Off My Mind: Why We Need to Know DC's Full 'New 52' History

  • 190 results
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
#151 Posted by Queso6p4 (1438 posts) - - Show Bio

Hear, hear G-Man. Your argument is well-said and has very reasonable points. Somewhat surprisingly it was a Gamestop who told me "Comic readers shouldn't have to sift through tons of crap to get to the good stuff," and this five year time span is way too short to deal with 25 years of established continuity. You'd have to really plan it out quite meticulously to make it look even somewhat sensible and that's not what we're getting here.

@Scantenii: Interesting point with the Phantom Stranger and Pandora.

#152 Posted by jimmyjames (19 posts) - - Show Bio

To those saying no big deal, I would agree if DC hadn't done a partial reboot. Did Final Crisis happen? If not, then why Batman Incorporated? Green Lantern's history is left untouched, but if Superman didn't die, how was Coast City destroyed? Where is Cyborg Superman? Has Mongul shown up yet? GL plays into Zero Hour. If no Zero Hour, then no Infinite Crisis. No Infinite Crisis then No Final Crisis. TOO MANY DAMN QUESTIONS :(

#153 Posted by danhimself (22586 posts) - - Show Bio

@jrock85 said:

@danhimself said:

I've been saying this for a while now and I'll continue saying it until DC fixes the glaring mistakes they've made... DC has no idea what they're doing!...they had no framework in place prior to the reboot...all they knew is that they wanted to reboot and that they had some "cool" ideas and that was all they needed....for something as big as the idea of the New 52 they should have sat down for YEARS and went over every single plot point with a fine toothed comb....there should have been a unshakeable prior to the first issues timeline set up before the reboot happened and they should have had at least 5 years of stories mapped out just to do whatever they could to avoid this current situation....we're only a year in and there has already been numerous retcons...that's just sloppy

AND ANOTHER THING... what G-Man said about it not being old reader friendly is completely true....it's painfully obvious that they did not care about old readers at all....there has been nothing done with this reboot to appeal to us the people who have supported their company for years and decades prior to the reboot...we've had characters whose origins have been completely altered to the point of being unrecognizable for apparently no reason at all...characters who working extremely well prior to the reboot like Green Arrow are now suffering in sales and poor writing....some huge characters have been completely erased and despite what they're telling us it's become apparent that the characters are just plain hated by some of the editorial staff...Manapul has tried numerous times to be allowed to use Wally West and each time has been shot down and told he wasn't allowed to use the character despite from what we can tell that no other writer is using him or has plans for him...same goes for Donna Troy, Cassandra Cain, and Stephanie Brown....fans have been screaming for these characters to return and all we've heard is Didio saying that they can't reintroduce all the characters at once but it's ok for Vibe to get an ongoing????

.

.

.

.

sigh /rant over

awwww shucks

#154 Posted by slopoke36 (61 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok I got an opinion this subject. I took a 15 year hideous from comics I came back just for the "Death of the Family" and let say that the New DC 52 is good. I let go of my idea of "continuity" and just let the stories be told for what they are. I understand that some things need to be explained and we want to see some of the old stuff in these new comics, because we like the details and stories. But lets be real. This isn't real and we should just read the new stories for what they are. This is new material written by some what new people. Relax. Sit back and enjoy these books. What is the worst that can happen? Another retcon to bring us back to reality?

#155 Posted by slopoke36 (61 posts) - - Show Bio

One more thing. It seems like most die hard comic readers want to hang on to much to the old stuff. Writers don't want to be write about the old stuff. They want to put a spin on it and make the stories their own. Let go people.

#156 Posted by wagnert2364 (1 posts) - - Show Bio

I've stopped buying most DC comics also. The bulk of my comics are now from Dark Horse (Buffy Universe), IDW (Dr. Who and Star Trek), Boundless (Lady Death), and Dynamite (multiple characters, especially the Warlord of Mars group) I really miss all the Justice Society (old and new) characters as well as previously mentioned characters such as Wally West, Jade, Stephanie Brown, and others. Green lantern books have been good except for what the writers are doing to all the Guardians. Apparently they need to be killed off (the Guardians and maybe the Zamorans) to save the Universe.

Instead of rebooting all the time, leave the New Earth timeline be, and let the characters age in real time, replacing the Legacy characters with descendents or successors (such as Flash II, Superman II, Batman II, etc). These could be Clark & Lois's son; Dick Grayson; Wally West, and similier offshoots or replacements as the primary character ages. The Justice Society was a case study in this replacement technique.

#157 Posted by slopoke36 (61 posts) - - Show Bio

@wagnert2364: Good point about letting natural replacements happen. That might be just craziest enough to work.

#158 Posted by Dedpool (341 posts) - - Show Bio

DC's problem has always been retooling, and reconning everything all the time. A retcon can be done without ignoring the complete history of the characters. A Secret origins weekly series like 52 or Birghtest day would actually be the best way to go.

#159 Posted by BlackReaper (595 posts) - - Show Bio

@SoA said:

time for the the New New 52...

The Newest 52est

#160 Posted by yellowstar128 (22 posts) - - Show Bio

I only got into comics about 2 1/2 years ago. I started with the bat titles during the whole Return of Bruce Wayne thing and let me tell you that was WAY confusing for a brand new reader but I HAD to know what was going on. It was easy to fall in love with the characters, I wanted to know what would happen to them and how they got where they were. So I searched out answers.

Just about the time I had a good grasp on things, they announced the New 52. I went into it with an open mind. Some things were a pleasant surprise (Aquaman) and some were a disappointment (Mr. Terrific). But for me, the overarching problem is I just don't love these characters like the old ones. Every victory is less sweet, every trial is a little less nerve-racking, and every failure is a little less heart wrenching than they used to be. I don't KNOW these characters and there's no way to get to know them. Every time I think I make a little progress, the big shots at DC pull the rug out from under me. It's just frustrating. If you want to change something later, that's what alternate realities are for.

Just reboot the whole thing. And next time, put out a list at the beginning "These story arcs happened" and a timeline. And stick to it!

#161 Posted by slopoke89 (14 posts) - - Show Bio

Although I agree that origin stories can be an important part of a character, they become too convoluted during the run of the comic. The numerous reboots, offshoots, and graphic novels add to confusion that turn some people away from comics to begin with. We can learn about a comic character over time, and not have to know up front all at once. Take for instance, Wolverine. We went decades without knowing anything about his past except for bits and pieces. It added a layer of depth to him, and I believe helps with character development because writers aren't shoe-horned into a framework that's been established by previous writers. If DC wants to start over and appeal to new readers, they have to simplify things, and having them read back stories is not how they're going to do that. Just have the character develop naturally and call back stories from the past.

#162 Posted by sentryman555 (771 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad: I had completely forgotten about the 0 issue with damian somehow. It definitely throws the aging idea out the window. I just thought if sped up aging worked for superboy....but again completely different now. I just hope it gets fixed but overall right now I'm not too worried about it. As long as they don't bring up how he somehow spent a year with dick as Batman it shouldn't come into play lol.

#163 Posted by Cancer the Conqueror (78 posts) - - Show Bio

Crisis on Infinite Earths was helmed by George Perez and executed by a handful of writers. The Ultimate Marvel series was penned by three or four writers at a time, and the most continuity problems were not between writers but between writer and artist. When the idea for Age of Apocalypse came about, a core group of writers isolated themselves in a cabin in the mountains to work out all the kinks.

The problem in this reboot lies with the main problem in the characters themselves; the tiring attempt to re-invent a character when the proper thing would be to re-innovate it. I mean Action Comics, Wonder Woman, Swamp Thing, Scott Snyder's Batman...right off the bat, there's some great series. Jim Lee allegedly said a massive board was made to figure out every major DC character and where they would be post-Flashpoint, but apparently some writers missed out on the meeting. I grew up with Marvel, where we are meant to believe events like Galactus' first invasion to the Symbiote Saga were only ten or fifteen years away from present-day events, or just erased entirely. I always felt DC had something special, where there was full knowledge of it's ridiculously long history. There was an era of superheroes before the Justice League, and the experiences of these heroes is what makes them so interesting. Now the Golden Age has been completely erased, the Silver Age Teen Titans seemingly were never an official group, I am especially disappointing in the handling of Catwoman. I thought this relaunch would shed some light on a character pivotal to the Batman mythos, yet has no clear origin, motivation or standpoint. The fact that Winnick outright ripped off the already lame Batman Returns story...just dumb.

I agree with Linkara that for as many great things that have come out of this reboot, the bad things seem so much worse in comparison. The fact that DC puts up those polls online over what fans would like to see and then promptly remove it when it is chock full of "Bring back pre-New 52" is evidence that little energy was put into this thought, and it sounds like things are just a mess right now.

#164 Posted by carrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr (4 posts) - - Show Bio

as Adam implied I'm shocked that you able to earn $7328 in one month on the internet. did you look at this page cloud68.c om

#165 Posted by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

Current stories will mention some history sometimes. Future stories can also give different versions of history depending on new story needs so I prefer to just take things one story at a time. Old stories from 1938 to present can also be made to fit into current history for those with imagination and time.

#166 Posted by crazed_h3ro (1000 posts) - - Show Bio

Great Article by the way. I have been wondering what exactly happened during "Blackest Night" and "Brightest Day". Who exactly were brought back from death, and how much of the event has changed from the Re-lunched. does Osiris exist? Did Hawk-man, and Hawk-girl were ever killed in the event? (seeing we have not seen her since the lunch, except in Earth-2) and what about Deadman? was he screwed over at the end of Brightest Day? because Swamp-thing is back in action, but was he brought back by the light? (yes) and how much of it was relevant to his Character coming back to life?

Pleases DC, so many questions, answer most of them please.

#167 Posted by SUNMAN (7239 posts) - - Show Bio
#168 Posted by Lonestar9 (29 posts) - - Show Bio

I was out of comics(well except for Star Wars) for 14 years. I only restarted because I bought an Android Tablet in 2011 and saw that I could read comics on it. Cool. I bought it Sept 2011, which I think is when DC started the new 52. There's no way they could do a soft-reboot and keep everybody happy. Yet I totally can see how old readers feel jaded. I'm reading and have read some good stories pre-52, that no longer seem to have any bearing on things. I see characters I barely know, like Stephanie Brown, just gone. No explanation, nothing. To me, it was not well thought out, the 5 year limit hurts them in so many ways, it was just not thought thru. Yet out of this come new stories that are fun, and new spins on old characters, that for the most part work. They may find ways to keep old readers happy, but I know they have lost quite a few along the way, and gained some, so I hope they gained enough new ones to make up for lost old ones. I'm still with them, but I can easily see dropping more titles as things unfold. Catwoman #0 was just painful for example.

#169 Edited by zachkastner (188 posts) - - Show Bio

Scott Snyder talks about the history kept and lost (among his rise to being the lead writer of Batman) in his chat with Kevin Smith's Fatman on Batman podcast series here: http://smodcast.com/episodes/scott-snyder-of-cowls-and-owls/

To paraphrase the segment: writers were given the choice to establish what was canon and what wasn't--and because Scott and the other writers in the Batverse were so connected with the previous history all of the main events [such as Cataclysm, No Man's Land, Knightfall, Hush] remain intact, though they may not be referenced towards they won't try to refute said events.

He also mentions how writers of other Batbooks start unweaving mythos (like Teen Titans with Tim and RHatO with Jason) but the guidelines the Batfamily, at least, is going off is entirely pre-New 52.

I wish each major writer were able to have sit down talks like this. Knowing if Supes has died at one point is sort of important in how Superboy comes into being. They wouldn't even need specifics, just hint at "yup he died against ___ and that event's overall impact did still happen"

#170 Posted by jamesgelliott (1 posts) - - Show Bio

I like the idea of bringing back the secret origins series to explain the first 5 years of the new 52. "Not to mention the total time paradox that is Damian Wayne. How can Batman have a 10 year old son with the daughter of a villain if he's only been Batman for six or seven years?" If I were a writer, I would explain it using the Lazarus pit. I would imagine Talia wouldn't want to fool with 2-3 years of changing diapers, runny noses, bottle feedings and burpings. Imagine that it the Lazarus pit could also utilized to accelerate aging for to get a body at it's physical peak. Of course you wouldn't want to accelerate someone to 25 and then start training them, you would have missed out on the prime time for learing. But if you accelerated them from an infant to about age 4 you could start some of the physical and strategic training.

#171 Posted by irmensul (40 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel that old readers have just been dumped on..costumes ruined..so much promise unfulfilled..I havent read the new 52 yet but going by what i have read..meh..

#172 Posted by irmensul (40 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel that old readers have just been dumped on..costumes ruined..so much promise unfulfilled..I havent read the new 52 yet but going by what i have read..meh..

For me this is a time to fill in the runs from before this happened..esp DC stuff..as Marvel has been mostly not that good since Madureira left X-Men/Harras left..obviously theres some great stuff but..some of the main titles..ie xmen..for exampel-not that good

#173 Posted by sgcomicguy (89 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad: Interesting comment on Captain Atom. Originally Allan Moore wanted to use Charlton Comics characters like Captain Atom, Blue Beetle and the Question (made by Steve Ditko), but DC did not want this. Instead he used them as inspiration for Dr.Manhattan, Nite Owl and Rorschach (respectively). So what you're really saying is Captain Atom is a rip-off of a character who is (technically) a Captain Atom rip-off. Captain Atom is only ripping himself off, which is like saying the Superman in Earth-2 is ripping off the Superman in Justice League. I see NO problem with this.

#174 Posted by havoc1201 (516 posts) - - Show Bio

@ThomasElliot: also Tim was still a robin he was just called red robin so there was actually 4 robins in five years and from what i have been hearing Jason was only robin for about six or seven months. but the time still and will never truly add up.

#175 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@sgcomicguy said:

@arnoldoaad: Interesting comment on Captain Atom. Originally Allan Moore wanted to use Charlton Comics characters like Captain Atom, Blue Beetle and the Question (made by Steve Ditko), but DC did not want this. Instead he used them as inspiration for Dr.Manhattan, Nite Owl and Rorschach (respectively). So what you're really saying is Captain Atom is a rip-off of a character who is (technically) a Captain Atom rip-off. Captain Atom is only ripping himself off, which is like saying the Superman in Earth-2 is ripping off the Superman in Justice League. I see NO problem with this.

I know this story

people just keep throwing it at me

I know that Dr Manhattan was based of Captain Atom, but he is nothing like Captain Atom, there are as many similarities between this 2 as there are similarities between Rorshach and The Question, or the Comedian and Peacemaker, or Ozymandias and Peter Thunderbolt

It Doesnt Matter

Captain Atom was always different from Manhatan, you just need to compare him from things like JLE, Captain Atom Armageddon or Justice League: Generation Lost or even the TV Shows, It is not the same.

NU-Captain Atom, is just like Manhattan, it is not a natural evolution of the character, it is not original or creative and I think it sucks

#176 Posted by sgcomicguy (89 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad: You do make a good point here, they are NOT the same, but the whole point of a reboot is for writers to change aspects of less successful characters (relative to Superman and Batman) and try to make them more interesting. All of the things you've referenced are (weather good or bad) 'old' continuity now, so now is the opportunity to rewrite them. This doesn't always have to be a bad thing. When Geoff Johns started to change Green Lantern when he first came on and gave the character a rebirth- both figuratively and literally :P To be honest the part I was really taking issue with was when you called Captain Atom a Doctor Manhattan rip-off. I feel it is an odd to say considering the conception of these characters.

#177 Posted by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

Maybe DC can try Captain Atom with the personality of Wolverine ?

#178 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@sgcomicguy said:

@arnoldoaad: You do make a good point here, they are NOT the same, but the whole point of a reboot is for writers to change aspects of less successful characters (relative to Superman and Batman) and try to make them more interesting. All of the things you've referenced are (weather good or bad) 'old' continuity now, so now is the opportunity to rewrite them. This doesn't always have to be a bad thing.

I totally can make an entire blogpost about this, and i probably will eventually but i will just say this

that something is old continuity doesnt mean that is bad, or good, just like something being new doesnt mean is good or bad, its just different

the oportunity that you are talking about is something i talk in my first blog posts about the best and the worst of the relaunch

The titles and characters have the opportunity to just lost those problems that had been haunting those characters because of continuity and just grab the best qualities of them

In my opinion, the best comics of the relaunch had been those which had kept the spirit of the character or make it better than ever, to have a new version of for example the Swamp Thing which is different from other versions of the character and grab all the the best qualities of the past to make something new

JT Krul had the chance to create the Best Possible versions of Green Arrow and Captain Atom, and i think he failed Big time

he created what i think is the worst version of Green Arrow ever made and just made a copy of Doctor Manhattan, a title that just deserved to be cancelled in the very first wave,

When Geoff Johns started to change Green Lantern when he first came on and gave the character a rebirth- both figuratively and literally :P To be honest the part I was really taking issue with was when you called Captain Atom a Doctor Manhattan rip-off. I feel it is an odd to say considering the conception of these characters.

Johns didnt reinvented the Green Lantern mythos, he used what he love from the Green Lantern comic to make it new again, the Sinestro Corps, thats a product of Sinestro's power, Atrosious was a character created by Alan Moore, so was Sodam Yat and the Blackest Night Prophesy, he just reimagine them

just like Parallax and Ion, one created by Marx the other one by Winnick which in turn was a product of Parallax

He grab the best parts of Green Lantern to revitilize it, but he didnt reinvent it into a ripoff of something else

#179 Posted by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

Dc owns the characters so they can keep on doing more reboots even if they make some mistakes in some reboots. Dc history also tends to change month to month depending on the latest stories so it is useless for dc to write history books. Len Wein wrote a dc history title recently which became obsolete pretty fast. I have lots of old who's who series and they all become obsolete pretty fast. DC can maintain an online version of the history but it is a lot of work to update dc history or continuity every month bec. it changes from month to month as new stories come out. Editors at comicvine do maintain some type of current dc continuities based on the monthly changes from the latest comic books.

#180 Posted by sgcomicguy (89 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad: I'm not claiming its 'good' or 'bad' either. But it is in the past- possibly in a different universe. The New52 Captain Atom does not have to act like the old one. He did not have a huge following so DC wanted to go in another direction with him. It is NOT a rip-off. That being said I am not going to claim that the New52's Captain Atom is better than the old one, that is another debate altogether.

In a way Johns did reinvent the mythos. Prior to him there was only Green and Yellow and sometimes pink. Furthermore Green Lanterns couldn't effect yellow, but with in a few issue Johns changed all of that. He had to go back and explain why Hal Jordan, one of the bravest men on earth, could succumb to the effects of Parallax. He had to look at the work of Marz from almost a decade ago and pretty much write it with all his additions. He was under the influence of Parallax for months and it caused his hair to turn white on the sides, rather than Hal getting old and succumbing to his own fears. Rewrites are not a bad thing all the time. In this case John's edits fixed a lot of problems with previous stories and made the character and his history much more rich exciting.

As for your Green Arrow example I agree entirely, they tried something new and it failed miserably.

PS- where did you here "Atrosious was a character created by Alan Moore"? I know Sodam Yat is by Alan Moore (even though I havn't read that issue), but I have never heard about 'Atrosious', also being his design by Moore.,BothComic and Wiki says there made by Geoff Johns. Could you let me know where you heard this, because it sounds really cool :)

#181 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@sgcomicguy said:

@arnoldoaad: I'm not claiming its 'good' or 'bad' either. But it is in the past- possibly in a different universe. The New52 Captain Atom does not have to act like the old one. He did not have a huge following so DC wanted to go in another direction with him. It is NOT a rip-off. That being said I am not going to claim that the New52's Captain Atom is better than the old one, that is another debate altogether.

It Is a ripoff, Krul is just a talentless writer

I have never read a single good thing from him

Now I will be fair, i will admit that i didnt read all of Captain Atom, I read only the first 4 chps and issue 0 and i actually heard that it gets better but i just didnt care about the character or the setting in 4 issues and thats basically what killed the title and it was one of the most boring things i ever read and the ending...

oh!

the ending

that was something special

Captain Atom realizes that he is too much of a god and his presense is perjiditial to the world, so he left Earth

Thats what happen in Watchmen!

Between this an Arsenal being impotent its just obviosu that Krul just tries to imitate Moore's writing and failing miserablt

In a way Johns did reinvent the mythos. Prior to him there was only Green and Yellow and sometimes pink. Furthermore Green Lanterns couldn't effect yellow, but with in a few issue Johns changed all of that. He had to go back and explain why Hal Jordan, one of the bravest men on earth, could succumb to the effects of Parallax. He had to look at the work of Marz from almost a decade ago and pretty much write it with all his additions. He was under the influence of Parallax for months and it caused his hair to turn white on the sides, rather than Hal getting old and succumbing to his own fears. Rewrites are not a bad thing all the time. In this case John's edits fixed a lot of problems with previous stories and made the character and his history much more rich exciting.

no, sorry but you are completely wrong here

Johns didnt reinvented the Mythos, he just expanded it, the Green Lantern of John was still weak to Yellow, he just gave an explanation of what made the weakness work and found a way to remove it, in fact, Marz just removed it all together with no explanation for Kyle Rayner and Johns just came with the explanation for it

a reinvention is basically what Marz did, just restart with a new setting entirely, Johns just grab an old setting and made it new again

As for your Green Arrow example I agree entirely, they tried something new and it failed miserably.

PS- where did you here "Atrosious was a character created by Alan Moore"? I know Sodam Yat is by Alan Moore (even though I havn't read that issue), but I have never heard about 'Atrosious', also being his design by Moore.,BothComic and Wiki says there made by Geoff Johns. Could you let me know where you heard this, because it sounds really cool :)

Well technically Atrocious wasnt created by Moore, but he created The Five Inversions who foretell the Blackest Night, i dont remember if Atrocious is reffer by name there but i do know is a concept made by Moore

@colonyofcells said:

Dc owns the characters so they can keep on doing more reboots even if they make some mistakes in some reboots. Dc history also tends to change month to month depending on the latest stories so it is useless for dc to write history books. Len Wein wrote a dc history title recently which became obsolete pretty fast. I have lots of old who's who series and they all become obsolete pretty fast. DC can maintain an online version of the history but it is a lot of work to update dc history or continuity every month bec. it changes from month to month as new stories come out. Editors at comicvine do maintain some type of current dc continuities based on the monthly changes from the latest comic books.

Oh DC Legacies, that was a complete waste of time

why the hell didnt they do that after the reboot to clear the 5 years of continuity

#182 Posted by Mbecks14 (2068 posts) - - Show Bio

I think they really wrote themselves into a corner with the whole "five year timeline" thing. And their constant need to show us how things are so new and different by changing/ruining things is making everything too complicated. If they had a more consistent reboot across the board that wasn't as dramatic and just kind of went with "All those old stories kind of happened" we would all be a lot better off.

#183 Posted by Ravager4 (1627 posts) - - Show Bio

A lot of the timelines are messed up in the New 52, the most glaring being the Batman timeline, obviously. But others have been hit with the stupid stick as well. Just take a look at Deathstroke's timeline. According to what we've been told, Team 7 takes place five years ago, a team that Slade was on. In his #0 issue, however, it tells us he didn't get married and have kids until after his time in Team 7, yet in the present day his children are all grown up, when by the timeline we've established they shouldn't be more than five years old. Consistency, people, that's all I'm asking for.

#184 Posted by Biff (1 posts) - - Show Bio

I wish there was someone who could just sit me down and give me a list of everything that changed with the New 52. DC's infamous continuity issues make my brain sore...

#185 Posted by sgcomicguy (89 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad: I think we'll just have to agree to disagree because we both have very different opinions on what rewriting, and 'rip-off' means to each of us.

Johns added enough to change large parts of the GL universe, Marz made it so only one ring (specially made by the guardians) could overcome yellow. Johns made it so they all could overcome yellow as long as they overcame fear- which changed nearly 40 years of the Green Lanterns mythos of not being able to affect yellow. His additions also change much of our perception of the Emerald Twilight story-Arc. Now you call it adding to older works, I see it as enough of a change to consider it rewriting (which I feel is different from a 'reboot' just to be clear) of older works. This is because when the original storyteller told it this is not what was intended, thus it has been rewritten into a new (and obviously better) story. But I do see your argument, these tales 'expand' on previous stories- your correct in that observation. DC did not want to through away years of continuity entirely. Our debate is really- at point do we stop saying something is an addition to a old story, and when do we say the author is rewriting? In the 'New52' DC is throwing out large sections of their continuity and merging other universes that they own. So again we'll have to agree to disagree, because I feel it is perfectly acceptable disregard character traits that are not working, and draw from other universes (ie- the Capt. Atom of the Watchmen Universe); however, you do not agree with this (which is your opinion and that's perfectly fine), and I think it is safe to say that you feel this is crossing a line.

So in your mind, when Johns draws from Moore's works on GL it is "expanding", but when Krul draw's from Moore's Watchmen it's a "rip-off". Is this because they're in different universes, because you feel the character's (Dr.Manhattan and Capt. Atom) are unrelated, or because one was well done and the other was garbage? [Just so I'm clear I don't mean any offense by this. I just want to understand the your reasoning behind your decision.]

I am NOT defending Krul writing or this series (it's bad), just talking about the notion that Capt.Atom is a rip-off of Dr.Manhattan. [To be honest I was surprised he got a series.]

PS-"Well technically Atrocious wasn't created by Moore, but he created The Five Inversions who foretell the Blackest Night, i don't remember if Atrocious is refer by name there but i do know is a concept made by Moore" Thanks for sharing, I didn't know that, that's really cool- made my day ;)'s

#186 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@sgcomicguy said:

@arnoldoaad: I think we'll just have to agree to disagree because we both have very different opinions on what rewriting, and 'rip-off' means to each of us.

Johns added enough to change large parts of the GL universe, Marz made it so only one ring (specially made by the guardians) could overcome yellow. Johns made it so they all could overcome yellow as long as they overcame fear- which changed nearly 40 years of the Green Lanterns mythos of not being able to affect yellow.

no, he gave an explanation to why Yellow was immune to the rings and it was because Parallax was inside the Main Battery, he grab the idea of the yellow weakness and give it sense

His additions also change much of our perception of the Emerald Twilight story-Arc. Now you call it adding to older works, I see it as enough of a change to consider it rewriting (which I feel is different from a 'reboot' just to be clear) of older works. This is because when the original storyteller told it this is not what was intended, thus it has been rewritten into a new (and obviously better) story. But I do see your argument, these tales 'expand' on previous stories- your correct in that observation. DC did not want to through away years of continuity entirely. Our debate is really- at point do we stop saying something is an addition to a old story, and when do we say the author is rewriting? In the 'New52' DC is throwing out large sections of their continuity and merging other universes that they own. So again we'll have to agree to disagree, because I feel it is perfectly acceptable disregard character traits that are not working, and draw from other universes (ie- the Capt. Atom of the Watchmen Universe); however, you do not agree with this (which is your opinion and that's perfectly fine), and I think it is safe to say that you feel this is crossing a line.

that bolded part, I actually agree on that, thats why said in the Worst Top 10 i did, the relaunch gives the opportunity to grab the best possible character traits of the character to remake him as a new version, the worst books of the relaunched failed on that

thats what happen here, Krul didnt used the best parts of Atom, he just used Dr Manhattan as the model, the whole concept of "now he is a human god, etc" thats not what Atom was about, he had this idea of being a soldier, or being incriminated without a chance, or being a hero out of his own time, and that he was losing his own humanity by losing his human senses but not because he was a God or something, that was really good, and that has nothing to do with Manhattan

Manhattan worked well on Watchmen cause of how the character was presented and used in that universe, but in DC he had no purpose at all

So in your mind, when Johns draws from Moore's works on GL it is "expanding", but when Krul draw's from Moore's Watchmen it's a "rip-off".

Its completely different, Moore's works on Green Lantern were already In-continuity for the most part, In case you didnt knew, Moore created Mogo, Johns is not ripping him off only cause he is using Mogo, its the same case for the 5 inversions and the blackest night, Moore just had this 5 galactic demons that predicted a big catastrophic event, Johns just borrowed from that to create that event, but such event was his own idea, and also the multiple lanterns are his own concept to make it work

However Moore used the concept of Captain Atom to create Dr Manhattan, Krul just practically stole the same idea

Is this because they're in different universes, because you feel the character's (Dr.Manhattan and Capt. Atom) are unrelated, or because one was well done and the other was garbage? [Just so I'm clear I don't mean any offense by this. I just want to understand the your reasoning behind your decision.]

I am NOT defending Krul writing or this series (it's bad), just talking about the notion that Capt.Atom is a rip-off of Dr.Manhattan. [To be honest I was surprised he got a series.]

Its mainly cause is very Lazy writing, I really want to know if it was Krul's idea to make it like Manhattan or it was an editors choice but its obvious that it was a task that went completely over his head, cause Why the hell would anyone read this comic instead of actually reading one of the most acclaim comic books of all Time, I guess this was suppouse to cash into the whole watchmen thing but it obviously fail, this title just by pure luck wasnt cancelled in the first wave and it was the worst selling title of DC for months

I would had love to see a Captain Atom Series if it was anything like he was in JL:GL, Winick was the perfect writer for this ongoing and DC failed hard

PS-"Well technically Atrocious wasn't created by Moore, but he created The Five Inversions who foretell the Blackest Night, i don't remember if Atrocious is refer by name there but i do know is a concept made by Moore" Thanks for sharing, I didn't know that, that's really cool- made my day ;)'s

you are welcome

also, did you know that Moore created Mogo, and was actually one of the few writers who competently used Jason Todd as Robin where he even saved Superman's life

#187 Posted by sgcomicguy (89 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad: Ok I think I get what you saying, thanks. Would you have approved of Capt.Atom's new series had it ripped off Watchmen BUT been written well (say by someone like Johns)?

Ya I did know he created Mongo, but I didn't know about him using Jason to save Superman! That was recently referenced in Red Hood and the Outlaws #14. Do you know what issue or story arc it happened???

#188 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@sgcomicguy said:

@arnoldoaad: Ok I think I get what you saying, thanks. Would you have approved of Capt.Atom's new series had it ripped off Watchmen BUT been written well (say by someone like Johns)?

Ofcourse not, cause like i been saying, Captain Atom should NOT be like Dr Manhattan, a well written ripoff is still a ripoff

In my personal preference i would preffer him to still have his body cover in alien metal and coming from the 60s

Ya I did know he created Mongo, but I didn't know about him using Jason to save Superman! That was recently referenced in Red Hood and the Outlaws #14. Do you know what issue or story arc it happened???

Yeah, thats from "The Man Who Has Everything", Is a Superman Annual but i dont remember the # of it

its one of Moore's best works, it even got adapted in the JL cartoon, but they changed a ton of stuff from it

#189 Posted by sgcomicguy (89 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad: I think I found it here, its #11 : http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Superman_Annual_Vol_1_11

lol isn't all of Moore's stuff his best work? I mean I challenge anyone to find stuff that wasn't good :P

Thanks for the info, this is really cool :)

#190 Posted by KZR (487 posts) - - Show Bio

With some of the new origins and redesigns of some of my favourite characters all I can do is shake my head. For shame DC, for shame.

Although I'm not hating the new 52. It's not too bad and I'm enjoying a few comics. But let's be honest, they could've done better.

This edit will also create new pages on Comic Vine for:

Beware, you are proposing to add brand new pages to the wiki along with your edits. Make sure this is what you intended. This will likely increase the time it takes for your changes to go live.

Comment and Save

Until you earn 1000 points all your submissions need to be vetted by other Comic Vine users. This process takes no more than a few hours and we'll send you an email once approved.