Nolan's Bruce Wayne in TDKR *SPOILERS*

#1 Posted by r3d_rob1n (541 posts) - - Show Bio

I got out of the movie theater last night after watching a marathon of BB, TDK, and the TDKR at midnight. I'll start off by saying that these films are magnificent. The portrayal of Batman is very close to how I believe it could be in real life. However, I believe that Nolan has taken and distorted the character of Bruce Wayne in the eyes of the mainstream public.

One of the greatest qualities of Bruce Wayne is his unwavering commitment to justice and the preservation of life. As most readers of Batman will know, there is no true Bruce Wayne. That boy may as well have been shot in the alley with his parents. There only exists Batman in that broken psyche. This is my greatest problem with the ending of Dark Knight Rises. *IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE MOVIE RUN AWAY NOW* At the end of the movie we see Bruce sitting at the Paris cafe with Selina living what appears to be a relatively normal life. A touching tribute to a man who has given so much to Gotham, however, completely out of character for who he is. It was touched upon in Batman Begins when Rachel says that Bruce Wayne is the mask, and then solidified by her death in The Dark Knight. This represents the end of what could be a life after Batman for Bruce. The fact that Nolan had him leave his post as Batman at the end of the movie comes very close to ruining it for me. I would have accepted his death. I would have accepted him being crippled permanently. But I will not accept the fact that Nolan has destroyed Batman's persevering sense of justice and responsibility. Batman would never leave Gotham for something so trite as his own personal happiness.

The thing that wounds me most is that the movie came so close to capturing that sense of unconditional commitment. All it would have required would be a vague ending of Blake walking into the Batcave and being greeted by a silhouette of Bruce leaning on his cane. Watching over the city and waiting for evil to rear its ugly head so he could beat it back into Oblivion. This ending would also have led perfectly into a possible Batman Beyond spinoff. And how fun would it be to see a live action grumpy Bruce Wayne mentoring his hi-tech clad protege?

Let me restate that I really enjoyed this movie. I love the Nolan series and the way it shows the gritty reality of the character over the camp that was Schumacher. I just feel that Nolan abandoned a quintessential character trait of Bruce Wayne. What do all of you think? Did you enjoy the movie? How many people are hoping for a Batman Beyond movie in the future?

#2 Posted by MadRooster81 (182 posts) - - Show Bio

I loved the movie. But I don't think he ruined anything with the ending. Nolan's Batman at this point in his life, is getting old and falling apart. How much more can the he do? Bruce Wayne was destroyed and left broke. Batman to many died saving Gotham. He left the keys to the car so to speak to Blake. Why is it necessary that he still play a role? In the eight years that pass from TDK, it seems that Gotham made a huge turn around in comparison to it's state in Batman Begins. Batman was already gone and somewhat retired. It took a guy like Bane to bring in back out.

For me I find that the character's in the comics to be very different then they are portrayed on screen. Bruce said if he found someone to take over he would hang up the cowl. He thought that was person was Harvey Dent and it wasn't. But he found that guy to be Blake. In going with the three movies I find the ending to be perfect. I don't think Nolan's Batman and Batman from the comics to be the same type of guy. Mainly due to the fact that Gotham City in the comics isn't getting better. It can't or why do we need a Batman comic if he succeeds. But in a movie that Nolan wanted to have an ending, Gotham had to get better. Bruce Wayne's Batman is simply no longer needed.

#3 Posted by r3d_rob1n (541 posts) - - Show Bio

@cjbostick81: Bruce was looking for a legitimate source to hand the city over too. He thought he found that in Dent, but proved that he could be corrupted. Also, Blake is going to be no help at all to the city when he has no training. Batman is all about self sacrifice, and this movie showed that the threats to Gotham will never truly be over. To not properly train, or stand guard, over the city seems reckless and out of character for Batman, both in the comics and the Nolan films

#4 Posted by Rumble Man (11119 posts) - - Show Bio

Too much inconsistencies, Bane held the movie by himself along with the supporting cast. This was a movie where the batman is more about the fate of gotham than the 'batman' character itself.

#5 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman would retire when Gotham no longer needed him. That's a theme even in the comics. He does what he does so that Batman need not exist.  
 
At the end of Rises, Gotham was saved and purified. He didn't quit to please himself, Batman died saving Gotham, and because of that, Gotham was able to save itself.

#6 Edited by Suprman (442 posts) - - Show Bio

I do see the points you are making and like you I enjoyed the movie. I think by the end of Rises, Bruce realized that there was nothing left he could do as Batman. If his fight with Bane proved anything it was that he could be broken and could easily die on the job, in the movie we saw him using some sort of device, for lack of a better word atm, to fix his own leg. What if he had died without ensuring Gotham's future to the right hands. His body was falling apart and the Human body in general can only take so much abuse. Plus, if he continued on as batman, how long would it be before someone takes notice of Bruce Wayne with a prosthetic leg or something with no real explanation for it?

In my opinion, he did NOT give up the fight for justice or against the criminal element, he merely passed the torch to someone who would continue the fight when he could not. However I do agree with your point on him just leaving Blake with nothing but the cave's resources. That did seem out of character to me. If Batman were to ever pass the torch to another crusader, he would make sure his successor was ready in all possible ways. It really would've been better to see Blake arriving in the cave at the end, only to see Bruce standing there in training gear, quoting Ra's "Are you ready to begin?"

While I do Love Batman Beyond, I would much rather see a Nightwing Spin-off, I like to think that's what Nolan was trying to do with Blake.

#7 Posted by YMCMB (160 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the fact that Bruce retires is more in line with the realistic theme of the trilogy. In reality, nobody would physically or mentally be able to devote their life to fighting crime every night like he does in the comics. Bruce's main goal is to rid Gotham of the kind of evil that killed his parents. After defeating Two-Face, The Joker, and the mafia in TDK Gotham was at the point where it was a much safer place, and Batman wasn't really needed, until Bane. After defeating Bane and Talia, Gotham was at the point where it could survive without Batman again, and Bruce could retire.

#8 Posted by MadRooster81 (182 posts) - - Show Bio

@r3d_rob1n: @Suprman: Becoming Batman doesn't happen over night. But that doesn't mean Blake couldn't do it. He has the motives and now the means to become Batman, how he gets to that and how long it takes isn't something you can throw at the end of a movie. Got to look at the big picture. I don't think Blake was going to throw on the cowl that day and try to be Batman, but everything is in place for him to do so.

#9 Posted by Suprman (442 posts) - - Show Bio

@cjbostick81: I agree that becoming Batman doesn't happen overnight and I'm not saying Blake couldn't do it, or that he would do it right away, but he can't do it alone. Even In this series, Bruce had people helping him and I wish that factor was there at the end of the movie with Blake coming into the cave. Don't get me wrong I still loved that ending, mostly because Blake was such an awesome character. And who knows, Maybe those types of resources are included with the cave's computer, contact lists, maps of the city, stuff like that. Maybe there will be a deleted scene or something with him checking the cave's computer, I hope there is.

#10 Posted by r3d_rob1n (541 posts) - - Show Bio

@Suprman: I agree. It seems like a deleted scene expounding on Blake's time in the cave would do a lot for the movie's ending.

@YMCMB: do you really think that Gotham was in a better state at the end of Rises compared to Dark Knight? It seems like the city was in a similar state, if not worse, than the end in TDK. All they did was substitute Harvey being the hero in TDK for Batman as the hero in Rises. The city had just gone through a huge catastrophe, I'm sure there would be rampant looting and crime in the time following Bane's military state. Batman would definitely be needed in such an environment.

@Suprman said:

It really would've been better to see Blake arriving in the cave at the end, only to see Bruce standing there in training gear, quoting Ra's "Are you ready to begin?"

Yes

#11 Posted by War Killer (20111 posts) - - Show Bio

I do agree in one way as when I was driving home from the movies with my dad, I leaned over to him and mentioned how I really doubt Bruce is just going to sit around in Paris the rest of his life and not be tempted to go back to Gotham.
 
But in another way, I felt that the movie ended and justified Bruce stepping down and living the rest of his life knowing that Gotham is in good hands. One of the main points of the movie was the whole thing about how Batman is a symbol, not just one man, that the idea that ANYONE could be Batman is true. That was the point and with how the movie ended, I felt it held true to that belief.
 
Overall, you never really see a Batman story ending happily ever after, but I left the theater with a smile because that's exactly what happened. All of the good guys live on, Gotham is in safe hands, and the legacy of Batman continues. It was the perfect ending for an epic story.

#12 Posted by MadRooster81 (182 posts) - - Show Bio

I read that Nolan wanted to tell his story of Batman from Batman's beginning to his end. This was his story. Where as a comic has to come out every month maybe more and you have to keep the character alive. So the comic character is more driven and motivated, how else do you keep Batman fighting so long?

I always find it interesting how everyone gets upset when a movie changes a story or adds a spin to the character. I mean you got the comics to read and enjoy that character. In movies you need an end because you just don't know if there will be another movie or if an acter will continue as that character. Things of that nature. I like to think of it as reading a stand alone graphic novel or an alternate version. Like Batman: Earth One, completely different take on the Batman character.

#13 Posted by MadRooster81 (182 posts) - - Show Bio

@War Killer: Agreed. The ending fit with the other two movie's story.

#14 Edited by War Killer (20111 posts) - - Show Bio
@cjbostick81 said:

@War Killer: Agreed. The ending fit with the other two movie's story.

It really does.
 
From comments I've been reading about how the ending was, I think people are expecting this movie to be like the comics where Batman's war on crime is seemingly never-ending, but that's not the case here. This whole trilogy was about symbolism, to show that even when surrounded by corruption one person can can rise up and make a difference.
 
I get the feeling that people are seeing the Batman that they read in the comics and trying to see him in this movie, and while there are parts of that Batman there, unlike in the comics, this Batman's story has and ending. This movie was about one man standing up against evil, to prove that one a good man can make a difference in a world consumed by evil; a story about that man rising up against such evil and becoming a symbol that anyone could be.
 
This was a story that had a beginning and had an end, and I'm am grateful to say that this story ending perfectly.
#15 Posted by MadRooster81 (182 posts) - - Show Bio

@War Killer: Absolutely. I do not understand why everyone hates it. It's not the same Batman from the comics. It's Nolan's take on the character and each movie had a strong flowing story. It had to end and I love how Nolan choose to do it.

#16 Posted by War Killer (20111 posts) - - Show Bio
@cjbostick81 said:

@War Killer: Absolutely. I do not understand why everyone hates it. It's not the same Batman from the comics. It's Nolan's take on the character and each movie had a strong flowing story. It had to end and I love how Nolan choose to do it.

To be honest, it's really just a live action elseworld story. It's it's own story that takes what we know about Batman and gives us something new. I mean, aside from a few nods to different storylines, all three of the movies are their own story and this is simply another interpretation of Batman.
#17 Posted by MadRooster81 (182 posts) - - Show Bio

@War Killer: Agreed. It's like a stand alone graphic novel.

As stated in another forum, I personally think Batman died. Nolan is famous for making his endings subjective and open to interruption. Leaved the viewers wondering and questioning the ending. Who is to say he didn't die and that Alfred wasn't just imaging him in the cafe? His way of thinking he is in a better place...peace of mind kind of thing.

#18 Posted by War Killer (20111 posts) - - Show Bio
@cjbostick81 said:

@War Killer: Agreed. It's like a stand alone graphic novel.

As stated in another forum, I personally think Batman died. Nolan is famous for making his endings subjective and open to interruption. Leaved the viewers wondering and questioning the ending. Who is to say he didn't die and that Alfred wasn't just imaging him in the cafe? His way of thinking he is in a better place...peace of mind kind of thing.

My only argument with that is the fact that Selina Kyle was with Bruce, so if that was all in Alfred's head, I don't see him picturing Bruce with her of all people. Why not with some random woman? I really believe that Bruce survived, and knowing that Gotham was in good hands, finally found the peace that Alfred had always wanted for him.
 
I'm big on happy endings, I mean I'm one of those people who tells themselves that Inception ended happily, so whether people want to argue it or not, I like that for once we actually see Bruce Wayne have a happy ending. :P
#19 Posted by MadRooster81 (182 posts) - - Show Bio

@War Killer: And I think that is the entire point of the ending. Nolan's ending are subjective, so you can get the ending you want out of it. Like Inception. Was it a dream or was it real? You choose the ending. This is why i really liked TDKR.

#20 Posted by r3d_rob1n (541 posts) - - Show Bio

@cjbostick81: That is a possible way to look at it. I also like the thought put out about it being a live action elseworld story. I've never really viewed the movies in that way before. The only thing that would make me think that the vision of Bruce was not in Alfred's head is that Fox discovered that Bruce had repaired the autopilot

#21 Posted by MadRooster81 (182 posts) - - Show Bio

@r3d_rob1n: True, but that doesn't mean he used it. They also stated that the software sucked even though Bruce upgraded it. This is very much a stand alone story. Non of the other Batman Films were connected and I doubt the next reboot will have any connections to it.

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