A beautiful letter to Grant Morrison

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#1 Edited by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio

This was not written by me. I found this on tumblr. As soon as I read it, I knew I immediately had to post it on here. It so beautifully and gracefully sums up how much Grant has messed up and continues to do so in his series, which is unjustly high-praised, Batman Inc.
 

My name is Juli. I’m 21 and studying art, and my father got me into comic books as a young girl. I’ve begun my own collection, and the first thing that I tell people when discussing comics is that my favorite character is Talia al Ghul.

I fell in love with her as a character, for what she stood for. Her heart and her love and her struggles touched me in a deep and meaningful way.

I have been actively roleplaying as Talia online for the past six months. And along the way, I have gathered as many of her appearances in the comics as I have been able. I’ve gotten into her head, and talked to other Talia fans, and explored the facets of emotion. I feel like I know this character intimately. I don’t claim perfection in the understanding of her, but I know that I know her better than most. I will defend her time and time again, because let’s face it: Talia has not been a very well received character (and I’m not blaming Catwoman fans). 

I’ve been waiting for Batman Inc. 2 for months. I knew you were writing her story and I wanted so badly for it to live up to this image in my head. I had seven dollars in my bank account and I was ready to use half of it to buy this issue (by the time it was out, it had a good bit more in it, but I digress).

I read it last night, while I was on break during my summer job as a camp counselor.

And I started to cry. And it was not because I was happy. 

I was angry, Mr. Morrison. I was angry. 

Granted, I enjoyed a vast majority of the issue. Melisande and Ra’s at Woodstock? Wonderful. Seeing pictures into Talia’s rarely-seen childhood? Great. 

But I cried and nearly threw my Android to the ground when I read the line “Talia, did you put something in my drink?”

No. 

For months, I as a Talia lover and roleplayer have had to defend the character I adore. Saying, “No, no, she didn’t rape Bruce.” Because I believe with all of my heart that Talia loves him. She has shown time and time again that she does because time and time again she has risked everything for him. Everything she knows, everything safe. I used your quote:

“For a long time, [DC] said [Son of the Demon] was out of continuity. Now it’s just kind of out of continuity. I didn’t actually read it before I started writing this. I messed up a lot of details, like Batman wasn’t drugged when he was having sex with Talia and it didn’t take place in the desert. I was relying on shaky memories. But now we have this new “Superboy punch” continuity [after Superboy Prime attacked the fabric of the universe during Infinite Crisis]. People still don’t realize how important that single punch was to cover everyone’s ass.”

Time and TIME again to try to prove that it was not so. But now you’ve retconned your retcon, and it makes me unbelievably angry. All it does it make people who don’t know Talia as I do see her as a crazy and selfish rapist bitch. And that is so far from the truth.

You also claimed that this issue would be “for the girls,” but I found no emotion here. We didn’t get into Talia’s head or see her heart, or gain any real understanding into why she does what she does. Her wants, her fears, her motivations. I could talk all day about it because I have psychoanalyzed her based on as many of her appearances that I can. I wanted something like that. Something like “The Prison” of  Batman Chronicles #8. Where we see Talia’s heart. And here, we saw very little.

This was your shot at redeeming yourself for me. You failed. And so, I won’t be picking up Batman Inc. again because I can’t bear to see this twisting of Talia’s characterization anymore. I will not watch the character I love the most be turned into what you’re making her out to be. I won’t. 

So I respectfully add myself to the tally of discouraged and disappointed female comic book readers.

Took the words right out of my heart. 
 
Original link
#2 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio

You guys should at least appreciate how well structured this was, even you, Baney.

#3 Posted by Mercy_ (91871 posts) - - Show Bio

This is amazing.

Moderator
#4 Posted by SmoothJammin (2350 posts) - - Show Bio

Get back in the kitchen

#5 Posted by TheAnnihilator (1028 posts) - - Show Bio

Not to be rude, but I think people should draw a line with their obsession with characters and comics as a whole. I don't mean to sound condescending, but people shouldn't become so dependent on a fictional character like this. I feel like she wanted to be Talia. There's nothing wrong with roleplaying, but people should create their own characters and forge their own identities.

I do respect some of her complaints though.

#6 Posted by moywar700 (2775 posts) - - Show Bio

how could you Grant Morrison.

#7 Posted by RoboShark (1283 posts) - - Show Bio

Gah....Drama.

#8 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheAnnihilator said:

Not to be rude, but I think people should draw a line with their obsession with characters and comics as a whole. I don't mean to sound condescending, but people shouldn't become so dependent on a fictional character like this. I feel like she wanted to be Talia. There's nothing wrong with roleplaying, but people should create their own characters and forge their own identities.

I do respect some of her complaints though.

Thanks for your intellectual input, as opposed to the person above you. I admit, whilst I was reading it, I did feel like she was dancing around the line of obsessing over the character, but then I looked at myself and realized that I do the exact same thing with Batman. I can't bare to see anyone desecrate his character, as if it is an attack on me personally.

@SmoothJammin said:

Get back in the kitchen

Get back in the basement.

@Mercy_ said:

This is amazing.

I know right? I had to take a breath.

#9 Posted by Mercy_ (91871 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmoothJammin said:

Get back in the kitchen

Classy.

@RainEffect: Recommend me good Talia stuff, m'dear.

Moderator
#10 Posted by TheAnnihilator (1028 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect: I can take some offense when people insult characters I like or if they're done injustice in a comic, but I don't know. I feel like she made Talia a far too big part of her life and wanted to be her. A comic book shouldn't bring you to tears of anger. It's all temporary and every character will end up being driven in a direction that fans don't like at one point or another, it's the business. It should be handled rationally and not....like that. I've just been aware that I shouldn't let comics become that big in my life so that they don't become all I have and drive to a low like her's.

#11 Edited by SmoothJammin (2350 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm off my pills o.O

I can imagine how frustrating it must be to have something your smitten by, quite possibly the most powerful figure in your world reduced to nothing in front of you by the hands Grant Morrison. When he made Grayson a smiling tool in Batman Inc it also bothered me quite a bit.

Sorry for the outburst btw, there was no need for that in here. I apologize.

#12 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mercy_:OOO OOO *becomes excited 10 year old*

My most highly recommended and, incidentally, all time favorite Batman story arc is The Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul. I don't understand why, it is written by Grant Morrison, and he somehow manages to perfect Talia's character. That she sides with Bruce over her family, and that she cares so much about Bruce's legacy. She also has some great scenes with Tim Drake.
 
Second would be Gotham City Sirens. I can't remember exactly what issues she shows up in, but she plays a big role in the plot from like #15 onwards. I lost my old files, so I need to get them again.
 
Beyond that? Stay the hell away from Death and the Maidens, Red Hood: The Lost Days and Bane of the Demon. Bonus points are given for reading Birth of the Demon which is where Bruce actually decides to marry Talia and give up being Batman (I'm pretty sure it is in there). Birth of the Demon is the storyline that Morrison scrapped in favor of Batman & Son.
 


#13 Edited by SmoothJammin (2350 posts) - - Show Bio

The resurrection of Ra's al Ghul's ending always felt rushed to me. Neat little story. i really dug the scene where Tim and Dick are fighting over the Lazarus pit, that really solidified them as brothers.

#14 Posted by Mercy_ (91871 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect said:

@Mercy_:OOO OOO *becomes excited 10 year old*

My most highly recommended and, incidentally, all time favorite Batman story arc is The Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul. I don't understand why, it is written by Grant Morrison, and he somehow manages to perfect Talia's character. That she sides with Bruce over her family, and that she cares so much about Bruce's legacy. She also has some great scenes with Tim Drake.

Second would be Gotham City Sirens. I can't remember exactly what issues she shows up in, but she plays a big role in the plot from like #15 onwards. I lost my old files, so I need to get them again.

Beyond that? Stay the hell away from Death and the Maidens, Red Hood: The Lost Days and Bane of the Demon. Bonus points are given for reading Birth of the Demon which is where Bruce actually decides to marry Talia and give up being Batman (I'm pretty sure it is in there). Birth of the Demon is the storyline that Morrison scrapped in favor of Batman & Son.

I love you <3

Moderator
#15 Posted by noj (1090 posts) - - Show Bio

Talia DID NOT rape Bruce! It was easy to misconstrue it that way but the way I read it was quite different. Bruce and Talia definatley had a connection and the slept together because of that, because they felt something for eachother. Notice right after they are just laying down and talking. Bruce seemed very willing UNTIL she said something along the lines of "our son is going to be great". THIS is what freaks him out. She certainly drugged him but it wasnt with a roofie or anything like that. He was probably given some drug that would ensure he got her pregnant with a son. It sounds a bit ridiculous but these are comics and im sure that something like that is entirely possible.

#16 Posted by sesquipedalophobe (4765 posts) - - Show Bio
@noj: Sounds like rape to me.
#17 Posted by noj (1090 posts) - - Show Bio

@sesquipedalophobe: Raping someone is when you force them to have sex against their will. That didnt happen here. Bruce WILLINGLY had sex with her and she just ensured she was going to get pregnant

#18 Posted by sesquipedalophobe (4765 posts) - - Show Bio
@noj: Oh, okay. So take away the drugging, the subterfuge and the plot within plots: they made love? Teach me so that I may never do jail time.
#19 Posted by Onemoreposter (4101 posts) - - Show Bio

I love Grant.

#20 Posted by _Zombie_ (10448 posts) - - Show Bio

I like the character, can't say I've read as much of her as I have of Ra's, but this is screwed up. Not that I had plans to buy Batman Inc. (the title is a subject of disinterest to me), but this is just.. stupid. I love Morrison's writing for the most part, but it's outright disappointing that he'd go and do this. Even worse, for what seems like no reason at all. I don't see added appeal and/or traffic to the book if he went either way, so that's out. It just honestly seems like he didn't think about what he was doing and made a stupid decision. Does it ruin the writer for me, and his past works? Certainly not. But I can't say I'll be very happy with him from now on.

#21 Posted by Brazen_Intellect (1144 posts) - - Show Bio

I do not follow Batman enough to comment on the validity of the comments, but it is a far better written rant letter than 99% of the ones on here.

#22 Edited by Saren (25084 posts) - - Show Bio
Moderator
#23 Edited by InnerVenom123 (29510 posts) - - Show Bio

I really can't help but think that introducing her knowledge of Talia through RP was not the best way to do it.

#24 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29510 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane said:

Talia sucks. That is all.

@CitizenBane said:

Talia sucks. That is all.

The post so nice he did it twice.

#25 Posted by Lvenger (21219 posts) - - Show Bio

She cried? That's really too much of a, dare I say sad response to this thing. Admittedly Talia raping Bruce might not be the best thing for the character but personally I do like the fact Talia has a vision for her world and wants everything to be perfect, ie ruling the world with Bruce by her side raising their genetically superior bratty son. There's another word beginning with b that describes Damian even better but I won't say it. The point is sometimes these things happen. Morrison is a great writer, one of my favourites but not even the best can appeal to the die-hard fangirls it would seem.

#26 Posted by Alch21 (210 posts) - - Show Bio

Him being raped was cannon a long time ago. How is it shes finding about it right now?

#27 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29510 posts) - - Show Bio

@Alch21 said:

Him being raped was cannon a long time ago. How is it shes finding about it right now?

Read the post over.

The rape was retconned into not happening, then re-retconned into happening, and she was upset.

#28 Edited by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane: God damn it dude. Some of us haven't seen the movie yet. >:(

#29 Posted by Saren (25084 posts) - - Show Bio

@AtPhantom: LOL. Sorry :P

I'll spoiler-block it.

Moderator
#30 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio

@CitizenBane: YOU'VE RUINED IT FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!11

#31 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio
@SmoothJammin said:

I'm off my pills o.O

I can imagine how frustrating it must be to have something your smitten by, quite possibly the most powerful figure in your world reduced to nothing in front of you by the hands Grant Morrison. When he made Grayson a smiling tool in Batman Inc it also bothered me quite a bit.

Sorry for the outburst btw, there was no need for that in here. I apologize.

Thanks for your apology. 
 
@Alch21 said:

Him being raped was cannon a long time ago. How is it shes finding about it right now?

Did you actually read the post? Also, have you visited Talia's page? I can tell you, because I was the one who edited the wiki, that Morrison has said, himself, that he didn't know about Birth of the Demon and how Bruce wasn't drugged when they were having sex. He admitted he stuffed up. Talia raping Bruce is not canon.
#32 Posted by Deranged Midget (17968 posts) - - Show Bio

@sesquipedalophobe said:

@noj: Oh, okay. So take away the drugging, the subterfuge and the plot within plots: they made love? Teach me so that I may never do jail time.

LOL!

Moderator
#33 Posted by Alch21 (210 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect: I guess im ahead of the curve then cause its clearly canon now. Its better this way imo.

#34 Posted by entropy_aegis (15443 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect said:

This was not written by me. I found this on tumblr. As soon as I read it, I knew I immediately had to post it on here. It so beautifully and gracefully sums up how much Grant has messed up and continues to do so in his series, which is unjustly high-praised, Batman Inc.

My name is Juli. I’m 21 and studying art, and my father got me into comic books as a young girl. I’ve begun my own collection, and the first thing that I tell people when discussing comics is that my favorite character is Talia al Ghul.

I fell in love with her as a character, for what she stood for. Her heart and her love and her struggles touched me in a deep and meaningful way.

I have been actively roleplaying as Talia online for the past six months. And along the way, I have gathered as many of her appearances in the comics as I have been able. I’ve gotten into her head, and talked to other Talia fans, and explored the facets of emotion. I feel like I know this character intimately. I don’t claim perfection in the understanding of her, but I know that I know her better than most. I will defend her time and time again, because let’s face it: Talia has not been a very well received character (and I’m not blaming Catwoman fans).

I’ve been waiting for Batman Inc. 2 for months. I knew you were writing her story and I wanted so badly for it to live up to this image in my head. I had seven dollars in my bank account and I was ready to use half of it to buy this issue (by the time it was out, it had a good bit more in it, but I digress).

I read it last night, while I was on break during my summer job as a camp counselor.

And I started to cry. And it was not because I was happy.

I was angry, Mr. Morrison. I was angry.

Granted, I enjoyed a vast majority of the issue. Melisande and Ra’s at Woodstock? Wonderful. Seeing pictures into Talia’s rarely-seen childhood? Great.

But I cried and nearly threw my Android to the ground when I read the line “Talia, did you put something in my drink?”

No.

For months, I as a Talia lover and roleplayer have had to defend the character I adore. Saying, “No, no, she didn’t rape Bruce.” Because I believe with all of my heart that Talia loves him. She has shown time and time again that she does because time and time again she has risked everything for him. Everything she knows, everything safe. I used your quote:

“For a long time, [DC] said [Son of the Demon] was out of continuity. Now it’s just kind of out of continuity. I didn’t actually read it before I started writing this. I messed up a lot of details, like Batman wasn’t drugged when he was having sex with Talia and it didn’t take place in the desert. I was relying on shaky memories. But now we have this new “Superboy punch” continuity [after Superboy Prime attacked the fabric of the universe during Infinite Crisis]. People still don’t realize how important that single punch was to cover everyone’s ass.”

Time and TIME again to try to prove that it was not so. But now you’ve retconned your retcon, and it makes me unbelievably angry. All it does it make people who don’t know Talia as I do see her as a crazy and selfish rapist bitch. And that is so far from the truth.

You also claimed that this issue would be “for the girls,” but I found no emotion here. We didn’t get into Talia’s head or see her heart, or gain any real understanding into why she does what she does. Her wants, her fears, her motivations. I could talk all day about it because I have psychoanalyzed her based on as many of her appearances that I can. I wanted something like that. Something like “The Prison” of Batman Chronicles #8. Where we see Talia’s heart. And here, we saw very little.

This was your shot at redeeming yourself for me. You failed. And so, I won’t be picking up Batman Inc. again because I can’t bear to see this twisting of Talia’s characterization anymore. I will not watch the character I love the most be turned into what you’re making her out to be. I won’t.

So I respectfully add myself to the tally of discouraged and disappointed female comic book readers.

Took the words right out of my heart.

Original link

Well if Morrison was'nt busy twisting her character then no ones gonna be picking up INC cause the twisting IS the story. @RainEffect said:

@Mercy_:OOO OOO *becomes excited 10 year old*

My most highly recommended and, incidentally, all time favorite Batman story arc is The Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul. I don't understand why, it is written by Grant Morrison, and he somehow manages to perfect Talia's character. That she sides with Bruce over her family, and that she cares so much about Bruce's legacy. She also has some great scenes with Tim Drake.

Second would be Gotham City Sirens. I can't remember exactly what issues she shows up in, but she plays a big role in the plot from like #15 onwards. I lost my old files, so I need to get them again.

Beyond that? Stay the hell away from Death and the Maidens, Red Hood: The Lost Days and Bane of the Demon. Bonus points are given for reading Birth of the Demon which is where Bruce actually decides to marry Talia and give up being Batman (I'm pretty sure it is in there). Birth of the Demon is the storyline that Morrison scrapped in favor of Batman & Son.

Resurrection was mediocre overall,it was an editorially mandated crossover.Sirens??? really Rainy? you loved that hideous characterization of not just Talia but also Ivy,Selina and Harley?

Bane of the Demon,Lost Days and Death and the Maidens would actually be definite Talia stories if the writers did'nt get carried away with over hyping their pet characters(Bane,Jason and Nyssa) but they still have great Talia moments.

Your post seems more obsessed with Batman/Talia shipping than Talia herself.

#35 Posted by KenTheProfile (402 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis

Your post seems more obsessed with Batman/Talia shipping than Talia herself.

Testify brother.

#36 Posted by KenTheProfile (402 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect: why do you like talia so much? You should love Morrison considering that he as actually made her something other then worn out polt device. if Talia was writen the way you wanted her to be she would have been a one off. Talia only works because she will never go with Batman over family.Grant Morrison has done more for Batman then anyone at least scince Frank Miller. and to not say otherwise for a throw away unknow charecter like Talia is

#37 Posted by daredevil21134 (12647 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis: nice

#38 Posted by hectorsquall (1137 posts) - - Show Bio

I love how some people idealize writers like Morrison, thinking they can do no wrong and that everyone complaining is a die-hard fangirl/fanboy obsessing over an unimportant character.

While the person who wrote that letter seems to be a little extreme in her love for the character, there's no denying that she made some very good points concerning Morrison and his portrayal of Talia. Different people will perceive the character differently and there's bound to be some inconsistencies when various writers are involved over the years. However, Morrison himself admitted that he screwed up and he even used Superboy Prime's punch to retcon his mistake. But now, making it seem like Talia put something in Bruce's drink to ensure he got her pregnant (this among other things) seems like an unnecessary change to the character who will only alienate her fans and ruin the character for the vast majority of them. Maybe there's a good reason behind it and everything will be explained later but we can't blame anyone for disliking it and not wanting to spend money on this book without knowing if it will be worth it.

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion and not everyone can be happy when a writer seemingly butcher his/her favorite character. Believe me, I know it can be very frustrating and I can sympathize with the OP and anyone in a similar situation.

#39 Posted by SandMan_ (4528 posts) - - Show Bio

...o...k...

#40 Posted by moywar700 (2775 posts) - - Show Bio

Talia didn't rape bruce, she poked a hole in his condom.

#41 Posted by ComicMan24 (147037 posts) - - Show Bio

A little too extreme if you ask me.

#42 Posted by jrock85 (2850 posts) - - Show Bio

I think we've all been frustrated at one time or another about how our favorite characters have been treated, but I think the person who wrote this letter has an unhealthy obsession.

#43 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio
@entropy_aegis said:

@RainEffect said:

@Mercy_:OOO OOO *becomes excited 10 year old*

My most highly recommended and, incidentally, all time favorite Batman story arc is The Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul. I don't understand why, it is written by Grant Morrison, and he somehow manages to perfect Talia's character. That she sides with Bruce over her family, and that she cares so much about Bruce's legacy. She also has some great scenes with Tim Drake.

Second would be Gotham City Sirens. I can't remember exactly what issues she shows up in, but she plays a big role in the plot from like #15 onwards. I lost my old files, so I need to get them again.

Beyond that? Stay the hell away from Death and the Maidens, Red Hood: The Lost Days and Bane of the Demon. Bonus points are given for reading Birth of the Demon which is where Bruce actually decides to marry Talia and give up being Batman (I'm pretty sure it is in there). Birth of the Demon is the storyline that Morrison scrapped in favor of Batman & Son.

Resurrection was mediocre overall,it was an editorially mandated crossover.Sirens??? really Rainy? you loved that hideous characterization of not just Talia but also Ivy,Selina and Harley?

Bane of the Demon,Lost Days and Death and the Maidens would actually be definite Talia stories if the writers did'nt get carried away with over hyping their pet characters(Bane,Jason and Nyssa) but they still have great Talia moments.

Your post seems more obsessed with Batman/Talia shipping than Talia herself.

I love discussing this stuff, because I never get to in real life. /closet nerd
 
Resurrection turned into something brilliant. Sure, the plot was a little difficult to follow and forced at some points, but I felt the characterization of the many characters in it was perfect. Talia, specifically, had fantastic development. She denied Ra's a vessel in Damian, because that's central to her character - she protects Damian at any cost. 
 
Sirens I only picked up for Talia, haha; I couldn't care less about the actual trio. I think the way she was portrayed there (whilst out of 'continuity' because Talia was 'supposed' to be 'insane' from Death and the Maidens) fit her character to a T. That she would piss off three (four if you count Zatanna) of the most dangerous women in Gotham all in order to protect the identity of her child and the father of her child. I mean, she constructed this elaborate plot to show the Sirens how simple it is to capture Selina and how she manipulated Zatanna into wiping Selina's memory. Sure, she gets accused of jealousy, but she did it for Damian.
 
Bane of the Demon makes me shudder. She's Bane's plaything, nothing more.
 
Maidens was ridiculous because Talia would never befriend a commoner in the same apartment building as her. Even though she consistently butts heads with Ra's, she still carries his beliefs. She's part of a League of murderous assassins, I mean - come on! The rapid murder/revival was nice and, despite it ravaging the brains of my favorite DC female, I thought it was a nice plot - but her characterization was ridiculous.
 
Now, The Lost Days I'm very iffy on. First five issues were fantastic, that she raised Jason originally to mend Bruce's heart and stop him from becoming rabid. Then, when she found out he had another Robin, she started to mold Jason so that he wouldn't become a merciless killer like her father. It has been a while since I've read it, but I remember she purposely constructs this plan to divert Jason's anger away from Bruce and to actual criminals. But then #6 came around and I proceeded to set that issue on fire. WHY would Talia cry to Jason that Bruce killed her father when she helped him kill Ra's? What a bloody joke. For the first five issues, she was being this adoptive mother for him, and then all of the sudden - 'OMG BRUCEY KILLED MY DAD, LET'S HAVE HOT SEXY TIME'. What is this bollocks?
 
It might seem that way, but what is important to remember, is that so many of her appealing character traits revolve around Bruce. The most iconic, and personal favorite, for me is her motherly nature and desire to protect not only Bruce's legacy, but their child.  "Because you will die here today. Allow me to save the legacy of the man I once loved." - final issue of Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul.
 
@KenTheProfile said:

@RainEffect: why do you like talia so much? You should love Morrison considering that he as actually made her something other then worn out polt device. if Talia was writen the way you wanted her to be she would have been a one off. Talia only works because she will never go with Batman over family.Grant Morrison has done more for Batman then anyone at least scince Frank Miller. and to not say otherwise for a throw away unknow charecter like Talia is


/facepalm
 
Don't know where you are getting your information from, mate. Talia was introduced in the Birth of the Demon arc, which is like a good twenty/thirty years old. She was the first love interest that actually made Bruce want to hang up the cowl and spend the rest of his life with her. Also, it is the exact opposite of your statement. She works because she is torn between her loyalty to Bruce and her kinship to Ra's and the League. She frequently chooses the former, however. Since Frank Miller? Are you kidding me? Do the names Chuck Dixon, Jeph Loeb and Scott Snyder mean anything to you? You know? Knightfall, No Man's Land, The Long Halloween, Dark Victory, Black Mirror?
#44 Posted by KenTheProfile (402 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect: first off MATE, I love Jeph Loeb Batman works in fact long holloween is the best storyBatman ever. but those stories did not do what Frank Miller did for Batman, you say The Dark Knight returns and even people who are not into comics like you and me know what you talking about. Those other titles are only know now because of the parts Nolan took for his films. and you miss the bigger point, yes she works because she is torn but unlike every other story with that idea, Talia picks her family not the man. If Talia picks Batman there would be no story. the whole idea of the lover being torn between her family and a man is been used in everything from Dirty Dancing to One eyed jacks and a endless list of movies and books. Alos again why do you like talia so much?

#45 Edited by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio
@KenTheProfile: You need to clean up your statements, they aren't coherent. I'm not being a douche when I say that either. 
 

you say The Dark Knight returns and even people who are not into comics like you and me know what you talking about.

I never mentioned The Dark Knight Returns? I haven't even read it, to be perfectly honest. I'm not into Frank's 'fan-fiction'. Year One was brilliant, but I don't read his other work. Regardless, your statement makes no sense because A) it is incoherent and B) I don't even know where The Dark Knight Returns was mentioned earlier.
 

Those other titles are only know now because of the parts Nolan took for his films.

Well that's just blatantly insulting the original authors. Sure, their popularity has increased since Nolan's films, but amongst the comic community, they were always well know. No Man's Land is one of my favorite arcs, because it was such a groundbreaking twist on the usual story of Batman having to fight criminals. 
 

and you miss the bigger point, yes she works because she is torn but unlike every other story with that idea, Talia picks her family not the man.

I don't even... I just... I'm baffled here at these points you're making.
 
Again, I ask you, where are you getting your information from? Would you like me to list you all the titles where she sided with Batman over Ra's? 
 

If Talia picks Batman there would be no story. the whole idea of the lover being torn between her family and a man is been used in everything from Dirty Dancing to One eyed jacks and a endless list of movies and books.

The idea of a man overcoming his inequity and fears has been used in nearly every major, award-winning film but that doesn't stop it from being recycled, does it? Your statement has no validity. Take The King's Speech for example. It is about a man overcoming his fear (and a physical debilitation) to inspire others. We could sit for hours listing films that have the same premise, but it doesn't lessen the value of that theme. In the same way, Talia having to consistently choose between her loyalty to the man who nurtured and raised her, and the man who brought her intimate happiness and an only child, is riveting. Sure, it might get old if she constantly picked Bruce, but that is why we get little twists, such as Hush where Loeb had her side with neither, but instead, side with herself. 
 

Alos again why do you like talia so much?

And the winning question. I like her so much because she breaks the mold of female characters. She's not just some sidekick or love interest that needs to be rescued from the bad guy. She's this deadly woman, heir to an army of assassins who still has a heart and is actually more selfless when it comes to her children than almost any of the 'good guys' are. I adore that sense of selfless devotion to those close to her. Sure, she's a little nuts sometimes and could send hired killers your way if you looked at her awkwardly, but it is her dedication and devotion to both her legacy and Bruce's legacy that is so appealing. Plus, I love the whole al Ghul family. I think they are one of the most intriguing villains in the history of comics.
#46 Posted by KenTheProfile (402 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect: those other titles are only know now because of the parts Nolan took for his films, that is how the non comic commuinty knows them. it only an insult because you made it one I clearly state my love for Long Halloween at the start you just ignored it to make a weak point, to make me look like a douche

all douchary aside. I was not saying you as in you (Rain) I was saying the general idea of you. like if you were to say to someone on the street The dark knight returns it is more likely they would know what your talking about then say if you said Long Halloween. your whole last paragraph was the only thing you said so far that was something other the being mad because a writer did not do what you wanted them to do. She breaks no mold, she is just another Love intrest for the hero.Dedication and Talia have nothing to do with each other, She picked so many sides that the only dedication she as is schizophrenia. also Take the time and read The Dark Knight Returns before you judge it. I took the time to read the Talia stories. Also attacking my gramar or whatever which by the way you are the only person on CV to do so, not the best way to go at it if your not being a douch.

PS: Miller is a douche after the Holy Terror thing the guy is really scum.

#47 Edited by Shotgun (900 posts) - - Show Bio

I felt the same way towards Morrison after he made Jason out into an annoying, balding red-head with acne problems and a pill-shaped helmet + tacky costume. But then the reboot came and now I can happily care less about how Grant is mishandling other characters...so long as he continues to keep his distance from my favourites.

#48 Posted by TDK_1997 (15075 posts) - - Show Bio

Talia always sucked.She was never that good of a character.

#49 Edited by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio
@KenTheProfile
 

Also attacking my gramar or whatever which by the way you are the only person on CV to do so, not the best way to go at it if your not being a douch.

I told you, I wasn't trying to be a douche. I was making a legitimate statement. I'm having a hard time understanding your statements. If English isn't your primary language, that's fine. Just... I don't know, write your stuff in Microsoft Word and let it correct it for you. 
 

those other titles are only know now because of the parts Nolan took for his films, that is how the non comic commuinty knows them.

That is absolutely untrue. Let's take the Long Halloween. Loeb basically created Two-Face. Now, Two-Face was incredibly well known before Nolan's films, thanks to the Batman Animated Series and Batman Forever. Not only that, but it was a critically acclaimed series that made it onto the New York Times' best selling list. I don't credit Nolan with that - I credit Loeb with that. So, in my opinion, Frank Miller isn't the only guy who did good things for Batman.
 

your whole last paragraph was the only thing you said so far that was something other the being mad because a writer did not do what you wanted them to do.

I didn't write the letter, mate. I said I agreed with it. And I think it is perfectly justified if a writer takes a well known character and then breaks their personality horribly. How would you like it if Bruce Wayne decided to get drunk, run around Gotham in the Batsuit without the mask on and then piss on the graves of his parents? That's not being angry about the writer 'not doing what you want them to do', that's being angry at the writer for not understanding the character and, thereby, royally screwing them up.
 

Dedication and Talia have nothing to do with each other, She picked so many sides that the only dedication she as is schizophrenia.

This is so incorrect that I can't even fathom it. Let's start a list, shall we?
 
  1. Son of the Demon - Married Bruce and had a child. Then, because Bruce nearly died protecting her, decided to separate in order to protect him.
  2. No Man's Land - Was the driving force behind Bruce putting the cowl back on and taking back his city. I have the scans.
  3. Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul - Sided with Bruce multiple times, and eventually led to the death of Ra's.
  4. Hush - Gave Bruce medicine so that he could save Selina's life.
  5. Red Hood: The Lost Days - Stalled Jason from killing Bruce so that he would learn to kill criminals instead.
  6. Gotham City Sirens - Attempted to trick Zatanna into wiping Selina's memory in order to protect Bruce's identity. Also created a strategy that proved how easy it is to capture Selina.
  7. Tower of Babel - Tried to stop Ra's from using Bruce's anti-Justice League strategies. Ra's had his assassins shoot her to put her out of commission.
  8. Superman/Batman - Sells out Lex Luthor and destroys his empire from within, giving the assets to Wayne.
Would you like any more? Or are you convinced yet?
#50 Posted by CrimsonAvenger (1162 posts) - - Show Bio

That chick has an unhealthy obsession over a fictional character and she should probably see a psychiatrist.

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