Why I Still Don't Love the New 52

Posted by cbishop (6935 posts) - - Show Bio
#DateWelcome to my blog:Choose Your View:Attached to Forum:Back/ Next
3003/09/12Why I Still Don't Love the New 52(Blog) (Forum)DC Comics(Back) (Next)

I haven't liked the idea of the New 52 from the beginning, and waited until it had been rolling for 4 months, before picking up anything. I've picked up several #1's at this point, and I haven't been all that impressed. I liked Nightwing enough to add it to my list, but really, that's only because I collected the previous series. I'm interested to read the Huntress TPB, but that's only after reading about the mini-series on Comicvine. I've picked up first issues of favorite characters and teams, but haven't seen anything to stand up and cheer about. I'd like to see Blackhawks succeed, just because I've always wanted to see that concept reinvented enough to appeal to a new audience. I don't know if this book is going to do that or not, but I'm glad to see the attempt.

Overall though, I think DC is working against themselves. What works for the Big Two is that there is years and years of history to their characters, readers feel like they know them, and keep coming back to see and learn more about their favorite characters. What works against newer companies like Image, Dark Horse, and Dynamite (although they've been around awhile now, they are still newer than DC & Marvel) is the lack of history or cohesive universe. Even though some of their books are excellent, they suffer, because the companies have to manufacture "history," by introducing new characters that "have been around since World War II." If they cannot successfully make the average superhero reader buy into that, then those readers are left feeling like they are reading about someone they don't know, whose history feels fake.

DC has done that with this reboot. With COIE & Zero Hour, even though they reinvented the characters after both of those events, there was always some carryover, and a question of just how much had really changed. There's NO question with the New 52 - things have changed, and these are not the characters we knew. Superman - our "strange visitor from another planet" - is now just a "stranger visiting from another planet." Batman's history supposedly remains untouched, but there's already problems with that, because how old is he in relation to the rest of the JLA? If Dick is an adult, and still fought beside Batman as Robin, then was he still a Teen Titan? How does that work when Cyborg's history is being rewritten for him to have joined the JLA? If Dick was still a Teen Titan, then the rest of the original team are also adults, and that means their mentors should be older than them, and more established as heroes - not just now forming the Justice League, pretty much unknown to each other. There are already things that don't make sense here, and I don't think that's going to get better.

Imagine that someone close to you has been in an accident, and goes to the hospital. When you go to see them, they don't remember you at all, and they can't do anything about it except move forward. So now, all of your memories of them, while still important to you, are invalid as far as this person is concerned, because they are just not the same person. You might still love them, because they are the same person, but if the doctor told you that there was no hope this person was going to get their original memories back and be the person you knew, you would have to have the patience of a saint to stay with them, even though they are, for all intents and purposes, a new person. It's still possible though, because in real life, they really are the same person.

That's not so here, in the New 52. They did this in the 1960's, rebooting the characters from the name - reinventing everything. They changed the costumes, the histories, the locations, the supporting casts, everything. It wasn't until older fans started saying, "What about the original Superman/Flash/Green Lantern/etc," that DC introduced the Golden Age characters, via Earth 2. That's almost what they've done here, except they've kept the characters' looks (in most cases). It's that "keeping the look" that is going to work against them most, because no matter how much they change the story, and no matter how good the new story is, there will still be people saying, "But he still looks like Superman, so when is [missing story element x] coming back?"

From the first solicitations, I wasn't interested in the New 52. I thought the new concepts sounded boring. I was truly shocked to find that after thirty-five years of collecting, I had absolutely zero interest in this reboot. I finally gave them a chance, because well, that's what's here - may as well see if there's something I can like about it. The answer was yes, there is, but honestly, it's not with the same level of investment I had in the previous characters. It's hard to be vested in clones - they have the same look, the same name, but not the same history. The only way to do that is to enjoy them from here, and hope that they turn out to be interesting, like their namesakes were.

Especially when you don't know for sure if this is really going to be permanent. I mean, Marvel said Heroes Reborn was going to be permanent too, but flipped on that pretty quickly. Will DC do the same, and undo Flashpoint? Or will they try to find a way to meld the best elements of the old and new? At the moment, I remain unconvinced that this is permanent. Part of this change was certainly to create 52 new first issues, throwing these ideas against the wall of readers, and seeing what sticks. The stuff that didn't they scrape up off the sidewalk and cart away, and replace with another new idea for us to try. I don't think that makes for a sustainable new universe, and it kind of feels like babysitters trying to entertain a crying baby. "Look! Look! Deadman!... No? Okay, okay, look, Hawk & Dove!... No? Okay, Aquaman! Oh, you like Aquaman? Good, good, how 'bout Deathstroke? Aw, c'mon, don't cry. Look, look, Wonder Woman!..."

The biggest change by far is Superman, and that seems to have an awful lot to do with the fact that they have to change some of the original elements by 2013, due to the lawsuit that nobody wants to talk about and wishes would go away. I would venture a guess that whether or not the New 52 remains new canon or not depends largely on whether DC can finally convince the creators' families to give up their interests in the character, so they can go back to Superman's original roots. If not, then look for the changes in Superman and the rest of the New 52 to remain, and try to see if there's something you can like about it. For now, I don't feel completely convinced this is going to work, but as a fan of comics as a whole, I certainly remain willing to be wrong.

*******

Back/ Next#DateWhich blog will it be:Choose Your View:Attached to Forum:
Back:2902/22/12Hate the Rainbow(Blog) (Forum) (List)Sinestro Corps
Next:3106/14/12Was Iron Maniac a Back Door for Civil War?(Blog) (Forum)Iron Maniac

*******

Want more blogs?ViewTheIndex
Full Blog Index:(numerical order)(alphabetical order)(categorized: [numerically] [alphabetically])

Thanks again!

#1 Posted by azza04 (1503 posts) - - Show Bio

Same feeling, I got mixed feelings about the New 52, the Superman title has been such a let down. Action Comics has been ok, the story isn't to bad but it still doesn't feel quite right. I, Vampire is really cool story in the new 52 even if it would have been better taking place in a seperate universe.

#2 Posted by cbishop (6935 posts) - - Show Bio
@azza04: Thanks, azza04!  I haven't read I, Vampire.  While I thought it was cool to see that title revived, titles like that, Frankenstein, Agent of SHADE, and several others, I don't expect to last very long.  I'm really not sure why DC thought those titles would work.  At the very least, I would have thought that the Frankenstein book would have been named Creature Commandos.  It's possible that they're using the New 52 releases to preserve their rights to some titles, kind of like when they do a series of one shots with different titles, for the same purpose.
#3 Posted by GamerGeek360 (251 posts) - - Show Bio

I see where you're coming from. As a new(ish) reader though, I can't really say I have strong feelings against it. My main interests are Batman and Green Lantern and, although there are changes, they seem to be the most un-touched of the group. It may just be something that needs to get a bit of a rolling start for you, I don't know. I hope you come to enjoy it though since I feel it's not going anywhere.

Also, not to burst your bubble, but Blackhawks is done after issue 8.

#4 Posted by cbishop (6935 posts) - - Show Bio
@GamerGeek360: Yeah, they pretty much said from the beginning they weren't going to touch Batman very much, and GL followed, because they just had so much going on at the time, like the end of Blackest Night, and the movie coming out.  It made sense to leave those two alone, but eventually, that's going to cause cracks in this new continuity.  You're most likely right though - The New 52 is probably not going anywhere. 
 
As for the Blackhawks, they were really a product of WW2, and that's the only era where they were ever going to carry their own book for very long.  I didn't figure the new series would last long, but my hope was that it would spark enough interest in the concept to continue seeing them around the DCU.  In today's DC, I think the Blackhawks would be much better served as supporting players - something almost in the vein of Marvel's SHIELD.  I guess for me, it's just that the originals were always portrayed as so noble, it would be nice to see some cling to that in the new DCU. <shrugs> By no means a deal breaker if they don't do it - just  a fond wish of mine. 
 
Enjoying the New 52? <sigh> I don't know.  I'm interested in reading more, as the trades start coming out, but finances still hamper me on current comics.  This reboot is definitely aimed at the new-ish reader like yourself, and business wise, that's a smart move on DC's part that seems to be doing very well for them.  I've got a long view on the comics industry though, and for the moment, I still question whether DC can sustain this much change to the characters.  It will probably endure just fine, but we'll see.
#5 Posted by Darkmount1 (1267 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a [para]phrase that can be applied to any form of entertainment:

"If the movie stinks (and you know it), just don't go."

#6 Posted by cbishop (6935 posts) - - Show Bio

@Darkmount1 said:

This is a [para]phrase that can be applied to any form of entertainment:

"If the movie stinks (and you know it), just don't go."

Yes, unlike a movie though, a comic has a chance from month-to-month to get better. Since DC has the characters that I like most, I keep hoping that the New 52 will get better. So far, I've picked up some random issues just to satisfy my curiosity. I'm getting the 8-issue Hawk & Dove series, just because it's kind of like that horrible train wreck you can't take your eyes off of, and I'm buying Nightwing. Other than that, I'm not supporting the new DC much at all. Anything else I buy will likely be in TPB form - like the Huntress mini.

#7 Posted by Darkmount1 (1267 posts) - - Show Bio

@cbishop: Ah, and THAT'S where we differ--I don't even read that many modern comics, because they've become nothing but a bunch of cinematic mags that drag on and on. It's why I primarily read the older material from varying decades. (I never got into comics till '08.)

#8 Posted by cbishop (6935 posts) - - Show Bio

@Darkmount1 said:

@cbishop: Ah, and THAT'S where we differ--I don't even read that many modern comics, because they've become nothing but a bunch of cinematic mags that drag on and on. It's why I primarily read the older material from varying decades. (I never got into comics till '08.)

I like to keep up with the current stuff as much as possible, but I completely understand the attraction to the older stuff. I've got 35 years of fandom to my name, but in the last few years, I haven't been able to afford the new stuff very much, so I've been reading some of the old stuff that I already have. There's a certain amount of charm to reading something you know came to an end. It relieves that collector fever, and allows you to just enjoy it for what it is, knowing that clamoring for more will only get you to the last issue, and that's going to be it.

I realized too that as much as I loved books like New Teen Titans and New Mutants in the 80's, I usually didn't read them more than once. Oh, I might get bored at some point, stack up a bunch of issues, and read them until I got tired of it, but generally, I didn't go back to the superhero issues unless I was looking for a particular thing. The ones I really went back to over and over again were those random issues of Richie Rich, Pink Panther, Underdog, or Road Runner, most of which I probably got at the end of a visit to the dentist. There was something about those comics, where they had three or four stories an issue, plus a few one page gag strips, a text page, and probably some games - I used to read those a dozen times easy.

Now, I've picked up several of the black and white Showcase Presents collections, and I'm loving 'em for those same reasons. I read 'em a little at a time, whenever I have a few spare minutes, put 'em down when I get to the end of one of those short stories, and come back to 'em later. Green Arrow, Superman, Green Lantern, Dial "H" For Hero, The War That Time Forgot... great fun.

The thing is, while I truly enjoy those stories, I don't really want to return to that silliness. I like the modern stories - I like the deeper characterization. My main problem with the current stuff is every time it starts getting good, they go and reboot it. I'd like to see comics go generational, where characters grow old and die, and are replaced by the next generation, but I realize I'm probably in the minority on that, so I go with what's there. I've been reading comics so long, I just want to keep reading good stories. I like reading the old stuff - especially if it's something I haven't read yet (and there's plenty of that) - but I like reading new stuff too.

#9 Posted by Darkmount1 (1267 posts) - - Show Bio

@cbishop: I have the Dial H for Hero one, and now I can see where Ben 10's creators got their ideas.

My form of collecting is a little more restrained: I only collect and read 1st issues, milestones (such as first character appearances), the occasional mini or one-shot, certain stories or ones that stick out (like the Don McGregor/Marshall Rogers Spider-Man story "Something about a Gun"), and final issues. I also get TPB's of older stories.

#10 Posted by jsphsmth (1136 posts) - - Show Bio

I am confused. You state that you have only picked up several of the first issues, yet you are passing judgement on the entire reboot? Do you feel that by reading 7 issues out of 312 total issues (for the first six months worth of ongoing series) that you can make an accurate judgement?

#11 Posted by cbishop (6935 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsphsmth said:

I am confused. You state that you have only picked up several of the first issues, yet you are passing judgement on the entire reboot? Do you feel that by reading 7 issues out of 312 total issues (for the first six months worth of ongoing series) that you can make an accurate judgement?

Yes. It's true that I have not read everything to do with the reboot. I have kept up with the solicitations, and I have read much about the reboot titles, online. After 35 years of collecting, I feel I have a pretty decent sense for what's crud and what's not. Much of this reboot is crud, and I don't have to read beyond solicitations and synopses to see that. As I said in the blog though, I am willing to be proven wrong. What I didn't say in the blog (and maybe should have) is that I don't think I will be proven wrong for two to four years.

I don't think DC can sustain 52 titles on the market. Marvel currently has a bunch of titles on the market, but they print to order - going back to press if demand exceeds initial orders (like the much criticized debacle with Captain America #25). DC hasn't quite embraced that model. Right now, they're throwing 52 titles a month at us, trying to see what sells, knowing they can count on the first two or three months of anything new to draw inflated sales, up to six or eight months for those willing to give it a chance for the first story arc, and that the real numbers are reflected after that. Once they've launched enough new titles to find 18-25 series that will sustain sales to their liking, there will be no more 52 titles a month. As much as I hate to admit it, online comics are going to make that impossible.

I mean, c'mon, Hawk & Dove? I'm only buying the full eight issues of that series from sheer stubborness. It's not a good comic, and I love those two characters. DC knew that wasn't going to last. At the least, they were hoping to capture a few dollars from the curious and the nostalgia junkies like me, and at best, they were hoping to distract Rob Liefeld from his Image work, because he's kind of known for falling apart schedule wise, when he's got too many projects on his plate. Hawk & Dove was not something they expected to sustain sales for the long haul. (P.S. After this series, I don't so much love H&D anymore.)

There have yet to be any surprises, as far as the better sellers. Don't point to Animal Man or Swamp Thing - they sold well as Vertigo books also. A surprise hit would have been Frankenstein: Agent of SHADE, or alas, Blackhawks. It's no surprise that people are liking Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, or Teen Titans. Pretty much, the titles that sold well before the New 52 are the ones that sell well now (and Bats and GL have pretty much kept their pre-New 52 history, so those aren't really good arguments for the New 52).

Getting back to my point though: DC is throwing 52 titles a month at buyers - rotating out bad or temporary sellers for new ones - because they are looking for new titles outside of the regulars that will sustain those same kinds of numbers as the regulars. I think it will take them two to four years to find a sales roster they are happy with. Once they have found that, then I think we'll start to see better stories, and by then, these rebooted characters may not feel like such "strangers." Yeah, we'll see some decent stories in the meantime, but overall, yes, I feel qualified to say the New 52 largely blows chunks, and I feel absolutely no stress in saying that I'm trade-waiting the better stories.

#12 Posted by Primmaster64 (21137 posts) - - Show Bio

I like Action Comics...But yeah, the other Superman titles have been meh.

#13 Posted by cbishop (6935 posts) - - Show Bio

@Darkmount1 said:

@cbishop: I have the Dial H for Hero one, and now I can see where Ben 10's creators got their ideas.

My form of collecting is a little more restrained: I only collect and read 1st issues, milestones (such as first character appearances), the occasional mini or one-shot, certain stories or ones that stick out (like the Don McGregor/Marshall Rogers Spider-Man story "Something about a Gun"), and final issues. I also get TPB's of older stories.

Nothing wrong with that, although I'm sad to say that you may be in the majority now, with those buying habits. That's just guessing though.

#14 Posted by cbishop (6935 posts) - - Show Bio

@Primmaster64 said:

I like Action Comics...But yeah, the other Superman titles have been meh.

And that's from a pretty big Super-fan, y'all. ...I think Superman needs a lot of work anyway, nevermind the reboot version, but that's a whole other blog.

#15 Posted by Darkmount1 (1267 posts) - - Show Bio

@cbishop: What do you mean by 'majority'?? A lot of the books I get are ones I dig through the clearance racks at Half Price Books--I comic from there is only $0.25. And I try to get lucky.

#16 Posted by cbishop (6935 posts) - - Show Bio

@Darkmount1: I was sort of vague, wasn't I? I wasn't so much referring specifically to what you buy, as to the fact that you're not buying much current stuff. I think that's becoming the majority rule, as many fans are downloading their comics (many for free), and I think that's only going to increase, as much as I hate to think of what that's going to do to the print medium of comics.

#17 Posted by Darkmount1 (1267 posts) - - Show Bio

@cbishop: Oy, I do NOT want anything to happen to the print comics sector outside them switching to recyclable paper.

#18 Posted by cbishop (6935 posts) - - Show Bio

@Darkmount1 said:

@cbishop: Oy, I do NOT want anything to happen to the print comics sector outside them switching to recyclable paper.

Ummm... all paper is recyclable. :^/

I know, I know: you meant "recycled." I don't really agree though. Recycled paper for receipts is what makes a receipt so hard to write on sometimes. I don't want to see printing issues on my comics' paper. Now supporting reforestation efforts for future paper needs, that I can get behind.

#19 Posted by Darkmount1 (1267 posts) - - Show Bio

@cbishop: Same here. Tree Farms ought to be the way to go.

#20 Posted by cbishop (6935 posts) - - Show Bio

@Darkmount1: Agreed. :)

#21 Posted by TheGoldenOne (38849 posts) - - Show Bio
@Primmaster64 said:
I like Action Comics...But yeah, the other Superman titles have been meh.
Action Comics is meh >__>
#22 Posted by Primmaster64 (21137 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheGoldenOne: YOU ARE MEH!
 
@cbishop
Sorry to say...But choosing George Perez to write a revamped Supes was a bad move
#23 Posted by TheGoldenOne (38849 posts) - - Show Bio
@Primmaster64: Lol :P
#24 Posted by jsphsmth (1136 posts) - - Show Bio

@cbishop: Reaing a solicitation does not tell you about the quality or story or a comic. That is like saying that you can judge a trip to the Grand Canyon by reading a map of Arizona.

As someone who has been reading comics for close to 40 years and someone who has read the first five months of all 52 ongoing series, I can accurately tell you that the reboot was amazing. It has opened the doors to some truly great storytelling.

#25 Posted by cbishop (6935 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsphsmth said:

@cbishop: Reaing a solicitation does not tell you about the quality or story or a comic. That is like saying that you can judge a trip to the Grand Canyon by reading a map of Arizona.

As someone who has been reading comics for close to 40 years and someone who has read the first five months of all 52 ongoing series, I can accurately tell you that the reboot was amazing. It has opened the doors to some truly great storytelling.

I don't think that analogy really matches up, but you are entitled to your opinion, and I mine. Solicitaions are kind of like movie previews: the less they tell you about the plot, the less likely they are to be any good. If they can't tell me anything about the story to grab my interest, but instead rely on telling me who wrote/ drew it, and how many variant covers it has, etc., it's likely crud. The New 52 solicitations left me completely cold, and I haven't seen very much to change that. I'm glad you are enjoying the reboot, and I hope many others are as well, because I'd hate to see DC Comics crap out. I for one have not been impressed... but I'm waiting to be. ;)

#26 Posted by jsphsmth (1136 posts) - - Show Bio

Correct. You are entitled to your opinion, but how you can form an opinion about the DCnU by only reading seven comics is beyond me. It seems to me that you have an ax to grind with DC. I can only hope that people don't read this blog or if they do, they don't avoid the rather enjoyable and successful reboot because of your "opinion."

#27 Posted by cbishop (6935 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsphsmth said:

Correct. You are entitled to your opinion, but how you can form an opinion about the DCnU by only reading seven comics is beyond me. It seems to me that you have an ax to grind with DC. I can only hope that people don't read this blog or if they do, they don't avoid the rather enjoyable and successful reboot because of your "opinion."

First: I didn't say "seven," I said "several" - not the same thing. Have I read 312? No.

Second: No, I do not have an "ax to grind with DC." I just personally don't think this reboot will be completely successful, and I don't think all of the ideas are good ones. I understand why they rebooted, from a business standpoint, but when you say, "Okay, we're changing this, but not that," you're already screwing up your reboot.

I have no "ax to grind" with you, either... except that putting "opinion" in quotes like that is kind of silly. It actually is my opinion. You put things in quotes like that when they're not true, like Stormin' Norman saying: Yes, Saddam Hussein is a "great" leader. I formed my opinion based on the several comics I read, plus years of reading comics, and years of correctly predicting what would and wouldn't work in superhero comics. That doesn't mean that I am correct every time - I am happily surprised by some things... may this be one of them, because outside of Erik Larsen's Savage Dragon, I prefer DC to almost anything else.

Last: I don't expect to sway anyone's opinion with my blog. It's just that: my blog. I'm sharing my opinion, and looking for others' comments. Thanks for yours. Again: I'm glad you are enjoying it, more power to you.

#28 Posted by OmegaHans (205 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with everything said here.

#29 Posted by cbishop (6935 posts) - - Show Bio

@OmegaHans said:

I agree with everything said here.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. :) It still remains to be seen which way the New 52 goes. Marvel's Heroes Reborn went on 13 months before they restored the status quo, and they claimed that was going to be permanent. We are a couple months away from the end of the New 52's first year. Since they have solicited beyond that, we already know they will go beyond a year (or even 13 months). I want to say that year two will be telling, but they're still soliciting new waves of titles. As long as they're putting #1's out there, they are going to inflate their sales. Maybe that's their plan. <shrugs> I've found a couple things to like in the New 52 since I wrote this blog, but I'm still not blown away by the majority.

#30 Posted by Thorion88 (310 posts) - - Show Bio

I actually agree with you cbishop. Though I'm expecting regardless of what DC says, we're going to see more Pre-Flashpoint DCU elements. Like Characters, places, etc. Popping up once more just a similar situation with COIE after it was said and done Pre-COIE elements started resurfacing once more in the DCU.

#31 Posted by capelesscrusader (103 posts) - - Show Bio

@cbishop: If you're in the minority on wanting a universe that legitimately ages with its readers, then I'm there with you. That would be the best way to keep readers interested as they get older, and also draw in new ones.

"See, Johnny? When I was a boy, PowerKid was PowerMan's sidekick, and now he's PowerMan and HIS son is PowerKid. Guess who we're going to be for Halloween?"

#32 Edited by cbishop (6935 posts) - - Show Bio

@Thorion88 said:

I actually agree with you cbishop. Though I'm expecting regardless of what DC says, we're going to see more Pre-Flashpoint DCU elements. Like Characters, places, etc. Popping up once more just a similar situation with COIE after it was said and done Pre-COIE elements started resurfacing once more in the DCU.

I think it's kind of inevitable. Most of today's creators grew up with the characters they are rebooting, and I just don't think they can resist slipping in a little fan-fic moment, rewriting that element they loved. If this were a new universe, they would have to do what they did in the 1960's, and reinvent from the name up - complete redesigns of characters, and completed concept changes. The thing is: they can't. They've got to take what existed pre-New 52, and make it work for current fans. So they can trash the histories, but they've got to use the same character - that kind of makes my brain hurt. If they were doing complete reinvention, the New 52 would be much closer to Tangent or Just Imagine.

@capelesscrusader said:

@cbishop: If you're in the minority on wanting a universe that legitimately ages with its readers, then I'm there with you. That would be the best way to keep readers interested as they get older, and also draw in new ones.

"See, Johnny? When I was a boy, PowerKid was PowerMan's sidekick, and now he's PowerMan and HIS son is PowerKid. Guess who we're going to be for Halloween?"

I don't just want to see just legacy characters though. I want to see a cohesive timeline. Some characters only work well in World War II... like the Blackhawks. I think like anything military, the Blackhawks could be made to work in the present, but they worked best as a Nazi fighting unit in WWII. As did Easy Company, GI Robot, Unknown Soldier, Sgt Rock and The War That Time Forgot. Pretty much any character written for the WWII era of stories works better in that era, and that includes the JSA (as much as I loved the 1999 JSA series).

New Teen Titans worked better in the 1980's. Outsiders was a cool title, but half the team was missing, and they really were outsiders, with Young Justice taking up the JLA sidekick roles. With a cohesive timeline, that didn't have to happen. YJ would have been the new Titans, and the Titans would have been the Justice League, and the Justice League would have been dead, retired, or at least out of the Justice League.

There's so many ways DC could have done that. Generations was an interesting take on what they could have done to have both generational continuity and still have the original Batman & Superman throughout.

They didn't even have to do that though. They could have made so many connections with generational storytelling, and had so many more viable, marketable characters. It's something I've given a great deal of thought to over the years, and before this gets to unwieldy blog length, let's just leave it at that.

#33 Posted by KainScion (2973 posts) - - Show Bio

4 robins in 5 years. pfff. yeah they havent touched batman all that much.

#34 Posted by RoboShark (1208 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm liking it, there's a lot of characters that I am reading that I wouldn't have took a chance on pre-52.

#35 Posted by cbishop (6935 posts) - - Show Bio

@KainScion said:

4 robins in 5 years. pfff. yeah they havent touched batman all that much.

Well, I was going with the official line, that they haven't changed much with Batman. ;)

@RoboShark said:

I'm liking it, there's a lot of characters that I am reading that I wouldn't have took a chance on pre-52.

And that's okay. I think that's part of what DC wants with the New 52 - is for folks to check out characters they wouldn't have before. I've checked out a few things, but not many - as much because of lack of finances, as lack of interest. I can see asking my library to pick up some of the trades.

#36 Posted by RoboShark (1208 posts) - - Show Bio

Before really I was only reading Batman, Justice League (rarely), Secret Six, and American Vampire if you count that as DC.

#37 Edited by OmegaHans (205 posts) - - Show Bio

@cbishop said:

Thanks for the vote of confidence. :) It still remains to be seen which way the New 52 goes. Marvel's Heroes Reborn went on 13 months before they restored the status quo, and they claimed that was going to be permanent. We are a couple months away from the end of the New 52's first year. Since they have solicited beyond that, we already know they will go beyond a year (or even 13 months). I want to say that year two will be telling, but they're still soliciting new waves of titles. As long as they're putting #1's out there, they are going to inflate their sales. Maybe that's their plan. <shrugs> I've found a couple things to like in the New 52 since I wrote this blog, but I'm still not blown away by the majority.

Speaking of Marvel, I've had a funny feeling that they may out of the blue pull a DC and attempt to try a retcon of their universe AGAIN after A v XM, and for two hunches that I'd like to express. 1, because DC managed to outsell them with this type of marketing, and 2, because Disney would most likely support such a decision. What would you think if this happened?

.

#38 Posted by cbishop (6935 posts) - - Show Bio

@RoboShark said:

Before really I was only reading Batman, Justice League (rarely), Secret Six, and American Vampire if you count that as DC.

I bought the first few issues of Secret Six, liked it, but didn't have the money to continue it. American Vampire, I figure I'll get around to reading in TPB eventually.

@OmegaHans said:

Speaking of Marvel, I've had a funny feeling that they may out of the blue pull a DC and attempt to try a retcon of their universe AGAIN after A v XM, and for two hunches that I'd like to express. 1, because DC managed to outsell them with this type of marketing, and 2, because Disney would most likely support such a decision. What would you think if this happened?

Y'know, honestly, I don't have anything against Marvel, but I don't read any of their books right now. The universe is event-driven, and has been for some time. I got frustrated with events and quit reading them when Countdown reached #0, and turned out to be an ad for coming titles, and when Captain America's death got shifted from the end of Civil War to the pages of Captain America. I gave Marvel a little more, reading some of Decimation in TPB, and buying the first issue of Secret Invasion. After SI #1, I just said, "Nope, won't do it." I like a good event, and will likely catch up with these in TPB at some point, if I run across them discounted somewhere (and ever have fun money again). All this is lead-in to answering your question tho'.

Marvel's events have been taking them down an increasingly darker and darker path, which is what was going on with DC, before they rebooted. I have mixed feelings about this with both companies. It can be epic, if done right, but somewhere along the way, it seems like they write themselves into a corner, and suddenly have this event they can't get out of - having forced themselves into a story that while cool, isn't one anybody really wants to see when it comes down to it. I mean, why do we want to see heroes fight heroes? I want to see 'em beatin' on badguys.

They've had the chance to organically reboot their universe a few times, with Age of Apocalypse, Onslaught creating the Heroes Reborn universe, and most recently with House of M. Since they didn't, and since their stories have gotten so dark with hero on hero fighting, I think that they'd now have to be looking at DC, and seriously considering a New 52 type reboot. Where do you go after AvX? Apparently, the answer is "no more Avengers." I don't know if that means they get wiped out, but if they keep going this route, that is the eventual end to one of these fights. Do they want to get that far?

<sigh> ...<thinking>... Y'know, I'd be a little disappointed if Marvel does this too. It would probably be okay for new readers, and with the success of Marvel movies, a fresh continuity might even make sense for them, but I don't want to see DC & Marvel doing this at the same time. <shrugs> That's just me tho' - takes me a little bit to adjust to change. While nostalgic for pre-COIE stories, I liked the changes after COIE, in the 80's. I didn't mind the two that followed that, because all it seemed to do was move the origins forward to the then-current time. DC's currently completely reworking everything, and I hate it.

...And I'm just now realizing that it's not so much that I hate the stories. I hate that they blindsided everyone with it. Final Crisis was supposed to be "the last crisis," and then suddenly, there's Flashpoint, and "heyyy, we're changing our universe again!" So if Marvel could maybe do it without blindsiding everyone, perhaps it would not only be good, but fun?

#39 Posted by Agypt2020 (59 posts) - - Show Bio

What DC should had done with the New 52 was start from the day after Flash Point new stories and new age call it the Millennium Age or whatever, leave the characters' histories alone and just go back to original concepts.

#40 Posted by cbishop (6935 posts) - - Show Bio

@Agypt2020 said:

What DC should had done with the New 52 was start from the day after Flash Point new stories and new age call it the Millennium Age or whatever, leave the characters' histories alone and just go back to original concepts.

Wellll, I dunno. I think pre-Flashpoint worked just fine, but what they were saying is that it wasn't working, sales wise. Comics are fun, but they're still a business, so if the sales aren't working, they've got to change something. I think what they've done is drastic, but if they're going to go that far, why not go farther? If it were me, I'd have changed a lot of things around, even associating names with different characters, rearranging villains and heroes, and all kinds of stuff.

One for instance - something I posted in another blog - I'd have made Alan Scot the only Green Lantern, and made the space GL's and GL Corps over into Starman and the Star Corps. Things like that. If they're going to reinvent, put some thought into it. Reintroducing the same characters with slightly different costumes and saying, "History starts now" isn't doing much... especially when Batman and GL's history are "intact" - and there's already problems with that.

There's a part of me that believes this post-Flashpoint universe is not a permanent thing, but DC is working really hard to make us believe that isn't so - that the New 52 is here to stay. At this point, my attitude is, "Whatever. We'll see." I'm reading Wonder Woman and loving it, so... whatever. We'll see.

#41 Posted by kfhrfdu_89_76k (3709 posts) - - Show Bio

But...Doesn`t the Siegel-family simply want money from DC? Money that they have butt loads of?

#42 Posted by SmashBrawler (5406 posts) - - Show Bio

@kfhrfdu_89_76k said:

But...Doesn`t the Siegel-family simply want money from DC? Money that they have butt loads of?

Compare 25 grand a year to the millions WB/DC makes a year thanks to Superman.

#43 Posted by cbishop (6935 posts) - - Show Bio

@kfhrfdu_89_76k: @SmashBrawler said:

@kfhrfdu_89_76k said:

But...Doesn`t the Siegel-family simply want money from DC? Money that they have butt loads of?

Compare 25 grand a year to the millions WB/DC makes a year thanks to Superman.

As we know now, one of the families has already lost in court, and it looks pretty shaky for the other family. Based on the original work-for-hire contract, they are going to lose. The only thing that will change that is if there has been some newer contract that supersedes the original agreement. Contractually, the families don't deserve squat, but my personal opinion is TW/AOL should pony up, just out of sheer gratitude for eighty years of money-making. Not because they should have to, just because they should want to.

#44 Posted by SmashBrawler (5406 posts) - - Show Bio

@cbishop said:

@kfhrfdu_89_76k: @SmashBrawler said:

@kfhrfdu_89_76k said:

But...Doesn`t the Siegel-family simply want money from DC? Money that they have butt loads of?

Compare 25 grand a year to the millions WB/DC makes a year thanks to Superman.

As we know now, one of the families has already lost in court, and it looks pretty shaky for the other family. Based on the original work-for-hire contract, they are going to lose. The only thing that will change that is if there has been some newer contract that supersedes the original agreement. Contractually, the families don't deserve squat, but my personal opinion is TW/AOL should pony up, just out of sheer gratitude for eighty years of money-making. Not because they should have to, just because they should want to.

It's kind of hard to tell which side I'm on, to be honest. Even though the families deserve some kind of decent remuneration, I can't say I wasn't happy when I heard that TW ended up winning.

#45 Posted by cbishop (6935 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmashBrawler said:

It's kind of hard to tell which side I'm on, to be honest. Even though the families deserve some kind of decent remuneration, I can't say I wasn't happy when I heard that TW ended up winning.

I was happy to hear that TW/AOL won, because Superman's been with DC for eighty years - to split up his history between DC and the families over a lawsuit would just be wrong. I don't feel like the families deserve anything. Jerry Siegel & Joe Shuster don't either - they got exactly what they asked for, when they sold Superman in a work-for-hire agreement. That's how things worked back then.

HOWEVER, those two men launched an industry. The artform of comics was already around in newspaper strips and comics like Western, War, and Romance comics. There were some costumed vigilante types before Superman and Batman, but Superman put superheroes on the map, and Siegel & Shuster did that. They started the bang that mushroomed into DC & Marvel Comics, and decades later, Image, Dark Horse, and all the rest.

Superman will be making DC & TW/AOL money long after the current folks in the Siegel & Shuster families are dead, buried, and rotted to the bones. For that alone, they should pay those families enough to make them ridiculously comfortable for the rest of their lives, even to the point of picking up medical costs, when things get bad. Not because the families deserve it. But because TW/AOL can do it, and they can do it without feeling it. They should want to do it. It doesn't make them look like chumps to go above and beyond the contracts they had with Jerry & Joe. It would make them look generous, and it would make them look grateful. Had they shown their gratitude to begin with, there wouldn't be a lawsuit, and if there were, they'd have even stronger footing to squash it.

In court, I want to see the company win (assuming there wasn't a contractual change somewhere along the way). In my heart though, it would be right to settle monetarily with the families. Not because the families deserve it, but just out of respect for the memories of J. Siegel & J. Shuster. To do less, even though they are legally right, is just... lacking.

#46 Posted by kfhrfdu_89_76k (3709 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmashBrawler:

Same here, I guess.

This edit will also create new pages on Comic Vine for:

Beware, you are proposing to add brand new pages to the wiki along with your edits. Make sure this is what you intended. This will likely increase the time it takes for your changes to go live.

Comment and Save

Until you earn 1000 points all your submissions need to be vetted by other Comic Vine users. This process takes no more than a few hours and we'll send you an email once approved.