If you haven't seen the movie, stop now, half this thing is covered in spoiler blocks for a reason.

Lets not take this the wrong way. I liked the movie. The first time I saw it I was on the edge of my seat following each character’s agenda, and the underlying themes. The second time it was a good action movie. Both times though, I left the theatre thinking “were I not a fan, and familiar with the mythology, how would I take this movie?"

For such a long movie, it felt like many things were rushed, and I think what stands out most explicitly was the size of the cast In addition to Batman and Bane, our primary protagonist and antagonists, we have a returning Alfred, Lucius Fox, James Gordon, and newcomers John Blake, Selina Kyle, and Talia Al Guhl. Alfred says his piece and exits, Gordon and Fox are interwoven with the plot, which leaves three major characters who need to be fully developed by the end of the film. My contention, is that since our two ladies already exist in the comics, and each have over 40 years of publishing behind them, the writers and Nolan decided they could cut corners, and leave the fans to fill in the blanks.

Selina’s entire narrative feels rushed, and her motivations never really explored. We establish her as a burglar of some skill in the beginning, imply that she runs with and may be or have been a prostitute. Then we spend the rest of the film moving her from unsure in her self-serving survivalist ways and her feelings for Batman to happily ever after. We never get the real foundation of what got her where she is, how, if not why she wants the blank slate, and how her interactions with Batman and the events of Bane’s martial law turn her towards altruism. It’s not that her change isn’t appropriate, it’s just not justified within the film itself. She doesn’t have enough screen time (or perhaps, the screen time she is given is not used with enough economy) to make such moves. Still, it’s what we want to see, and it’s what we are given. I’m contending that Selina deserves better than that. As Fan service, it was great. As filmmaking? It was cheap corner cutting.

Talia got even less screen time than Selina, certainly once she outed herself. For such a major character, her motives get narrowed down to being daddy’s girl, as if we are supposed to just cut and paste the monologues from the first film into her mouth. True, I don’t want to sit through something redundant in a three hour movie, but both she and Bane deserve more autonomy than this. This is the Mother of Batman’s son we’re talking about here, who is one of the world’s most deadly assassins, and all she manages to do for herself in the film is sleep with Bruce (which is not thoroughly motivated in film- she already had what she wanted, what was she just trying to get further in his head? Deepen his trust? Again, we accept this scene because as fans we want them together, but within the film, there isn’t much reason for it. She doesn’t want to marry him. She just wants to destroy him), order a truck around, and then die poorly in a car crash.

We accept these shortcuts because we know and love these characters, but not everyone does. What the hell was the average moviegoer supposed to make of Talia? If anything, our love for these characters should demand a more realized roll for them in this film. I had one discussion on the matter that suggested a film focusing on the Bat-Cat relationship had more potential to reach the philosophical, psychological and ethical heights and grays seen in the other two films. Of course it has less explosion potential, and I can’t blame Nolan for wanting to go out with a bang. Still, you’ve got to wonder.

@Blood1991 said:

I think Selina's lack of history could work in her favor if they wanted her to star in a prequel.

Hypothetically yes, but I doubt Nolan is interested in such affairs. The studios would love it, no doubt, but without Nolan, I don't think you can really try to place it in a shared universe.

God forbid Nolan expected a basic level of competency on behalf of the viewer.  
 
Watch a James Cameron film if you want every little detail spoonfed into your mouth. 

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

God forbid Nolan expected a basic level of competency on behalf of the viewer. Watch a James Cameron film if you want every little detail spoonfed into your mouth.

I don't know, he did plenty of spoon feeding as it was. How about the ending? Fans knew it with the line about the autopilot. Non-Fans knew when they saw Alfred in Italy. Fine have him lift the glass, we don't need it spelled out. I felt insulted by that. John's name was worse. (I'm going to say those were the studio's fault, it's not like him).

I'm not talking about spoon feeding, I'm talking about rounding out characters and justifying their actions. I have enough respect for the director that I'm going to say it's a coincidence that two women get the short end of the stick.

@The Stegman said:

If you really want that much backstory, then you'd end up sitting through a 5 hour movie.

Justifying character development isn't really back story, and I'm sure they could have cut something from that heat-seeker sequence that dragged on forever.

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

God forbid Nolan expected a basic level of competency on behalf of the viewer. Watch a James Cameron film if you want every little detail spoonfed into your mouth.

I don't know, he did plenty of spoon feeding as it was. How about the ending? Fans knew it with the line about the autopilot. Non-Fans knew when they saw Alfred in Italy. fine have him lift the glass, we don't need it spelled out.

I'm not talking about spoon feeding, I'm talking about rounding out characters and justifying their actions. I have enough respect for the director that I'm going to say it's a coincidence that two women get the short end of the stick.

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@stambo42 said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

God forbid Nolan expected a basic level of competency on behalf of the viewer. Watch a James Cameron film if you want every little detail spoonfed into your mouth.

I don't know, he did plenty of spoon feeding as it was. How about the ending? Fans knew it with the line about the autopilot. Non-Fans knew when they saw Alfred in Italy. fine have him lift the glass, we don't need it spelled out.

I'm not talking about spoon feeding, I'm talking about rounding out characters and justifying their actions. I have enough respect for the director that I'm going to say it's a coincidence that two women get the short end of the stick.

Oh my God. The final scene wasn't about showing that Bruce was alive, it was showing that he had moved on and got a happy ending. The autopilot scene was for Lucius' sake, not Bruce's. You clearly missed the whole point, which is scary, because that wasn't very complicated. The women didn't get the short end of the stick, just because you don't sit through 3 hours of exposition about their history's doesn't mean they were screwed over. We know what happened to Talia, she grew up in the Pit, was the first to escape, cared deeply for Bane (though not romantically), was obviously insane, manipulative and intelligent and she was a highly effective villain that rounded out one of the themes of the film; things from the past affecting the future. It can be easily assumed that Catwoman had a hard life growing up so she turned to thievery, which she realised she excelled at and considering the socio-economic status of the poor in Gotham, she probably didn't excel at much, so she kept being a thief. Nevertheless, she didn't want to do that and wanted to escape her past, but she couldn't until she had atoned for it (another theme from the film). She ultimately did atone as she realised she cared not only for the well-being of Bruce but also the city, and so her character arc was rounded out and she got a happy ending. This half-hearted accusation of misogyny on Nolan's part is just pathetic, when the reality is, these "blanks" just required a modicum of thought.

Yeah, and that point would have been made with the glass lift. We even would have assumed he was with Selina.

Again, I didn't have a problem with the exposition so much. That was fine. I'm talking about developing a character from their first appearance to where they end. I'm saying that for Selina it felt flat and forced... like she was going through the motions... and not because of Hathaway. Maybe with another scene and a half it could have been fleshed out, made to feel organic. You can disagree if you like, but I couldn't shake the feeling either time I saw the film.

In the main site review's comment section someone points out all the holes in Talia's motivation, and her plan. Saying a character is "obviously insane" is a cop out. Frankly, I don't care how full of holes her plan was, I could more easily let that go for purposes of enjoying the film, since it's so central to the narrative.

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@stambo42 said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

God forbid Nolan expected a basic level of competency on behalf of the viewer. Watch a James Cameron film if you want every little detail spoonfed into your mouth.

I don't know, he did plenty of spoon feeding as it was. How about the ending? Fans knew it with the line about the autopilot. Non-Fans knew when they saw Alfred in Italy. fine have him lift the glass, we don't need it spelled out.

I'm not talking about spoon feeding, I'm talking about rounding out characters and justifying their actions. I have enough respect for the director that I'm going to say it's a coincidence that two women get the short end of the stick.

Oh my God. The final scene wasn't about showing that Bruce was alive, it was showing that he had moved on and got a happy ending. The autopilot scene was for Lucius' sake, not Bruce's. You clearly missed the whole point, which is scary, because that wasn't very complicated. The women didn't get the short end of the stick, just because you don't sit through 3 hours of exposition about their history's doesn't mean they were screwed over. We know what happened to Talia, she grew up in the Pit, was the first to escape, cared deeply for Bane (though not romantically), was obviously insane, manipulative and intelligent and she was a highly effective villain that rounded out one of the themes of the film; things from the past affecting the future. It can be easily assumed that Catwoman had a hard life growing up so she turned to thievery, which she realised she excelled at and considering the socio-economic status of the poor in Gotham, she probably didn't excel at much, so she kept being a thief. Nevertheless, she didn't want to do that and wanted to escape her past, but she couldn't until she had atoned for it (another theme from the film). She ultimately did atone as she realised she cared not only for the well-being of Bruce but also the city, and so her character arc was rounded out and she got a happy ending. This half-hearted accusation of misogyny on Nolan's part is just pathetic, when the reality is, these "blanks" just required a modicum of thought.

Yeah, and that point would have been made with the glass lift. We even would have assumed he was with Selina.

Again, I didn't have a problem with the exposition so much. That was fine. I'm talking about developing a character from their first appearance to where they end. I'm saying that for Selina it felt flat and forced, and not because of Hathaway. Maybe with another scene and a half it could have been fleshed out, made to feel organic. You can disagree if you like, but I couldn't shake the feeling either time I saw the film.

In the main site review's comment section someone points out all the holes in Talia's motivation, and her plan. Saying a character is "obviously insane" is a cop out. Frankly, I don't care how full of holes her plan was, I could more easily let that go for purposes of enjoying the film, since it's so central to the narrative.

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

Not even going to argue that, you're debating against a half second shot that 99% of the audience were thrilled with. That's fine, that just means you're wrong, you don't need to write a blog insulting someone's integrity every time you're wrong. It's not a cop out, when someone is insane, they're insane. We can go into the degrees of her insanity, which were evident, she was obsessed with her own father. She was obsessed with finding him, then hating him, then loving and avenging him. It was a clear pseudo-Elektra Complex. She had sex with Bruce because it made her closer to the man who killed her father, to the man who, in a lot of ways, was her father's surrogate child. She knew that Bruce was his greatest pupil, that Ra's wanted him to lead the League, having sex with him brought her a kind of intimacy with Ra's. She had no real reason to live outside of her father's mission. She was raised in a hole with nothing but the word of her mother that her father was a great and wonderful man worth sentencing yourself to Hell for. After his death, her main purpose in life, to find then fight her father was gone, and so she only wanted to avenge him and finish his magnum opus; the destruction of Gotham. After that, she had no reason to live. But to the layman, she's just insane, and that's fine.

Where are you getting all that from? There's barely even a hint of what kind of relationship Talia had with Ra's.

@FadeToBlackBolt: Except Talia's mother didn't know that she was pregnant when she gave up her life for Ra's so we have no idea whether she regretted that decision.

Talia seeking Ra's out isn't evidence of some kind of obsession. Ra's is her father and he has the resources to not only give her a better life but to help both her mother, whom Talia didn't know had died, and Bane. So how do you even know she sought out Ra's for herself rather than for her mother and Bane?

The exile of Bane may have angered Talia but there's nothing to suggest that it caused some kind of huge schism between her and Ra's, nor was there anything to suggest that it shook her belief in the League since the exile of Bane was unrelated to the League's goal.

Also, it wouldn't have even made sense for Talia's mother to tell her about Ra's in the first place. The whole point of the Pit is that it's meant to dash people's hopes. By telling Talia about Ra's, her mother would only give her false hope and condemn her to the same suffering that she's experiencing.

And which psych "theories" are you referring to?

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@stambo42 said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

@stambo42 said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

God forbid Nolan expected a basic level of competency on behalf of the viewer. Watch a James Cameron film if you want every little detail spoonfed into your mouth.

I don't know, he did plenty of spoon feeding as it was. How about the ending? Fans knew it with the line about the autopilot. Non-Fans knew when they saw Alfred in Italy. fine have him lift the glass, we don't need it spelled out.

I'm not talking about spoon feeding, I'm talking about rounding out characters and justifying their actions. I have enough respect for the director that I'm going to say it's a coincidence that two women get the short end of the stick.

Oh my God. The final scene wasn't about showing that Bruce was alive, it was showing that he had moved on and got a happy ending. The autopilot scene was for Lucius' sake, not Bruce's. You clearly missed the whole point, which is scary, because that wasn't very complicated. The women didn't get the short end of the stick, just because you don't sit through 3 hours of exposition about their history's doesn't mean they were screwed over. We know what happened to Talia, she grew up in the Pit, was the first to escape, cared deeply for Bane (though not romantically), was obviously insane, manipulative and intelligent and she was a highly effective villain that rounded out one of the themes of the film; things from the past affecting the future. It can be easily assumed that Catwoman had a hard life growing up so she turned to thievery, which she realised she excelled at and considering the socio-economic status of the poor in Gotham, she probably didn't excel at much, so she kept being a thief. Nevertheless, she didn't want to do that and wanted to escape her past, but she couldn't until she had atoned for it (another theme from the film). She ultimately did atone as she realised she cared not only for the well-being of Bruce but also the city, and so her character arc was rounded out and she got a happy ending. This half-hearted accusation of misogyny on Nolan's part is just pathetic, when the reality is, these "blanks" just required a modicum of thought.

Yeah, and that point would have been made with the glass lift. We even would have assumed he was with Selina.

Again, I didn't have a problem with the exposition so much. That was fine. I'm talking about developing a character from their first appearance to where they end. I'm saying that for Selina it felt flat and forced, and not because of Hathaway. Maybe with another scene and a half it could have been fleshed out, made to feel organic. You can disagree if you like, but I couldn't shake the feeling either time I saw the film.

In the main site review's comment section someone points out all the holes in Talia's motivation, and her plan. Saying a character is "obviously insane" is a cop out. Frankly, I don't care how full of holes her plan was, I could more easily let that go for purposes of enjoying the film, since it's so central to the narrative.

Not even going to argue that, you're debating against a half second shot that 99% of the audience were thrilled with. That's fine, that just means you're wrong, you don't need to write a blog insulting someone's integrity every time you're wrong. It's not a cop out, when someone is insane, they're insane. We can go into the degrees of her insanity, which were evident, she was obsessed with her own father. She was obsessed with finding him, then hating him, then loving and avenging him. It was a clear pseudo-Elektra Complex. She had sex with Bruce because it made her closer to the man who killed her father, to the man who, in a lot of ways, was her father's surrogate child. She knew that Bruce was his greatest pupil, that Ra's wanted him to lead the League, having sex with him brought her a kind of intimacy with Ra's. She had no real reason to live outside of her father's mission. She was raised in a hole with nothing but the word of her mother that her father was a great and wonderful man worth sentencing yourself to Hell for. After his death, her main purpose in life, to find then fight her father was gone, and so she only wanted to avenge him and finish his magnum opus; the destruction of Gotham. After that, she had no reason to live. But to the layman, she's just insane, and that's fine.

What means I'm wrong exactly? That I think Selina was walking forced down a predestined and tired narrative without sufficient justification or qualification? Because you disagree? It's called a difference of opinion, and it's an opinion I share with both of the educated women whom I've discussed this with. You can have flat background characters, but when you devote narrative to a character making a major change, that becomes important to the film. She spends the whole movie dancing on a plot line, rather than growing.

You seem to really enjoy filling blanks, cause you did a whole lot there for Talia. Your take works too, but it's not the only one, nor does by virtue of your stating it, it become fact. You seem to have a problem with this. There's no such thing as just plain insane. Nor is it measured in degrees. There are many different brands. The last movie devoted itself to an antagonist who thrived on a well developed and particular insanity... So I don't think Nolan is too keen on "when someone is insane, they're insane". Frankly, that's bad writing. The basics of her motivation are there, as you so vividly described, but it doesn't change that fact that she's flat and lacks autonomy as a primary antagonist. Nolan is smart enough to be intentfull with her lack of autonomy, to do or say something with it, but he doesn't. Mind you that doesn't mean spelling out motivation. That means giving a little meta-narrative wink about knowing a character lacks autonomy- and directing that energy and tension with purpose, rather than leaving it flapping in the breeze.

You don't even need to add scenes to fix these things, you can just shoot a few things more knowingly.

None of this ruins the movie, but it does place it below the quality and depth we saw in the predecessors, and what Nolan is capable of.

@stambo42:

@Gambler:

@entropy_aegis said:

@Watcherg6 said:

@stambo42:

SPOILER WARNING: Click here to reveal hidden content.

ok Marion was one of the Strongest ones in the movie. i have now watched it twice, and Marion had to be planning this for years. There is now way Bane would have figured out who batman was with out her. Bane is just a hired gun in this movie, I big one I'll say, but he didn't plan this. And Marion didn't count for catwoman at all i don't think.

@Gambler:

SPOILER WARNING: Click here to reveal hidden content.

She got enough screen time she needed, For the story, she had be near all the big people, but enough so that no one will think she is the big boss.

Ofcourse Bane planned it,last time I checked it was'nt Talia who found Gordons letter.

I get the impression the two had been working together on and off for all her life, so it's hard to say where one's efforts end and the other's begin. It also doesn't really matter to my point. Even if she was the mastermind behind the plan (which had a number of holes I'm excusing), she was still a flat and underdeveloped character. Because she fills a singular role, and does't change over the course of the film (towards herself, not in the eyes of the audience) it's excusable. It would have been nicer having a more rounded antagonist, but it can get along. In case the breadth of my original post left this unclear, the part that disappointed me most was the lack of justification for Selina's transformation. When you have a major character making a major change, there is more of an obligation to justify thier movements in character.

@stambo42: With Catwoman, I felt plenty of relation to Bruce Wayne from Batman Begins, in fact, TDKR was incredibly enjoyable to me because I watched the previous two Batman films the weekend before I watched TDKR.

The parallels I noticed between Catwoman and Batman of BB were these:

1) Stole things: At the start of Batman Begins, Batman messed around with theft, experimented with being a criminal, trying to understand what it means to be a thief. Catwoman steals also. In fact, Batman appears to feel triumphant in forming a relationship and working to persuade Selina Kyle to reform as well.

2) Is a menace to fellow prisoners: Selina Kyle goes to prison, and royally snaps some sorry guy's wrist for giving her cat-calls. Passing mention was given about how she broke out of a Juvenile Correction Facility. She gets a cell of her own in the Gotham Prison to keep the other prisoners safe from her ass-kicking. Batman got himself into prison, beat the living daylights out of a group of thugs, and got sent to solitary confinement to protect the other prisoners from him, until Ra's Al Ghul offered him the release, which he took.

3) Compliment to Batman: Catwoman posed a character conflict with Batman, including disagreement with him in how he fights. Admires him, but is willing to be realistic at times, including taking out Bane with the Batpods, AP rounds. Sure, some people were disappointed, but I liked this as a way of contrasting Catwoman to Batman, showing that she ultimately did care about Batman, and showing as well that her way of fighting, while different, was just plain-out practical, a drawn-out fight with Bane would cut the time down for Batman and Catwoman to chase down the bomb.

4) Wayne's True Character: The biggest thing I noticed about The Dark Knight Trilogy was the fact that Bruce Wayne didn't like being a billionaire playboy. He didn't like the celebrity life, it was all an act, and a means of throwing off suspicion that this drunken rich dude could possibly be Batman. In reality, he liked being the exploring guy who goes off on adventures more, even complimenting Selina Kyle, her apartment, and so on.

Either way, by observing how Catwoman compared and contrasted to the way that Batman/Bruce Wayne was, it pretty much made me satisfied with the ending, because it all went to show how Catwoman's character complimented Bruce in so many ways, it wasn't a surprise to me how the film ended. If Batman was really dead, and Alfred was simply hallucinating, well, there's good reason why he would be hallucinating Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle together.

Regarding Talia, I was thoroughly disappointed, not by the logic of it, but by how much of a showing was given to her given how important of a character she was. I mean, she is the heiress of Ra's Al Ghul, she has to have so much more to her than just a knife to the side and a car chase off the freeway. Either way, the problem I had was the fact that Bane had pretty much stolen the show with his ruthless, badass nature, and visibly forward control of the situation. Finally, I didn't understand why Talia seduced Batman. Did she poison him? Simply make him feel overconfident to go to Bane kicking his $%^. I honestly didn't get it, and it felt anti-climactic in that regard.

@entropy_aegis: Bane came across to me as a commando. He knew the main mission objectives, and he could accomplish them with style and creativity. The extent to which he or Talia were the brains behind it remained pretty ambiguous, though.

I would say that Talia was the brains behind the operation since Bane had no real incentive for a lot of the stuff he did. There's no reason for Bane to really hate Batman or want him to suffer. Why did Bane want to throw Bruce in the Pit instead of just killing him right there? Batman never really did anything to Bane. However, Batman was responsible for the death of Ra's al Ghul and almost destroyed the League of Shadows and that's a good reason for Talia to want to make him suffer.

@DieHard200904 said:

@stambo42: With Catwoman, I felt plenty of relation to Bruce Wayne from Batman Begins, in fact, TDKR was incredibly enjoyable to me because I watched the previous two Batman films the weekend before I watched TDKR.

The parallels I noticed between Catwoman and Batman of BB were these:

1) Stole things: At the start of Batman Begins, Batman messed around with theft, experimented with being a criminal, trying to understand what it means to be a thief. Catwoman steals also. In fact, Batman appears to feel triumphant in forming a relationship and working to persuade Selina Kyle to reform as well.

2) Is a menace to fellow prisoners: Selina Kyle goes to prison, and royally snaps some sorry guy's wrist for giving her cat-calls. Passing mention was given about how she broke out of a Juvenile Correction Facility. She gets a cell of her own in the Gotham Prison to keep the other prisoners safe from her ass-kicking. Batman got himself into prison, beat the living daylights out of a group of thugs, and got sent to solitary confinement to protect the other prisoners from him, until Ra's Al Ghul offered him the release, which he took.

3) Compliment to Batman: Catwoman posed a character conflict with Batman, including disagreement with him in how he fights. Admires him, but is willing to be realistic at times, including taking out Bane with the Batpods, AP rounds. Sure, some people were disappointed, but I liked this as a way of contrasting Catwoman to Batman, showing that she ultimately did care about Batman, and showing as well that her way of fighting, while different, was just plain-out practical, a drawn-out fight with Bane would cut the time down for Batman and Catwoman to chase down the bomb.

4) Wayne's True Character: The biggest thing I noticed about The Dark Knight Trilogy was the fact that Bruce Wayne didn't like being a billionaire playboy. He didn't like the celebrity life, it was all an act, and a means of throwing off suspicion that this drunken rich dude could possibly be Batman. In reality, he liked being the exploring guy who goes off on adventures more, even complimenting Selina Kyle, her apartment, and so on.

Either way, by observing how Catwoman compared and contrasted to the way that Batman/Bruce Wayne was, it pretty much made me satisfied with the ending, because it all went to show how Catwoman's character complimented Bruce in so many ways, it wasn't a surprise to me how the film ended. If Batman was really dead, and Alfred was simply hallucinating, well, there's good reason why he would be hallucinating Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle together.

Regarding Talia, I was thoroughly disappointed, not by the logic of it, but by how much of a showing was given to her given how important of a character she was. I mean, she is the heiress of Ra's Al Ghul, she has to have so much more to her than just a knife to the side and a car chase off the freeway. Either way, the problem I had was the fact that Bane had pretty much stolen the show with his ruthless, badass nature, and visibly forward control of the situation. Finally, I didn't understand why Talia seduced Batman. Did she poison him? Simply make him feel overconfident to go to Bane kicking his $%^. I honestly didn't get it, and it felt anti-climactic in that regard.

Maybe I need to rewatch Begins, it has been years. Still, I don't know that this addresses my core issue, that she lack life and felt like a predestined plot device rather than a person with her own history and transformation.

The show is called, the dark knight rises, not the women of dark knight rises. lol.

ridiculous.

@sethysquare said:

The show is called, the dark knight rises, not the women of dark knight rises. lol.

ridiculous.

The preceding movie drew much of its strength from a strong antagonist, and a strong supporting character. Strong films contain strong characters, not a single strong character and a bunch of forced flat plot devices disguised as people.

@stambo42 said:

@sethysquare said:

The show is called, the dark knight rises, not the women of dark knight rises. lol.

ridiculous.

The preceding movie drew much of its strength from a strong antagonist, and a strong supporting character. Strong films contain strong characters, not a single strong character and a bunch of forced flat plot devices disguised as people.

who says catwoman wasn't kick ass? She was a strong supporting character and one that played a huge role in the movie.

Selina’s entire narrative feels rushed, and her motivations never really explored. We establish her as a burglar of some skill in the beginning, imply that she runs with and may be or have been a prostitute. Then we spend the rest of the film moving her from unsure in her self-serving survivalist ways and her feelings for Batman to happily ever after. We never get the real foundation of what got her where she is, how, if not why she wants the blank slate, and how her interactions with Batman and the events of Bane’s martial law turn her towards altruism. It’s not that her change isn’t appropriate, it’s just not justified within the film itself. She doesn’t have enough screen time to make such moves. Still, it’s what we want to see, and it’s what we are given. I’m contending that Selina deserves better than that. As Fan service, it was great. As filmmaking? It was cheap corner cutting.

Firstly, this sounds ridiculous and its what I'm saying exactly that it is not the women of dark knight rises.

Did we see how Joker's motivation was explored? No. Did we see how Scarecrow's motivation was explored? No. The only person that has their motivation explored was Two Face.

This show isn't about Selina, there is no need to explore her origins. She was able to deliver and add great depth to her character as a suporting character, she played an integral role to the movie and she had buck loads of screen time. If you tihnk "we spend the rest of the film moving her from unsure in her self-serving survivalist ways and her feelings for Batman to happily ever after." then you probably did not watch the movie carefully. Let me break it down for you.

Selina showed she was a chameleon, a skilled burglar who was able to have several disguises and successfully steal Bruce Wayne's necklace, on top of that, she stole his finger prints, the best way possible, because she made deal with John Daggett. Then when she passed the prints to Daggett she got backstabbed by him. After which she went to Daggett to reclaim what was hers, she tried to steal back from John Daggett but when she cracked the safe, she didn't get anything so she attacked him and got saved by Batman.

During the dance, she said to batman, "theres a storm coming Mr Wayne...... You're all gonna wonder how you can live so large and leave so little for the rest of us" She then went on to say how she only steals from the rich.

Clearly, it showed a ton of motivation that she was never a bad person, but raised in bad circumstances, she felt oppressed, that the rich and corrupt is getting richer, while the poor gets poorer. Obviously, subscribing to the concept of money being a finite resource.

She was then shown that she was terrified of Bane, which is why she betrayed Batman, someone who she had admired, from her body language you can tell that she feels that Batman is doing a city a favour. "you don't owe these people anymore"

What she did was simply bringing Batman to Bane and it is also what Batman wanted. He asked Selina, to bring him to Bane. But she wanted a place where she can escape because she does not have faith in Batman, that he can defeat Bane.

Ofcourse when she found out Bruce Wayne was Batman, everything changed. She knew Bruce has been trying to do his best for the city. She knows Gotham is a corrupted, filthy city. But Bruce Wayne, seeing the good in the people, wanted to save them. Jailing the corrupt and freeing the oppressed. She thought the solution through purging by Bane's way was what she wanted. But she started to have second thoughts on that. This can be evident by Holly asking her "Now this is everyone's home, isn't this what you wanted" you can tell from her facial expression that she knew she was wrong and she wished she had not helped Bane. This is exactly what Selina is like in the comics. She is an anti hero, conflicted between helping the good and the evil.

So the final time she met Bruce Wayne, she already knew his identity, and you can also tell from her expressions that she tried to play coy like how Catwoman does. Anne Hathaway did a great job with that. He expressions mirrors what Catwoman would be like on screen. When she found out Bruce Wayne knew she was the burglur that stole his mum's pearls at the start of the show, she changed her expression to one of a smug, unrepentant thief. That is the same expression she showed Bruce Wayne when he asked her to help. But Bruce Wayne saw the good in her. He knew she wasn't a bad person, because its due to circumstances that made her like that and she was only trying to steal from the rich and help the poor. He saw how she helped the little boy and even before that he can read her like an open book. Thats why he offered her the device to erase all of her history to start afresh because he knew she just want to do that. Selina showed she had many dimensions to her character. Even at the end when she asked Bruce to run away with her, she knew what she was doing. She was never the hero, she hated gotham, hated the rich and the corrupt and she knows Batman had always been there for the poor. She admired and adored him and wanted to leave with him, because Gotham deserves what they got. But Bruce certainly did not feel that. At the end she did came back and blasted Bane off. Clearly, Bane already lost lots of strength from the fight with Batman and also lost the will to live, knowing that the bomb would explode. But nevertheless, she whipped his ass, saved bruce and with her help, Batman saved Gotham again.

At the last scene she was wearing the pearls which Batman took from her. Which was how Alfred tracked them down after Lucius Fox found out Bruce Wayne actually fixed the auto pilot 6 months ago already.

She showed that she was skilled as a burglar, she showed she was innately a good person, but given up on the system and punished the rich and corrupt in her own way. She showed she had tons of dimensions to her character and she showed she is not to be trifled with.

Is that not enough? Anne Hathaway especially did a great job conveying that message to the audience. She did not have to say much, because she is just part of the supporting character, which included John Blake, Alfred, Bane, Lucius Fox, Gordon, Alfred, Miranda Tate, the prisoned doctor and etc. Everyone had a role to build towards the ending. Everyone did a great job. Ultimately this is a show about Batman and not everyone need to have their origins as explored as Harvey Dent. But Anne Hathaway, with her subtle smug, her body language, her expression and the little things she had to say, showed us how great she coveyed who Catwoman is. My girlfriends that watched the show with me thought she was a kick ass character and said they loved Catwoman in the movie.

@sethysquare said:

@stambo42 said:

@sethysquare said:

The show is called, the dark knight rises, not the women of dark knight rises. lol.

ridiculous.

The preceding movie drew much of its strength from a strong antagonist, and a strong supporting character. Strong films contain strong characters, not a single strong character and a bunch of forced flat plot devices disguised as people.

who says catwoman wasn't kick ass? She was a strong supporting character and one that played a huge role in the movie.

Selina’s entire narrative feels rushed, and her motivations never really explored. We establish her as a burglar of some skill in the beginning, imply that she runs with and may be or have been a prostitute. Then we spend the rest of the film moving her from unsure in her self-serving survivalist ways and her feelings for Batman to happily ever after. We never get the real foundation of what got her where she is, how, if not why she wants the blank slate, and how her interactions with Batman and the events of Bane’s martial law turn her towards altruism. It’s not that her change isn’t appropriate, it’s just not justified within the film itself. She doesn’t have enough screen time to make such moves. Still, it’s what we want to see, and it’s what we are given. I’m contending that Selina deserves better than that. As Fan service, it was great. As filmmaking? It was cheap corner cutting.

Firstly, this sounds ridiculous and its what I'm saying exactly that it is not the women of dark knight rises.

Did we see how Joker's motivation was explored? No. Did we see how Scarecrow's motivation was explored? No. The only person that has their motivation explored was Two Face.

This show isn't about Selina, there is no need to explore her origins. She was able to deliver and add great depth to her character as a suporting character, she played an integral role to the movie and she had buck loads of screen time. If you tihnk "we spend the rest of the film moving her from unsure in her self-serving survivalist ways and her feelings for Batman to happily ever after." then you probably did not watch the movie carefully. Let me break it down for you.

Selina showed she was a chameleon, a skilled burglar who was able to have several disguises and successfully steal Bruce Wayne's necklace, on top of that, she stole his finger prints, the best way possible, because she made deal with John Daggett. Then when she passed the prints to Daggett she got backstabbed by him. After which she went to Daggett to reclaim what was hers, she tried to steal back from John Daggett but when she cracked the safe, she didn't get anything so she attacked him and got saved by Batman.

During the dance, she said to batman, "theres a storm coming Mr Wayne...... You're all gonna wonder how you can live so large and leave so little for the rest of us" She then went on to say how she only steals from the rich.

Clearly, it showed a ton of motivation that she was never a bad person, but raised in bad circumstances, she felt oppressed, that the rich and corrupt is getting richer, while the poor gets poorer. Obviously, subscribing to the concept of money being a finite resource.

She was then shown that she was terrified of Bane, which is why she betrayed Batman, someone who she had admired, from her body language you can tell that she feels that Batman is doing a city a favour. "you don't owe these people anymore"

What she did was simply bringing Batman to Bane and it is also what Batman wanted. He asked Selina, to bring him to Bane. But she wanted a place where she can escape because she does not have faith in Batman, that he can defeat Bane.

Ofcourse when she found out Bruce Wayne was Batman, everything changed. She knew Bruce has been trying to do his best for the city. She knows Gotham is a corrupted, filthy city. But Bruce Wayne, seeing the good in the people, wanted to save them. Jailing the corrupt and freeing the oppressed. She thought the solution through purging by Bane's way was what she wanted. But she started to have second thoughts on that. This can be evident by Holly asking her "Now this is everyone's home, isn't this what you wanted" you can tell from her facial expression that she knew she was wrong and she wished she had not helped Bane. This is exactly what Selina is like in the comics. She is an anti hero, conflicted between helping the good and the evil.

So the final time she met Bruce Wayne, she already knew his identity, and you can also tell from her expressions that she tried to play coy like how Catwoman does. Anne Hathaway did a great job with that. He expressions mirrors what Catwoman would be like on screen. When she found out Bruce Wayne knew she was the burglur that stole his mum's pearls at the start of the show, she changed her expression to one of a smug, unrepentant thief. That is the same expression she showed Bruce Wayne when he asked her to help. But Bruce Wayne saw the good in her. He knew she wasn't a bad person, because its due to circumstances that made her like that and she was only trying to steal from the rich and help the poor. He saw how she helped the little boy and even before that he can read her like an open book. Thats why he offered her the device to erase all of her history to start afresh because he knew she just want to do that. Selina showed she had many dimensions to her character. Even at the end when she asked Bruce to run away with her, she knew what she was doing. She was never the hero, she hated gotham, hated the rich and the corrupt and she knows Batman had always been there for the poor. She admired and adored him and wanted to leave with him, because Gotham deserves what they got. But Bruce certainly did not feel that. At the end she did came back and blasted Bane off. Clearly, Bane already lost lots of strength from the fight with Batman and also lost the will to live, knowing that the bomb would explode. But nevertheless, she whipped his ass, saved bruce and with her help, Batman saved Gotham again.

At the last scene she was wearing the pearls which Batman took from her. Which was how Alfred tracked them down after Lucius Fox found out Bruce Wayne actually fixed the auto pilot 6 months ago already.

She showed that she was skilled as a burglar, she showed she was innately a good person, but given up on the system and punished the rich and corrupt in her own way. She showed she had tons of dimensions to her character and she showed she is not to be trifled with.

Is that not enough? Anne Hathaway especially did a great job conveying that message to the audience. She did not have to say much, because she is just part of the supporting character, which included John Blake, Alfred, Bane, Lucius Fox, Gordon, Alfred, Miranda Tate, the prisoned doctor and etc. Everyone had a role to build towards the ending. Everyone did a great job. Ultimately this is a show about Batman and not everyone need to have their origins as explored as Harvey Dent. But Anne Hathaway, with her subtle smug, her body language, her expression and the little things she had to say, showed us how great she coveyed who Catwoman is. My girlfriends that watched the show with me thought she was a kick ass character and said they loved Catwoman in the movie.

SPOILER WARNING: Click here to reveal hidden content.

I don't even want to talk about Miranda Tate if you think she only slept with him.

Did you notice how much she played a part to get to the end? I bet you did not which is why you made statements like that.

Every step of the way she was integral to fulfilling her father's work for Gotham. Did you notice she had always been there whenever someone sold Detective Gordon out? There were lots of times when they tried to set up an underground attack team to foil the plans. But Miranda Tate was always there. This is the beauty of the show. I don't care how much people like Talia and wanted her to have more screen time. She was never supposed to be a bad person. The movie wanted you to know she was a good person, but left clues here and there. And only revealed who she was at the end of the movie. Without Miranda Tate's involvement, they could've defeated Bane and his army much earlier. But its because the whole time she was working undercover, which was able to show how much of a strategist she was. How much she was willing to go to fufill her father's vision. If you think "and all she manages to do for herself in the film is sleep with Bruce (which is not thoroughly motivated in film- she already had what she wanted, what was she just trying to get further in his head? Deepen his trust?" Then I think you have to watch the movie again to really understand it. Having more screen time does not equate to being well established as a character. Through her subtle actions, she already played a big part in the movie. This is a realistic movie. She knew she couldn't defeat Batman in a hand to hand combat. Also, who says that a villain's motivation needs to be justified? What was Joker's motivation? Was his motivation justified. You can tell in the movie that she is her father's daughter. To be able to plan such a big scale project to bring down gotham and being the snitch the whole step of the way, its only what a brilliant strategist could do. Ra's al ghul planned a similar attack on gotham and failed. Talia came much closer to Ra's did. So what if what did was just to fufill her father's destiny. You never know what a master assasin would do when someone kills her father.

Believe me, I caught everything you listed with such ease the first time through the movie that by the second time the film was reduced to a simple action movie... but still a fun ride, and far more watchable than your typical action movie.

In some of the other passages I go into how power can be found in the absence of information- Nolan made a point of this with the Joker with his multiple scar stories. He's a faceless force of chaos, it strengthens him and the narrative.

I think Hathaway did a great job working with what she was given, but she wasn't given enough to build more than a skeletal archetype. A big part of it was how fast she moved, for a man. That's just not the Catwoman I know. For him, unless Batman has a secret sixth sense regarding a persons concealed ethics, his trust and faith in her is way to overbearing to be justified within film. I could just make it to buying her change of heart regarding the city, for him, but their romantic relationship moved way to fast. That's just not the way that economically disadvantaged women who've learned not to trust men work. Feeling it is one thing, but that heartfelt goodbye kiss? People that guarded don't expose themselves that easily. For him it's a Hollywood blip, and a shot the middle brow audience wanted. For her it undermines a character that was already teetering on the edge of unsupported plot device.

See, plenty was stated about Catwoman, as you described, but very little was revealed. You can easily make all the connections you listed, and even most of the assumptions, as a fan in particular it should be easy. Really though, you just need to know your Hollywood narratives to fill in the blanks. She was in too much of a grey area between what the joker and Harvey were given, and that point of weakness is one of the things that limits a film with potential as lucid statement to a Summer Blockbuster.

@stambo42: but very little was revealed.

No, everything was revealed, you just need to read between the lines. That is the difference between a thought provoking show like this and say an action flick like avengers.

I feel like plenty of what you're saying stems from great love of both characters and how you idealised them to be. So as of such, I see no further point arguing because you are already dead set on what you think the character should be. I have several points for arguing about how batman trusts her and all, but like I said, if you already idealised the characters to be a certain way and fit a certain role, nothing can change your mind with that. You have to understand this is a movie and adaptations unto other media would change the characters inevitably because there are like hundreds of storyline to extract the character from.

@sethysquare said:

@stambo42: but very little was revealed.

No, everything was revealed, you just need to read between the lines. That is the difference between a thought provoking show like this and say an action flick like avengers.

I feel like plenty of what you're saying stems from great love of both characters and how you idealised them to be. So as of such, I see no further point arguing because you are already dead set on what you think the character should be. I have several points for arguing about how batman trusts her and all, but like I said, if you already idealised the characters to be a certain way and fit a certain role, nothing can change your mind with that. You have to understand this is a movie and adaptations unto other media would change the characters inevitably because there are like hundreds of storyline to extract the character from.

Actually, I read between lines for a living, and I'm a Marvellite. One might say it's the manner in which the lines have been drawn, and which in betweens you're looking at that are problematic. I've read all of two Batman stories in my life, I'm just familiar with the characters and the mythology. Given this, I'm particularly open to adaptations, so long as they justify within their own internal universes. It's not a thought provoking film, it's a blockbuster masquerading as such. I would be pained to compare this to a film like "The Good Shepard", to use something with decent exposure that existed within recent memory. Hell, I'd take "The Departed"... which at least exists in a parallel genre of sorts. When I read between the lines, the characters come off as constructs, not people making organic decisions. I was blunt and sarcastic in my opening statement, which may have been a mistake on my part, as people seem to be reading that as the superficial depth with which I read into the film. I dissected it to the point where there was nothing left to dissect the second time through. If anything, I resent that Nolan forced a bunch of sexual and romantic fulfillment on characters without making them earn it in the film, because he knew fans had these expectations. Or the Studio. Who knows who made that decision. But if you're going to make it, you have to back it up, preferably with precedents you've already set in the character, within your own universe. (To the Avengers' credit, it new it's goals, middle brow though they may be, they set out to achieve them, and succeeded spectacularly).

You're right though, I'm not going to get over the feeling that Selina was a forced character in this film, at the very least regarding the realization of her romantic interests.

@entropy_aegis: I don't think he Did, I have watched it 3 times, and i have had one month to think about it, and if Bane did not get the Letter from gordan, he would have still blew up Blackgate. nothing indicates otherwise.

@Gambler: She was a Terrorist, plan and simple, there is no room for growth, with a terrorist, everything she did was planned, she wanted to end the City, and die has a symbol.

@Gambler: SHe didn't need to be in the movie any longer, she was the Brains, she was the main bad guy, Bane is a Hired thugg. and cat woman got Alot of screen time. has much has Fox if not more.

@Gambler: Not love interest Distraction, if Bruce had time to think he Might have figured it out whats going on, He might have put 2 and 2 together. Ok where would you put her? would you fly her to South america, with bane to put batman in the hole? put her by Dagget in the Board meetings? Me, i guess I would have had showed her figuring out the off the books Bat Weapons. BUt i can't see any other moment to put her in.