DC Comics' Fifth Wave of The New 52 [UPDATE]

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Posted by TheMess1428 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio

First cancelled: BLACKHAWKS, HAWK AND DOVE, MEN OF WAR, MISTER TERRIFIC, O.M.A.C., and STATIC SHOCK.

Second Wave: BATMAN, INCORPORATED, DIAL H, EARTH 2, G.I. COMBAT, THE RAVAGERS, and WORLDS' FINEST.

Second cancelled: CAPTAIN ATOM, JUSTICE LEAGUE INTERNATIONAL, RESURRECTION MAN, and VOODOO.

Third Wave: PHANTOM STRANGER, SWORD OF SORCERY, TALON, and TEAM 7.

Third cancelled: BLUE BEETLE, FRANKENSTEIN, AGENT OF S.H.A.D.E., G.I. COMBAT, GRIFTER, and LEGION LOST.

Fourth Wave: CONSTANTINE, JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA, JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA'S VIBE, KATANA, and THRESHOLD.

Fourth cancelled: DC UNIVERSE PRESENTS, DEATHSTROKE, THE FURY OF FIRESTORM: THE NUCLEAR MEN, I, VAMPIRE, THE RAVAGERS, THE SAVAGE HAWKMAN, SWORD OF SORCERY, AND TEAM 7.

Fifth Wave: THE GREEN TEAM, THE MOVEMENT, and 6 unnamed titles yet to be announced.

Updated: Saturday, February 9, 2013.

#1 Posted by TheOptimist (681 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain Atom, Voodoo, Fury of Firestorm, Savage Hawkman, Grifter, DC Universe Presents (or perhaps Blue Beetle or Legion Lost in substitution for one of these). These are the books that currently have the most evidence for qualifying for cancellation. Reviews and personal opinions aside, Catwoman, Red Lanterns and Batman: The Dark Knight have too strong of sales to merit cancellation at this point. Also, Dark Knight is getting a change in writers coming up, switching to the author of the recent Penguin miniseries which, given the expectations for it, was incredibly well received. I'd beg people to give Dark Knight another chance when his time starts... it'll be like a new title starting at that point. The series that I selected were those consistently showing the lowest rankings on chart in tandem with the largest portion of their starting readership having be shed. I factored in the current 'rate of decay' which suggests that those one will be the first to cross the typical cancellation threshold. At this point, the only two series that are at or below that line are Captain Atom and Voodoo (and that is with the excluded returnables included... given the numbers and anecdotal evidence in context with the returnability context, not many retailers can apply returnability at this time).

#2 Posted by The_Tree (7930 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the ones that'll get cancelled will be Captain Atom, Fury of Firestorm, Legion Lost, Resurrection Man, Deathstroke, and Savage Hawkman.

I can't see them cancelling Voodoo or Grifter at the time because they're really pushing the Wildstorm part of this universe. The only way I see they get cancelled is if the third wave gives us a WildC.A.T.s book.

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#3 Posted by Loki9876 (3039 posts) - - Show Bio

I hope they do NOT cancel resurrection man

#4 Posted by The Mighty Monarch (2137 posts) - - Show Bio

It seems like Voodoo was already circling the drain, but in their attempts to save it, they pretty much put in the final nail.

I'm hopeful, but I don't like Deathstroke will survive his Leifeld-ization.

Hawkman and Captain Atom don't seem like they'll last, and I won't really miss either one THAT much.

Unfortunately I do think Fury of Firestorm is in danger, which would really bum me out.

The Dark Knight WON'T get cancelled, despite being terrible. It's still selling well unfortunately.

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What I would LIKE to see cancelled, but won't likely get my wish is, for starters, The Dark Knight. Put the new writer on Detective Comics instead.

Voodoo should probably die quietly now that it's been completely ruined.

Captain Atom or Hawkman I wouldn't miss much.

Birds of Prey, I'm sorry, just hadn't really been anything special. I'd rather see something more interesting and unique take its place.

Red Lanterns hasn't been what I expected. I'd be ok letting that go and getting an Earth-centric GL title perhaps.

And then Legion of Super-Heroes. I hate them so much.

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Is Legion Lost really that much of an underdog? That's a shame. I ADORE that series, and I'm a HUGE Legion hater.

I also don't think DC Universe Presents will be up for cancellation so soon, considering the premise. DC obviously thinks they can succeed with the idea because National Comics is practically the same thing. But since its an anthology, I think DC won't be too quick to drop it.

#5 Posted by jsphsmth (1136 posts) - - Show Bio

The low selling books that are getting creative team changes are relatively safe from the Third Wave cancellations. (a DC exec said as much recently) Those titles would include Firestorm, Grifter, Hawkman, Deathstroke, and Legion Lost.

With those titles removed from the equation, I would suggest that Voodoo, Blue Beetle, and Captain Atom would be included in the next round of cancellations, based solely upon sales.

#6 Posted by The Mighty Monarch (2137 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsphsmth said:

The low selling books that are getting creative team changes are relatively safe from the Third Wave cancellations. (a DC exec said as much recently) Those titles would include Firestorm, Grifter, Hawkman, Deathstroke, and Legion Lost.

With those titles removed from the equation, I would suggest that Voodoo, Blue Beetle, and Captain Atom would be included in the next round of cancellations, based solely upon sales.

A new creative team sure didn't save Static from cancellation.

#7 Posted by JonesDeini (3501 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheOptimist said:

Captain Atom, Voodoo, Fury of Firestorm, Savage Hawkman, Grifter, DC Universe Presents (or perhaps Blue Beetle or Legion Lost in substitution for one of these). These are the books that currently have the most evidence for qualifying for cancellation. Reviews and personal opinions aside, Catwoman, Red Lanterns and Batman: The Dark Knight have too strong of sales to merit cancellation at this point. Also, Dark Knight is getting a change in writers coming up, switching to the author of the recent Penguin miniseries which, given the expectations for it, was incredibly well received. I'd beg people to give Dark Knight another chance when his time starts... it'll be like a new title starting at that point. The series that I selected were those consistently showing the lowest rankings on chart in tandem with the largest portion of their starting readership having be shed. I factored in the current 'rate of decay' which suggests that those one will be the first to cross the typical cancellation threshold. At this point, the only two series that are at or below that line are Captain Atom and Voodoo (and that is with the excluded returnables included... given the numbers and anecdotal evidence in context with the returnability context, not many retailers can apply returnability at this time).

Yup

#8 Posted by jsphsmth (1136 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Mighty Monarch: The creative team changed, but the direction did not. The damage had already been done. There was little chance of attracting new readers or regaining the readers who had already dropped the comic.

With the exception of Firestorm, the new creative teams have new ideas that might work. DC is willing to let them have that chance.

#9 Edited by TheMess1428 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio

The titles that got the creator changes were the ones who just barely made it above the lowest six that got cancelled. I'm not 100% sold on the idea that all of them are safe but I can say that Deathstroke is safe and Legion Lost is safe. Deathstroke, as written by Kyle Higgins, was good but very underpublicized. It needed to be more spread around as a good book and story but it wasn't. Instead, because of not many people knowing it was good and buying it, they had to change it to Rob Liefeld. I don't have anything against Liefeld. I'm sorry that his Hawk and Dove series got cancelled. I have a feeling that he might be able to make The Savage Hawkman more interesting and I am definitely sure that he will make Grifter more awesome than it already is. I just don't feel like putting him on Deathstroke was the solution to Deathstroke's problem. As for Legion Lost, I'm sure it will survive thanks to Scott Lobdell's The Culling crossover with Superboy and Teen Titans.

As for Batman: The Dark Knight, it is the only Batman-centric title that is actually expendable. Even though Detective Comics is pretty suckish compared to Batman and Batman and Robin, its never gonna get cancelled. They just won't allow it. But TDK is expendable and there already is a large amount of complaining due to too many Batman books and having them all too different than each other in how Batman is portrayed. With Batman Inc coming in, it'd be easier to just drop TDK instead of changing creators. What they should do with Detective Comics is make it into a DC Universe Presents type title but solely on characters in the Batman universe like Cassandra Cain, Stephanie Brown, Red Robin, and the Question. That would be really interesting.

As for Static Shock, from what I heard, it was doomed from the start. The editors or whoever was in charge treated it like crap when the original writer wanted to make it good but wasn't given the chance. Then they changed it out and the whole 8 issues were phoned in and treated like a throw away comic that nobody wanted. That one deserved a creator change rather than a cancellation.

I liked Voodoo at the beginning but lost interest after a while. I still bought it but didn't keep reading. Same for Catwoman. Now they are lackluster and I'm sure there are no creator changes possible to really save these books. Catwoman would be better off on a team like Gotham City Sirens or Suicide Squad. Voodoo is just basically facing cancellation.

There are some titles that are completely anti-cancellation. You can pretty much guess which ones those are but the one that nobody will guess is DC Universe Presents. There are too many character and creator changes that it's hard to put a final nail in it to declare its going to be cancelled. There will be a lot of characters and creators that will outsell others in this very same title. All they have to do is bring in something a bit more interesting. And not a character that is already appearing in one title as a main character and another as a back up character. *cough* DEADMAN *cough* This would be the perfect place for some stories like the Doom Patrol, Metal Men, the Atom, or Plastic Man.

I think I'm pretty sure I can speak for most, not all, that the Red Lanterns cannot hold their own comic. They were pretty much a team of villains if you really want to look at their concept in black and white. Back in Brightest Day, (which I haven't fully read yet), it seemed as though the Red Lanterns could be some kind of heroes, anti-heroes more likely. But when the comic came out, it seemed too much like reading a more sci-fi version of Suicide Squad but with way less interesting stories and characters and a whole bunch of red. If there were any Corps besides the Green that could have gotten their own title, it should have been Blue or the Star Sapphires.

I also would like to throw out there that most likely, G.I. Combat will get cancelled in the fourth wave. The military titles were proven unsuccessful at this time, so replacing two failing ones with one new one is still a failing idea. Better to just get out already.

#10 Posted by The Mighty Monarch (2137 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheMess1428 said:

The titles that got the creator changes were the ones who just barely made it above the lowest six that got cancelled. I'm not 100% sold on the idea that all of them are safe but I can say that Deathstroke is safe and Legion Lost is safe. Deathstroke, as written by Kyle Higgins, was good but very underpublicized. It needed to be more spread around as a good book and story but it wasn't. Instead, because of not many people knowing it was good and buying it, they had to change it to Rob Liefeld. I don't have anything against Liefeld. I'm sorry that his Hawk and Dove series got cancelled. I have a feeling that he might be able to make The Savage Hawkman more interesting and I am definitely sure that he will make Grifter more awesome than it already is. I just don't feel like putting him on Deathstroke was the solution to Deathstroke's problem. As for Legion Lost, I'm sure it will survive thanks to Scott Lobdell's The Culling crossover with Superboy and Teen Titans.

As for Batman: The Dark Knight, it is the only Batman-centric title that is actually expendable. Even though Detective Comics is pretty suckish compared to Batman and Batman and Robin, its never gonna get cancelled. They just won't allow it. But TDK is expendable and there already is a large amount of complaining due to too many Batman books and having them all too different than each other in how Batman is portrayed. With Batman Inc coming in, it'd be easier to just drop TDK instead of changing creators. What they should do with Detective Comics is make it into a DC Universe Presents type title but solely on characters in the Batman universe like Cassandra Cain, Stephanie Brown, Red Robin, and the Question. That would be really interesting.

As for Static Shock, from what I heard, it was doomed from the start. The editors or whoever was in charge treated it like crap when the original writer wanted to make it good but wasn't given the chance. Then they changed it out and the whole 8 issues were phoned in and treated like a throw away comic that nobody wanted. That one deserved a creator change rather than a cancellation.

I liked Voodoo at the beginning but lost interest after a while. I still bought it but didn't keep reading. Same for Catwoman. Now they are lackluster and I'm sure there are no creator changes possible to really save these books. Catwoman would be better off on a team like Gotham City Sirens or Suicide Squad. Voodoo is just basically facing cancellation.

There are some titles that are completely anti-cancellation. You can pretty much guess which ones those are but the one that nobody will guess is DC Universe Presents. There are too many character and creator changes that it's hard to put a final nail in it to declare its going to be cancelled. There will be a lot of characters and creators that will outsell others in this very same title. All they have to do is bring in something a bit more interesting. And not a character that is already appearing in one title as a main character and another as a back up character. *cough* DEADMAN *cough* This would be the perfect place for some stories like the Doom Patrol, Metal Men, the Atom, or Plastic Man.

I think I'm pretty sure I can speak for most, not all, that the Red Lanterns cannot hold their own comic. They were pretty much a team of villains if you really want to look at their concept in black and white. Back in Brightest Day, (which I haven't fully read yet), it seemed as though the Red Lanterns could be some kind of heroes, anti-heroes more likely. But when the comic came out, it seemed too much like reading a more sci-fi version of Suicide Squad but with way less interesting stories and characters and a whole bunch of red. If there were any Corps besides the Green that could have gotten their own title, it should have been Blue or the Star Sapphires.

I also would like to throw out there that most likely, G.I. Combat will get cancelled in the fourth wave. The military titles were proven unsuccessful at this time, so replacing two failing ones with one new one is still a failing idea. Better to just get out already.

I don't really think Deathstroke is going to make it. Out of all those with creative team changes, that one seems to be most likely to get worse. Most people were ignoring the series due to it being 'shallow violence' and putting Liefeld on the title is only fueling that notion. And from what I heard, Legion Lost was changing writers because Nicieza was busy, not due to sales. Plus, yes, I think The Culling will probably help it.

The Dark Knight's not on the chopping block though. Yes, it's a really bad series, but it's sales aren't. Several recent 'sold out' announcements have included The Dark Knight. It sucks, but its not going anywhere unfortunately. Detective Comics won't get cancelled obviously, but it will likely get a creative change soon.

Pretty spot on about Static.

Voodoo got a creative change that lead it downhill. Did you start to lose interest around #5? That's when the new writer came on. Catwoman I actually really like. I think its highly underrated, but I don't know much about the sales.

I've been saying that for a while about DC Universe presents, you're not alone there. It's very much tilted in an anti-cancellation direction. Though I don't want to see the Doom Patrol there, I want them in their own series again dammit. Give it to Rozum!

Red Lanterns COULD hold their own comic I think. I just think the writer is focusing a bit too much in the wrong directions. I don't think Blue or Violet could've held their own titles though. The Star Sapphires are a little close to being one-note characters in terms of motivation, and Blue's m.o. is kind of vague. Plus they supposedly can't do much without being around a Green Lantern, so...

I think its too soon to be thinking about the 4th wave. It's too far away at this point.

#11 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (34908 posts) - - Show Bio

If I, Vampire or Captain Atom get cancelled I will drop ALL my DC books like a bad habit also I will post a foul mouth rant about all the fans that ignored or wrote them off without actually reading them, especially if they used non-excuses like "oh I'm just sick of Vampires now"

#12 Posted by The_Tree (7930 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Mighty Monarch: I'm hoping Legion Lost stays for awhile too, I wasn't ever too big on the LoSH, and I'm really enjoying this title. Legion of Super-Heroes is pretty awful though, and if it got cancelled, I honestly wouldn't care.

And a Doom Patrol series with Rozum? I'd read that in a heartbeat!

Online
#13 Posted by The Mighty Monarch (2137 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87: I gave Captain Atom a chance, and while I don't think its the worst, I'm still not a big fan. I've seen Freddie Williams II do some great art, but what he's doing there is COMPLETELY different, and its one of the bigger problems I have with series, especially the almost crayon-y way he draws Captain Atom himself. And there were a bunch of other problems in the writing. I'd be willing to let it go, but I've been giving it a shot.

I, Vampire though I completely agree. If sales aren't what they should be, its because DC kind of shot themselves in the foot with that one. The first cover especially gave off some serious 'Twilight' vibes, which obviously DOES NOT represent the book well. It's my number three DC title right now, and I've given chances to ALL 52. I've seen plenty of people who don't like vampires enjoy the series, and I try to spread the word for it as much as I can.

Everyone's too busy buying the highly overrated Flash and Justice League titles.

@The_Tree: Which is sad because LoSH has a much bigger 'anti-cancellation' shield than Legion Lost does; but LL is so much better.

Rozum's wanted to do it for a while, but it seems like he's kind of lost interest. Though he said for him to want to do it, it would have to be rebooted again considering how many times its been rebooted. I say we petition DC to try to get him on the title, or at least bring back Xombi.

#14 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (34908 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Mighty Monarch: I, Vampire is the second or third lowest ongoing at DC
#15 Posted by The Mighty Monarch (2137 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87 said:

@The Mighty Monarch: I, Vampire is the second or third lowest ongoing at DC

Awwww, I wish I hadn't asked. That seriously bums me out.

Well there goes my weekend. Now I have to spend 48 hours spreading the word of I, Vampire to help it avoid cancellation.

#16 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (34908 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Mighty Monarch said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@The Mighty Monarch: I, Vampire is the second or third lowest ongoing at DC

Awwww, I wish I hadn't asked. That seriously bums me out.

Well there goes my weekend. Now I have to spend 48 hours spreading the word of I, Vampire to help it avoid cancellation.

I think it's already doomed, a change in writer would be just as bad as it getting canned 
#17 Edited by The_Tree (7930 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Mighty Monarch: Totally agree on the anti-cancellation shield. Xombi would also be nice to have back. Not sure on how I'd feel about a reboot of the Doom Patrol again. I thought that Giffen was piecing together the history of the team quite well in the last run. Heck, I'd be happy if he just came back and started where he left off. I'm hoping that when the third wave strikes, we'll find the Doom Patrol, Xombi, Booster Gold, and Red Robin back in their own series.

Online
#18 Posted by The Mighty Monarch (2137 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87 said:

@The Mighty Monarch said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@The Mighty Monarch: I, Vampire is the second or third lowest ongoing at DC

Awwww, I wish I hadn't asked. That seriously bums me out.

Well there goes my weekend. Now I have to spend 48 hours spreading the word of I, Vampire to help it avoid cancellation.

I think it's already doomed, a change in writer would be just as bad as it getting canned

Words could scarcely express the crippling sorrow it's cancellation would bring me. Fifty two series, and it's my number three. It's beaten only by possibly the greatest Batman I've ever read, and the one series that could beat that. I live I, Vampire better than Morrison's Action Comics. Better than Animal Man or Swamp Thing. I'm a huge fan of vampires, and this is among the best of the best vampire fiction I've ever encountered in my life. It's filled with such raw intensity; and that delicate balance between animals and aristocrats.... something that's been eluding most vampire fiction for a while.... Sigh.

@The_Tree said:

@The Mighty Monarch: Totally agree on the anti-cancellation shield. Xombi would also be nice to have back. Not sure on how I'd feel about a reboot of the Doom Patrol again. I thought that Giffen was piecing together the history of the team quite well in the last run. Heck, I'd be happy if he just came back and started where he left off. I'm hoping that when the third wave strikes, we'll find the Doom Patrol, Xombi, Booster Gold, and Red Robin back in their own series.

All I know is what he told me when I asked him about what DC character's he'd like to write. He said the team had been rebooted so many times since he started campaigning for the job (He first wanted it right after Morrison) that at this point they'd need to be rebooted again for him to be interested. So I figure, since it's the New 52, full of reboots, and there's been so much inconsistency in their history already, any changes Rozum would make could only be good ones; and it would be the perfect time to give him the series, when the notion of rebooting them is still fresh. I'm serious about this too. I'm going to get some people to start a petition for this. If my ADHD doesn't get in my way XP

Let me put it this way, you see how much I expressed my love for I, Vampire in my response above? If I, Vampire was cancelled and replaced with a Rozum Doom Patrol; ALL would be forgiven. There'd still be a hole in my heart there, but it would be 99% filled if Rozum Doom Patrol happened.

Anything by Rozum where he has creative control honestly.... IMAGINE IF HE TOOK OVER DETECTIVE COMICS. (He also said he'd like to do a long stint on Batman.)

Booster Gold would be a welcome return, but I'm currently satisfied with his role in the JLI. I don't specifically need more. Red Robin I agree though, but we've got plenty of Batman on our plates for the moment. Though I'd vehemently support a Nightrunner ongoing if written by David Hine.

#19 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (34908 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Mighty Monarch: You should write a "Why You Should Be Reading I, Vampire" blog and link it at the bottom of every post you make on the Vine
#20 Posted by The Mighty Monarch (2137 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87: I think once this month is over I'm also going to do a huge retrospective look at the New 52 thus far, everything thats come before the Second Wave. The end of series that deserved another chance with new creative team like Static, overrated series like The Flash, Justice League, and Aquaman to a minor degree. And the severely underrated ones like I, Vampire and Catwoman. And some other stuff here and there.

But pushing I, Vampire that that is a good idea. I might get to work on that soon.

#21 Posted by The_Tree (7930 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Mighty Monarch: All in all, I'd just be happy to see the Doom Patrol again, and if Rozum ever does get to write it, I hope DC doesn't try to nose their way into his creativity like they did with Static. The series had so much potential, and would've been amazing if they would've just let him do his thing. He'd be a waaaaaay better choice to write Detective Comics than Tony Daniel, don't see why DC keeps letting him write. And don't get me wrong, I love the way Booster is in JLI, but I really miss Rip, Skeets, Goldstar, and having Booster go on time traveling adventures. Nightrunner with David Hine would be great, I loved him on Azrael.

Online
#22 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (34908 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Mighty Monarch said:

@spiderbat87: I think once this month is over I'm also going to do a huge retrospective look at the New 52 thus far, everything thats come before the Second Wave. The end of series that deserved another chance with new creative team like Static, overrated series like The Flash, Justice League, and Aquaman to a minor degree. And the severely underrated ones like I, Vampire and Catwoman. And some other stuff here and there.

But pushing I, Vampire that that is a good idea. I might get to work on that soon.

You should totally do it
#23 Posted by Lvenger (21143 posts) - - Show Bio

Legion Lost, Hawkman, Deathstroke, The Fury of Firestorm, Batman: The Dark Knight and Suicide Squad are the books I'd cancel for DC's second wave were I involved in that.

#24 Posted by nandizzle (63 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87: And then I will reply "you mad bro?"

#25 Posted by jsphsmth (1136 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: Batman TDK is getting an amazing writer in Gregg Hurwitz. I guess DC really needs to publicize this a lot more as it was announced months ago, but most people don't know.

#26 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (34908 posts) - - Show Bio
@nandizzle said:

@spiderbat87: And then I will reply "you mad bro?"

Which I will counter with a:
#27 Posted by Lvenger (21143 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsphsmth: I haven't heard about this till now. All I've had to go on is the current terrible storyline which has been very disappointing. So what's Hurwitz's profile? Haven't heard of him till now either. What are some good stories of his?

#28 Posted by The Mighty Monarch (2137 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsphsmth: They should just put him on Detective Comics and let The Dark Knight loose like the tumor it is. If they need a fourth Batman series, they should bring back Streets of Gotham.

@The_Tree: You're speaking my language there. Did you read the last Pre-Boot issue of Batman and Robin? David Hine wrote it and it was VERY Nightrunner-centric. It really helped build his corner of the DCU; which is why I was devastated to hear Batwing got a series over Nightrunner when it came to new Batman Inc. characters.

All in all the DCnU needs more Rozum, more Doom Patrol, more Paul Dini, and more David Hine. And actually more Milestone in general.

#29 Posted by Or35ti (1101 posts) - - Show Bio

I hope they don't cancel I, Vampire. I personally am not subscribed even though I honestly wish I was, it's just not that accessible here in Greece but I've heard that it is nothing but a fantastic book.

#30 Posted by jsphsmth (1136 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: He wrote the Penguin Pain and Prejudice miniseries that just concluded. It was a great read.

It sounds like his plans for Batman TDK will be to focus on the exploration of Batman's major villains. Scarecrow will be first.

#31 Posted by jsphsmth (1136 posts) - - Show Bio

Not terribly worried about I, Vampire.

A DC exec said they wouldn't always be trimming the line from the bottom of the sales chart. This would mean that they would keep loosing great niche titles primarily from the Dark and the Edge lines because they will always sell less than the main superhero titles.

(Yes,I keep quoting a DC exec without providing a link. I am attempting to find it again. Pretty sure it was one of the monthly interviews with Bob Wayne/John Rood at Newsarama)

#32 Posted by The_Tree (7930 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Mighty Monarch: I actually did read that issue, I forgot that he even wrote it, it was fantastic. Maybe after Grant gets finishes up his master plan in Batman Incorporated, it could become some sort of Batman-family anthology title, I'd love some sort of series like that.

And yeah, DC really needs to put forth an effort in showing off the Milestone characters, instead of acting like Static's the only one that exists.

Online
#33 Posted by TheOptimist (681 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87 said:

@The Mighty Monarch: I, Vampire is the second or third lowest ongoing at DC

It is doing much better than you think.

Captain Atom, Voodoo, Blue Beetle, Grifter, Resurrection Man, Firestorm, DCU Presents and Legion Lost all did worse than I, Vampire in the most recent charts. It has also held on to a comparatively large chunk of readers. So 9th lowest ongoing... plus the 6 that were cancelled. Also doing better than almost all mini-series (and nearly all Vertigo books, even American Vampire).

#34 Posted by The Mighty Monarch (2137 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsphsmth said:

Not terribly worried about I, Vampire.

A DC exec said they wouldn't always be trimming the line from the bottom of the sales chart. This would mean that they would keep loosing great niche titles primarily from the Dark and the Edge lines because they will always sell less than the main superhero titles.

(Yes,I keep quoting a DC exec without providing a link. I am attempting to find it again. Pretty sure it was one of the monthly interviews with Bob Wayne/John Rood at Newsarama)

If I get the time I'll look into it, but if you could actually find that quote that would be AWESOME. A quote like that demonstrates care about their fanbase.

@The_Tree: That's the other thing I'd been hoping for. I hope that Morrison doesn't run the concept into the ground as his grand finale; I hope he leaves the title open for other writers to follow up; and I think Hine would be a PERFECT choice for that. He also wrote that 2-part Batman Annual/Detective Comics Annual story that introduced Nightrunner.

I've got Five Writers I'd place in my highest regard, 'God Class' I call them. Grant Morrison, David Hine, John Rozum, Nick Spencer, and Scott Snyder. Morrison and Snyder earned that slot over time; but Hine and Rozum shot up there within two or three issues of respective series.

#35 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (34908 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheOptimist said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@The Mighty Monarch: I, Vampire is the second or third lowest ongoing at DC

It is doing much better than you think.

Captain Atom, Voodoo, Blue Beetle, Grifter, Resurrection Man, Firestorm, DCU Presents and Legion Lost all did worse than I, Vampire in the most recent charts. It has also held on to a comparatively large chunk of readers. So 9th lowest ongoing... plus the 6 that were cancelled. Also doing better than almost all mini-series (and nearly all Vertigo books, even American Vampire).

It only sold about 16,000 the last three months, the cut of figure is 20,000 also low Vertigo sales are sadly to be expected as readers have no taste.
#36 Posted by Adnan (1021 posts) - - Show Bio

eh, I, Vampire is good but definitely not for everyone. I'd say the same for Demon Knights too, and it's my favourite title of the entire new 52.
 
Captain Atom technically should've been cancelled already, it was selling lower than Blackhawks. It'll probably go. Also, I think with the backlash from half the cancellations featuring ethnic minority leads, titles like Firestorm, Voodoo, and Blue Beetle may be safe for now.

#37 Posted by TheOptimist (681 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsphsmth said:

Not terribly worried about I, Vampire.

A DC exec said they wouldn't always be trimming the line from the bottom of the sales chart. This would mean that they would keep loosing great niche titles primarily from the Dark and the Edge lines because they will always sell less than the main superhero titles.

(Yes,I keep quoting a DC exec without providing a link. I am attempting to find it again. Pretty sure it was one of the monthly interviews with Bob Wayne/John Rood at Newsarama)

IIRC, it was Wayne, who was recently incredibly upbeat about the sales of I, Vampire. Definitely not a tone of speculating cancellation.

Additionally, the previously set margin of cancellation titles (purely from a viewer perspective) was around the level of 13,000 units... dropping within that range historically has suggested the potential cancellation of the title in the next round of solicitations (offering it about a 4 to 5 month closure period). Many books have been sustained at much lower rates than this. How about a chart to support my evidence you say? Ah, good madame or sir, I supply!

Streets238302239021684215922143421342
JSA All183951792017409169871670616384
Batman Confidential141121445013495131161277912578
Outsiders131331283820074130921284016265
REBELS106191035410351102571001410000
Freedom1002894379050888686018425
Doom9564937510681938694359299
Warlord853284308130791577557306
Azrael819878417699782575587617
Magog811977437264674966086202
The Shield644460105568528852015082
The Web58095276498147634640

This is (in fact) a list of every major title that was cancelled pre-new 52 for about the past 2 years... excluding those cancelled for the purposes of the relaunch itself (which admittedly might include JSA All-Stars, given the timing of the final issue). The first column indicates the released sales the month cancellation was announced, the final indicates the sales # of the final issue. The Web did not chart its final issue. Streets of Gotham, included here, was noted to have closed its story, so those numbers are less indicative of the trend.

Whats that you say? This trend was just in the past couple of years? No no my friend, no no! "All-New Atom" was previously announced cancelled with the sales level of at 13,560. Infinity Inc. at 11,328. The previous run of Firestorm was announced cancelled at the level of 16,068 (making the recent number of 16,007 less than ideal).

Even higher tiers, like Aquaman were previously cancelled at the level of 16,778. Hawgirl at 16,575. Catwoman at 18,609. That would appear to be threshold (IMO) for the B-listers... which brings me again to another (wildly substantiated only by my somewhat logical mind) proposal, the cancellation thresholds:

A-List Threshold: 30,000 Units (The once acclaimed Green Arrow run bowed out at 31,798).

B-List Threshold: 16,000 to 18,000 Units (At least moderately tenured heroes)

C-List Threshold: 13,000 Units (Covering the bases of most the rest)

D-List Threshold: 8,000 (The most acclaimed of critical darlings, you know, the ones people aren't reading)

F-List Threshold: 5,000 (A focused series of reprints, one-shots and the like)

#38 Edited by TheOptimist (681 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87 said:

@TheOptimist said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@The Mighty Monarch: I, Vampire is the second or third lowest ongoing at DC

It is doing much better than you think.

Captain Atom, Voodoo, Blue Beetle, Grifter, Resurrection Man, Firestorm, DCU Presents and Legion Lost all did worse than I, Vampire in the most recent charts. It has also held on to a comparatively large chunk of readers. So 9th lowest ongoing... plus the 6 that were cancelled. Also doing better than almost all mini-series (and nearly all Vertigo books, even American Vampire).

It only sold about 16,000 the last three months, the cut of figure is 20,000 also low Vertigo sales are sadly to be expected as readers have no taste.

See my above evidence that the rumor of 20,000 is not much more than that... the 20 K number was raised to attention when mentioned by Scott McDaniel in an interview regarding Static Shock... wherein it was referenced that any title selling below that line entered the general realm of potential cancellation. Dropping below that line itself is not a death sentence, it merely begs for watch and stabilization. Many of the above series carried their entire runs (several years often) below the 20k line.

Additionally, the stabilization of the title at the 16k level is incredibly encouraging... it is those that continue to drop that are problematic... a drop of only a couple hundred units in the course of three months is waaay encouraging.

#39 Posted by The Mighty Monarch (2137 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheOptimist said:

@jsphsmth said:

Not terribly worried about I, Vampire.

A DC exec said they wouldn't always be trimming the line from the bottom of the sales chart. This would mean that they would keep loosing great niche titles primarily from the Dark and the Edge lines because they will always sell less than the main superhero titles.

(Yes,I keep quoting a DC exec without providing a link. I am attempting to find it again. Pretty sure it was one of the monthly interviews with Bob Wayne/John Rood at Newsarama)

IIRC, it was Wayne, who was recently incredibly upbeat about the sales of I, Vampire. Definitely not a tone of speculating cancellation.

Additionally, the previously set margin of cancellation titles (purely from a viewer perspective) was around the level of 13,000 units... dropping within that range historically has suggested the potential cancellation of the title in the next round of solicitations (offering it about a 4 to 5 month closure period). Many books have been sustained at much lower rates than this. How about a chart to support my evidence you say? Ah, good madame or sir, I supply!

Streets238302239021684215922143421342
JSA All183951792017409169871670616384
Batman Confidential141121445013495131161277912578
Outsiders131331283820074130921284016265
REBELS106191035410351102571001410000
Freedom1002894379050888686018425
Doom9564937510681938694359299
Warlord853284308130791577557306
Azrael819878417699782575587617
Magog811977437264674966086202
The Shield644460105568528852015082
The Web58095276498147634640

This is (in fact) a list of every major title that was cancelled pre-new 52 for about the past 2 years... excluding those cancelled for the purposes of the relaunch itself (which admittedly might include JSA All-Stars, given the timing of the final issue). The first column indicates the released sales the month cancellation was announced, the final indicates the sales # of the final issue. The Web did not chart its final issue. Streets of Gotham, included here, was noted to have closed its story, so those numbers are less indicative of the trend.

Whats that you say? This trend was just in the past couple of years? No no my friend, no no! "All-New Atom" was previously announced cancelled with the sales level of at 13,560. Infinity Inc. at 11,328. The previous run of Firestorm was announced cancelled at the level of 16,068 (making the recent number of 16,007 less than ideal).

Even higher tiers, like Aquaman were previously cancelled at the level of 16,778. Hawgirl at 16,575. Catwoman at 18,609. That would appear to be threshold (IMO) for the B-listers... which brings me again to another (wildly substantiated only by my somewhat logical mind) proposal, the cancellation thresholds:

A-List Threshold: 30,000 Units (The once acclaimed Green Arrow run bowed out at 31,798).

B-List Threshold: 16,000 to 18,000 Units (At least moderately tenured heroes)

C-List Threshold: 13,000 Units (Covering the bases of most the rest)

D-List Threshold: 8,000 (The most acclaimed of critical darlings, you know, the ones people aren't reading)

F-List Threshold: 5,000 (A focused series of reprints, one-shots and the like)

I understood about.... 45% of that?

But long story short you're saying I, Vampire should be safe, and that's good enough for me XP

#40 Posted by The Mighty Monarch (2137 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheOptimist said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@TheOptimist said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@The Mighty Monarch: I, Vampire is the second or third lowest ongoing at DC

It is doing much better than you think.

Captain Atom, Voodoo, Blue Beetle, Grifter, Resurrection Man, Firestorm, DCU Presents and Legion Lost all did worse than I, Vampire in the most recent charts. It has also held on to a comparatively large chunk of readers. So 9th lowest ongoing... plus the 6 that were cancelled. Also doing better than almost all mini-series (and nearly all Vertigo books, even American Vampire).

It only sold about 16,000 the last three months, the cut of figure is 20,000 also low Vertigo sales are sadly to be expected as readers have no taste.

See my above evidence that the rumor of 20,000 is not much more than that... the 20 K number was raised to attention when mentioned by Scott McDaniel in an interview regarding Static Shock... wherein it was referenced that any title selling below that line entered the general realm of potential cancellation. Dropping below that line itself is not a death sentence, it merely begs for watch and stabilization. Many of the above series carried their entire runs (several years often) below the 20k line.

I love the graph that McDaniel used as evidence to support his decisions on Static Shock. It basically proved how good a writer Rozum was. Even Animal Man had a big decline, but Xombi was almost a freaking horizontal line.

Sigh...

#41 Posted by blur1528 (1033 posts) - - Show Bio

@Loki9876 said:

I hope they do NOT cancel resurrection man

That series has got to be the most fun book to read. EVER. OF ALL TIME.

#42 Posted by sinestro_GL (3321 posts) - - Show Bio

They need to put Batman: TDK out of its misery

#43 Posted by Lvenger (21143 posts) - - Show Bio

@jsphsmth: Scarecrow did just get an appearence in Detective Comics but if he's exploring Batman's rogues gallery, I suppose that's a good direction to take the book in. And if you say the Penguin mini series was good then you've raised my hopes about the Dark Knight.

#44 Posted by Saren (25055 posts) - - Show Bio

I hope there's a New Gods or Spectre title in the third wave (though the latter may be wishful thinking).

Moderator
#45 Posted by TheMess1428 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyone agree that there should be a Red Robin title by Kyle Higgins and Trevor McCarthy? I just hope that when the cancellations come in, and we all know they will, that the dying just die and we don't get screwed over on any titles that don't need to cancel or change.

#46 Posted by The_Tree (7930 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheMess1428: I'd rather just have Nicieza and To come back for writing and art.

I like Kyle, but I think Nicieza's better, and he's already written Tim before. And I'm not too big on Trevor McCarthy, I think his artwork comes off as too cartoony. I just miss the old series, it was sooooooo good.

Online
#47 Posted by Adnan (1021 posts) - - Show Bio

What big hitters do DC have outside the Batfamily? There are way too many Bat-books out as it is, I'm surprised people are still asking for more. But a new wave of titles will need a couple 'sure-to-sell' properties...I could see Vic Sage getting a title, he's pretty popular I think. But who else? Another Lantern book, perhaps?

#48 Posted by TheMess1428 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio

@Adnan said:

What big hitters do DC have outside the Batfamily? There are way too many Bat-books out as it is, I'm surprised people are still asking for more. But a new wave of titles will need a couple 'sure-to-sell' properties...I could see Vic Sage getting a title, he's pretty popular I think. But who else? Another Lantern book, perhaps?

I definitely agree on the too many Bat-titles. TDK needs to just go away. It was originally created to show Batman in supernatural situations but now it's like pure crap on a stick. And "pure crap on a stick" is a technical term. Detective Comics needs to become a DC Universe Presents type title but only in the Bat universe. With characters like Alfred, Azrael, Black Bat, Spoiler, Nightrunner, Red Robin, and other Batman Incorporated members having random storyarcs.

As for the Lanterns, Red Lanterns either needs to die or be rejoined by Guy Gardner. And as for a new one, possibly if they decided to split Sinestro and Hal Jordan up and give Sinestro his own title and give back the main title to Hal.

Booster Gold needs his time travel stories back. I hear they are making a Cyborg title. We need a title set in the past explaining the history of the original Titans without the name Teen Titans since they apparently were never called that.

#49 Edited by Adnan (1021 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheMess1428: I've only read a few issues of TDK but yeah, it certainly seemed directionless. The guy who wrote the well-recieved Penguin mini is going to be co-writing it, but even then I agree that it should go. a Gotham anthology title would be good. I'm assuming Batman Inc turns into an anthology title for Batman Inc members once the main story is done.
 
My Lanterns knowledge is weak, but with the various other corps, I'm wondering why there are 3 titles and 4 of them are all based on the Green Lantern Corps.
 
I'm hoping most of JLI gets absorbed into JL, which then becomes a JLU-style team - It'd allow Booster some freedom too. And yeah, Johns implied that he wants a Cyborg ongoing at C2E2 earlier today, that might end up being seen as pretty big.
#50 Edited by TheMess1428 (2176 posts) - - Show Bio

@Adnan said:

@TheMess1428: My Lanterns knowledge is weak, but with the various other corps, I'm wondering why there are 4 titles and 4 of them are all based on the Green Lantern Corps.

Well they have GREEN LANTERN, which focuses on Hal Jordan and Sinestro and their relationship with each other now that Sinestro has rejoined the Green Lantern Corps and Hal Jordan was kicked out. GREEN LANTERN CORPS, which focuses mostly on John Stewart and Guy Gardner but has a lot of appearances of random other Corps members. GREEN LANTERN: NEW GUARDIANS, which is a team led by Kyle Rayner that has one member of each color corps. And RED LANTERNS, which is just focused on the Red Lantern Corps and their position in the universe.

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