Swamp Thing back in the DCU?

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#51 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:
" @The Dark Huntress said:
" @Silver2467 said:
" @The Dark Huntress said:
" @Silver2467 said:
" @The Dark Huntress said:
" @Silver2467 said:
" @The Dark Huntress said:
" @Silver2467 said:
 his individual story line in Brightest Day makes no sense. "
Character-wise or just from a general point of story-telling? "
Story telling. I do understand the characterization and why the different characters are relevant and used the way they are. Just the plot that makes no sense. "
Doesn't that seem to be a running theme with DC events lately? "
Under Johns? Pretty much.  "
I'd add Morrison into that equation. He's a fantastic writer, but if you haven't read the every single tie in and every issue he's written in the last however long, you'll have absolutely no idea what the hell is going on.  "
That is just Morrison's writing style though. He has a huge build-up, multiple hints spread systematically throughout, and then his ending. I would not in any way identify him with Johns, who has been the major writer for most of DC's recent and primary events.  "
It's his style and I love it, it just makes for confusing stories at times. I still don't entirely understand Final Crisis and I've read the deluxe trade, which compiles just about every tie-in. 

I'm actually kind of a fan of Johns, which is attributed to the fact that I haven't been reading DC a very long time and I don't know a whole lot of the back story or continuity. 
"
Final Crisis was not altogether Morrison's fault though. He had an original concept that he planned to integrate into it, but his notes had to be revised once some other writers changed what would have been the precursor to his initial design. 

Johns can be appreciated if you are unable to recognize the alterations he makes to characters and continuity. 
"
One of Morrison's requests when writing FC was that no one touch the New Gods in the interim between Seven Soldiers and FC. Then we got Death of the New Gods and Countdown, so Morrison had to try and explain those as well as work his original design. I love Final Crisis, but some parts are a little out there. I look at it like Evangelion, it's not something you have to understand right away, you might need to read it five times and read a dozen essays on it, but once you do get it; MINDBLOWN.

Johns' older stuff (His Wally run and Teen Titans) are great. GL: Rebirth was the beginning of his end. He just needs a good kick in the shin, and he'll stop retconning stuff and get back to the Johns of old.
#52 Posted by Silver2467 (16527 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress said: 
Fair enough. 

Exactly. His GL volume is the first Lantern stuff I've ever read. I have no previous knowledge other than the Justice League cartoon.
"
Some of Johns' GL work is good, but parts of it can be annoying simply by the manner in which he writers certain characters and with his retcons.

@FadeToBlackBolt said: 
One of Morrison's requests when writing FC was that no one touch the New Gods in the interim between Seven Soldiers and FC. Then we got Death of the New Gods and Countdown, so Morrison had to try and explain those as well as work his original design. I love Final Crisis, but some parts are a little out there. I look at it like Evangelion, it's not something you have to understand right away, you might need to read it five times and read a dozen essays on it, but once you do get it; MINDBLOWN.Johns' older stuff (His Wally run and Teen Titans) are great. GL: Rebirth was the beginning of his end. He just needs a good kick in the shin, and he'll stop retconning stuff and get back to the Johns of old. "
Exactly. His would-be work was shot because writers ignored his request.

I agree with this.
#53 Posted by entropy_aegis (15118 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Dark Huntress:
Blame Dan Didiot.Death of the New Gods,Countdown,Salvation run,Amazons attack and the many other retarded tieinns like that Justice League comic where Black canary beats Giganta were some of the worst comics ever written and had nothing to do with Final Crisis.
#54 Posted by turoksonofstone (13199 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silkcuts:
Not sure I would feel confident either.
#55 Posted by Billy Batson (57918 posts) - - Show Bio

I want a new series!

#56 Posted by Silkcuts (5272 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silver2467 said:
Johns can be appreciated if you are unable to recognize the alterations he makes to characters and continuity. 
"
#57 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silkcuts said:
" @turoksonofstone said:
" Vertigo Characters in the DCU? Hmmmmm. Lets see what happens with JC.. "
I worry with this, since Peter Milligan is blowing up huge and has his fingers in a lot of books, it makes sense business-wise to tie Hellblazer back to the DCU.  Story-wise it is a horrible idea and that is why I hate Didiot. "
wait...Hellblazer is tying into the DCU? when did this happen
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#58 Posted by Silkcuts (5272 posts) - - Show Bio
@aztek the lost said:
" @Silkcuts said:
" @turoksonofstone said:
" Vertigo Characters in the DCU? Hmmmmm. Lets see what happens with JC.. "
I worry with this, since Peter Milligan is blowing up huge and has his fingers in a lot of books, it makes sense business-wise to tie Hellblazer back to the DCU.  Story-wise it is a horrible idea and that is why I hate Didiot. "
wait...Hellblazer is tying into the DCU? when did this happen "
It is not that I know of, be the tone in which the book is heading I can see Pete forced down that path, that is why Shade left first and now is in the DCU.  For JC to return, they have to reintroduce the mysterious ways he was before 1993.  Alec is officially back, shade very soon.  Most of Johns fans are still in the DCU.  Didiot wanted all the Vertigo toys back and I am glad John is still off the game board, but if DC can still outsell Marvel with their current powers at by, then what would stop them from taking JC as well?
#59 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silkcuts said:
" @aztek the lost said:
" @Silkcuts said:
" @turoksonofstone said:
" Vertigo Characters in the DCU? Hmmmmm. Lets see what happens with JC.. "
I worry with this, since Peter Milligan is blowing up huge and has his fingers in a lot of books, it makes sense business-wise to tie Hellblazer back to the DCU.  Story-wise it is a horrible idea and that is why I hate Didiot. "
wait...Hellblazer is tying into the DCU? when did this happen "
It is not that I know of, be the tone in which the book is heading I can see Pete forced down that path, that is why Shade left first and now is in the DCU.  For JC to return, they have to reintroduce the mysterious ways he was before 1993.  Alec is officially back, shade very soon.  Most of Johns fans are still in the DCU.  Didiot wanted all the Vertigo toys back and I am glad John is still off the game board, but if DC can still outsell Marvel with their current powers at by, then what would stop them from taking JC as well? "
umm...the fact that John is 58 and all the people who he knew in his 30's are still unaged in the DCU

oh no wait, logic doesn't apply :(

I am really pissed Shade is going back to the DCU, my only consolation is that Milligan is writing him (although that brings up the dismay that Milligan is going mainstream and makes me worry if he'll keep the part of him that makes me love his writing)...though isn't that an alternate universe Shade? I guess I'm just wondering if DCU characters are no longer allowed in Hellblazer and the series is only allowed to have characters born in the series or if they'll do the two different versions approach because that Alec isn't the Swamp Thing Vertigo had, at least appearance-wise (sure it could be explained away as something that happened between then and now but I doubt it will be)
Moderator
#60 Posted by Silkcuts (5272 posts) - - Show Bio
@aztek the lost said:
" @Silkcuts said:
" @aztek the lost said:
" @Silkcuts said:
" @turoksonofstone said:
" Vertigo Characters in the DCU? Hmmmmm. Lets see what happens with JC.. "
I worry with this, since Peter Milligan is blowing up huge and has his fingers in a lot of books, it makes sense business-wise to tie Hellblazer back to the DCU.  Story-wise it is a horrible idea and that is why I hate Didiot. "
wait...Hellblazer is tying into the DCU? when did this happen "
It is not that I know of, be the tone in which the book is heading I can see Pete forced down that path, that is why Shade left first and now is in the DCU.  For JC to return, they have to reintroduce the mysterious ways he was before 1993.  Alec is officially back, shade very soon.  Most of Johns fans are still in the DCU.  Didiot wanted all the Vertigo toys back and I am glad John is still off the game board, but if DC can still outsell Marvel with their current powers at by, then what would stop them from taking JC as well? "
umm...the fact that John is 58 and all the people who he knew in his 30's are still unaged in the DCU

oh no wait, logic doesn't apply :(

I am really pissed Shade is going back to the DCU, my only consolation is that Milligan is writing him (although that brings up the dismay that Milligan is going mainstream and makes me worry if he'll keep the part of him that makes me love his writing)...though isn't that an alternate universe Shade? I guess I'm just wondering if DCU characters are no longer allowed in Hellblazer and the series is only allowed to have characters born in the series or if they'll do the two different versions approach because that Alec isn't the Swamp Thing Vertigo had, at least appearance-wise (sure it could be explained away as something that happened between then and now but I doubt it will be)
"
Speaking of John's age, you never questioned why Milligan is exploring different time-lines?  Like when he went back in time for his wifey.  In the back of my mind I question is Milligan given a good amount of time to wrap up Vertigo John?  Like up to 300 then John worked back in, to restore his "Messiah character" like appeal he had when both him and Alec were in the DCU.

Maybe Vertigo's original fault was it wasn't a separate universe like how Marvel Max is.  Most Vertigo versions are long forgotten after the character returned to the DCU.  Vertigo Swampy is so messed up that I think that all the older versions after Vol. 2 are likely trying to be swept under the rug.  This is why no BKV Vol. 3 reprints besides the short story in Vertigo's Winter's Edge.
#61 Posted by aztek_the_lost (28224 posts) - - Show Bio
@Silkcuts said:
" @aztek the lost said:
" @Silkcuts said:
" @aztek the lost said:
" @Silkcuts said:
" @turoksonofstone said:
" Vertigo Characters in the DCU? Hmmmmm. Lets see what happens with JC.. "
I worry with this, since Peter Milligan is blowing up huge and has his fingers in a lot of books, it makes sense business-wise to tie Hellblazer back to the DCU.  Story-wise it is a horrible idea and that is why I hate Didiot. "
wait...Hellblazer is tying into the DCU? when did this happen "
It is not that I know of, be the tone in which the book is heading I can see Pete forced down that path, that is why Shade left first and now is in the DCU.  For JC to return, they have to reintroduce the mysterious ways he was before 1993.  Alec is officially back, shade very soon.  Most of Johns fans are still in the DCU.  Didiot wanted all the Vertigo toys back and I am glad John is still off the game board, but if DC can still outsell Marvel with their current powers at by, then what would stop them from taking JC as well? "
umm...the fact that John is 58 and all the people who he knew in his 30's are still unaged in the DCU

oh no wait, logic doesn't apply :(

I am really pissed Shade is going back to the DCU, my only consolation is that Milligan is writing him (although that brings up the dismay that Milligan is going mainstream and makes me worry if he'll keep the part of him that makes me love his writing)...though isn't that an alternate universe Shade? I guess I'm just wondering if DCU characters are no longer allowed in Hellblazer and the series is only allowed to have characters born in the series or if they'll do the two different versions approach because that Alec isn't the Swamp Thing Vertigo had, at least appearance-wise (sure it could be explained away as something that happened between then and now but I doubt it will be)
"
Speaking of John's age, you never questioned why Milligan is exploring different time-lines?  Like when he went back in time for his wifey.  In the back of my mind I question is Milligan given a good amount of time to wrap up Vertigo John?  Like up to 300 then John worked back in, to restore his "Messiah character" like appeal he had when both him and Alec were in the DCU.Maybe Vertigo's original fault was it wasn't a separate universe like how Marvel Max is.  Most Vertigo versions are long forgotten after the character returned to the DCU.  Vertigo Swampy is so messed up that I think that all the older versions after Vol. 2 are likely trying to be swept under the rug.  This is why no BKV Vol. 3 reprints besides the short story in Vertigo's Winter's Edge. "
John needs to die (permanently) in Hellblazer, that is my one and only request (and I'm willing to wait until he's in his 70's or something), whether or not the book continues without him I don't feel so strongly about it but I think it should continue...however, even though Milligan's Hellblazer run is currently the best of any IMO, if it all turns out to be a stunt to get John back in the DCU, my support will disappear 100%...I don't support in the slightest this idea that the innovations of unique creator-driven properties all end up getting left at the wayside so that someone doesn't have to come up with a new character or one that isn't actually being used in their company-crossover book

is Marvel MAX a separate universe? I didn't know that...I knew stories like Legacy of Fire were but isn't Alias in the MU?

well, to be fair, the version shown in the picture isn't that of the end of Vol. 2 either, or even the end of Moore for that matter? he doesn't really remind me of any Swamp Thing...I certainly wouldn't recognize him...the closest thing would be Alec Holland's corpse in Diggle's arc but that thing was the complete opposite in mannerisms (bestial vs. docile)
Moderator
#62 Posted by Silkcuts (5272 posts) - - Show Bio
@aztek the lost:  AS much as I want to agree with you that when Hellblazer ends, it ends with Johns permanent death, I know it will never happen.  Even if John has part of the luxury British Characters have, with the ability to age in real time, John is still owned by an American company.  American comic culture keeps characters in publication to protect copy-rights.  This is why Barry Allen died in comics for many years but was the TV hero version for flash.  Ambush Bug even gets exposure so the money hungry DC Comics can keep him.

My understanding Marvel Max is a separate uni.  

I really have no clue what DC has in store with Swamp Thing.  As much as it should be the most recent Vertigo version, the darn series isn't even  properly collected for new fans to read.

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