff parkers hulk run) its even and its jeph F$$$$$g Leob who had the rulk punch the watcher.

@movieartman: I read fear itself, wasnt a fan of the fight at all.... just not epic.. thor made the hammer imple thing why couldt he do so for the hulk... why have thor sy i could never beat you..... then have thor smack hulk into orbit then collapse, when hulk defeats thor does he collapse?? just wasnt a clean win.... wasnt a fan of that story

@cmartin said:

@Fifthchild: no i didnt thor used the hammer to remove the shield then it was mano a mano and thor beat him handily, thats how I see it no hammer man to man juggy couldnt handle it... hence why he was happy once the sheld return... and after that he got hurld into orbit...

thor wins IMO

now thors last confrontaton with juggy (john romita) juggy won this was the emergence of the new sissy thor IMO.... juggey bear hugged him to the point of passing out (juggy was amped) because thor was on the verge of passing out juggy wins.. same as in the previous aformentioned clash juggy was on the verge of being knocked out

Sure but Juggernaut without his forcefield clearly wasnt half the man he was normally. If Dr Strange stripped the forcefield from Juggernaut and then Hulk beat the hell out of him i wouldnt say Hulk cleanly and clearly beat the Juggernaut hand 2 hand. Theres a massive asterisk there. Its a bit complicated by the fact that Juggernauts forcefield is hugely inconsistent from writer to writer and has largely been forgotten these days but in that story at least it provided the bulk of his durability.

All I'm saying is that thor is always shown being hulks punching bag when they fight, but thor never gets to do that to hulk. In the old days the fights were much better because they portrayed them as equals more or less. I just want thor to get some better showing against hulk.

god, chill down fanboys.

It was 1 punch, I did not really mind it, but if it turned into a beatdown, then I would. But it was OK.

@Vance Astro said:

@xybernick said:

Especially in AvX. What gives with that?

Nobody was portrayed well in AvX.

I wish I had a t-shirt with these words on them.

@Vance Astro said:

@xybernick said:

Especially in AvX. What gives with that?

Nobody was portrayed well in AvX.

I wish I had a t-shirt with these words on them.

All I'm saying is that thor is always shown being hulks punching bag when they fight, but thor never gets to do that to hulk. In the old days the fights were much better because they portrayed them as equals more or less. I just want thor to get some better showing against hulk.

@TheGodofThunder:

can you or somebody post this picture

@Vance Astro said:

@DarkDay said:

@Vance Astro said:

@xybernick said:

Especially in AvX. What gives with that?

Nobody was portrayed well in AvX.

I wish I had a t-shirt with these words on them.

LOL.

@TheGodofThunder said:

All I'm saying is that thor is always shown being hulks punching bag when they fight, but thor never gets to do that to hulk. In the old days the fights were much better because they portrayed them as equals more or less. I just want thor to get some better showing against hulk.

They were never really equals though. Thor was always out of his league. The funny part is they would let less powerful characters than Thor like Black Bolt, Iron Man & Namor defeat the Hulk.

100% Agree on this, its pathetic sometimes.

@Vance Astro: Thor out of his league? Not at all. How do you make this assumption?

@Vance Astro: Thor out of his league? Not at all. How do you make this assumption?

@Vance Astro: Hahahahaha, never mind. When you said thor was always out of his league, I thought you meant hulk was better. I started reading your response and got to the flying part and was like....uh...no, hahahahaha

@Vance Astro: Hahahahaha, never mind. When you said thor was always out of his league, I thought you meant hulk was better. I started reading your response and got to the flying part and was like....uh...no, hahahahaha

@Vance Astro: I haven't read the issue. It's just the overall tone of the image. Thor punches hulk and he shrugs it off. Hulk punches thor and the hammer goes flying and so does he. Just doesn't seem to bode well. Yeah, I'm not sure I'm happy about that part.

yep see that hammer flying out his hand .. watch marvel make hulk beat the tar out of thor for the 100th time.... great rivalry marvel

Disgrace is a pretty strong word, not sure if I agree with it. I always feel like the odd one out in these discussions, because right off the bat I think if you want a real and accurate answer, acknowledge we are dealing with fictional characters and talk about the creative teams and talent involved. Hickman isn't a super massive Thor fan, at least not in the way some other writers are or some fans would like him to be. Thor looking good in a powerful sense won't be a priority for him, he may not even sincerely view Thor the same way other writers may have, he had an upset Ben Grimm knock Thor down pretty easy (where as a writer like Oeming might have had Thor no sell) - If one wants Thor to be written a certain way? Identify and support writers that write him that way would be my advice, looking at the character from the in story pov won't really help the characters (or fans) future out.

@SC: You're totally right.

watch marvel make hulk beat the tar out of thor for the 100th time.... great rivalry marvel

@Vance Astro said:

@TheGodofThunder said:

So what's the rest of it? What happened? Why did Hulk punch Thor? You know Marvel claimed to be syncing their films up to their comics and animated series? They are featuring the films roster on the cover and in the previews. I wonder if this was done because Hulk punched Thor in the film.

One of the villians, I forget her name, convinced Hulk that Thor thought he was stronger and a better warrior than Hulk ever was. Something like that.

@Vance Astro said:

@cmartin said:

watch marvel make hulk beat the tar out of thor for the 100th time.... great rivalry marvel

When has Hulk EVER done that for this to make any sense?

all the time,

...

all the time,

...

@Vance Astro: this must be an illusion, a figment of my imagination or magic trick then

please dont make me post more....

and lets not forget hulk habeaten the crap out of thor everytime on screen..... no ONCE has thor beaten him

he beat thor to death on hulk vs thor....

lift his hammer and koed thor in ultimate avengers

beat thor in avengers the move, punched him like a toy...

please dont retort with sematics.....

why do you think this thread was made, thor fans are worried thor will get more beatings as he has been over the pass 2 decades from hulk

@Vance Astro: this must be an illusion, a figment of my imagination or magic trick then

please dont make me post more....

and lets not forget hulk habeaten the crap out of thor everytime on screen..... no ONCE has thor beaten him

he beat thor to death on hulk vs thor....

lift his hammer and koed thor in ultimate avengers

beat thor in avengers the move, punched him like a toy...

please dont retort with sematics.....

beat thor in avengers the move, punched him like a toy...

why do you think this thread was made

@cmartin: I wholeheartedly believe thor was shown to be the better in the avengers movie.

@Vance Astro: The first scan you guys are referring to I believe is canon. It's from Hulk: Let the Battle Begin. We just don't know the specifics of everything going on, what versions, where it takes place in continuity etc.

@Vance Astro: The first scan you guys are referring to I believe is canon. It's from Hulk: Let the Battle Begin. We just don't know the specifics of everything going on, what versions, where it takes place in continuity etc.

@Vance Astro: It is a flashback issue with in a flashback (sort of). I just don't think it was ever specified where it fits in continuity cause the issue itself is only about 2-3 years old and Thor is in his classic outfit which wouldn't add up anyway if it was recent even back in 2010 when he had his silver armor. It's a one shot where Banner wakes up in the desert and is trying to remember his past few days, which then flashbacks not so far off in distant past where he was fighting Thor and the Wrecking Crew. It's kind of like a lost story untold kind of issue.

Hulk Let the Battle Begin was written by Jesse Blaze Snider. A confessed Hulk fanboy who did a lot of defending of his story after he was grilled on it. Its a bit hard to view it as a really bad showing of Thor when the writer himself says Hulk left the fight before it was over, half the story of Thor beating Hulk around was cut due to page limit, and that he would write a similar story with Thor in Hulks position. Its a great story for a Hulk fan the same way the Kevin Grevioux Thor could kill the Hulk story could be for a Thor fan. Both characters have writers that sway a bit towards one character more than the other. Red Hulk? He beat Hulk like Thor except Loeb has gone on the record Thor was holding back because he thought it was green Hulk. Thor only really looks bad in that series if you ignore context.

@Vance Astro: Nice explanations.

@TheGodofThunder: really?

@Vance Astro: all of those comics are 616 i have all of them

now the movies id prefer not to have to post them but lets use our heads, EVERY single confrontation on screen hulk has battered thor badly..... maybe aside from the incredible hulk cartoon when the fought it was a draw there

i think the message from marvel is clear hulk vs thor thor is beaten to near death, ultimate aventers thor is knocked out, avegers movie hulk slaps thor around like a puppy... asa thor fan knowing what thor truly is these scenarios are embarassing and shows me marvel have no regard for thor fans in regard to this "rivalry"

I actually broke the hulk vs thor dvd when i watched it first took it out of the dvd player and snapped i, with marvel its all about popularity, wolverine IMO beat the hulk in that the hulk v wolverine

yet thor is HUmiliated, thor hit hulk 3 times in that movie hulk smashed him over 40..... screw marvel

@cmartin: yet thor is HUmiliated, thor hit hulk 3 times in that movie hulk smashed him over 40..... screw marvel\

Good point.

Are people still whining about this? Jeezus!

Here's the age old problem with the Thor vs Hulk match up. Hulk hits Thor and tries to kill him. Thor is just trying to calm him down and not kill the bastard. Hulk smashes and yells, trying his best to kill him. Thor weathers the storm and gives it right back to the Jade Giant until the fight is broken up.

People think that Hulk just destroyed Thor. Comic book fans and logical people realize that Thor took Hulk's best and is still upright. Fans know that Thor's fought tougher, smarter, and more powerful opponents that Hulk and has won.

 i have all of them

i think the message from marvel is clear hulk vs thor thor is beaten to near death, ultimate aventers thor is knocked out, avegers movie hulk slaps thor around like a puppy... asa thor fan knowing what thor truly is these scenarios are embarassing and shows me marvel have no regard for thor fans in regard to this "rivalry"

@Vance Astro: Nice explanations.