An insightful blog on how writer's treat Talia

#1 Edited by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio

I may have found my significant other during some procrastination the other night. I've always felt that, despite his amazing talents, Grant Morrison treats Talia like absolute bollocks. He wrote my favourite Batman arc, the Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul, where Talia is so inspiring and protective, and then he does a complete 180 with Batman & Son and THEN the [SPOILER ALERT] recently revealed Batman INC Leviathan storyline. I'm just getting sick and tired of his inability to write Talia as the character she was invented to be. I mean, even Winick was more respectful with Talia during the Lost Days (except #6's 'love' scene). 
 
But enough of my ramblings, here's someone else's:  
 
Original source - http://lipsofpoison.tumblr.com/post/1506783307/how-talia-al-ghul-is-written-at-dc
 

dcwomenkickingass:


This is so true. Talia has been royally jerked around lately, which is sad because as soon as I feel Morrison has progress with Damian’s characterisation, he sacrifices Talia’s characterisation just to add another level of angst to Damian. She’s already only shown interest in a detatched (but caring) way, she’s left other people to raise him, others to train him, almost handed him over to be bodyswapped, almost got him killed and more or less left him to do what she thinks he should - isn’t that enough for a ten year old, when you add in that he’s Batman’s son and all the crap that comes with being a Wayne?  I just think the whole thing was a bit unnecessary. If they wanted to reveal a clone, it could have been done so much better. If they wanted to drive a wedge between them, again, it could have been done with care for her character. I like Damian, but I hate the fact Talia’s character integrity has been more or less thrown to the wind for her son.

I mean, we had someone who cared about her kid enough to walk away from everything, only to abandon him when he wasn’t taking over? I’d think time wouldn’t bother the Al Ghul’s, considering the Pits. I’ll admit to being bias - my first experiences of Talia have been of a girl who’s loyalties were split between her feelings for Batman and her feelings for her father. Then her surrogate mother style relationship with Jason showcased her conflicting feelings all the way through Lost Days, which presumably she was still messed up from the Nyssa ordeal anyway.

Then we have the tables turned completely and she seems to turn into an evil head bitch in charge with almost no warning and barely any explanation? That doesn’t sound like someone conflicted between honour, duty and love to me. It sounds like a scapegoat, someone to be used as a plot point with no desire to give a damn about her reasoning or her character integrity, let alone her past.

As usual with comics, it’s not the route they’ve taken that bothers so much as the way they’ve done it. Talia could easily be any of these things, but she needs her reasons, her motivations and I don’t think it’s too much to ask that they don’t completely contradict everything we already knew about her as a character.

Once again, I feel that Morrison is an excellent writer but more and more, he seems to be just writing his own universe and to hell with anything anyone else has ever established, which isn’t really helpful when it comes to a multiple writers doing comics.


#2 Posted by Saren (25211 posts) - - Show Bio
Alfred thinks Talia sucks too.
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#3 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio
@CitizenBane: I thought you might like that dartboard image. There appears to be a quite a high probability of her being written as a 'crazy bitch'.
#4 Posted by entropy_aegis (14114 posts) - - Show Bio

Blame Dan Didiot,not Morrison.Talia became evil in Death and the Maidens,a story written by Greg Rucka which was intended to tie inn to Infinite Crisis.But Rucka got one thing wrong,he created Nyssa to become Ra's heir,Morrison rectified that.

And honestly I'll take Morrisons evil madam over Winick's confused little girl,I mean atleast she's not sleeping with average joe number 2 in Morrison stuff.

#5 Edited by entropy_aegis (14114 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh and Talia has almost always treated everyone not Bruce Wayne like CRAP,be it Bane,Superman,Dick Grayson,Tim Drake or even Lex Luthor.So apart from interactions with Batman and classic O'Neal stories she has almost always been a douche.

That is why I was surprised by her affection towards Jason,a person she HAD NEVER EVEN MET prior to his death,and yet she treats the rest of the Robins like they're trash.

Morrison is'nt alone.

#6 Edited by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio
@entropy_aegis: I liked the way she treated Jason in the first issue of the Lost Days, as it sort of represented a surrogate mother in a sense, as that blog says. If you remember, she resurrected Jason purely to win back Bruce's heart. Winick was really onto something with her blind love for Bruce, but then she kissed Jason and it went all downhill from there. 
 
From what I've read of the New 52's Red Hood and the Outlaws, it seems like they removed that 'romance' between Jason and Talia, but still kept the fact that she resurrected him and taught him to face his fears.
#7 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio
@entropy_aegis: I'm iffy about Death and the Maidens in general. I never was a fan of the whole 'long lost family member' cop-out. Not to mention the way Nyssa treated Talia was just horrible. But at least it allowed Morrison to write Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul, which is, in my opinion, one of his best works with Batman.
#8 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect: I wholeheartedly agree.

#9 Posted by entropy_aegis (14114 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect said:

@entropy_aegis: I liked the way she treated Jason in the first issue of the Lost Days, as it sort of represented a surrogate mother in a sense, as that blog says. If you remember, she resurrected Jason purely to win back Bruce's heart. Winick was really onto something with her blind love for Bruce, but then she kissed Jason and it went all downhill from there. From what I've read of the New 52's Red Hood and the Outlaws, it seems like they removed that 'romance' between Jason and Talia, but still kept the fact that she resurrected him and taught him to face his fears.

I just don't buy her being a surrogate mother to Jason,she had never met Jason prior to his death and vice versa.The most Jason would have known about her would have been through some files in the Batcomputer and knowing Bruce he would have classified her as a dangerous terrorist instead of a love interest.

She never gave a damn about Tim or Dick and yet she's supposed to be care about Jason?I think there was an Elseworlds where she intentionally left Tim to be killed cause she saw him as a weakness.It was a WHAT IF type of comic.

So when Talia struck a braindead Jason across the face and Jason did'nt retaliate which allowed Talia to say something like"He does'nt hit me,he never hits me" I rolled my eyes.

#10 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio
@entropy_aegis said:

@RainEffect said:

@entropy_aegis: I liked the way she treated Jason in the first issue of the Lost Days, as it sort of represented a surrogate mother in a sense, as that blog says. If you remember, she resurrected Jason purely to win back Bruce's heart. Winick was really onto something with her blind love for Bruce, but then she kissed Jason and it went all downhill from there. From what I've read of the New 52's Red Hood and the Outlaws, it seems like they removed that 'romance' between Jason and Talia, but still kept the fact that she resurrected him and taught him to face his fears.

I just don't buy her being a surrogate mother to Jason,she had never met Jason prior to his death and vice versa.The most Jason would have known about her would have been through some files in the Batcomputer and knowing Bruce he would have classified her as a dangerous terrorist instead of a love interest.

She never gave a damn about Tim or Dick and yet she's supposed to be care about Jason?I think there was an Elseworlds where she intentionally left Tim to be killed cause she saw him as a weakness.It was a WHAT IF type of comic.

So when Talia struck a braindead Jason across the face and Jason did'nt retaliate which allowed Talia to say something like"He does'nt hit me,he never hits me" I rolled my eyes.

Oh yeah, I agree with some of your points - especially that last bit. I can't remember who said it, someone on this site did (I think) but they said that The Lost Days was basically just Winick's doing Fan-Fiction. I, personally, hate most of the story, except for the early appearance of Talia and how she's represented. 
 
Still, one has to admit that Talia does get screwed around with by many different writers as just some whore. I mean, one moment she's the love of Bruce's life, the next she's Bane's plaything, then she's doing it with a protege. Ugh... It hurts my soul to think about.
#11 Posted by entropy_aegis (14114 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@RainEffect said:

@entropy_aegis: I liked the way she treated Jason in the first issue of the Lost Days, as it sort of represented a surrogate mother in a sense, as that blog says. If you remember, she resurrected Jason purely to win back Bruce's heart. Winick was really onto something with her blind love for Bruce, but then she kissed Jason and it went all downhill from there. From what I've read of the New 52's Red Hood and the Outlaws, it seems like they removed that 'romance' between Jason and Talia, but still kept the fact that she resurrected him and taught him to face his fears.

I just don't buy her being a surrogate mother to Jason,she had never met Jason prior to his death and vice versa.The most Jason would have known about her would have been through some files in the Batcomputer and knowing Bruce he would have classified her as a dangerous terrorist instead of a love interest.

She never gave a damn about Tim or Dick and yet she's supposed to be care about Jason?I think there was an Elseworlds where she intentionally left Tim to be killed cause she saw him as a weakness.It was a WHAT IF type of comic.

So when Talia struck a braindead Jason across the face and Jason did'nt retaliate which allowed Talia to say something like"He does'nt hit me,he never hits me" I rolled my eyes.

Oh yeah, I agree with some of your points - especially that last bit. I can't remember who said it, someone on this site did (I think) but they said that The Lost Days was basically just Winick's doing Fan-Fiction. I, personally, hate most of the story, except for the early appearance of Talia and how she's represented. Still, one has to admit that Talia does get screwed around with by many different writers as just some whore. I mean, one moment she's the love of Bruce's life, the next she's Bane's plaything, then she's doing it with a protege. Ugh... It hurts my soul to think about.

One could argue Bane was her plaything,but eh that relationship was very complicated.

#12 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio
@entropy_aegis: *Cringes*
 
That makes it even worse. xD
#13 Posted by Mercy_ (92256 posts) - - Show Bio

This was a really good read. Definitely lives up to the title.

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#14 Posted by SkybornLord (850 posts) - - Show Bio

Honestly, I never really liked Damian, and I think what they're doing to Talia sucks.


I enjoyed reading this.

#15 Posted by daredevil21134 (10587 posts) - - Show Bio

Great topic

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#16 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio

I apologise - I had the wrong link. I just don't want anyone to think that I wrote this, even though it is like taking the words right from my mouth/heart. xD

#17 Posted by daredevil21134 (10587 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect said:

I apologise - I had the wrong link. I just don't want anyone to think that I wrote this, even though it is like taking the words right from my mouth/heart. xD

Oh Ok

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#18 Edited by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio

On a side note, I actually don't mind her as a femme fatale, as long as she isn't crossing over into Catwoman's territory. That isn't to say I disavow any other representation, as my all time favourite is, of course, her depiction in No Man's Land - which I guess you could classify, looking at that diagram, as 'beloved'.

#19 Posted by entropy_aegis (14114 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect said:

On a side note, I actually don't mind her as a femme fatale, as long as she isn't crossing over into Catwoman's territory. That isn't to say I disavow any other representation, as my all time favourite is, of course, her depiction in No Man's Land - which I guess you could classify, looking at that diagram, as 'beloved'.

Which was ironically written by the same writer who wrote NML.

#20 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio
@entropy_aegis said:

@RainEffect said:

On a side note, I actually don't mind her as a femme fatale, as long as she isn't crossing over into Catwoman's territory. That isn't to say I disavow any other representation, as my all time favourite is, of course, her depiction in No Man's Land - which I guess you could classify, looking at that diagram, as 'beloved'.

Which was ironically written by the same writer who wrote NML.

Chuck Dixon?
#21 Posted by entropy_aegis (14114 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@RainEffect said:

On a side note, I actually don't mind her as a femme fatale, as long as she isn't crossing over into Catwoman's territory. That isn't to say I disavow any other representation, as my all time favourite is, of course, her depiction in No Man's Land - which I guess you could classify, looking at that diagram, as 'beloved'.

Which was ironically written by the same writer who wrote NML.

Chuck Dixon?

Oops I meant Death and the Maidens,it was written by Greg Rucka and so was NML.

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