I remember and miss a lot the pre-New 52. Bring back our heroes, DC, the New 52 sucks!!

@ssejllenrad: They need a guy name "Lance". Then they can go shopping for shoes after lunch, and dancing after that.

The only thing I like about the new 52 is Stormwatch (which a lot of people don't, hmmmmm). The idea of merging the 3 universes is cool, but I think most books just pretty much suck, except for Batman, which hasn't really changed. Like Night of Owls couldn't have been written pre-52. Superman is still a weak book. Cyborg on the Justice League still doesn't feel comfortable to some readers, and Liefeld is killing books like a Nazi on gas duty. I hope they use the note real soon, because I'm pissed. Oh well. There's a reason I keep saying "Make Mine Marvel" I bet downloading is at an all time high right now with the crap that's being written DC. The money will only last for so long. Even the second wave isn't getting anywhere near the attention the 1st wave did.

It's doubtful that they know. At the most, they just know that Flashpoint happened and assume that the way the universe currently exists is how it always existed.

I don't see a way that DC will go back to the old universe either. If the DCnU doesn't work as a whole I think it would be far better to use it as a loose canon where continuity does not count and create autonomous titles that could be changed or ended without damaging the whole cosmos around them, which helps since DCU is basically a multi-verse where you can do whatever you want as a creator. They can even separate everything and make their books vertigo style. I mean even rebooting the reboot for a new post 52 universe would look better than doing the reverse move and go back to the old universe which will look like DC admitting they are fools before everybody's eyes. Bringing back the old stuff could be terrible now they tossed them away in the first place.

I don't think they remember. I think Pre-New 52 happened but it was erased from their minds...but since Batman has the letter, who knows maybe he does. Maybe he's investigating it on the side, who knows...

It is a nice idea, it's a shame to erase the WHOLE history of the DCU.

@OldDude said:

I don't see a way that DC will go back to the old universe either. If the DCnU doesn't work as a whole I think it would be far better to use it as a loose canon where continuity does not count and create autonomous titles that could be changed or ended without damaging the whole cosmos around them, which helps since DCU is basically a multi-verse where you can do whatever you want as a creator. They can even separate everything and make their books vertigo style. I mean even rebooting the reboot for a new post 52 universe would look better than doing the reverse move and go back to the old universe which will look like DC admitting they are fools before everybody's eyes. Bringing back the old stuff could be terrible now they tossed them away in the first place.

Post-Crisis/Zero Hour, they had tossed away the continuities of the JLA, Wonder-Woman, the Legion and Hawkman, all of which came back in Infinite Crisis and were welcomed with open arms. The same could very happen for Trinity War, by the same Geoff Johns.

As for continuity, it is simply what sells books in the long run. Even new readers want to know what happens next when they close their first comics. And fans want the shared universe. So do publishers because it allows them to make crossovers so that the readers have to buy other titles, events and team books.

@DarthShap:I agree with keeping a tight continuity among books, I just said that to point out that anything would be better, and I by that mean anything, than go back to the old universe.

That being said I have no problem with books that emerge from crossovers and change or reintroduce characters but I don't like the crossovers themselves. I was never able to even finish reading the original crisis series and Zero Hour was just so awful I consider it to be the paragon of bad comics writing (the JSA dying like that from Extant because they just rushed to get him without forming a plan beforehand was so ridiculous and out of character, still makes me cringe). I think that it is impossible to effectively change a whole universe rules and history on a mini or maxi series.

Anyway if DC falls back into the old timeline it will be the most colossal failure ever, it will make the whole heroes reborn thing look normal...

@DarthShap said:

Post-Crisis/Zero Hour, they had tossed away the continuities of the JLA, Wonder-Woman, the Legion and Hawkman, all of which came back in Infinite Crisis and were welcomed with open arms. The same could very happen for Trinity War, by the same Geoff Johns.

It's very possible that DC has been monitoring what fans have reacted negatively to, or elements that have proven to be problematic from a story standpoint. The upcoming event may be used to reverse certain changes or further alter characters to make them more appealing to readers and easier to write.

I browsed DC's August solicits and it looks like most if not all books are concluding arcs that month, with September being the start of new arcs. With it being the one-year anniversary of the New 52, I have to wonder if September onward will be the prelude to Trinity War. If not, then virtually all books starting new arcs in the same month would seem odd.

I was thinking/talking about this recently

The real problem isn't that certain stories didn't happen. It's more that they have no relevance in the current DCnU history. They happened in another universe but they don't really affect this current universe except for the fact that one happened first.

It's like you pour yourself a glass of milk and accidentally spill it. You still want milk so you pour yourself another glass. That second glass wouldn't have been poured at that moment into that glass had the first one not been spilled, however the new glass of milk is still unique to itself and not an ancestor of the first (in the sense that they are different masses of milk, not the same original mass rearranged)

That is mostly how the New 52 works. It wouldn't have happened had the first DCU been "spilled" but it has it's own history and course of events. Basically one eternity filled the void left by the first eternity.

So I think most fans have a very valid excuse for being upset at the old history being erased, for as it did happen once, the effects that the readers found so satisfying no longer apply. For example, I loved the Huntress, but one of the stories that made me love her was "Cry for Blood" The way that story happened to her and what she went through during it really endeared me to the character. However, this story could in no way have happened for the current Huntress, so all the things I liked about the character are no longer relevant. It can't affect how we felt about the old stories whether or not they are still in continuity, but it can affect if we will like the stories still to come.

Then again, I suppose there really is no use crying over spilled milk.

Either way, I think the letter is more of a nod to the universe being more than what is seen than a back door "plan b". Barry and Bruce are certainly curious about what it could mean, but I doubt either of them would be able to make a decision to try and undo it. To both of them this current universe IS their universe. They will probably investigate things to learn what caused everything, but this world is the one they are accustomed to and I doubt they would try to change it.

Even if they both agreed that the original universe seemed better, neither of them would feel they had the right to change it. It might seem better to them, but who are they to choose how a whole universe of lives should run? They would never make that decision. Even if Bruce learned that a past universe had his parents still alive, he wouldn't change reality just to feel better for himself.

At least the letter will just be there for a sense of history greater than one universe, and at most it is there to show a pathway in which the DCoU is still intact just not in our focus. I highly doubt the second will be the case tho as it would be insulting to fans to say that it is all there without us getting to continue to follow it. Likewise it would be insulting to continue the DCnU with a few titles covering the ongoing events of the DCoU because they wouldn't be able to continue all stories and only a handful of readers would be pleased for the one book they really liked getting a chance to pick up where it left off.

I mean, I would love to have the old Teen Titans book back, but it certainly wouldn't be fair for it to return where others still left off when it has no more right than any of them to be revived.

In the end DC really just have to stay the course they've laid and gently tweak it as best they can until fans and sales are settled the best they can be, because even if they did switch out all the DCnU for the books running pre FP, the fans jumping back on would just cancel out the fans of the DCnU leaving. The reboot for the most part was just switching one group of fans for another while having some overlap in both groups.

I don't think Barry remembers any of the pre-Flashpoint universe. Through reading the current Flash series, he mentions he's only been Flash for five years, and I think if he remembered, he wouldn't be dating Patty Spivot.

@FinalAvalanche said:

@DarthShap said:

Post-Crisis/Zero Hour, they had tossed away the continuities of the JLA, Wonder-Woman, the Legion and Hawkman, all of which came back in Infinite Crisis and were welcomed with open arms. The same could very happen for Trinity War, by the same Geoff Johns.

It's very possible that DC has been monitoring what fans have reacted negatively to, or elements that have proven to be problematic from a story standpoint. The upcoming event may be used to reverse certain changes or further alter characters to make them more appealing to readers and easier to write.

I browsed DC's August solicits and it looks like most if not all books are concluding arcs that month, with September being the start of new arcs. With it being the one-year anniversary of the New 52, I have to wonder if September onward will be the prelude to Trinity War. If not, then virtually all books starting new arcs in the same month would seem odd.

According to Bleeding Cool, DC is planning #0 for September. Those could either be origin stories, fill the five years gap or fix continuity problems through RetCons.

Honestly I think they know a lot more that they are leading on, maybe they just can't remember them enough, Barry is the one that was there so he should know whats what, but what of the memories of Pre-Flashpoint? they maybe gone, but something tells me these two will remember Ted Kord, Wally west, and all the others that were forgotten.

I think that DC will revert it back after 5 years. 5 years is the magic time interval like 52 is the magic number.

Of course Barry is cognizant of the Pre-Flashpoint DCU, or what I have heard referred to as the Keystone Reality. It may be in the deep recesses of his mind where he will not have immediate recall, but it is there. Its a total backdoor and I'm of the opinion that if and when this whole New 52 reality becomes unpopular that Barry could have a relapse in memory of what once was. The idea is just too irresistible not to consider when Bruce has the same knowledge in the back of his mind as well. Still, there is this lingering idea in my mind that another possibility of this whole New 52 reality is just that ti is a figment of Barry's imagination concocted by Pandora...

Can anybody tell me, In which issue the above conversation between Batman (Bruce Wayne) and Flash happened in New52????

I have read almost every issue of New52 of Batman, Flash and Superman, but I don't know about this conversation.

@DarthShap said:

I do not think that DC would go back to pre-Flashpoint universe. Having said that, the Trinity War seems the perfect occasion to change reality once more to fix current continuity hiccups and bring back characters like Wally West. Basically what Infinite Crisis did to post-Crisis/Zero Hour New Earth for the JLA, Wonder-Woman, the Legion and Hawkman.

To me, it is definitely what Johns is trying to do here, hence the use of the Pandora character for the event.

'Shap, savor this moment, for I am about to say...<drumroll> I agree with you. <collective gasp>

...About them not going back to pre-Flashpoint, anyway. The New 52 seems to be doing well enough to sustain interest for some time to come. I don't think it's a home run, but I think it's scoring enough to win. Unfortunately, my finances are forcing me to be an interested observer on this - scraping enough together for only two or three titles (if that) when possible. So while I have been enjoying Nightwing and Wonder Woman, I won't see Trinity War except in reviews, and in TPB, if it makes it to that point (and then, probably from a library). I couldn't say one way or the other if I thought it might undo the New 52.

Considering what the New 52 has done to DC's sales, and despite how much I miss it, I think DC would be foolish to go back to pre-Flashpoint. It doesn't make good business sense, and I think it would be very off-putting to just about all fans - a slap in the face to those who embraced the New 52, and to fans of the pre-FP, it would be like DC was saying to them, "I knew you'd still be waiting for me if this new thing didn't work out" (I'm not waiting for you, pre-FP - I just haven't found anything else yet <sob>).

I don't think the New 52 is going anywhere, and for myself, I'm trying to appreciate the interpretations of loved characters for a new generation. I've been a little lost on Hawkman, ever since they usurped his series for Hawkgirl - I thought it was awesome up until that point, so I'm not sure what the heck DC was thinking. I've had no interest in the current version. I think New 52 will be around for awhile - possibly even long enough that we'll have to call it something besides "New 52" - the "DCU 52," or something.

I sure hope so. I think.

@btmt said:

Can anybody tell me, In which issue the above conversation between Batman (Bruce Wayne) and Flash happened in New52????

I have read almost every issue of New52 of Batman, Flash and Superman, but I don't know about this conversation.

It happened in Flashpoint #5 actually. ;)

if i was barry i would have wrote myself a note

@DarthShap: Thanks buddy for your reply.

There's some slight part of me that wants to say that the Flashpoint universe is still out there somewhere among the "New 52". IF you read Flashpoint: Green Lantern then you'll remember that at the very end of issue 3 Abin Sur merged with the Entity of Creation & became a White Lantern. Then seemingly used his power to save the Earth, BUT, it's unknown if he did or not.

I personally hope that the Flashpoint world is still out there somewhere......Thomas Wayne as Batman was just damn well awesome.....So was Emperor Aquaman....

@ravisher said:

if i was barry i would have wrote myself a note

"Remember: You have a wife and kids." ^^

@Markus Kage said:

There's some slight part of me that wants to say that the Flashpoint universe is still out there somewhere among the "New 52". IF you read Flashpoint: Green Lantern then you'll remember that at the very end of issue 3 Abin Sur merged with the Entity of Creation & became a White Lantern. Then seemingly used his power to save the Earth, BUT, it's unknown if he did or not.

I personally hope that the Flashpoint world is still out there somewhere......Thomas Wayne as Batman was just damn well awesome.....So was Emperor Aquaman....

The Flashpoint world is probably gone forever. It was not a successful event, more than 75% of tie-ins sucked and conceptually, it was an awful way to give closure to longtime readers. Also, if alternative timelines are still somewhere out there, so is pre-Flashpoint DCU and DC most definitely does not want that. If New 52 DCU is to be considered legitimate in the long run, DC needs to make it clear that it is gone, not that we just happen to be looking somewhere else at the moment. Now, having said that, that does not mean that some elements cannot be brought back to this new world.

I've always enjoyed reading DC's Elseworlds stories (much more than most of Marvel's What If?) so I consider this another Elseworlds story, for now. Unfortunately, while I'm reading an Elseworlds, the "regular" DC universe is still going along strong. I don't love the new DCU, but I don't hate it either. So I can go either way - - if they decide to go back to the way things were after a couple of years, fine. If not, then I can live with what's currently going on.

@cbishop said:

...About them not going back to pre-Flashpoint, anyway. The New 52 seems to be doing well enough to sustain interest for some time to come. I don't think it's a home run, but I think it's scoring enough to win.

The problem is that alot of the New 52 titles have sales numbers that are rapidly dropping, to where a significant number of them are at or below pre-New 52 levels, and many are continuing to drop. I'm sure DC is trying to salvage the sales numbers by doing the issue #0s in September and the upcoming Trinity War event. If those things don't boost sales enough, then I think it's very possible that the DCnU may already experience certain retcons.

@FinalAvalanche said:

The problem is that alot of the New 52 titles have sales numbers that are rapidly dropping, to where a significant number of them are at or below pre-New 52 levels, and many are continuing to drop. I'm sure DC is trying to salvage the sales numbers by doing the issue #0s in September and the upcoming Trinity War event. If those things don't boost sales enough, then I think it's very possible that the DCnU may already experience certain retcons.

I dunno. Sales numbers matter for sure, but I still don't believe that DC really thinks they can sustain fifty-two titles a month in this economy. I'd say they're looking for a core twenty or twenty-five. After all, some of the titles were mini-series from the start, intended to end and make way for another title. Others were just clearly bad ideas or ideas that weren't going to make the sales numbers they needed to stay around. I think some of the New 52 titles were just about preserving DC's title copyrights.

Then again, back in the 70's, DC launched a bunch of titles as part of their "DC Explosion." The titles did poorly (altho' some are fun to read now) and most of them were cancelled. The "DC Explosion" became known as the "DC Implosion." DC may have set themselves up for that again.

The retcons are coming, have no doubt. I don't really think DC will go back to pre-Flashpoint, but the New 52 has screwed up a few things, so they'll have to backtrack a little to fix some stuff. Now that I think about it, maybe those were supposed to be clues all along. Maybe things like Cyborg being a Leaguer instead of a Titan, Hawkman being around without Hawkgirl (so far) and stuff like that were supposed to be clues that the New DCU is not what it's supposed to be, and a missing Flash, like say, oh, Wally West, will pop up to fix time, resetting things to the way they should be?

Maybe DC having Rob Liefeld work on so many titles was a clue that, "Hey, this is our Heroes Reborn - we'll undo everything he's done a year from now anyway." :}

itd be interesting if Batman is already looking into the idea of parellel universes and alternate timeline as threats, kind of bringing back the pre-52 stronger paranoia i loved so much

I guess I'm biased toward the New 52 because I never really "read" DC in the past. I would pick up a Superman or Batman story arch that seemed important but nothing more. I was always more Marvel and primarily X-Titles. I just started getting back into comics and started reading more Marvel Titles. I then figured what the heck this New 52 seems like a good way to get into DC without having to read ANY of the prior content. I can jump in learn what "new" story DC created and enjoy the comic. This I believe is exactly what DC was going for and IMO they succeeded. Will they revert, or fix the holes that dont' coincide with the "old" universe? Maybe a little with the #0 issues, but personally I'm going with the idea that I don't need to know about the old universe and any information they provide is new cannon.

@wmwadeii: Yeah, that's pretty much what I did and how I feel (Except for the marvel part).

@wmwadeii said:

I guess I'm biased toward the New 52 because I never really "read" DC in the past. I would pick up a Superman or Batman story arch that seemed important but nothing more. I was always more Marvel and primarily X-Titles. I just started getting back into comics and started reading more Marvel Titles. I then figured what the heck this New 52 seems like a good way to get into DC without having to read ANY of the prior content. I can jump in learn what "new" story DC created and enjoy the comic. This I believe is exactly what DC was going for and IMO they succeeded. Will they revert, or fix the holes that dont' coincide with the "old" universe? Maybe a little with the #0 issues, but personally I'm going with the idea that I don't need to know about the old universe and any information they provide is new cannon.

I think you're correct, although the longtime fan in me is disappointed about it. I think the continuity is something that even the newer fans are struggling with though. When Batman & Green Lantern are pretty much holding onto everything pre-52, it's hard to understand that, "Hey, Superman has been rebooted. The League's history begins now. Hawkman may not have a Hawkgirl. Wonder Woman's previous supporting casts don't exist. And believe it or don't, Aquaman is cool now."

There are no "holes that don't coincide with the 'old' universe," because for the 52, the pre-52 doesn't exist. I think that's the biggest thing that's screwing with fans - me included. Current continuity seems to make Batman older than the rest of the League, Nightwing about the same age as the League, and so many other oddities that just seem out of place, compared to stuff that was set in place even as recent as Final Crisis. The thing is: it doesn't matter now. New 52, new rules. They may look like the same characters, but they are not the same characters.

It's interesting to see the modern takes on DC favorites, but it feels kind of like a cheat to the purist in me. It's kind of like introducing a great detective in Manhattan, who smokes the occasional crystal meth, but still calling him Sherlock Holmes. You antiquated Doyle fans can claim sacrilege if you like, but if I say he's Holmes, he's Holmes, and you can suck lemons. So Moriarty is working with Holmes now...and? Just shut up and keep buying my stories. What? Are you going to stay in 1887 forever? ;^P

I'm not positve about the flash but I know Batman Does. Almost all the creators said before hand that they are not changing anything with Batman, and if he didn't remember everything that happened to him, well that's a big change.

Nice article. Go Flash & Batman!

DCs timeline is sooo confusing! At the end of Flashpoint is this Barry and Bruce in Pre-New 52? or the New 52? If its the New 52, then why do they know each other if they meet first in JL #1? This reboot thing is super confusing and I hope they start to patch some areas up in their time lapses and fill in their continuity, because honestly its getting ridiculous, what did or didn't happen!

@cbishop said:

@wmwadeii said:

I guess I'm biased toward the New 52 because I never really "read" DC in the past. I would pick up a Superman or Batman story arch that seemed important but nothing more. I was always more Marvel and primarily X-Titles. I just started getting back into comics and started reading more Marvel Titles. I then figured what the heck this New 52 seems like a good way to get into DC without having to read ANY of the prior content. I can jump in learn what "new" story DC created and enjoy the comic. This I believe is exactly what DC was going for and IMO they succeeded. Will they revert, or fix the holes that dont' coincide with the "old" universe? Maybe a little with the #0 issues, but personally I'm going with the idea that I don't need to know about the old universe and any information they provide is new cannon.

I think you're correct, although the longtime fan in me is disappointed about it. I think the continuity is something that even the newer fans are struggling with though. When Batman & Green Lantern are pretty much holding onto everything pre-52, it's hard to understand that, "Hey, Superman has been rebooted. The League's history begins now. Hawkman may not have a Hawkgirl. Wonder Woman's previous supporting casts don't exist. And believe it or don't, Aquaman is cool now."

There are no "holes that don't coincide with the 'old' universe," because for the 52, the pre-52 doesn't exist. I think that's the biggest thing that's screwing with fans - me included. Current continuity seems to make Batman older than the rest of the League, Nightwing about the same age as the League, and so many other oddities that just seem out of place, compared to stuff that was set in place even as recent as Final Crisis. The thing is: it doesn't matter now. New 52, new rules. They may look like the same characters, but they are not the same characters.

It's interesting to see the modern takes on DC favorites, but it feels kind of like a cheat to the purist in me. It's kind of like introducing a great detective in Manhattan, who smokes the occasional crystal meth, but still calling him Sherlock Holmes. You antiquated Doyle fans can claim sacrilege if you like, but if I say he's Holmes, he's Holmes, and you can suck lemons. So Moriarty is working with Holmes now...and? Just shut up and keep buying my stories. What? Are you going to stay in 1887 forever? ;^P

Yeah good call on both of these comments, sometimes its hard to remember that they're targeting a new audience but sometimes the old audience gets a little screwed because we have the memories of the old.....maybe like Flash....?

@ZiPPY45 said:

DCs timeline is sooo confusing! At the end of Flashpoint is this Barry and Bruce in Pre-New 52? or the New 52? If its the New 52, then why do they know each other if they meet first in JL #1? This reboot thing is super confusing and I hope they start to patch some areas up in their time lapses and fill in their continuity, because honestly its getting ridiculous, what did or didn't happen!

Flash became his New 52 self as he arrived in New 52 present, five years after he met New 52 Batman in JL #1.

@ZiPPY45 said:

Yeah good call on both of these comments, sometimes its hard to remember that they're targeting a new audience but sometimes the old audience gets a little screwed because we have the memories of the old.....maybe like Flash....?

Yeah, and as an older fan, I have done my share of b*tchin' about the New 52. I was a kid when they rebooted after Crisis on Infinite Earths. I was just old enough to appreciate the passing away of that much comic book history, but just young enough to be excited about them updating the characters to the late 1980's. But there were fans who were older than me then that absolutely hated it. Now I understand why.

I wish DC would release some kind of footnote book explaining what's "canon" and what's not, what happened and what didn't concerning the new 52. It's really confusing at times lol. I hate having 100 different worlds, universes etc. Just have like 5 keep it simple lol. Just my opinion.

I like what they've done with the DC universe. It needed to be streamlined. They need to stay away from the other timelines. That's just my opinion.

good theory

Ok this is what I think: even though the "New 52" is a reboot in the DC universe, the ending in Flashpoint basically stated that multiple universes were merged into one again and that events that happened in the past (like Blackest Night) did in fact happen, but the way it happened was altered due to the universes merging.

To me, all the books are simply at a different point in time in the New 52 Universe... I hope they never bring back the pre-52 universe so that this whole thing means something. Pandora can complicate things, so whatever storyline awaits her really scares me.

With time, they should drop "The New 52" tagline and make this the new norm.

I dont think Flashpoint has happened yet in the new 52. Like the scene where Flash and Bats are talking. Something about it gives me the impression that this takes place well into the future of the Justice League (52) where we as the readers are still at their beginnings.

I like what's happening here... or maybe I don't. The DCU has me so confused right now that i don't even know what's happening or what happened.

@AmaterasuNoHasu: check your blog on the new 52 brah, not to sound arrogant i think a rational me could answer some of your confusion

Maybe they do remember

If the Powers That Be over at DC Comics had it there way,the possibility that there was a universe prior the "New 52" would NEVER cross their minds. Hell,if anything,if they had it their way,this article wouldn't even exsist!

Nice G-man you always know what to say about the extreme events in comics I love this idea and I hope that DC investigates this in the future and potentially creates a crossover where both of the Waynes can team up I know the flashpoint world is gone now but perhaps there might be a way to access it again cause it was really interesting

@00 Raiser said:

I dont think Flashpoint has happened yet in the new 52. Like the scene where Flash and Bats are talking. Something about it gives me the impression that this takes place well into the future of the Justice League (52) where we as the readers are still at their beginnings.

I agree with this. I don't think that conversation has happened yet on new 52, so current flash does not remember anything because he have not "merged" yet with flashpoint flash. One day barry is going to wake up at his desk and think "omgwtf".