Off My Mind: Why We Need to Know DC's Full 'New 52' History

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Posted by G-Man (36776 posts) - - Show Bio

The New 52 was meant to be a way to jump start the DC Universe. It was a way to take the familiar characters and make them more new-reader friendly. A lot of the characters have been around for close to seventy years. Even though the last major reboot of the DC Universe in CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS was just over twenty-five years ago, so much has happened and today's comics can be daunting for new readers.

The answer was to start things over in a way. It wasn't a complete reset or do over as some of the characters retained their previous histories and we've seen some others that have remained pretty close. The problem is we haven't been completely told what has or hasn't happened with many characters. We're not sure what is staying the same or whose origin is going to be completely changed. The comics may be new-reader friendly but they don't really seem old-reader friendly. Some changes we're seeing feel like they were a last minute change and we've already seen conflicts within titles in less than two years.

We were given a rough 'five year' time period in which most of the superheroes were established. In that period, we've been able to, for the most part, assume that most of what happened before could have somehow still happened. As the new stories unfold, we're seeing that isn't always the case and in other situations, we're discovering that there's no way key events could have happened. What DC needs to do is firmly establish the history of the New 52.

== TEASER ==

Some may say we shouldn't get hung up on the past. Worry about continuity is just a way to nitpick at the stories. It's difficult to look forward when we're not sure what has happened in the past. What was Batman and Poison Ivy's first encounter like? Did Superman die fighting Doomsday? If so, how much did it affect Lois? Did Nightwing ever lead a team of heroes? What changes happened to the Blackest Night and Brightest Day stories? Was Coast City destroyed? What was the Flash's first encounter with the Rogues?

NIGHTWING #1

These questions could be answered in the regular comics. Sometimes we'll see little mentions such as Dick Grayson saying in NIGHTWING #1 that he just finished filling in for Batman. But why did he decided to wear read on when going back to his Nightwing persona?

We've already seen some back peddling in some stories. We know about the change of Tim Drake never having been called Robin and was always known as Red Robin despite mention in BATMAN #1 and TEEN TITANS #1. The fact that the reference was erased in the TEEN TITANS trade is insulting to readers and makes us wonder why the change was needed. If there is a bigger reason and an upcoming story, that's fine. It just feels as if changes are happening with no rhyme or reason. It's hard for readers to have faith in the characters and their histories when what we've seen DURING THE NEW 52 is already being reverted.

Then there's other changes to characters origins that feel like they've just been thrown at us. Are we going to see a bigger reason why Catwoman's history has been completely retooled? If you know her history over the decades (or watched our 3-Minute Expert video), you know she has had a few different origins in the SIlver and Golden Ages as well in BATMAN: YEAR ONE. When changes like this are made, is everyone on board with them? We're starting to get the feeling that everything we know or think we know about the characters is susceptible of being completely changed.

Mr. Freeze got a chilling new origin in BATMAN ANNUAL #1

Change isn't always a bad thing. If handled properly, it could be a big benefit in fleshing out and modernizing characters. Seeing Barry Allen's early days or Mr. Freeze's origin have been highlights in the New 52. Wonder Woman has been going through big changes and I can't remember the last time people raved about her series this much. What many readers simply want are answers.

Last September DC had their 'zero month.' All issues had a zero issue looking back at the characters' origin or early days. It was one way to give us some of the answers that we've been looking for. If you look at the Diamond sales estimates for August, September and October, you can see that sales did go up for most titles. People do want to know where their favorite characters are coming from. I've proposed a year ago that I'd love for one of the Batman titles to go back and explore the early days. Maybe a full fledge 'year one' series might be too much but there are too many questions and last minute changes happening.

That's a good question, Selina. (From CATWOMAN #0)

What we need is a firmly established outline for the characters. If changes are going to be made, I want everyone on board with them. Seeing Catwoman as a Russian orphan or Tim Drake having a different last name just feels like it was thrown at us without a clear explanation. Instead of seeing random obscure characters given new titles in the next 'wave' of New 52 books, maybe we should have something explore the early days. Perhaps DC could bring back SECRET ORIGINS to firmly establish what has or hasn't happened.

Harley Quinn's New 52 makeover.

You can only do a character's origin once. At least that's the idea. Having changes made a year or so after the New 52 started just feels sloppy. Having the histories written in stone now may limit what future writers may want to do but established histories are pretty much what we always had in comics. Even Marvel's attempt to jump start their comics with Marvel NOW! isn't retooling characters' origins. DC needs to lay down the framework for their characters rather than have a random change occur that could result in a disaster.

Some of us may be hung up on the past but these characters have always had rich histories. It's time to sit down and iron out all the details. We can't have changes made left and right whenever a writer or editor feels like it. It's undermining the aesthetics of the DC characters we all love. You have to have a strong foundation before you can start building. If DC wants the New 52 to last, they need to convince us there is a framework for the entire universe. We don't need all the answers. There can still be some surprises. We just need some answers and an indication that there is a plan for everything.

#1 Posted by Spidermac17 (36 posts) - - Show Bio

Totally Agreed, the idea of having four robins within five years or so seems a little ridiculous too...

#2 Posted by jacksonvillewriter (44 posts) - - Show Bio

@Spidermac17: Not to mention the total time paradox that is Damian Wayne. How can Batman have a 10 year old son with the daughter of a villain if he's only been Batman for six or seven years?

#3 Posted by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

Let's face it. They have created a mess and they do not know how to fix it. They do not know what did or did not happen. They're just making things up as they go.

#4 Posted by cuddles666 (310 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarthShap said:

Let's face it. They have created a mess and they do not know how to fix it. They do not know what did or did not happen. They're just making things up as they go.

Word. I love how DC is suddenly hellbent on keeping current continuity now that fans are begging them for another retcon. It's like One More Day on a cosmic scale.

#5 Posted by jaybcd (4 posts) - - Show Bio

Though I agree at most points, I think they've done a really great job so far. Like you said, most of the characters are 70 years old or so, and in that long haul of 70 years many things happened and telling us what happened or not maybe is too big of a risk for DC. We should trust them writers. Just my 2 cents on this.

#6 Posted by SoA (4928 posts) - - Show Bio

time for the the New New 52...

#7 Posted by leokearon (1836 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacksonvillewriter said:

@Spidermac17: Not to mention the total time paradox that is Damian Wayne. How can Batman have a 10 year old son with the daughter of a villain if he's only been Batman for six or seven years?

Damian is a test tube baby so his aging could have been accelerated

#8 Posted by mpierce2690 (316 posts) - - Show Bio

@Spidermac17 said:

Totally Agreed, the idea of having four robins within five years or so seems a little ridiculous too...

But then who get's cut? That's where the problem lies. I'd have cut either Drake or Damian, but Drake has a huge following and unless you kick out Morrison's run (and you know how DC loves Morrison) you can't cut Damian.

@jacksonvillewriter said:

@Spidermac17: Not to mention the total time paradox that is Damian Wayne. How can Batman have a 10 year old son with the daughter of a villain if he's only been Batman for six or seven years?

I've been saying accelerated growth to keep myself from crying at night.

Personally, I'd love a four-to-six issue Secret Origin for all of the major characters. Nothing too in-depth, just more of a recap of the last five years that will show the highlights and that shouldn't be too hard. Release them like the Before Watchmen books. Not a perfect solution, but a simple and acceptable one.

#9 Posted by kid Apollo (714 posts) - - Show Bio

"Some of us may be hung up on the past but these characters have always had rich histories. It's time to sit down and iron out all the details. We can't have changes made left and right whenever a writer or editor feels like it. It's undermining the aesthetics of the DC characters we all love. You have to have a strong foundation before you can start building. If DC wants the New 52 to last, they need to convince us there is a framework for the entire universe. We don't need all the answers. There can still be some surprises. We just need some answers and an indication that there is a plan for everything."

well said, i agree completely

#10 Posted by cborg (51 posts) - - Show Bio

I've been saying this from the start. The books are far from new reader friendly, at least us pre-flashpoint readers have SOME idea of what characters are talking about when they casually mention past events, new readers like my brother are just lost and confused. If DC wanted to make a new reader friendly restart they should have A) "Ultimate Universe Style" scrapped all history and start from scratch, showing all events and first meetings of any given characters as they went OR B) "Astro City Style" start at some arbitrary point in the timeline (ie 5 years later) but have a clearly drawn out history in mind, regardless of whether they reveal it up front. Although Astro City series come out years apart and all the details are rarely laid out in advance of a plot you almost never feel like Busiek is making it up as he goes along. He teases past events long before revealing the specifics establishing a feel that a real history took place, rather than being aloof and completely unwilling to nail down that ANY event has occurred as DC has.

#11 Edited by Raw_Material (3298 posts) - - Show Bio

As long as the character's origins I idolize are not changed in a big way, or at all. Although, some changes are set to do good within the character if given the right direction and outlook. One of which is Aquaman who has undertaken some changes such as redesigning of his suit, restructuring of the character, and rebuilding of his fame to becoming one of the greatest superheroes we all know and love.

#12 Edited by FoxxFireArt (3559 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm sure they'd be glad to tell people what it is. Just as soon as they're done making it up. I don't think they gave much thought to the framework of the timeline.

If Lois never knew Clark was Superman and he's only been Superman for about five years. I don't see how she could have been at all effected by the "Death of Superman". I doubt that story even happened now. Why would all the other Supermen be trying to prove they were the real ones to Lois?

The Red Robin has to be one of the silliest changes. Bruce didn't want a Robin, but adding an adjective was enough of a change?

I can't wait for some writer to come along and undo what Nocenti has done to Catwoman. Whatever problems Frank Miller has in his real life. He still made a perfectly workable origin for her. Just leave out "Her Sister's Keeper" additions.

I really don't care about any new origin for Mr. Freeze other than what Paul Dini did in BATMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES.

#13 Edited by lifeboy (1675 posts) - - Show Bio

Good questions tony but some how I dont really care about continuity. I dont take comics seriously. In fact i like the silver age when storiies were self contained. I am a fan but I am not a hardcore fan that needs to know all the intricacies. Somethings I just leave to my ima gination. I would however like to see more zero issue types on a all 52 level. I enjoyed those stories.

#14 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

Its just a very simple principle, You need to build the foundations first

there are 3 things that are killing the New 52 and those are: Indecision, bad choices and the 5 year jump

First they say that Tim Drake was robin, then he wasnt, then Teen Titans existed in the past then it didnt, both ideas have their merits, their pros and cons but its obvious thatthey didnt knew which one to choose in the first place

then they try to innovate their characters, there is nothing wrong with that, but they do it by giving them to writers who obviously dont have the capacity to reinvent them, Like JT Krul reinventing Captain Atom as a Doctor Manhattan rip-off, and then Green Arrow as steve jobs with a bow, or choose Liefeld to reinvent not 1 but 4 of your properties, pretty much wrecking them all, and thats not even touching Catwoman, she is just no longer a character worthy of an ongoing

the relaunch is a great idea on paper, it gives the chance to create the best version possible of the characters that DC has to offer, but it didnt work on many cases

and finally the 5 year timeline is not only annoying but suffocating, I understand why DC did it, they are not thinking on next year or 2, they were thinking of the next 10-20 years, but there was just no worst way to do this, the things that it did to Batmans timeline just choose how little planing there was behind this, Zero Month was a complete disaster for Batman

DC did a mistake with the relaunch on many cases, and there is just no way to correct it in an organic way.

I believe the best titles in the relaunch were those that just really had conscious and consistent idea of not only where they were going to but where they were coming from. and DC needs to realize that without that firm ground underneath their feet, what they are planning to do wont work at all.

#15 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@leokearon said:

@jacksonvillewriter said:

@Spidermac17: Not to mention the total time paradox that is Damian Wayne. How can Batman have a 10 year old son with the daughter of a villain if he's only been Batman for six or seven years?

Damian is a test tube baby so his aging could have been accelerated

Test tube conception doesnt work like that

besides, it would be stupid to have him accelerate his age to Age 10 for practically no reason, hell even tomasi show him having several birthdays

#16 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29510 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad said:

Test tube conception doesnt work like that

You need to take a breath and smell the comic book logic.

#17 Edited by Zeeguy91 (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

Was Mr. Freeze's reveal really a new origin? I mean, for all we know he's still been running around for years trying to find the secret to revive his "wife" in the exact same way he was before the reboot. All that Snyder really did was reveal a new detail. But, even so, this new reveal doesn't really invalidate the past stories with Freeze in them.

#18 Posted by Zeeguy91 (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad said:

@leokearon said:

@jacksonvillewriter said:

@Spidermac17: Not to mention the total time paradox that is Damian Wayne. How can Batman have a 10 year old son with the daughter of a villain if he's only been Batman for six or seven years?

Damian is a test tube baby so his aging could have been accelerated

Test tube conception doesnt work like that

besides, it would be stupid to have him accelerate his age to Age 10 for practically no reason, hell even tomasi show him having several birthdays

Yeah, the whole five-year time frame is stupid and was only something DC instituted because some of the fans were whining "what happened when??" IMO, they should have just said, "Here's the reboot. Some things are different, some are the same. Figure out what went where on your own."

#19 Posted by Scantenii (66 posts) - - Show Bio

This article has a good point... Personally I thought a series of graphic novels would be a good way to fill in the blanks (which there are a lot.)... The issue zero's were a good idea, but they didn't go far enough... the flashbacks could even be narrated by Phantom Stranger and Pandora ,because they seem to be pushing them on us whether we like the characters or not... I don't think whatever they do should be called "year one" though... Use your brain DC and think of something else...

#20 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@InnerVenom123 said:

@arnoldoaad said:

Test tube conception doesnt work like that

You need to take a breath and smell the comic book logic.

you know what is the difference between reality and fiction?

Fiction must make sense

#21 Posted by ComicMan24 (147093 posts) - - Show Bio

IMO the biggest mistake they are doing with the New 52 is trying to put everything in these 5 years after the majority of the superheroes appeared. And I suppose that this is ok for heroes that had their histories completely rewritten like Superman or Wonder Woman but when it comes to others like the Bat-Family where several things remained after the reboot, just trying to say that all these happened in only 5 years is at least laughable. For example are we supposed to believe that Batman changed so many sidekicks in such short (even taking in account the Red Robin retcon)? They should have either left it vague and not make it so restricting with this whole 5 year thing, increase the years like 8-10 which at least would some more sense or at least completely reboot everything and start fresh. Sure a lot would have hated that last option a lot because if for example everybody thought that Oracle being Batgirl again was a big step back for her character, imagine how they would react if Dick Grayson was Robin again lol But still imo that would still be better than seeing them trying to patch up things when it comes to the new continuity in such a bad, I could say, way.

#22 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29510 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad said:

@InnerVenom123 said:

@arnoldoaad said:

Test tube conception doesnt work like that

You need to take a breath and smell the comic book logic.

you know what is the difference between reality and fiction?

Fiction must make sense

You have a very bleak view of fiction.

#23 Posted by ComicMan24 (147093 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad said:

@InnerVenom123 said:

@arnoldoaad said:

Test tube conception doesnt work like that

You need to take a breath and smell the comic book logic.

you know what is the difference between reality and fiction?

Fiction must make sense

Not necessarily really. Sure it would be ideal but sometimes not making sense in fiction actually works.

#24 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@InnerVenom123 said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@InnerVenom123 said:

@arnoldoaad said:

Test tube conception doesnt work like that

You need to take a breath and smell the comic book logic.

you know what is the difference between reality and fiction?

Fiction must make sense

You have a very bleak view of fiction.

Actually thats a quote from Tom Clancy, which in turn was him paraphrasing Mark Twain

point is: even if its fiction there must be a reason why He had to be artificially aged other than:

"LOL the 5YL timeframe screwed Batman"

#25 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29510 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad said:

point is: even if its fiction there must be a reason why He had to be artificially aged other than:

"LOL the 5YL timeframe screwed Batman"

You're ignoring the reason* proposed?

It's not like it doesn't make sense. Talia's a crazy b*tch, who knows what growth hormones she may or may not have put into him.

I personally don't think of it like that. I accept the DCnU's absurd timeline the same way anyone could accept the absurd timeline of New Earth (Bruce being too young, and all). But it's a valid explanation.

*"He was grown artificially so he probably ages faster."

#26 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@InnerVenom123 said:

@arnoldoaad said:

point is: even if its fiction there must be a reason why He had to be artificially aged other than:

"LOL the 5YL timeframe screwed Batman"

You're ignoring the reason* proposed?

It's not like it doesn't make sense. Talia's a crazy b*tch, who knows what growth hormones she may or may not have put into him.

I personally don't think of it like that. I accept the DCnU's absurd timeline the same way anyone could accept the absurd timeline of New Earth (Bruce being too young, and all). But it's a valid explanation.

*"He was grown artificially so he probably ages faster."

and he celebrated several birthdays in the span of just a couple of months, what would be the point, how would you know exactly when he is a year older and why stop accelerating his growth when he is 10 and not when he is 18 or 25 to be at the pinnacle of his abilities

besides even if you consider it an alternative timeline, the Batman 666 Damian seems to have the proper age in the proper time so he doesnt seem to age faster

Having him being artificially aged solves the problem of the timeline but brings new problems of its own, and I hope DC dont take such a bad route just cause they screw up batman's timeline

#27 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@ComicMan24 said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@InnerVenom123 said:

@arnoldoaad said:

Test tube conception doesnt work like that

You need to take a breath and smell the comic book logic.

you know what is the difference between reality and fiction?

Fiction must make sense

Not necessarily really. Sure it would be ideal but sometimes not making sense in fiction actually works.

Fiction that doesnt make sense is just poorly written fiction and i never read a book like that where not making sense works

#28 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29510 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad: They could change it up just to save their asses and then make it normal. Say Damian only ages faster until a certain age? That solves the Batman 666 problem right there.

#29 Posted by sethysquare (3843 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad said:

@InnerVenom123 said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@InnerVenom123 said:

@arnoldoaad said:

Test tube conception doesnt work like that

You need to take a breath and smell the comic book logic.

you know what is the difference between reality and fiction?

Fiction must make sense

You have a very bleak view of fiction.

Actually thats a quote from Tom Clancy, which in turn was him paraphrasing Mark Twain

point is: even if its fiction there must be a reason why He had to be artificially aged other than:

"LOL the 5YL timeframe screwed Batman"

I dont really think it screwed batman, it did confuse certain stuff like test tube babies but it did improve on certain stuff which is making bruce younger. In the old universe he is about 40 plus? 50? Its a little impractical.

Theres 2 sides of the coin to both time lines. But it is indeed difficult for batman since he has like 1 million and one side kicks. Personally, I think Damian shouldnt have existed.

#30 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@sethysquare said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@InnerVenom123 said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@InnerVenom123 said:

@arnoldoaad said:

Test tube conception doesnt work like that

You need to take a breath and smell the comic book logic.

you know what is the difference between reality and fiction?

Fiction must make sense

You have a very bleak view of fiction.

Actually thats a quote from Tom Clancy, which in turn was him paraphrasing Mark Twain

point is: even if its fiction there must be a reason why He had to be artificially aged other than:

"LOL the 5YL timeframe screwed Batman"

I dont really think it screwed batman, it did confuse certain stuff like test tube babies but it did improve on certain stuff which is making bruce younger. In the old universe he is about 40 plus? 50? Its a little impractical.

Theres 2 sides of the coin to both time lines. But it is indeed difficult for batman since he has like 1 million and one side kicks. Personally, I think Damian shouldnt have existed.

Bruce was 35 in the old universe, Morrison deaged him a bit so that everything could fit into his timeline,

and Damian would had been deleted if Morrison's Batman wasnt such a success

@InnerVenom123 said:

@arnoldoaad: They could change it up just to save their asses and then make it normal. Say Damian only ages faster until a certain age? That solves the Batman 666 problem right there.

Its just such a ridiculously complicated solution for such a simple problem

just increase the timeline to 12 years for Batman instead of 7-6, problem solve

there is absolutely nothing wrong with Batman being a little older and have a son

#31 Posted by hunter5024 (128 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel like not establishing this stuff gives the writers more freedom, and by leaving elements of the past open to question they are creating a wealth of story potential for down the line. I don't know how they could go about explaining a five year time span without devoting some serious time to it in the main books though, and I feel like doing that would really kill the momentum of this new universe, as it did in a lot of books during zero month. Maybe they could release a page or two of explanation in each comic book, but wouldn't that kind of kill any opportunity they had of telling those stories in the future? I understand mysteries can be frustrating Tony, but I think you would enjoy the comics more if you just quit worrying about the continuity and focused on the current stories.

#32 Posted by Twentyfive (2845 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, they are working on the full history. That's why they keep making the comic books, right?

Kidding aside, the gaps don't really bother me, but I'm not a comic 'purist' at all. As long as they bring us good stories, I am fine. What Batman got for Christmas in the 5 years since he became known as a hero does not concern me in the least.

#33 Posted by Xorion (446 posts) - - Show Bio

after 'revived by cats' origin I really don't wanna know what happened before. So I think it's better to go without changing the past and going further.

#34 Posted by doordoor123 (3721 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't agree with any of this article.

Why do we need to know? Things are still happening. When the past isn't too clearly defined, it lays the footwork for better stories.

Most books don't start exactly at the starting point. They start where the action is. The past is a story element that needs to be mysterious to be utilized. It is a tunnel with no end. They could pretty much say anything happened within that time we don't know and it could pave the way for a number of stories. It is a great thing for the writers and the readers shouldn't have to read the same sh*t with no consequence.

And Tony, I think you're interpreting the word "foundation" wrongly. It has a foundation of a story, but it doesn't have the "foundation" that you want. Unfortunately, that foundation ruins stories.

#35 Posted by Hojo49er (3 posts) - - Show Bio

they should have let the 5 year timeline apply to the justice league only. let superman become the first officially public superhero, let batman and robin (dick grayson at least) be more like urban legends. they could go the smallville route and let superman operate in secret a couple of years before officially "coming out" while batman is in his early years as an urband lengend around the same time with most of that time with dick grayson. superman comes out, everyone else follows sometime later inspired by his example. when the new 52 came out i thought it would be cool and make sense to me that dick grayson was in his last year of being robin when the justice league formed and that batman had been around for 5 years prior to that as a myth. once again like in smallville superman could have operated for a short time as a myth as well. i think back up stories in the regular titles could shed some light on the unclear things and allow for exploration of the past of these characters. ps ... i liked smallvile. it introduced me to a lot of characters and made me want to reserch them on wikipedia and sites like this since i hadnt heard of a lot of them. it got me into comics in general and i wouldnt be making my first post on here if i hadn't watched the show.

#36 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@doordoor123 said:

I don't agree with any of this article.

Why do we need to know? Things are still happening. When the past isn't too clearly defined, it lays the footwork for better stories.

Most books don't start exactly at the starting point. They start where the action is. The past is a story element that needs to be mysterious to be utilized. It is a tunnel with no end. They could pretty much say anything happened within that time we don't know and it could pave the way for a number of stories. It is a great thing for the writers and the readers shouldn't have to read the same sh*t with no consequence.

And Tony, I think you're interpreting the word "foundation" wrongly. It has a foundation of a story, but it doesn't have the "foundation" that you want. Unfortunately, that foundation ruins stories.

I think the necessity of a foundation for the story comes from the fact that eventually a writer is going to need it, and if such foundation is nothing but this random thing that no one knows that it is exactly then 2 writes can make the mistake of writing 2 completely contradictory things

ergo the problem with Drake and the Teen Titans, Lodbell thought that TT existed before and Tim was robin, and then it didnt

or the current problem with Damian

Its just obvious that Morrison and Tomasi were using their own timeline while Snyder and Tynion are using another one and Hurwitz was using another one

#37 Posted by brightstarr731 (32 posts) - - Show Bio

The point in a reboot is to look forward. Let them flesh their stories out over time. It has been a little over a year since the New 52 occurred. Some writers are handling it better than others. Some editors are handling it better than others. Just buy the issues you enjoy, and read the reviews on the ones you think you might. It is entertainment. If you aren't being entertained then it sounds like you should stop reading New 52 comics. Fan boys suck!

#38 Edited by OutlawRenegade (1251 posts) - - Show Bio

They should have done a full reboot. 1 robin. Cyborg and Wonder Woman as old as everyone else on the JL (27-33). New Green Lantern writer.

#39 Posted by liquid3601 (19 posts) - - Show Bio

The only reason these "questions" exist is because they already happened in a dead continuity. Move on. Be happy getting hints as to what happened in the past and having things spoon fed to you over the course of the new continuity because that's what the New 52 is. A reboot. A restart. Assume nothing happened until told otherwise.

In the end it's unimportant. Comics are unimportant and comic continuity is unimportant and it changes constantly on the whims of creators (as Grant Morrison so maniacally showed us in his Animal Man run). You need to stop nitpicking the past and just enjoy the ride moving forward because DC is more worried about the next issue, not all the issues that came before it. The next issue is going to pay the bills and keep the lights on and keep the comics medium alive.

#40 Posted by Eyz (3095 posts) - - Show Bio

..because it's starting to get both confusing and contradictory from one book to another.

@OutlawRenegade said:

They should have done a full reboot. 1 robin. Cyborg and Wonder Woman as old as everyone else on the JL. New Green Lantern writer.

exactly!

#41 Posted by JimmyOlsen1 (153 posts) - - Show Bio

It's time to move back to the good old New Earth. Earth Prime should be just another Earth of the DC Multiverse ... that would be awesome. :/ I don't know ... there are some really cool new characters like Starling or Bunker ... but yeah ... I really miss the old comic books. I don't really enjoy one of them anymore. At the moment I just enjoy Smallville Season 11 ...

#42 Posted by Lvenger (20732 posts) - - Show Bio

Couldn't agree more. Although there are a lot of things I love about the New 52, there are a lot of things I hate too, this being chief among them. I try to ignore the glaring errors and enjoy the stories but that hardly works. There's a part of me that nags at how certain events could have happened and whether particular stories occurred or not in the New 52. It just doesn't make sense. Plus some of the changes have been bad. Tim Drake has been ruined, not gonna lie there and so have many other characters. A clear history has not been set out and that is what is needed otherwise this problem will never go away.

#43 Posted by Kesho_Ronin (209 posts) - - Show Bio

I like the new52.Yeah all characters have there 20 years of story arcs but all those readers from that time are getting old so to me dc has done this restarting t universe for the new comic book readers.i think it would be great if nothin has happen from past (superman doomsday,knightfall,coast city destroyed,crisis and death of batman) because they can approach those stories a little differentjust look at superman,his origins are totally different from old comic books.in a good way.i don't like marvel because they have sooo many tie in story arcs it confusing sometimes.

But if this "new 52" project doesn't go well then they can all ways use pandora to return to the old ways but that would be just stupid.what's done is done.i just hope they keep up the good work that the dc staff has done so far.

#44 Posted by ME24601 (118 posts) - - Show Bio

At the very least, they should tell their writers what has and has not happened. The continuity screw ups have been absurd, especially from Scott Lobdel's comics.

#45 Edited by Lurkero (202 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the DC reboot was meant to convince readers that things were going to change in a way that was much bigger than they actually were. What really happened is that DC wanted to sell more comic books so they told people to buy them all to see all the changes and then DC writers made up changes on the fly.

If DC was serious about this reboot they would have sat down and plotted a cohesive course for all major DC characters, past and present, starting from the beginning of the earliest character history. Instead they tacked on changes to the existing universe and didn't worry about inconsistencies.

This makes me think about how long Professor Xavier and Magneto will have origins in World War 2. At some point those characters will either need to permanently die or be re-written for modern audiences.

#46 Posted by Differentology (33 posts) - - Show Bio

I know it may seem rushed but they can shed light on all the characters if they use the 5ry time line. That is if they do it right. Also they could be able to keep all robins with out cutting out any body. The only thing is that they might have to change some ages of the characters and they would be so minute that it'll still match up to the original with very little differences.

#47 Posted by SlamAdams (301 posts) - - Show Bio

I think people are reading too much into "Tim was always Red Robin" thing. I was pretty sure he was wearing a regular Robin costume at the end of his origin and was pretty much the same guy as Batman's sidekick. He just happened to say "Call me Red Robin" which is more unnecessary than damning. The way he become Robin was probably more damning.

#48 Posted by doordoor123 (3721 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad said:

@doordoor123 said:

I don't agree with any of this article.

Why do we need to know? Things are still happening. When the past isn't too clearly defined, it lays the footwork for better stories.

Most books don't start exactly at the starting point. They start where the action is. The past is a story element that needs to be mysterious to be utilized. It is a tunnel with no end. They could pretty much say anything happened within that time we don't know and it could pave the way for a number of stories. It is a great thing for the writers and the readers shouldn't have to read the same sh*t with no consequence.

And Tony, I think you're interpreting the word "foundation" wrongly. It has a foundation of a story, but it doesn't have the "foundation" that you want. Unfortunately, that foundation ruins stories.

I think the necessity of a foundation for the story comes from the fact that eventually a writer is going to need it, and if such foundation is nothing but this random thing that no one knows that it is exactly then 2 writes can make the mistake of writing 2 completely contradictory things

ergo the problem with Drake and the Teen Titans, Lodbell thought that TT existed before and Tim was robin, and then it didnt

or the current problem with Damian

Its just obvious that Morrison and Tomasi were using their own timeline while Snyder and Tynion are using another one and Hurwitz was using another one

I'm not really sure how that has anything to do with what I am talking about. Continuity in the present is important, but just because things happened in the past doesn't mean present continuity is important. I think what you're trying to get at here is that editors need to do their job. They need to be able to know what is happening in their book a year from the point they start so there isn't any continuity errors.

These mistakes are all the editor's fault. They need to do their homework.

I'm not really sure about Morrison's Batman. It seems really out of place, but is still somehow connected to everything. I think it is just a big mess continuity-wise because no one tells him no.

All the other Batman books are happening in the same timeline, but at different times. I didn't think it was that hard to figure out.

The foundation should be the universe. Not the timeline. There is time and space -- the universe is space. Space is the foundation. Not time.

#49 Posted by SUNMAN (7256 posts) - - Show Bio

funny how all the continuity issues seem to stem from Batbook related characters.

I'm of the mindset Teen Titans was just erased, so there is no issue there.

#50 Posted by sethysquare (3843 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad said:

@sethysquare said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@InnerVenom123 said:

@arnoldoaad said:

@InnerVenom123 said:

@arnoldoaad said:

Test tube conception doesnt work like that

You need to take a breath and smell the comic book logic.

you know what is the difference between reality and fiction?

Fiction must make sense

You have a very bleak view of fiction.

Actually thats a quote from Tom Clancy, which in turn was him paraphrasing Mark Twain

point is: even if its fiction there must be a reason why He had to be artificially aged other than:

"LOL the 5YL timeframe screwed Batman"

I dont really think it screwed batman, it did confuse certain stuff like test tube babies but it did improve on certain stuff which is making bruce younger. In the old universe he is about 40 plus? 50? Its a little impractical.

Theres 2 sides of the coin to both time lines. But it is indeed difficult for batman since he has like 1 million and one side kicks. Personally, I think Damian shouldnt have existed.

Bruce was 35 in the old universe, Morrison deaged him a bit so that everything could fit into his timeline,

and Damian would had been deleted if Morrison's Batman wasnt such a success

@InnerVenom123 said:

@arnoldoaad: They could change it up just to save their asses and then make it normal. Say Damian only ages faster until a certain age? That solves the Batman 666 problem right there.

Its just such a ridiculously complicated solution for such a simple problem

just increase the timeline to 12 years for Batman instead of 7-6, problem solve

there is absolutely nothing wrong with Batman being a little older and have a son

was there any page that said he was 35 before the reboot? How could he be 35 when he spent like 5 years away to train as batman? raised up like 3 kids after which.

If he left at 21 and came back at 26, the old timeline was such that when Dick grew up, he left to be nightwing before jason took over. Dick was adopted at what 12? then left at 19? thats 7 more years and bruce would have been 33, then another 5 years with jason, 38, then another few years with Tim, not to mention, he 'died' for 2 years and had dick took over being batman.

He would've been 40 plus.

If they increase Batman's age to 35, there still would've been a problem, because then how long did he train to be batman? could he have trained for just 1 year? how old would he have started? 21? When he is back he would've been 26, youngest, thats when he'll meet Superman 5 years ago. Then how long would he have mentored Dick? Squeeze mentoring 4 Robins in 9 years would still be a stretch.

Just face it, both time line sucks.

Jason died 25 years ago, its impossible for Batman to have been so young, there would always be screw ups.

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