So Taskmaster's previous memories are now non-canon?

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#51 Posted by Erik (33327 posts) - - Show Bio
@DragynWulf said:
The latest Handbook entry does not have anything on the 2010 limited series just published. It has it from the UDON limited series. I should know, I wrote it along with the information in the back of TASKMASTER #1 (2010). http://www.comicvine.com/david-wiltfong/26-46089/"
What?
#52 Edited by DragynWulf (30 posts) - - Show Bio
@Buckshot said:

"Solution: There are two Taskmasters. One that had his powers from childhood (we'll call him UTM) and remembers, and another who got them from a serum and doesn't remember anything but his moves (we'll call him TM). TM is unaware of UTM because he can't remember what he's done and what he hasn't. UTM is a not only a master martial artist, but also a brilliant man and has been taking great care to ensure that the world believes there is only one Taskmaster. He knows the truth and allows this other Taskmaster to run around and do things for his own sinister purposes. Every now and then he'll confront him (dressed as another hero or villain of course) and fight him to gain any new skills he's learned, but otherwise has no contact with him. After his failed shot at making the big time during Seige, UTM is hanging back and letting TM make appearances while he plans his next move."

 
Taskmaster trained someone to be Captain America. It wouldn't be hard for him to train someone to act like himself that could learn how to copy other's moves to a limited degree that would take his place on various missions. He could even mess with their brain to make them think they are the real deal. Taskmaster has always had his own group of scientists working for him, they are the ones that create his weapons, gave him powers in and made his robot Avengers from HAWKEYE: EARTH'S MIGHTEST MARKSMAN, developed his web-shooters and the fluid, designed his quinjet type vehicle,and so on, so they could develop the equipment easily. It would fix the various errors over the years with the character.
#53 Posted by Dane (10649 posts) - - Show Bio
@DragynWulf said:
"
@Buckshot said:

"Solution: There are two Taskmasters. One that had his powers from childhood (we'll call him UTM) and remembers, and another who got them from a serum and doesn't remember anything but his moves (we'll call him TM). TM is unaware of UTM because he can't remember what he's done and what he hasn't. UTM is a not only a master martial artist, but also a brilliant man and has been taking great care to ensure that the world believes there is only one Taskmaster. He knows the truth and allows this other Taskmaster to run around and do things for his own sinister purposes. Every now and then he'll confront him (dressed as another hero or villain of course) and fight him to gain any new skills he's learned, but otherwise has no contact with him. After his failed shot at making the big time during Seige, UTM is hanging back and letting TM make appearances while he plans his next move."

 Taskmaster trained someone to be Captain America. It wouldn't be hard for him to train someone to act like himself that could learn how to copy other's moves to a limited degree that would take his place on various missions. He could even mess with their brain to make them think they are the real deal. Taskmaster has always had his own group of scientists working for him, they are the ones that create his weapons, gave him powers in and made his robot Avengers from HAWKEYE: EARTH'S MIGHTEST MARKSMAN, developed his web-shooters and the fluid, designed his quinjet type vehicle,and so on, so they could develop the equipment easily. It would fix the various errors over the years with the character. "
Are you trolling or literally that stupid? I'm cool with either.
#54 Posted by k4tzm4n (34954 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane:
LOL
Staff
#55 Posted by DragynWulf (30 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane said:
Are you trolling or literally that stupid? I'm cool with either. "

The only one that seems to be trolling is you and a few others. 

Simple logic is that if Taskmaster can train not one, but two people to fight like Captain America (John Walker and Death Shield), someone to act like Spider-Man (Blood Spider), and someone to act like Hawkeye (Jagged Bow)... he can train someone to act like himself.
#56 Posted by k4tzm4n (34954 posts) - - Show Bio
@DragynWulf:
I like how you only now stand by that theory after someone else mentioned it, but you were previously up in arms saying how his latest run isn't canon material.  Nice.
Staff
#57 Edited by Dane (10649 posts) - - Show Bio
@DragynWulf said:

"

@Dane said:

Are you trolling or literally that stupid? I'm cool with either. "

The only one that seems to be trolling is you and a few others. Simple logic is that if Taskmaster can train not one, but two people to fight like Captain America (John Walker and Death Shield), someone to act like Spider-Man (Blood Spider), and someone to act like Hawkeye (Jagged Bow)... he can train someone to act like himself. "
 Earlier you said:

It wouldn't be hard for him to train someone to act like himself that could learn how to copy other's moves to a limited degree that would take his place on various missions.

 
What you're saying is that he can train someone to have his powers. Can Cyclops train someone to shoot lasers out of their head too?
 

He could even mess with their brain to make them think they are the real deal. 

  
Yes, with his hitherto unsuspected mind control abilities. It makes perfect sense.
#58 Posted by brc2000 (1676 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane said:
" @DragynWulf said:
"The Handbooks have been using those terms since the 90's, long before the internet was around and much longer than this website was even thought of being created."
The internet wasn't around in the 90s? seriously? "
To be fair, it wasn't really as widespread in it's usage until the second half of the nineties.
#59 Edited by DragynWulf (30 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dane said:
"hat you're saying is that he can train someone to have his powers. Can Cyclops train someone to shoot lasers out of their head too?" 

 
So what you are saying is that you have powers? That when someone taught you how to play baseball, baseketball, soccer, climbing the jungle gym, swim, throw ball, or any other physical feat that you had to first watch to learn... you use your powers to accomplish this? The characters that has already trained to act like Captain America, Spider-Man, and Hawkeye do not have powers (USAgent being the exception, but his is only strength, which has nothing to do with being Captain America). He could easily train someone to fight with the fighting skills of numerous characters and have them claim to have learned them instead of actually having photographic reflexes.
 
@Dane said:
"Yes, with his hitherto unsuspected mind control abilities. It makes perfect sense." 
  
Don't really read what is said much I guess. Notice how I pointed out that Taskmaster has scientists that have created things for him in the past. His robot Avengers, his brief powers to duplicate any power he watches, his weapons, a clone, and various other things. Not hard to use logic and figure out that in order for this to be done, he would use a scientist and not a power himself. 

@k4tzm4n said:

"@DragynWulf: I like how you only now stand by that theory after someone else mentioned it, but you were previously up in arms saying how his latest run isn't canon material.  Nice. "


Notice what I stated prior to his comment about Rhino in BLACK PANTHER and how a new character had to be created to fix what a writer wanted to be within continuity, but could not because you can't just give characters a new origin. It isn't a concept that is new with comic characters, so it isn't like he had the first idea of it taking place. It has beendone with characters like Dr. Doom, Spymaster, Spider-Man, Daredevil, and many others. It isn't something that I have to "stand by". And I am not "up in arms" about something. The only one complaining about knowing that it "has" to be within continuity, is you when you don't really know about continuity.
#60 Posted by SladeRogers (273 posts) - - Show Bio
I thought that the problem with Taskmaster's memory was that his photogenic reflexes had overwritten his natural memories or something? Like after his reflexes has copied what he's witnessed, his brain also has to store the same moves and it forces out his previous memories.
#61 Edited by k4tzm4n (34954 posts) - - Show Bio
@DragynWulf: 

Notice what I stated prior to his comment about Rhino in BLACK PANTHER and how a new character had to be created to fix what a writer wanted to be within continuity, but could not because you can't just give characters a new origin.  

You mentioned it as a different situation, and never stated how the scenario could be applied to the current.  You only jumped on that bandwagon when Buckshot elaborated on the idea, and you went "Gee jolly, we can apply that here!" 
  
 

It isn't something that I have to "stand by". And I am not "up in arms" about something. The only one complaining about knowing that it "has" to be within continuity, is you when you don't really know about continuity.     

  

My favorite part about you is probably your condescending nature.  You acted all high and mighty as a dictactor-like mod at the Marvel forums, and you continue to sport that bright and friendly nature.  Just so you know, working for Marvel doesn't make you superior to any fan.  If you want to boast every now and then, it's understandable, but being an employee doesn't mean you're the know-all of everything comic related.  Everyone here has read the issues with Taskmaster, and clearly it appears you haven't even read the latest Avengers Academy, which Gambler was kind enough to provide a scan for.  I don't understanding continuity? You're a joke.  Taskmaster himself discussed the memory problem, and it will be treated as canon IF AND UNTIL a writer later on reveals otherwise (such as the detailed theory Buckshot proposed).   
 
If it makes you feel better you can reply, but just know I have no intention of reading any more of your posts. 
 
Staff
#62 Posted by Zoom (14668 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol but he writes handbooks!  You gotta like listen to him and stuff.
#63 Posted by Dane (10649 posts) - - Show Bio
@brc2000 said:
" @Dane said:
" @DragynWulf said:
"The Handbooks have been using those terms since the 90's, long before the internet was around and much longer than this website was even thought of being created."
The internet wasn't around in the 90s? seriously? "
To be fair, it wasn't really as widespread in it's usage until the second half of the nineties. "
To be fair, only a moron would think the internet was invented in the 90s.
#64 Posted by The Cramoisi Fleur (159 posts) - - Show Bio

 Although I dont agree with Dragyn Wulf's point of view or his seemingly fabricated statements, doesnt mean we should declare open season on him and just have at it. At some point you just have to ignore him and walk away. Several good points have been made and if he still refuses to see em then there's nothing more you can do. No need to dog pile him with name calling and sarcastic comments.
 
And Dragyn Wulf, I dont know if you really write for handbooks or not. I would hope you would be honest about something like that and not just say whatever you think will lend more credibility to your posts. I think there is plenty of evidence to support the opposing side on this issue yet you seemingly dismiss them all. If you aren't willing to take other users point of view into consideration then how can you expect them to take yours into consideration?
 
Lets try to keep the hostility and name calling to a minimum if nothing else.

#65 Posted by brc2000 (1676 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dane said:
" @brc2000 said:
" @Dane said:
" @DragynWulf said:
"The Handbooks have been using those terms since the 90's, long before the internet was around and much longer than this website was even thought of being created."
The internet wasn't around in the 90s? seriously? "
To be fair, it wasn't really as widespread in it's usage until the second half of the nineties. "
To be fair, only a moron would think the internet was invented in the 90s. "
Well, I don't think he meant it that way, and probably just worded it badly, though I don't know him so who knows? Not defending him or anything, just sayin'.
#66 Posted by Zoom (14668 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Cramoisi Fleur said:
" Although I dont agree with Dragyn Wulf's point of view or his seemingly fabricated statements, doesnt mean we should declare open season on him and just have at it. At some point you just have to ignore him and walk away. Several good points have been made and if he still refuses to see em then there's nothing more you can do. No need to dog pile him with name calling and sarcastic comments.  And Dragyn Wulf, I dont know if you really write for handbooks or not. I would hope you would be honest about something like that and not just say whatever you think will lend more credibility to your posts. I think there is plenty of evidence to support the opposing side on this issue yet you seemingly dismiss them all. If you aren't willing to take other users point of view into consideration then how can you expect them to take yours into consideration?  Lets try to keep the hostility and name calling to a minimum if nothing else. "

What do you think you're doing?  Trying to be mature on the internet?  What is this?
#67 Edited by DragynWulf (30 posts) - - Show Bio

 @k4tzm4n said:

"@DragynWulf: 

Notice what I stated prior to his comment about Rhino in BLACK PANTHER and how a new character had to be created to fix what a writer wanted to be within continuity, but could not because you can't just give characters a new origin.   

You mentioned it as a different situation, and never stated how the scenario could be applied to the current.  You only jumped on that bandwagon when Buckshot elaborated on the idea, and you went "Gee jolly, we can apply that here!" 

 
  
 

I mentioned exactly how it could be applied to this situation. You can't give a character a new origin out of the blue without explaining it. I didn't jump on any bandwagon. As a fan of Taskmaster I've always thought that him training others to take his place could be used to explain things ever since I read it in the Handbook Deluxe Edition where it stated the following: "However, while it was playing a small town in Ohio, the Thing assisted a government agent in foiling Taskmaster's activities. The agent took Taskmaster into custody, but there is reason to believe that it was one of the Taskmaster's men wearing his costume they captured, not the real Taskmaster." This was published in 1986, so I think it predates Buckshot's comments by a few years. Just because I agree with his comment or that he happened to post it in this thread frist, doesn't mean I am jumping on any bandwagon. 


 @k4tzm4n said:
"My favorite part about you is probably your condescending nature.  You acted all high and mighty as a dictactor-like mod at the Marvel forums, and you continue to sport that bright and friendly nature.  Just so you know, working for Marvel doesn't make you superior to any fan.  If you want to boast every now and then, it's understandable, but being an employee doesn't mean you're the know-all of everything comic related.  Everyone here has read the issues with Taskmaster, and clearly it appears you haven't even read the latest Avengers Academy, which Gambler was kind enough to provide a scan for.  I don't understanding continuity? You're a joke.  Taskmaster himself discussed the memory problem, and it will be treated as canon IF AND UNTIL a writer later on reveals otherwise (such as the detailed theory Buckshot proposed).    If it makes you feel better you can reply, but just know I have no intention of reading any more of your posts. "
 
 
 
You claim I am being condesending, yet that is all you've done trying to make me look bad just to look good in front of others here. When you claim that interviews count as incontinuity, I gave examples of how and why it was not. When you claimed that something was within continuity, I pointed out how and why it was not. All you did was claim that it was without really knowing anything about how continuity works. The comment wasn't insulting or anything, but a quick a statement to your reply. You might think that you know about continuity, but obviously do not and that is not anything insulting or condensending what so ever. You know the basics, but not the entire subject, which is common with comic fans. I didn't understand it all until I started working on the Handbooks. Instead of being defensive, like you are, I took the time to learn and understand how it works without assuming I already knew the answers. I did the samething with alternate realities, altered realities, divergent realities, things dealing with that subject. All without having the mentality that I already knew how it worked. When I didn't understand something, I didn't claim "You don't know nothing. You're a joke" or whatever else. I asked questions and eventually learned. Continuity isn't as simple as reading one comic that was released in Jan and then another comic that is released in Feb. It is much more complex than just that.
 
As for the issue of AVENGERS ACADEMY #9... I have it and read it (I own the entire series as a matter of fact). If something has Taskmaster in it or on it... I own it. I will be buying Marvel Capcom 3 video game this month because he is in it. I will be buying the Disney Marvel Hero Squad two pack with Deadpool, the Marvel Legends two pack with Deadpool action figure, and I "hope" to buy the new Taskmaster statue by Bowen Designs when it is released (but that depends on the cost of course since statues are more expensive). I have a copy of the poster were the cover to the first series of Handbooks were put together to be a poster because Taskmaster is on it. 
 
As far as continuity with that issue. Yes, he mentioned having memory problems, but nothing about taking a serum to gain his photographic reflexes in AVENGERS ACADEMY #9. Spider-Woman has referanced the SPIDER-WOMAN: ORIGIN limited series as well, but that limited series is not-in-continuity as well. All this means is Taskmaster made a comment that was used in another comic, but that comment doesn't make the issue part of continuity just like Spider-Woman's comments don't make her limited series part of continuity. 
 
 
 

 @Dane said:

 

"To be fair, only a moron would think the internet was invented in the 90s. "

   
 
You do realize that the internet that the public uses wasn't created until the 90's right? The comment was about how the Handbooks used those terms long before this website was even thought to be created. But instead of talking about Taskmaster, which was 90% of the post, you decided to claim I was a moron and then later "troll" all because you couldn't comment on the subject of Taskmaster. 

 


 
 @The Cramoisi Fleur said:

" And Dragyn Wulf, I dont know if you really write for handbooks or not. I would hope you would be honest about something like that and not just say whatever you think will lend more credibility to your posts. I think there is plenty of evidence to support the opposing side on this issue yet you seemingly dismiss them all. If you aren't willing to take other users point of view into consideration then how can you expect them to take yours into consideration?" 

 
 
I do indeed write for the Handbooks, hence my link to the profile here on me. If continuity was as simple as reading one issue to the next, then yes, there is plenty to support everything stated by others. However, continuity is not as simple as that because continuity involves the continued use of something, hence the word "continuity".   
 
And I didn't dismiss anything. I explained ever reason why it doesn't work, therefore by doing so, I took it into consideration, but if it is incorrect, then it is incorrect. You can't tell an automecanic that a car used oil as its fuel source instead of gasoline and expect it to be correct just because you don't undertand how a car work.  
 
And lets look at the "taking other's point of view into consideration"...  
- It was called a retcon, which I explained why it couldn't be.  
- It was then pointed to an interview, which I pointed out that interviews and letter pages are not continuity.  
- Then I was asked why am I sitting here lying, like I should take that into consideration at all.  
- Then there was the mention about how it was referanced in AVENGERS ACADEMY #9 and stating that just because it was referanced it makes it part of continuity, which I've already explained prior to that using Spider-Woman, that it does not make it automatically part of continuity. 
- Then mentioned that it could be another Taskmaster, which I already pointed out about how a new Rhino in BLACK PANTHER had to be created instead of what the writer intended (retelling Rhino's origin). Which I agreed with and used examples of how it could explain a lot of things with Taskmaster. 
- Then the internet comment followed by claims of me being a troll. 
- Then sarcastic comments about how Cyclops could train others to use his powers in responce to my comment that Taskmaster could train someone to be like him, when it was previously shown that he could do it for Captain America, Spider-Man, and Hawkeye. 
- Then the same sarcastic comments continued. 
- Then sarcarstic comments about me writing for the Handbooks. 
 
So... as you can see, I took every actual comment into consideration.  There were really only 3-4 comments worth considering as actual comments. One poster who started out with legit comments worth considering, just decided to turn it into an attack all because I explained why his comments wouldn't work. 

 
 
 
#68 Posted by DFChewie (150 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:
"
Here it is: 
http://marvel.com/news/story/15056/psych_ward_taskmaster     "
Just to be fair, this psych entry does retcon (or ignore?) parts of the new mini-series in order to better integrate it into Taskmaster's continuity. It maintains that he has had his powers from childhood, and only mentions his past as a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent as "new information". Personally, I prefer this interpretation. (Don't jump down my throat; I know what I prefer has no say in what is or isn't continuity.)
#69 Posted by The Cramoisi Fleur (159 posts) - - Show Bio

 @DragynWulf said:

" If continuity was as simple as reading one issue to the next, then yes, there is plenty to support everything stated by others. However, continuity is not as simple as that because continuity involves the continued use of something, hence the word "continuity".     "

 
 

@DragynWulf

said:

" Sorry, but the only thing that counts as within continuity are the comics themselves.. "

 Maybe I'm not getting something but it really seems like you've contradicted yourself here? If the fact that recent events within Taskmaster's most recent mini series continuing over in a separate series aren't enough to make it canon/continuity, then what would?
#70 Posted by DragynWulf (30 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Cramoisi Fleur said:
@DragynWulf said:

" If continuity was as simple as reading one issue to the next, then yes, there is plenty to support everything stated by others. However, continuity is not as simple as that because continuity involves the continued use of something, hence the word "continuity".     "

 
 

@DragynWulf

said:

" Sorry, but the only thing that counts as within continuity are the comics themselves.. "

 Maybe I'm not getting something but it really seems like you've contradicted yourself here? If the fact that recent events within Taskmaster's most recent mini series continuing over in a separate series aren't enough to make it canon/continuity, then what would? "

Just because a comic was printed, doesn't make it part of the Earth-616 continuity. For example, Punisher's PUNISHER MAX series is not within continuity, but certain things from that series has been mentioned in the regular PUNISHER series. Just because it is mentioned, doesn't make the entire series part of continuity. This is the same case with SPIDER-WOMAN: ORIGIN limited series and recent TASKMASTER series. 
 
Taskmaster mentioning that he has a memory problem in AVENGERS ACADEMY doesn't automatically make the TASKMASTER limited series part of continuity. Especially since Taskmaster originally had problems with his memory back when he debuted. He had to constantly review various fighting styles over and over to retain the information, which is why he kept video footage of super heroes and super villains. Years later, it was switched to Taskmaster suddenly having photographic memory. So him saying that he forgets things works just fine with continuity, while ignoring the recent limited series, because he already had a memory problem. Instead of his memory problem being with his fighting styles, it is now with his regular memories. Him watching the same footage over and over could have caused this reaction with his photographic reflexes. 
 
However, claiming that interviews count as part of continuity, is incorrect because what counts is what is printed in the comics.  
 
And then even when something is printed in comics... it still doesn't make it part of continuity. Just look at the whole Brooklyn Bridge/George Washington Bridge debate caused because both bridges have been shown to be the bridge that Gwen Stacy fell off of. Not to mention the fact that in reprints, Marvel use to change things, like Gwen's neck snaping sound effect (it was removed in the MARVEL TALES reprint), various characters previously named "Hulk" had their name changed in reprints so that Bruce Banner was the only character known as the "Hulk," and many other examples.
#71 Edited by Feliciano2040 (654 posts) - - Show Bio
@mavfan626 said:

I really don't think that it's canon..

Although the whole mini-series is a big retcon, It's really not that hard to justify when looking back at the UDON version.
 
Memories are muddled by many factors, our forgetfulness of the details and the amount of times we try to remember a specific event can very well alter the memory of the aforementioned event.
 
In Taskmaster's case it's the same, only that he has difficulty with his damaged hyppocampus (sp), therefore he has extreme difficulty when trying to recollect episodic memory (personal intimate memory).
 
Think of it like this, in the UDON miniseries he remembered falling into the pool and not knowing how to swim, what if that wasn't true ? What if he saw that in a TV show and remembers it as his own experience ? Take notice that in the Van Lente mini he remembers a woman taking care of him, but he doesn't remember if this is his mother or his nanny.
 
At the time of the UDON miniseries one can also say his mind hadn't been overloaded yet, and therefore he hadn't realized he had a handicap.
 
I know I'm pulling it off the edge a little, but for such a wild retcon I think Van Lente covered his bases pretty well !
#72 Edited by themimegogo (52 posts) - - Show Bio

Was introduced to Taskmaster in 2002 by Udon. been a fan since. Started collecting comic books (with him in it) just very recently.

The 2010 TPB Unthinkable is an important part of my small collection, but having it in there is like having a lobo among a pack of wolves, where the alpha dog is the 4 issue Udon series.

When I first read about Tasky, it felt like he was being groomed to be Marvel's Deathstroke - somewhat. But it wasn't until the post Udon issues, when I noticed the Bronx Accent and gained an appreciation for the classic costume.

Although I'm one of those who hold the Udon rendition dear, I just have to bitterly accept Van Lente's 'interpretation' the same way I accept that Travis Love will be playing him in the upcoming SHEILD TV Show.

Origin change aside, it's kinda tough to swallow the whole mental condition, I've seen Memento, it makes a very clear portrayal of how hard it would be to function if you have trouble remembering your own name. How on earth could Taskmaster run a logistical nightmare like a henchman school in the guise of a Circus if he needed to get beaten up by Mockingbird just to remember that he was a sleeper agent for the Secret Avengers?

I think most of us, despite our differing opinions would agree that Marvel needs to clean up this mess, which I'm hoping to see in future appearances.

On the bright side, this whole situation could make for a great writing opportunity. There's plenty of good material that could come out from this like - What would happen if Sandi and Mercedes met up? (For that matter what was Mercedes doing when Tasky was with Agency X), IS Finesse really his kid? Why on Earth was Constrictor trying to kill him in Secret Avengers, when the last time they were together was in Japan as Associates during the end of Siege...

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