Why do people say Superman doesnt have a cool rogues Gallery?

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#1 Posted by Eternal19 (2076 posts) - - Show Bio

A lot of people say that the villians are a huge part of what makes a superhero cool, which is true. But, some people say that one of the reasons superman is boring is because he doesnt have an interesting rogues gallery. But, i say otherwise superman has some pretty cool villians just to name a few....

Parasite

Zod

Brainiac

Lex Luthor

Bizarro

Metallo

Toyman( If used right)

Thats just to name a few. I just dont see why people think superman has a crappy rogues gallery.

#2 Posted by Video_Martian (5645 posts) - - Show Bio

I like Parasite and Zod...

#3 Posted by grenade728 (748 posts) - - Show Bio

I really like Superman's rogue's gallery and I think it is one of the best.

#4 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29499 posts) - - Show Bio

The same reasons people say Superman sucks.

#5 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

Because they don't f*ckin read Superman!

#6 Posted by ComicMan24 (147090 posts) - - Show Bio

Because most people have only seen his movies where only Luthor and Zod are being used.

#7 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

@ComicMan24 said:

Because most people have only seen his movies where only Luthor and Zod are being used.

Well Superman 3 had both Bizarro and Brainiac... Nyahahaha! Oh and Superman 4 had Sentry... Nyahahaha!

#8 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

Toyman

/thread

#9 Posted by Skunkstein (591 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssejllenrad said:

Because they don't f*ckin read Superman!

This and this:

@ssejllenrad said:

Because they don't f*ckin read Superman!

Oh and this:

@InnerVenom123 said:

The same reasons people say Superman sucks.

and this:

@ssejllenrad said:

Because they don't f*ckin read Superman!

Conclusion:

They dont know shit!

#10 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@ssejllenrad said:

Because they don't f*ckin read Superman!

Pretty much this. People are idiots. 
#11 Posted by longbowhunter (7077 posts) - - Show Bio

I've always thought Superman had a really solid cast of villains. I'm actually a bigger fan of Luthor than I am of Superman. Don't forget about Darkseid and Mongul. Two of the heaviest hitters in the DCU.

#12 Posted by ComicMan24 (147090 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssejllenrad said:

@ComicMan24 said:

Because most people have only seen his movies where only Luthor and Zod are being used.

Well Superman 3 had both Bizarro and Brainiac... Nyahahaha! Oh and Superman 4 had Sentry... Nyahahaha!

lol True, there are similarities between those two. Btw agreed with what you said.

#13 Posted by Rumble Man (11119 posts) - - Show Bio

majority prefers GRIMDARK compared to NOBLEBRIGHT

#14 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio

I wish people would stop thinking Bizzaro is an actual credible villain..

#15 Posted by TDK_1997 (14889 posts) - - Show Bio

Well they aren't stupid but they aren't the best either.

#16 Posted by supermanfan1234 (206 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssejllenrad said:

Because they don't f*ckin read Superman!

#17 Posted by Joygirl (19914 posts) - - Show Bio

His rogues aren't that good. Bizarro, Lobo, and Toyman are pretty sweet but Luthor, Parasite, Zod, etc., are pretty lame. Braniac is mediocre.

#18 Posted by Ms. Omega (4469 posts) - - Show Bio

Parasite is my favorite.

#19 Posted by TheCannon (18658 posts) - - Show Bio

Because his rogues gallery is mediocre at best.

#20 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio

@Joygirl said:

His rogues aren't that good. Bizarro, Lobo, and Toyman are pretty sweet but Luthor, Parasite, Zod, etc., are pretty lame. Braniac is mediocre.

Okay, I know we all have our preferences and opinions regarding character, but seriously? The villains which were created as jokes or have been nothing but a joke throughout their existence are the good ones, while the villains actually capable of carrying a serious storyline, villains who explore the idea of what makes someone a Superman and thus serve as foils to Superman better than anyone else, are the lame ones? Woot???

#21 Posted by CODYSF (2053 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssejllenrad said:

Because they don't f*ckin read Superman!

So true

#22 Posted by Lvenger (19836 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssejllenrad said:

Because they don't f*ckin read Superman!

#23 Posted by Joygirl (19914 posts) - - Show Bio

Yay, I'm wrong, what a shock. *takes nap*

#24 Posted by SoA (4828 posts) - - Show Bio

i like parasite , lex to a degree,braniac, metallo, bizarro, hank henshaw, and doomsday , ruin was also kinda cool , don't care much for zod but i did like preus. and im not that much of a superman fan , you know who was a weak rogues gallery? cyborg . everyone else in the n52 justice league has at least two main rogues , cyborg nada , and no brother blood doesn't count , that's a titans villain . (and no amazo doesn't count either , they haven't fought )

#25 Edited by Avenging-X-Bolt (13121 posts) - - Show Bio

Because people are ignorant but like to act as if they aren't

Online
#26 Posted by Dracade102 (8167 posts) - - Show Bio

I can't help but feel Superman writers never try playing Superman's villains to their full potential... Superman easily has one of the better rogue galleries as far as superheroes go (at least in my humble opinion) but when writers use them, I can't help but feel they're being used as plot devices instead of antagonists.

#27 Posted by The_Tree (7446 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssejllenrad said:

Because they don't f*ckin read Superman!

Yup. I love Superman's rogues gallery, they're pretty awesome.

#28 Posted by Jayso4201 (596 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think that his gallery sucks, I just think its hard to have villains who can match him and give him a challenge.

#29 Edited by Squalleon (4608 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman has one of the best Rogue galleries ever.From Universal tyrants to ingenious scientists are all there.

I really hope we see some more of villians that didn't make much impact on their first appereances like The Auctioner and The Encantadora.

#30 Posted by Space_Captain_Ulyverse (33 posts) - - Show Bio

I think with Superman being who he is, it's difficult to get villains who can fight him properly? I like a lot of Superman villains alas, sometimes you get the feeling they like in substance in comparison to Spidey's or Bats' Rogue Galleries. Personally - I think Superman should be fighting tough villains and not people like Toyman who he can easily take down in seconds. Superman stories should be something similar to big hitters smacking each other around in my humble opinion.

#31 Edited by Squalleon (4608 posts) - - Show Bio

@Space_Captain_Ulyverse said:

I think with Superman being who he is, it's difficult to get villains who can fight him properly? I like a lot of Superman villains alas, sometimes you get the feeling they like in substance in comparison to Spidey's or Bats' Rogue Galleries. Personally - I think Superman should be fighting tough villains and not people like Toyman who he can easily take down in seconds. Superman stories should be something similar to big hitters smacking each other around in my humble opinion.

Thats the problem with modern day superman he was striped of his inteligent and became a mindless punching machine.For me Luthor,Brainiac,Darkseid,Mr. Mxyzplk are the villians that define superman because they challenge both his mind and body.I see where you are getting at but think about it this way. Joker can't beat batman in physical combat but sure as hell he can mess his mind(poor example :-P).

#32 Posted by SmashBrawler (5731 posts) - - Show Bio

I love the following Superman villains:

  • Lex Luthor
  • Brainiac
  • Zod
  • Bizarro
  • Mr. Mxyzptlk
  • Parasite
  • Cyborg Superman (even if he's more of a GL villain nowadays)
  • Mongul (same as Cyborg Superman)
  • Solaris
  • Doomsday (even if his only reason to exist was to kill Superman)

I never liked Metallo because I always felt he was a gimmicky villain, and I always liked Darkseid better as a DCU villain.

#33 Posted by batfan1939 (364 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman has a solid core cast of villains, and a lot of losers like the Prankster and Toyman (who COULD be reworked into an interesting villain -- Superman: TAS proved that).

I think a lot of Superman's villains would work better against street-levels, like Spidey or Batman, but shouldn't be a threat to Supes. He holds back too much. Give him some heavy hitters, or have more wide-spanning villains. I would love a storyline where he ends up trapped on Apokalips, and has to get to a boom tube or something.

Godfall was excellent, and Manchester Black was an instant classic -- sort of a telekinetic answer to Brainiac -- actually, I wouldn't mind if New 52 merged them together in one character. Brainiac's genius with Manchester's cynicism.

Luthor needs to go back behind the scenes, ala the Byrne era. That was a nice dynamic!

Darkseid and Mongul need to be given a rest, it seems like they're the go-to villains, and the novelty's wearing off.

Parasite's kind of an idiot for not stealing someone else's powers, THEN going after the top gun. It's not like there aren't other heroes that could pose a threat to Superman. Maybe have Parasite as a pariah, feeding off the other villains like the Leech in Static Shock (TAS) and pissing everyone off.

Why has Luminous never been introduced like Livewire was? He was the more interesting character, especially since he was as much an enemy to Lois as Superman.

Metallo is probably one of my favorites, but he's another one that's been overused -- why haven't any of these powerhouses appeared in the movies? They're better than the Phantom Zoners, and Darkseid could repace Luthor in the intelligence department.

Preus is/was awesome because he's Superman without the restraint, and he's more gray-area than a lot of Superman villains. They'd have to rework his motivation to keep him interesting, though.

I liked Riot (though I only saw him in a Superman/Batman crossover comic), he's great for work-for-hire.

Lobo is a perennial favorite of mine, and another one Superman could due it out. Again, he's a gray-area character. Those, as you can probably tell, are my favorites.

#34 Posted by sethysquare (3843 posts) - - Show Bio

Hello, you forgot THE DOOMSDAY

#35 Posted by Space_Captain_Ulyverse (33 posts) - - Show Bio

@Squalleon said:

@Space_Captain_Ulyverse said:

I think with Superman being who he is, it's difficult to get villains who can fight him properly? I like a lot of Superman villains alas, sometimes you get the feeling they like in substance in comparison to Spidey's or Bats' Rogue Galleries. Personally - I think Superman should be fighting tough villains and not people like Toyman who he can easily take down in seconds. Superman stories should be something similar to big hitters smacking each other around in my humble opinion.

Thats the problem with modern day superman he was striped of his inteligent and became a mindless punching machine.For me Luthor,Brainiac,Darkseid,Mr. Mxyzplk are the villians that define superman because they challenge both his mind and body.I see where you are getting at but think about it this way. Joker can't beat batman in physical combat but sure as hell he can mess his mind(poor example :-P).

Yeah, sort of agree with that idea but - if we're going to have Superman be a thinking comic then they need to be careful with how they approach it. I imagine it could be very "Gary Stu" very easily, (I don't trust writers enough to see them not do something like that).

And, (as comicvine/my browser's being strange, I replying to the post below above it), I totally agree!

@batfan1939 said:

I think a lot of Superman's villains would work better against street-levels, like Spidey or Batman, but shouldn't be a threat to Supes. He holds back too much. Give him some heavy hitters, or have more wide-spanning villains. I would love a storyline where he ends up trapped on Apokalips, and has to get to a boom tube or something.

#36 Posted by Space_Captain_Ulyverse (33 posts) - - Show Bio

@batfan1939 said:

I think a lot of Superman's villains would work better against street-levels, like Spidey or Batman, but shouldn't be a threat to Supes. He holds back too much. Give him some heavy hitters, or have more wide-spanning villains. I would love a storyline where he ends up trapped on Apokalips, and has to get to a boom tube or something.

I absolutely agree! @Squalleon said:

@Space_Captain_Ulyverse said:

I think with Superman being who he is, it's difficult to get villains who can fight him properly? I like a lot of Superman villains alas, sometimes you get the feeling they like in substance in comparison to Spidey's or Bats' Rogue Galleries. Personally - I think Superman should be fighting tough villains and not people like Toyman who he can easily take down in seconds. Superman stories should be something similar to big hitters smacking each other around in my humble opinion.

Thats the problem with modern day superman he was striped of his inteligent and became a mindless punching machine.For me Luthor,Brainiac,Darkseid,Mr. Mxyzplk are the villians that define superman because they challenge both his mind and body.I see where you are getting at but think about it this way. Joker can't beat batman in physical combat but sure as hell he can mess his mind(poor example :-P).

I get that but - I really don't think that Comic Writers would stop themselves from turning Superman into the Ultimate Gary Stu. Now, I like Superman and I like a lot of writers. I've got a weird view on every writer I read depending on how much of their stuff I've read and what they're writing. With Superman, and his villain roster at that, there is this huge sense of him being a "Gary Stu." Why? Because he was a Gary Stu before there were Gary Stus. And that's not anyone's fault, as Superman is one of the first. Some would argue the first character of his kind. His villains were set originally in this idea that Superman'd adversary - be it the zantastic Toyman or the Genius Lex Luthor - was just going to lose. Now we do want a challenge in our storytelling and Comic writers sometimes struggle to deliver it. And that is why, Superman should be equally strengthened, to show that challenge in a fight once again.

#37 Posted by Eternal19 (2076 posts) - - Show Bio

@sethysquare said:

Hello, you forgot THE DOOMSDAY

I dont really like Doomsday. He's not really an interesting villian to me.

#38 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

I want the lesser-known villains to take the stage. People like Massacre or Bloodsport or Dominus or whatever.

#39 Posted by SandMan_ (4528 posts) - - Show Bio

Composite Superman? XD

#40 Posted by War07 (135 posts) - - Show Bio

He needs to have cosmic type Villains!!!

#41 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

@SandMan_ said:

Composite Superman? XD

Ugliest Superman villain of all. Nyahaha!

On a completely unrelated note... Dude, you really spend a lot of time here in the Superman forums, don't you? Top Superman posters have you in #1 and #10! Wow!

#42 Posted by G_Money_Christmas (883 posts) - - Show Bio

I personally think Batman has the best rogues gallery, I grew up watching Batman. But I think Superman has a good one, too

#43 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

@Eternal19: Because they don't read Superman.

Most people I find who complain the most about Superman have never picked up one of his books.

#44 Posted by sethysquare (3843 posts) - - Show Bio

@Eternal19 said:

@sethysquare said:

Hello, you forgot THE DOOMSDAY

I dont really like Doomsday. He's not really an interesting villian to me.

you crazy?

#45 Posted by The Stegman (24323 posts) - - Show Bio
His rogues are among the best
#46 Posted by cbishop (8144 posts) - - Show Bio

Mostly, people complain about Superman's villains, because they're not as exciting as Batman villains. It has been said for years (especially since Wizard Magazine started) that Batman's villains are what makes Batman so interesting. No matter which Bat-villain is used in a story, the story is almost always cool. With Superman, you go through a lot of lackluster stories before getting to a good one. Too many of his stories are read with the thought, "Seriously, he should have had this sewn up by now."

I got to chat with Mark Waid once, when he was doing a comic signing at my LCS. He was just getting ready to start a run on JLA, and we (the entire group) were talking about the characters on the team. When we got to Superman, I threw out the idea that maybe DC could use some of Firestorm's then-unused villains against Superman. We discussed who would work against Superman, and Waid wrapped it up by telling us that when they were doing the original DC Who's Who, whenever they ran across a villain they didn't recognize, they assumed it must be a Firestorm villain, because Firestorm's villains were that forgettable.

The thing is, I went home and got looking at Superman's villains, and found that many of them paralleled Firestorm's villains. So, if Firestorm's villains = forgettable, and Superman's villains = Firestorm's villains, then Superman's villains therefore = forgettable. Now, this was sometime in the 1990's, and we're talking about the villains being used the most at the time.

The difference between Batman & Superman is that they'll use Two-Face, and the Bat-story is awesome. They'll use Scarecrow, and the Bat-Story is awesome. They'll use Joker, Catwoman, Hush, Riddler, or even the Ventriloquist, and the Bat-story is awesome. With Superman, they'll use Brainiac, and the Super-story is awesome. They'll use Toyman, and the Super-story is "Why isn't he a Bat-villain?" They'll use Luthor, and the Luthor-story is awesome. They'll use Terra-Man, and the Super-story is filler. They'll use Zod, and the Super-story is awesome. They'll have a little family time, with the Kents, Lois, or Supergirl, and the story is sweet. They'll guest star the Legion of Super-Heroes, and the story is slightly epic. They'll use Prankster, and you'll wonder why some pickpocket hasn't killed him yet. They'll use Bizarro or Mr Mxy, and the story is either good, or comedy relief.

Superman does not have a group of consistently cool villains. He spends more time protecting his loved ones from harm, than he does actually taking on physical challenges for himself. I think every Superman villain should bring a feel of epicness to the story, and many of them just don't.

#47 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio

@cbishop said:

The difference between Batman & Superman is that they'll use Two-Face, and the Bat-story is awesome. They'll use Scarecrow, and the Bat-Story is awesome. They'll use Joker, Catwoman, Hush, Riddler, or even the Ventriloquist, and the Bat-story is awesome. With Superman, they'll use Brainiac, and the Super-story is awesome. They'll use Toyman, and the Super-story is "Why isn't he a Bat-villain?" They'll use Luthor, and the Luthor-story is awesome. They'll use Terra-Man, and the Super-story is filler. They'll use Zod, and the Super-story is awesome. They'll have a little family time, with the Kents, Lois, or Supergirl, and the story is sweet. They'll guest star the Legion of Super-Heroes, and the story is slightly epic. They'll use Prankster, and you'll wonder why some pickpocket hasn't killed him yet. They'll use Bizarro or Mr Mxy, and the story is either good, or comedy relief.

This is an important point. The problem with Superman's rogue gallery is that he has few villains which actually resonate with him. One of the most essential purposes of the villain is to be a foil for the hero. Why are Batman's villains so awesome? They're not that better or worse or scarier or better developed than other villains, but they work because most of them mirror Batman in some way. When you put Two-Face in a story, the theme of duality and conflicting personalities automatically presents itself, and its something which can be explored in Batman himself. When you use Scarecrow you confront Batman with his own fears, but you can also draw parallels in Batman's own use of fear as weapon. With Riddler, you challenge the detective in Batman, and so on... Each villain responds to an aspect of Batman and allows you to tell a different type of story with him. Each villain adds something to the character of Batman, as good villains should.

So what about Superman? Do his villains work? Some do. Zod challenges the kryptonian nature in Superman. Lex challenges the human nature in Superman (among other thing. Lex's and Superman's connection is one of the deepest and most complex relationships in comics today - part of what makes Lex awesome). Brainiac again serves as the evil alien versus Superman's benevolent one. Hell, even Darkseid, as much as I hate using him in this context, serves can serve as a fascinating foil for the Man of steel.

And now comes the problem. Beyond those few, Superman has barely any villains which should be in a Superman story. Metallo? Okay, you can work something with him. Toyman? No. Prankster? No. Bizzaro? F%&K No. Even Mxy and Doomsday can only be used sparingly and have little to add.

That's the issue with Superman's gallery, and people are both saying they're awesome and lame in this thread. The truth is Superman has great villains, but not a lot of them.

#48 Posted by cbishop (8144 posts) - - Show Bio

@AtPhantom said:

This is an important point. The problem with Superman's rogue gallery is that he has few villains which actually resonate with him. One of the most essential purposes of the villain is to be a foil for the hero. Why are Batman's villains so awesome? They're not that better or worse or scarier or better developed than other villains, but they work because most of them mirror Batman in some way. When you put Two-Face in a story, the theme of duality and conflicting personalities automatically presents itself, and its something which can be explored in Batman himself. When you use Scarecrow you confront Batman with his own fears, but you can also draw parallels in Batman's own use of fear as weapon. With Riddler, you challenge the detective in Batman, and so on... Each villain responds to an aspect of Batman and allows you to tell a different type of story with him. Each villain adds something to the character of Batman, as good villains should.

So what about Superman? Do his villains work? Some do. Zod challenges the kryptonian nature in Superman. Lex challenges the human nature in Superman (among other thing. Lex's and Superman's connection is one of the deepest and most complex relationships in comics today - part of what makes Lex awesome). Brainiac again serves as the evil alien versus Superman's benevolent one. Hell, even Darkseid, as much as I hate using him in this context, serves can serve as a fascinating foil for the Man of steel.

And now comes the problem. Beyond those few, Superman has barely any villains which should be in a Superman story. Metallo? Okay, you can work something with him. Toyman? No. Prankster? No. Bizzaro? F%&K No. Even Mxy and Doomsday can only be used sparingly and have little to add.

That's the issue with Superman's gallery, and people are both saying they're awesome and lame in this thread. The truth is Superman has great villains, but not a lot of them.

I think Bizarro works well with Superman, but he needs to be more the pre-COIE Bizarro, and less the flying Frankenstein monster Bizarro. Not exactly like the pre-COIE version, but a character that's easier to interact with. Not reasonable, easier to interact with - he should be able to carry on a conversation, even though it'd be full of his backwards logic. If a Biz' story is just "stop the monster," you may as well bring Titano back.

#49 Posted by AtPhantom (14521 posts) - - Show Bio

@cbishop: I never saw Bizzaro as anything more than comic relief, to be honest.

#50 Posted by cbishop (8144 posts) - - Show Bio

@AtPhantom said:

@cbishop: I never saw Bizzaro as anything more than comic relief, to be honest.

Oh, agreed, but what I'm saying is that he doesn't have to be. You've got an alien with skewed logic and power on par with Superman... and an entire planet of beings just like him backing him up. Bizarro (and Htrae) should be a threat, even if it's a slightly comical threat - perhaps a threat that would be comical, if it wasn't so dangerous. Sort of like Mxy', but you can't make him disappear for 90 days.

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