The Outsiders of The New 52 (Not the actual team)

Posted by TheMess1428 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio

We all have complained once or twice about characters that have been erased from the timeline that is what we call The New 52. Two more notably characters are Donna Troy and Wally West. These two are the initial characters that most fans complain about. My suggestion or idea is for DC to publish a book about a group of characters that were erased from the New 52 universe but have been stuck in a pocket universe similar to the story arc where Superman and Lois Lane of Earth-2, Alexander Luthor of Earth-3, and Superboy-Prime were stranded outside the universe and forced to watch the events of the universe unfold in INFINITE CRISIS. Instead make it also similar to the story arc from COUNTDOWN TO FINAL CRISIS where Donna Troy, Jason Todd, and Kyle Rayner searched for Ray Palmer. Basically, make it Donna Troy, Wally West, and a few others somehow getting trapped outside the New 52 and being thrusted into it and still keeping a knowledge of the Pre-Flashpoint timeline. And ironically name them THE OUTSIDERS. Or maybe SECRET SIX (if there are six characters). Both could work here. Most likely if this were to happen, they would make this toward the end of the New 52 existing and creating some new Flashpoint sequel event or something that causes the universe to change back but it could just be there in the new universe and continue to co-exist much like WORLD'S FINEST being Earth-2 characters trapped on Earth-0.

So how do you feel about this idea? Would it work? What other characters would you want to see in the book? Ted Kord? Freddy Freeman? Black Lightning? Cassandra Cain? Connor Hawke? Mia Dearden?

#1 Posted by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

Throw in Renee Montoya as the Question and you have yourself a winning idea.

#2 Posted by TheMess1428 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4 said:

Throw in Renee Montoya as the Question and you have yourself a winning idea.

That is a good idea. What would be your ideal lineup?

#3 Posted by BlackArmor (6134 posts) - - Show Bio

Cass Cain, Freddy Freeman, Black Lightning, and Renee Montoya, have all been confirmed to return in fact Renee Montoya has been mentioned by name in Batwoman # 1

#4 Edited by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackArmor: Renee was mentioned by Kate, and her picture was on a wall inside the GCPD station, along with pictures of other cops. This is presumed to be a wall of deceased cops, though it's never explicitly stated. Even if it is, it could be likely that she's just missing or off doing something else, after the events Flashpoint. Her actual status as of now is unknown, unless I've missed a recent interview that confirms they have plans for her or something.

#5 Posted by BlackArmor (6134 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4: I'm assuming that people knowing her name and having a picture of her means that she exist post reboot or at least that she existed, my understanding of this concept is that its characters who have been removed from continuity and even if she won't be used very much Renee Montoya hasn't been removed from continuity

#6 Posted by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackArmor: But even Wally and Donna haven't been 'removed' from continuity. I recall seeing something recently saying that they did have plans for those two sometime in the future, unless that was wrong. If it is true though, then that would exempt them from this as well, wouldn't it?

#7 Posted by TheMess1428 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackArmor: @Ravager4: There have been other conversations about how some characters were put into cameos in early issues but ended up changing completely in plans for future appearances. Like Beast Boy and Raven appearing in TEEN TITANS #1 but having no other plans to appear except for a red Beast Boy in THE RAVAGERS. One of the characters I don't believe can exist in the New 52 without problems is Freddy Freeman because of the fact that Billy Batson's hero identity is named Shazam, not Captain Marvel. Because of that, there really can't be a Captain Marvel Jr.. But I can understand Black Lightning and Cassandra Cain existing.

#8 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

The Secret Six:

  • Donna Troy
  • Wally West
  • Tempest
  • Cassandra Cain
  • Ted Kord (who I can't fathom not existing in Booster's History, by the way)
  • Catman
#9 Edited by BlackArmor (6134 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4: Yes and No, DC's current position on Donna and Wally is desperately wanting to put them somewhere but not having any idea where that place will or could be, things like not wanting to de-age them or erase Wally's kids puts them in limbo so that their return to comics has been guaranteed they're not heading anywhere at the moment. If Dc heard this idea they may decide this is the perfect place to put them and remove them from continuity so they're not necessarily banned from this team. Even so if they are returned to cannon it wouldn't make any sense for them to be eligible to be in this team just like it wouldn't make since for Renee to appear even sparsely in Batwoman or Gotham and also pop up here plus it would take up space for characters who really have been removed from continuity and would need it more, of course if she really is dead or assumed dead I wouldn't mind her joining with an explanation but it wouldn't make sense for her to have pre reboot memories have pre reboot memories having lived her whole life in the new 52.

@TheMess1428: Johns has stressed the fact that Freddy and Mary will return but he hasn't revealed in what capacity he may not have powers, Billy is being addopted by a family with several other foster kids so I think that will explain Freddy, you are rght that Montoya's cameo in BW #1 could have been a screw up thpugh

#10 Posted by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackArmor: I feel like they could find a way to make it work. It could be as simple as having Flashpoint just screwing around with people's memories so that, when the timeline was reset, everyone believed that Renee Montoya died in action, when in reality she ended up in some pocket universe along with the rest of these guys. Don't get me wrong, if she's still around in the real DCnU, then great, but if it's just implying that she really is dead, with no reason or explanation whatsoever for it, then I would be more than a little upset at DC for needlessly removing a complex and interesting character, and I would much rather see her in an idea such as this.

#11 Posted by TheMess1428 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:

The Secret Six:

  • Donna Troy
  • Wally West
  • Tempest
  • Cassandra Cain
  • Ted Kord (who I can't fathom not existing in Booster's History, by the way)
  • Catman
Tempest was referenced in RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #1 as a member of the original group that Dick and Starfire once were members of. Roy listed: Dick, Garth, Dustin, Vic, Lilith, and Gar. So I believe he exists in the timeline but is probably just hanging out in Atlantis. Or is dead. It is said that Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown still exist in the New 52 but just don't have any plans yet. And why Catman? 
 
@BlackArmor said:

@TheMess1428: Johns has stressed the fact that Freddy and Mary will return but he hasn't revealed in what capacity he may not have powers, Billy is being addopted by a family with several other foster kids so I think that will explain Freddy, you are rght that Montoya's cameo in BW #1 could have been a screw up thpugh

I guess you could be correct but I just can't see how it would work with the name changes.
#12 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheMess1428: I see... That's interesting since Gar is appearing in The Ravagers so I hope that his previous affilation with the team is mentioned there. I'm glad Garth is there. Cain technically has only been mentioned by Editors, not in-book, so I let myself include her too. I chose Catman because the team is just a collection of favorites xD.

#13 Posted by TheMess1428 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp: One of the characters I believe really should be put in there alongside Donna and Wally is Connor Hawke. Mostly because he was eliminated because of the fact that Green Arrow has been de-aged to 24 years old. Can't have an adult son if you're 24 years old. And I still hold on to the idea that Cassandra Cain is the China-based member of Batman, Incorporated. So that possibility is still out there. I also think there could be a possibility of Catman being in the Suicide Squad. And this is quite possibly the way to bring back Ted Kord to all versions of continuity.
#14 Posted by BlackArmor (6134 posts) - - Show Bio

@Ravager4: Your right it could work, and I hope Renee winds up somewhere, I prefer Vic but Montoya is still a great character who at least deserves an explanation for her death if not a return to a prominent role.

@TheMess1428: Hopefully Freddy can still have powers but I'm not so sure....

#15 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

Meh... I can see Connor being introduced into the New 52.

#16 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (12402 posts) - - Show Bio

No. I want the REAL Outsiders back. Not this Outlaws nonsense.

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#17 Posted by TheMess1428 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio
@BlackArmor said:

@Ravager4: Your right it could work, and I hope Renee winds up somewhere, I prefer Vic but Montoya is still a great character who at least deserves an explanation for her death if not a return to a prominent role.

@TheMess1428: Hopefully Freddy can still have powers but I'm not so sure....

Vic Sage could be a great idea as well. Maybe Freddy will be Shazam Jr? 
 
@ReVamp said:

Meh... I can see Connor being introduced into the New 52.

The only way that would be possible if Oliver Queen, Roy Harper, and Connor Hawke were once members of an archer team and none of them were related. 
 
@Avenging-X-Bolt said:
No. I want the REAL Outsiders back. Not this Outlaws nonsense.
It really wouldn't work because of Batman's negative feelings towards any other groups besides the core Justice League team as well as some of the characters not able to be on the team. Metamorpho is a woman now. Katana is a member of the Birds of Prey. Geo-Force might not even exist in this universe now that Terra is drastically changed in this one. Black Lightning will most likely just be a Justice League member. Maybe Geo-Force could be a member of the team and having Terra exist now might become a storyline.
#18 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheMess1428: I was actually thinking of mostly scraping his relation to GA, at least in the beginning and expanding on his MA past.

#19 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (12402 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheMess1428:

So why is Batman Inc still active? I think that Batman's problem is with teams he has no control over. The REAL Metamorpho is still around (He was one of the rejected candidates of JLI). We don't need Geo-Force or Katana. It's not like the team has never operated without them before.I reiterate, We need the REAL Outsiders back, and who says we can't have Black Lightning back? Seriously he wasn't THAT big in the Justice League.

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#20 Posted by TheMess1428 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio
@ReVamp said:

@TheMess1428: I was actually thinking of mostly scraping his relation to GA, at least in the beginning and expanding on his MA past.

Then he most likely will become an obscure character and would make a lot of fans angry because of his drastic changes. 
 
@Avenging-X-Bolt said:
@TheMess1428:

So why is Batman Inc still active? I think that Batman's problem is with teams he has no control over. The REAL Metamorpho is still around (He was one of the rejected candidates of JLI). We don't need Geo-Force or Katana. It's not like the team has never operated without them before.I reiterate, We need the REAL Outsiders back, and who says we can't have Black Lightning back? Seriously he wasn't THAT big in the Justice League.

You are right about the Batman wanting control issue. As for Metamorpho appearing in JLI #1, he was not fully addressed in the issue but was drawn in the background. We have talked about it earlier in this thread that some of those characters can't be for surely in the New 52 universe because it could have been accidental. I don't think a random team book of Black Lightning, Metamorpho and Halo would be quite so popular as well as the idea of the Outsiders existing doesn't seem too likely to fit in as well as the Doom Patrol. There isn't a drastic need for teams that don't fit in with the rest of the heroes.
#21 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (10909 posts) - - Show Bio

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

So why is Batman Inc still active? I think that Batman's problem is with teams he has no control over. The REAL Metamorpho is still around (He was one of the rejected candidates of JLI). We don't need Geo-Force or Katana. It's not like the team has never operated without them before.I reiterate, We need the REAL Outsiders back, and who says we can't have Black Lightning back? Seriously he wasn't THAT big in the Justice League.

If The Outsiders came back, I'd be so happy. But I want the Dick Grayson version outsiders because it was the original team mixed with the titans. Which would be a good excuse to use to call the nameless perez era titans.

@BlackArmor said:

@TheMess1428: Hopefully Freddy can still have powers but I'm not so sure....

Vic Sage could be a great idea as well. Maybe Freddy will be Shazam Jr?

Renaming Freddy wouldn't be difficult at all. If it was originally Captain Marvel and Captain Marvel Jr./CM3 and they renamed CM to Shazam then remaning CM3 to Shazam Jr is a no brainer. Unless they decide to complete rename him, which I think is a better idea. The most difficult issue would be renaming Mary Marvel though.

#22 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheMess1428: Better than not appearing though...

#23 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (12402 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheMes1428: Who says it hast tobe be JUST BL, Metamorpho, and Halo....you are aware that there have been other members of the team besides them right? what about Grace (Outsiders fans have been screaming for her return to the team for years) or Creeper (He has great cult following). Hell even Supergirl was a member at one time, and Nightwing fans keep saying he needs to be leading something. People keep misunderstanding the Outsiders concept, while being Misfits is a part of it but it's the smallest part. The Outsiders have always been the JL's X-Force so to speak. The quick-strike and later stealth ops alternative.

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#24 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (12402 posts) - - Show Bio

@ArturoCalaKayvee

Original team mix my butt. We had maybe 2 classic members. The VAST majority of the team,we're Titans or Titanesque heroes.

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#25 Posted by TheMess1428 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio

@ArturoCalaKayVee said:

@BlackArmor said:

@TheMess1428: Hopefully Freddy can still have powers but I'm not so sure....

Vic Sage could be a great idea as well. Maybe Freddy will be Shazam Jr?

Renaming Freddy wouldn't be difficult at all. If it was originally Captain Marvel and Captain Marvel Jr./CM3 and they renamed CM to Shazam then remaning CM3 to Shazam Jr is a no brainer. Unless they decide to complete rename him, which I think is a better idea. The most difficult issue would be renaming Mary Marvel though.

Yeah this is true and I had been thinking Mary Marvel too but just didn't want to include her after all that Final Crisis stuff.

@ReVamp said:

@TheMess1428: Better than not appearing though...

That's why I felt he should be a member of the team with Donna and Wally.

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

@TheMess1428: Who says it hast tobe be JUST BL, Metamorpho, and Halo....you are aware that there have been other members of the team besides them right? what about Grace (Outsiders fans have been screaming for her return to the team for years) or Creeper (He has great cult following). Hell even Supergirl was a member at one time, and Nightwing fans keep saying he needs to be leading something. People keep misunderstanding the Outsiders concept, while being Misfits is a part of it but it's the smallest part. The Outsiders have always been the JL's X-Force so to speak. The quick-strike and later stealth ops alternative.

Yes I do know about all those other teammates but I always kinda go back to the core team that I remember as being the most famous or whatever. Without Katana, Geo-Force, and Metamorpho, it feels odd to me. As for the stealth team, that pretty much seems like what Red Hood's team would be after all the issues with who the core team really are and have to do with, mainly Red Hood's issues. As for Nightwing leading something, I think they should show some kind of real nod to the group that is referenced in Red Hood as the "old gang".

#26 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (12402 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheMess1428: fair enough I suppose. I haven't been following RHATO, because it just screams horrible Outsiders ripoff to me. I'm assuming that the old gang are the "Titans"

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#27 Edited by TheMess1428 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio

@Avenging-X-Bolt said:

@TheMess1428: fair enough I suppose. I haven't been following RHATO, because it just screams horrible Outsiders ripoff to me. I'm assuming that the old gang are the "Titans"

It is an Outsiders ripoff but isn't all that horrible. I actually like the series as a whole. It just doesn't run in the same direction as the Outsiders but it feels that it could. And yes the old gang is the Titans but they just weren't called the Teen Titans. We just don't know what they were called yet.

EDIT: I also noticed that Freight Train, Halo, and Looker are all shown on the cover of Batman, Incorporated #2.

#28 Posted by TheMess1428 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio

I just realized that when Flashpoint started, Booster Gold was thrown into that timeline unchanged, much like how we want this team to exist. So if the beginning of Flashpoint could keep him unchanged, and the ending changed him in the new universe, then there could be a chance that the original Booster Gold is actually not in this timeline but still in the original. He could become the leader of this team, easily. So I stick with Booster Gold, Donna Troy, Wally West, Connor Hawke, and 2 others as the team.

#29 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (12402 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheMess1428: Cool, it looks like the Outsiders death in Leviathan strikes didn't carry over to the New 52. I wish Frieght Train had stayed dead though. I can't stand him.

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#30 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (12402 posts) - - Show Bio

But wait......Tim isn't with them............I thought HE was supposed to be leading them? I

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#31 Posted by TheMess1428 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio

@Avenging-X-Bolt: I'm behind on my Batman Inc reading but I did skim it enough to know what you're talking about but they changed it so that Tim could be the leader of the Teen Titans.

#32 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (12402 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn!!!!!

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#33 Posted by cowtron_2000 (27 posts) - - Show Bio

Donna Troy, Flash (and his family), Jesse Quick, Jade, Obsidian, Grace, Thunder (Anissa), Connor Hawke.

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