For a long time ago,I'm have a BIGGER question for superman/Kryptonian，when I'm first reading superman comic book,Since the Silver Age later, Bronze Age, DC changed the Kryptonian physical concept,a superman would be stronger than a superwoman LIKE OUR NORMAL STRONGER THAN NORMAL WOMAN

yes,This is what I do not understand

They realize the inherent contradictions of the basic super hero concept from a scientific perspective. So the power balance between Superman and Supergirl or Wonder Woman, for that matter, is kept deliberately ambiguous because the writers know that a lot of us find it exciting to imagine that the superhero strength balance might actually be in favor of the female due to some natural female capacity for greater super powers, even in a world where the "normal" human strength balance averages the other way.

The laws of physics do not apply in comic books. No matter how anyone attempts to explain the super powers of characters like Superman or Supergirl scientifically, they are all impossible. Therefore, anyone can decide what level of power any character is capable of to suit their whims.

The only reason Superman is expected to be stronger than Supergirl is because "normal" men are expected to be stronger than "normal" women. But if these "super" beings are able to defy the laws of physics by flying through space, travel through time, move planets, carry ships through the air, use their "super" breath in outer space to destroy a solar system ... et-cetera ... then why should the "normal" male-female strength ratio have any meaning?

Well, some people told me that Superman is stronger because of his absorb more solar energy, but in fact, in the Silver Age, "solar energy" concept does not exist, the"absorb more solar energy so more stronger" concept, from the bronze era began, did not exist before

Who can tell me when Superman is a despised us physics (fly, moving planets, superbreath to destroy the solar system) Why do we still use our physical concepts to think about him?

There a lot of people belive SUPERMAN IS STRONGER because HE WAS A MAN,not BECAUSE HE HAS MORE SOLAR ENERGY,so,let us think about,if Supergirl has more solar energy,I'm sure DC still let superman stronger than her,why?Because he was a MAN

" I think the average 28 year old male is likely to be stronger than a 16 year old female, no? That seems like a reasonable assumption to me"

from scott_lobdell,a superman writer,see,even he agree this points

It seems to be common, and even the writer himself agrees with this view, even we all know, is a comic book is just fantasy, unrestricted, but they are still belive a beyond physics charater, still use our physical point of view to compare

Is not it ridiculous?

This is a bit hard to read, but if I understand it correctly, my answer would be that:

First off, Superman has absorbed more solar energy than Supergirl. That's why he's stronger. Not because of who is female and who is male. If Supergirl absorbed the yellow sun longer, she would be more powerful. Age and gender has barely anything to do with it.

That said, and please know that I am not trying to be sexist here, the average 28-year-old man is stronger than the average 16-year-old woman. I'm not being sexist, it's just a fact. Can a 16-year-old woman be stronger? Yes, but on average, a 28-year-old man is more powerful. If it was a 16-year-old man, it would be the same.

The tragic destruction of the hero in mythology is a timeless theme. The essence of comic book mythology is the fine line between good and evil. Superman is destroyed over and over in the comics. He was Killed by "Doomsday," He is killed by Wonder Woman or Batman in "imaginary stories." He is killed and brought back to life to fight again - to win and lose again and again.

Usually, in the 'real' comics, he wins. Usually. But the writers of comics realized a long time ago that it's boring to have an omnipotent hero who wins over and over again. They realized that stories where the hero gets beaten are more interesting - as long as he eventually wins. But this envelope has been pushed further and further. What happens when the hero really loses? When his powers fail him? The worst case scenario.

Naturally, the "real" Superman will continue to win and lose and win in the end. The original Superman always won very easily - which was exciting when the concept was brand new ... but alternate realities being a staple of the comic book genre, asthere must be another reality where he always loses. What would that be like? At the least it would be "Ideologically sensitive."

I have placed a disclaimer with, basically, the above statement on many of my works on this site because I am aware that some fellow Deviantart-ists do not like to see their heroes destroyed. I can understand this, so I think it's fair to express that I'm aware of some of the issues issues some people might have with the themes explored in my work here. Certainly if one does work which is acknowledged to be "ideologically sensitive" then one must expect someone to be offended.

In particular, the destruction of an iconic male hero like Superman or Hercules by a female is ideologically sensitive because it challenges the normal assumption that males are naturally more powerful than females. This assumption is certainly backed up by physiological realities within our species, but in nature it is more often than not the exact opposite. Males of many species are weaker than females. So the principle of male superiority is not universal. Likewise, "good" and "evil" are not universal absolutes. Challenging and subverting such ideas can open ones mind to understanding opposing viewpoints. We all hold beliefs which are despised by someone, somewhere.

If the hero myth has any real value in our lives, it is that it is aspirational. But one persons hero is another persons nemesis. One persons devil is another persons saint. Recognizing this, as an artist I have chosen to explore my own struggle with the ramifications of exploding and redefining the male hero myth.

While the world struggles with societal upheavals, many of which are expressions of clashing religious and philosophical ideologies, artists may be moved to reflect on these struggles and address them in some form. I believe that at the root of most of the world's conflicts is the unresolved question of gender primacy. Most of the women in the world live in societies in which they are subject to laws made exclusively by males. Many of these laws are — and have long been — uniquely oppressive to women. One can argue that males are also subject to unfair laws, among which are those which require men to fight in wars while women are omitted from such duty, but let's not forget — it is a male power structure which is making these laws. This has been true for thousands of years, but may not have always been the case. Not every society from the beginning of our species has treated women as inferior and subject to male rule. As a male, I am troubled by the current state of affairs since I believe that women are, as a group, naturally superior to men. On an individual basis we all have our strengths and weaknesses ... all women are not "better" than all men, nor is the reverse true. But as groups, or classes, the case can be made for female superiority.

There is no natural reason why the entire class of men should be entitled to have dominion over the entire class of women, but this is the world in which we currently live, as long as most of the worlds' governments and corporations are primarily controlled by men. I believe there is actually a greater case to be made for the dominance of women, as a group, over men. This theme is at the root of the work I post here. Using the comic book mythos as a means of exploring the alternate reality of the transition from male to female dominance in society. Comic books are, of course, very simple. There is liberty in the comic book form to decide what is real and what is not. Anything is possible. It is a fantasy medium. So themes can be dealt with is simple terms. This is why physical conflict is so essential to comics. Characters engage in physical battles which represent deeper struggles. It can be cathartic, or it can be troubling. I find the thing that troubles one the most is the thing that must be faced head on, rather than avoided.

There is a lot of similarly themed work here on DiviantArt, and I won't presume to know the artists' motives for all of it, but as far as I'm concerned, it all really is an expression of a real effort to deal with a profound ideological state of affairs. Society is changing in striking ways as women achieve gains in some places while forces work to keep them down in others. The symbolism of the muscular female can be seen a number of ways. Is it merely pornography? It is real empowerment of the female? or is it something else? Muscles seem have been the symbol of maleness for a long time, but even in the work of Michelangelo the muscular female is ubiquitous. As a usurpation of an assumed 'exclusively male' domain, the muscle woman presents a real threat to notions of masculine supremacy and thus, patriarchy.

Years ago it was unheard of for female comic book characters to have defined musculature. Look at the comics up until the 1970's and you won't see any female characters with flexed biceps and six-pack abs. Somewhere around the introduction of the character "Thundra" [link] in 1972, the really powerful, muscular female became OK. She was one of the first real challengers to the male hegemony on muscle-power as she easily out-muscled the Thing. Once the door was opened, it became less and less taboo. It's interesting, though, that the most muscular female characters during that period were often villains, as if a muscular female had to be evil since she was a challenge to male norms. Thundra was interesting in that she was not really a villain at all, but a hero(ine) in her own right who was at odds with those male norms. It was brave of Stan Lee to introduce such a character - Thundra built on the strong female meme also explored by Marvel's Valkyrie, but differed from her in that she was not based on Norse mythology but on an imagined future on Earth in which females rule. DC comics explored the matriarchy theme a few years before in 1968 [link] in Adventure Comics wherein the female members of the Legion of Super Heroes are given enhanced powers by an evil matriarchal villain who wants them to kill the boys and take over. In that story, Supergirl realizes that she and the other girls are being controlled by the villainess and thwarts her evil plan, saving the boys and returning everything to normal, in which the boys are the leaders and the girls, their inferiors. In 1968 it was still necessary for females who wanted to be more powerful than males as inherently evil.

The only real exception was Wonder Woman who was created by a man who was an avowed female supremacist [link]. But Wonder Woman was quickly established as a "safe" heroine because she was not mortal. Being a demi-goddess, her connection to ancient Greek mythology made it OK for her to almost as strong as Superman - or maybe stronger - or maybe not - but never clearly stronger. The ambiguity of her power undercut the message of female empowerment. Superman was well established as THE strongest hero of all. Wonder woman's powers could be construed as "magical" so even if she could equal Superman, it could always be dismissed. Also, she was never drawn as muscular until well after female muscles became acceptable. So while Wonder Woman was on some level a challenge, she hardly posed a real threat to patriarchal ideology in comics. Wonder Woman was an outlier until other true ballbusting females like Thundra came along. These days even the good-girls can be ballbusters ... [link] ... this would have been obscene and scandalous had it been published in 1968.

Maybe it was Billie Jean King defeating Bobby Rigg in 1973, or Helen Reddy singing "I Am Woman" in 1975, or the influence of Ms. Magazine founded in 1971, or "Pumping Iron II: The Women" in 1985, or any number of other game changing cultural moments, but the powerful female is here to stay. The muscular female is no longer a novelty but a real icon of heroism, and she can challenge the patriarchal norm while remaining heroic. And if muscular women can "challenge" male dominance in the world of comic book fantasy, then why can't they actually win?

My enligh is bad,So I'm post my friend points in here,I'm 100% agree him,just want to show your

That was strange,if superman are able to defy the laws of physics ,why should the "normal" male-female strength ratio have any meaning?

a 28 year old man is stronger than 16 year old man,this is OUR WORLD,but comic book is NOT REALLY,it's fantasy，so,tell me,why we needs use our worlds physical to be applicable fantasy story?

@powerwoman: while dc does not have all the same physics (speed force) they do have many similar. Kryptonians are similar to humans under a red sun. If we don't apply some real world physics than feats have no meanings. Hulk can lift over a 100 tons but if we don't use real our worlds physics it is meaningless. As for Superman and Supergirl. It is from solar rays. In the silver age it was a sexist time so it would make sense for him to be greater back then.

@bronze_surfer: Not all of silver age,it's just since silver age later(1968s)-bronze age,superman is stronger than supergirl because our worlds a man stronger than woman,before, this concept isnt exist

I did not understand，just because kryptonians like our humans body,so etc etc...

why?it's just a fantasy story,I can easily let a female kryptonian stronger than supemnan,that isnt need any reason,because they are not REALLY

It did not limit

I generally agree with this. Supporting this argument you could also point out that Superboy is also weaker than Superman for the same reason, he has had less exposure to solar energy .

Also, on the new 52 wasn't it established that Supergirl's ship circled the Sun many times before she reached earth soaking up the rays explaining why she instantly had powers that Superman did not have for years and raising the possibility that in the New 52 she may in fact be stronger than Superman as she had more intense exposure to the sun in this new universe?

@ohcrumbscomics: If new 52 supergirl so powerful,why in the superman 06,a robot superman easily beat her?

It's just because superman is MAN,supergirl is WOMAN,our WORLD,man stronger than woman,so,in the fantasy story,even we all know they are isnt true just fantasy,even we all know superman is able to defy the laws of physics,the writer and a tons people says superman is stronger not because he has more solar energy,is because he has MORE MUSCLE AND HE WAS A MAN

see?You do not believe me, you can Google, there are so many people has this idea

It is a social subconscious, a male hero better than female hero, which has happened more than once in the comic story

@powerwoman: Well I know nothing of the Bronze Age so I won't comment. Kryptonians under a red sun are almost identical to human beings. They can have kids with humans so their DNA has to be similar. Their is a femal kryptonian stronger than superman, power girl. If we do not use our physics than all feats are null and void. And it's not like their is a shortage of powerful woman in comics. Scarlet Witch, Infinity, Death, Wonder Woman, Supergirl, Powergirl, ect. Or maybe the writer wants superman stronger than Supergirl. Like how writers put she hulk stronger than Thing and Gray Hulk or Miss Martian above Martian Manhunter in TP

@bronze_surfer: I dont know what happened in the 1968s

but you can see,in the same time,wonder woman no any super-power

http://www.comicvine.com/wonder-woman-178-wonder-womans-rival/4000-109230/

It is very coincidental, because in 1968s, DC changed the physical concept ofKryptonian

1,Kryptonian is not a true invulnerability,(before any kryptonians is true invulnerability,they are even cant hurt each other)

2, a man stronger than women, like our(before isnt exist)

3,Superman has more experienced than supergirl(before isnt exist)

we can use our physics to feats but isnt needs think about superman and superwoman power would be different level like our world man stronger than woman,It is completely ignored because they are not normal people, they are super

@powerwoman: ok I agree with what you say so we will just have to use solar rays. And again their are female Heros who are stronger than makes. Chetta solod the JLA and was faster than flash

@bronze_surfer: If just because superman has more solar energy so he was stronger than supergirl,I'm no any complain

But why I'm creater this thread?

Because,Very sadly,there has a tons people,even superman of writer,they are think superman is stronger than supergirl is because he was a MAN

This also happens in comics history

scans from 1968s superman comic book

scan from bronze age

And this is from SILVER AGE,not silver age later

see?in the silver age,they generally did NOT take into account gender or even size differences. but since 1968s DC changed the physical concept of Kryptonian,and very coincidental,in the 1968s,same time DC changed wonder woman,wonder woman no long exist super-power anymore

Why?I dont know what happened in the 1968s,but I'm sure this is Serious macho and sexist

@powerwoman: well they were more sexist in the 60s not arguing that. But back then is not the same as now. The WW thing was to get more readers with a hip new version even though it was stupid. But when it comes down to it could it just be that the writer wants him to be stronger? Is their any real harm their? Hulk is stronger than she hulk and thor is stronger than thor girl. But they have reasons for them with hulk having more Gama radiation and thor girl being a human with a magic hammer. In the end now adays that does not generally go down that way. And it's not like their is a shortage of powerful female Heros. Look at scarlet witch she was a multiverseal threat.

I'm got some information from my friends

Supergirl in the new 52 seems to have been developed as, well, a genetic experiment. Given that yellow sunlight super-empowers Kryptonians and that she seems to have the ability to generate her own sunlight, Kara should theoretically be able to make herself however strong she feels she needs to be.

To be sure, though, this flash, which SEEMS to be the equivalent of yellow light generation, is her most ill-defined ability. I'm fairly certain current writers have changed its function from what it was originally intended to be.

3) PRE-52 (Jeph Loeb) Supergirl had an almost perfect set-up for being stronger than her cousin. I mean almost PERFECT. At least initially. It follows sci-fi and "real-world" conclusions amazingly well. To understand it, however, you HAVE to know something of resistance training and how gravity works on the high school physics level. If you don't know it at least on that level, it's an absolute waste of time discussing it.

Seems like a reasonable assumption to me, too.

I think the average 28 year old male is likely to be stronger than a 16 year old female.

Now, where I DIFFER from you, is that I do NOT believe that EVERY 28 year old male is stronger than every 16 year old female. For I've tested the strength of 28 year old males and 16 year old females at the place where I work.

And I've found that, though the majority of 28 year old males are, indeed, stronger than most 16 year old females, there are in fact, some 16 year old females that are stronger than some 28 year old males.

Frankly, I don't think you've seen many strong females in your time. It might be worth a few moments of my time to show you some women that do, in fact, possess physical strength, and more, at that, than the "AVERAGE" male human.

See what you think of the following, for instance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr2QOUHyacw

Might be an idea to make a small collection of these for you.

You need to see that, even IN the real world, there are many cases where INDIVIDUAL women are stronger than average, stronger than most people think of other women as being, and, yes, stronger than the average man.

Moreover, you CAN'T always just look at them and "tell" that they are that much stronger than average.

See what you think of the following.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDVCKEPg85I

My previous 2 messages dealt mainly with making a supported argument.

If you want to convince neutral people, you need to make arguments backed up by good reasoning and evidence from the comic books themselves.

You mentioned sunlight for instance. Superman has had more exposure to sunlight so he's stronger than Supergirl, right? That's the "reasoning" for him being stronger?

But, when we examine the comics themselves, do we find that to be true?

HAS Superman indeed had more sun exposure than Supergirl?

Or did Jeph Loeb himself actually have SUPERGIRL receive more years of sun exposure than her cousin Clark?

You've never thought to ask this, have you? Yet such is how you would go about MAKING the case that DC has been acting rather sexist, ignoring the basic in-story premises that make their characters strong or not strong.

Example: Superman/Batman #9:

"

You don't know that Krypton was a high gravity world.

You don't know that Supergirl grew up ON the planet Krypton in Jeph Loeb and Joe Kelly's reality. You don't understand that, given Superman grew up on the comparatively LIGHT gravity planet of Earth, he developed on a world where everything offered relatively little resistance to him, at least compared to Kara.

Kara, by contrast, had to be VERY strong, simply to move around on her home planet. Stronger by far than any average Earth girl.

There's no way around it. Krypton had something like 30x the gravity field of Earth. Meaning things were 30x heavier. Including people. Kara weighs, what? 100 pounds on Earth? On Krypton she'd had to have weighed nearly 3,000 pounds. It would be like an Earth girl having had to have trained herself by walking around with a carframe strapped to her back, or moving around like that woman Vivian Vives you saw in my video hiking uphill while carrying a man"

so,that just strange,if supergirl has more solar energy,rulerofthisuniverse tell me,supergirl should be more stronger Age and gender has barely anything to do with it.

But the true is,just like my point,even supergirl could has more solar energy,DC still make superman stronger than her

why?just because superman was a MAN?

That's why I hesitate to offend the writer, and his fans, I have to know the answer:

DC is sexist again?

I'm got more point from my friend

The Dwayne McDuffie interview reminds that comics, at least as DC produces them are largely a white male power fantasy. Not so much place historically for non-whites or women to intrude on that, in-story or 4th wall.

You're trying to understand why Supergirl must be weaker than Superman.

I'm telling you why. Dwayne McDuffie is telling you why.

Superman is a white male. Supergirl is not.

You can argue "No! Superman is an alien! He is not white or any Earth Race!"

And that would be you deliberately misunderstanding me and denying reality.

It would be like the fans who say "Superman is stronger because he's absorbed more yellow solar light energy", when, in point of fact, all indications are that Supergirl has absorbed more and process yellow light energy more efficiently.

It has nothing to do with that. That is merely the "reasoning" that people give.

YOU merely feel that.

Or think you "sense" that from people.

I, however?

I not only feel and sense that in the way that you do, but I can show evidence that the story elements are on Supergirl's side, and exactly what issues you can find the information in.

In some cases, I can even show you that, when such is pointed out to people, they merely shift to a different point, maintaining the basic stance that Superman is stronger. Maybe they come up with another reasoning they think might be convincing, maybe not.

You're wondering why the fans you're encountering in the forums give such support to Superman?

I'm telling you why that is so.

So is Dwayne McDuffie.

Again, DC comics, for the most part, as McDuffie tells you, produces a white MALE power fantasy.

Supergirl, being white, but not male, is subject to similar discrimination.

She's white, but she's not male. So she too gets shafted from reaching full potential.

Same with Wonder Woman.

With Supergirl you might hear something like, "Well, Supergirl is Superman's younger female cousin. Of course Superman is stronger! That's the way it normally is in real life!"

Actually, in real life, any girl faced with the enormous physical challenges Mark Waid, Jeph Loeb, and Joe Kelly presented Kara (high gravity Krypton, where everything weighs 30 times as much and which was under a red sun so she had NO superpowers to help her out) would be the equivalent of a strength-trained athlete.

She would, in fact, be expected to be stronger than a 28 year old counterpart, male OR female.

She'd HAVE to be, if only to walk around from point A to point B.

But, as pointed out before, you don't know the history of post-Crisis Kara.

So you cannot recognize this.

And you cannot understand why I brought up any of the points I did, even as you tell me you do.

It would mean nothing me bringing up say, Legion of Super-Heroes #23, where the Legion needs flight rings to compensate for lacking the strength needed to walk around on high-gravity Rokyn, while Kara runs around a palace in a city of that same planet thinking she has just emerged from some strange nightmare.

She's strong enough to do this while the Legion members are not.

She's strong enough to do this EVEN THOUGH THIS IS IN A RED SUN SYSTEM and she has been stripped of superpowers, because this is where she grew up.

Her muscles are used to providing the force needed to overcome gravity. It doesn't matter that she now weighs at least several hundred pounds, and that the legs of any Earth person would likely buckle under the weight. She, probably UNLIKE a depowered Clark, can handle it.

You've got to ignore this if you're a writer to make the claim that Superman is stronger. You've got to instead be listening to an editorial letting you know in ways direct and indirect that you won't be allowed to publish a book that makes some fact like that too clear.

Or change the history.

(I can show you where this was done, too, if you're curious, or at least show you what magazines to look in.)

Something, anything other than admit the logical conclusions to be drawn from your own origin stories and conventions.

that just amazing.i'm hope there guys can read them

Why superman is stronger?just because he has more solar energy?because he was a MAN?why he was a white MAN?

I have to say I was frustrated, I've got the answer I want to know

Because I know that even though I know why Superman must be stronger of reason, I can not change anything

It's really frustrating

wonder woman has been shown to be near superman's level most of the time,she is supposed to be and she is most of the time except for some bad writtin moments,but sexis is a real problem in comics,the fact that most females are weaker than their maler versions prove it,it doesn't matter that they explain it somehow,the fact that they search for an explanation of why they are weaker is sexist,if they are a female version of a male character,why can't they be just as powerful as the males?,why there has to be a reason to make the female vsersions weaker?,why can't they be on par?.

@gokuwarrior: Yes,people always say "superman has better feats"

but they are dont think why?why superman is better than supergirl or wonder woman?

Superman has more feats than either Wonder Woman or Supergirl.

DC generally doesn't give female characters good strength showings.But why?if they are want to that isnt a trouble for them,but they are cant do it?

There's no reason to assume Diana and Kara CAN'T perform on the level of Superman, however.

Thank you for understanding

I think superman should be stronger than supergirl is not because he has more solar energy

Superman is white MAN, superman cant became yellow race or Negro,why?

Like Dwayne McDuffie points,superman is white male power fantasy. so he not yellow race or negro,supergirl is white but she is a woman not MAN

"Superman is stronger because he's absorbed more yellow solar light energy"when such is pointed out to people, they merely shift to a different point, maintaining the basic stance that Superman is stronger. Maybe they come up with another reasoning they think might be convincing, maybe not.

The real reason superman more stronger than superwoman isn't he have more solar energy, it is just an excuse, the real reason is he was white man power fantasy.supergirl isnt

Just think about,every time "superman vs supergirl"

there some people would be says super man is stronger because:

Superman fans:"superman has more solar energy"

"But Jeph Loeb himself actually have SUPERGIRL receive more years of sun exposure than her cousin"

Superman fans:"superman is stronger because he was 28 years old muscle man"

"but if these "super" beings are able to defy the laws of physics,why should the "normal" male-female strength ratio have any meaning?,and in fact supergirl "Throughout her most of life, living in high-gravity planet,she should be very strong"

Superman fans:"Ok,but scientific laws don't really work in the context of comic books"

"that why supergirl isnt weaker than superman just because superman is MAN"

Superman fans:"Superman has better feats,so he was stronger"

"why superman should be have better feats?why DC generally doesn't give female characters good strength showings?"

Superman fans:"Because superman is stronger!!!so he has more feats"

"Throughout the majority, most powerful charater isnt have very good feats,like doomdays,darkseid,orion,lobo,shazam,black adam,but the most of people belive they are was superman strength level,why?"

Superman fans:"I'm sorry but nothing you do will convince me,SUPERMAN IS STRONGER!!"

@powerwoman said:

Look, when I've responded to you I've been nice, but I'm not gong to let you say the same bigoted crap that people keep spouting to demonize a specific groups, namely men and whites.

Superman was never a "white male power fantasy" Every word of that is idiotic to anyone who has a knowledge of Superman's origins and isn't looking at things through the bigoted view point of racial and gender ideologues. Superman is, if anything, a fantasy about being the victim and wanting someone to protect you when bad shit is happening. It's fantasy about being able to trust someone whole heartedly and not fearing that they're going to turn and betray you. He's white and male because they just happened to create him as such and the reason feminist indoctrinated twits call comics power fantasies is because they like to demonize anything male and project that anything male, and in particular white male, is all about subjugation and power over others.

This isn't the case on many levels. Just looking at comics and going over the origins and histories involved only idiot would think that it's a fantasy about dominating anything, but if you were to have to make it about dominating something it would be themselves. Self control, self mastery. Of course you wouldn't want to go there because then we're talking about culture enforcing male gender roles which as we know from feminism that type of thinking is wrong and bigoted. Likewise you could then turn that around on the female because most women in comics are fairly nuts, anti-authoritian misandrists, especially in the new52. So before we discuss the power levels of a female vs male kryptonian you have to account for all the anti-male sentiments in the DCnU currently, but getting back to male characters and whether they are or aren't power fantasies. More often than not they are simply not unless you consider over coming personal challenges as being power fantasies, and by power fantasies I mean what feminists and people who say this crap mean, which is oppressing others. Batman overcomes fear and crime and his personal limits. Green Lantern overcomes fear, and again, his personal limit. Aquaman overcomes his family problems. Wonder Woman overcomes her ignorance of man. Superman overcomes the temptation to be exactly what you are claiming he is.

Now to Superman vs Supergirl...

She's Younger = weaker

She's less experience = weaker

She's female = physically weaker

She's waaaay outside of her depth on Earth = Weaker

She's spent less time in yellow sun light = weaker

The events you are talking about was surprise attack = weaker

Nanite Superman was transfering pain and regening which makes Supergirl look weaker

Powergirl and Supergirl existing in the same universe and being closer together was very distinctly shown to make her weaker

On all accounts Supergirl would be weaker than Superman and with all these things piled together she would appears to be extremely weak in comparison. While the female part could play a role in that weakness it is only 1 small part.

If you are so ignorant that you have to fall back on sexist and racist bigotry I think you need to rethink your position, because it shows that you do not have a valid nor sound argument and/or you are a bigot who's thinking is being blinded by your bigotry. I don't think you want to be a bigot and I don't think you think that what you are saying is bigoted and I think that if you did think you were being such that you'd change what you were saying. It is quite apparent that in this case you are extremely in the wrong and so the only reason I can see for you continuing to hold that there is something wrong with how Supergirl stacks up to Superman is a matter for bigotry, and not factual and logical analysis of the situation which is why you fell back to the nonsensical trope of "white male power fantasy" that gender/race ideologues say about Heavy Metal, Comics, Games, Movies, and if it weren't for the fact that they're so much older they'd say it about books and poetry.

@durakken: Wow,you not read these points,is from my friend,I'm just agree his points, What you say is too harsh

back thread,wait,who is sexist and racist?who?me?that was funny,where you got I'm a sexist and racist?In fact, I'm trying to oppose gender discrimination in here,did you see it?

oh,yes,she is young,she is FEMALE,so she is weak

I cant agree it,tell me,why?why FEMALE Kryptonian is weaker than Superman?because our world man stronger than woman is common sense？

you not read my posts,sorry

@powerwoman said:

People who are younger have less muscle mass, especially those who have not worked out, which she hasn't

In general, Women are weaker than men. It's basic biology.

Reality and facts is not Sexism.

Regardless of where someone is from if they have the same physical structure as people of earth they follow the same rules as humans in terms of their basic biology.

You think it's discrimination because they are not the same strength but you're ignoring the fact that Powergirl is clearly smarter than Clark and So would Supergirl. You also ignore the fact that Supergirl has shown to have more powers than Superman. You think that 2 people, even if they were the same strength there wouldn't be a clear power imbalance in the given situation and so what you are asking for Supergirl to not have to have the experiences as Superman and yet still have the same fighting ability.

You are not looking for non-discrimination. You are looking for superiority.

Not only that but it's readily apparent that I gave 8 reasons why she would come off as being extremely weak in that situation and you focused on the gender based one. Go figure. You are also only basing this on Superman 6. Have you read the first few issues of Supergirl? Supergirl was punting Superman around the world. You don't see that as Superman coming off weak? By your argument that would be inequality against men, especially given that this version was actually Superman and was more experienced... oh and lets not forget that Superman during the fight your talking about was in pain. Isn't that interesting? A woman beating on a man with the man unable to fight back even though according to you he is physically stronger.

@durakken: How can you talking about" Reality and facts"?!

Our reality has superman?you sure?THEY ARE NOT REALLY,it is fantasy stories,It is no limit，supergirl can stronger than superman or as strong as superman I'm dont see what's wrong,I'm say again again, if these "super" beings are able to defy the laws of physics by flying through space, travel through time, move planets, carry ships through the air, use their "super" breath in outer space to destroy a solar system ... et-cetera ... then why should the "normal" male-female strength ratio have any meaning?did you see it?no,you ignore

How can you talking about superman fight to supergirl?superman isnt want to fight,he was hold back,but superman 06 is different,supergirl not hold back,and that not a fight,it;s just massacre

You got a good points!DC let supergirl has more powerful than superman,but wait

Why?Why not supergirl as strong as superman?Why DC give supergirl a different power than superman?

Because superman is MAN,He must be physically more powerful than supergirl,supergirl must be weaker than superman because she is WOMAN,supergirl new power isnt mean she is more powerful than superman,just different,In addition, my view is not only for New 52,it's Pre-crisis,Pre-52,you need read all my of posts not just one by one

I was against gender discrimination,you call me is sexist I'm really feel strange

@powerwoman: Generally speaking. they don't break the laws of physics in their universe. Super powers are meta abilities, mutations which change biology or a result of slightly different biology that is usually explained. Kryptonian abilities are known how they roughly work and so we can say that some things work and others don't.

Superman was in pain during Superman 06, caused by the strikes that Supergirl was hitting Nanite Superman with. This pain is a direct transfer and we have no reason to believe they be weaker if given directly to Superman. This means that no, Superman is not "weaker" than Supergirl. It means that an attack by Supergirl on Superman, by an incredibly weakened Supergirl is more than enough to hurt Superman greatly beyond even other male Kryptonians... So again you are wrong.

You're being sexist because you are treating people of different sex differently. If both character were male, Supergirl would still come off as being extremely weak in that issue due to all those things I pointed out other than sex. Even if only experience were the issue Supergirl would still be the weaker of the two.

And that is ignoring that noone will ever being more powerful than Superman in comics. People may argue it. People may even have a convincing argument and explanation as to why character x is Stronger than Superman. Even if you accept it logically and everything, if you were to ever see it in an official comic people would likely consider it a bad comic and not portraying Superman properly. This isn't a gender thing in this case. It's an Iconic thing and a hero-worship thing.

@durakken: I'm cant agree it,in the fantasy stories,everthing is possible,it isnt need limit,why? because they are not true,not really,I can easily let supergirl stronger than superman ,what's wrong?No matter how I imagine that it is legal, because they are just fantasy

I'm just cant see superman 06 scans,This has nothing to reason,in the scans,we just see "superman" overkill to beat supergirl,I'm dont like these scan

How can me sexist?!I'm jus sick superman is stronger than supergirl because he was MAN,I'm just think they are is equal,this is sexist???

I just hope that they are equal,Not superman stronger than supergirl,not supergirl stronger than superman,My points for some superman fans,if hope supergirl is equal to superman in power level is "sexist"

oh,yes,I'm sexist

@powerwoman:

Stop being willfully ignorant. There is a context to these things and it matters. If you don't think so then you're simply not worth talking to.

I have pointed out several reasons for it, all of which have nothing to do with sex. You are the one who can't see past sex and you wish to treat 2 clearly different circumstances that results in one being weaker and one being stronger as about sex when it's not. Because you want equal outcome from a clearly unequal circumstance that means you want Supergirl to be artificially, wrongfully, made to be able to be equal when she isn't.

Let me see if I can make you understand this using an analogy.

Bruce Wayne went through dedicated training for 10 years with masters of hundreds of Martial Arts and other skills. He built up his skills and he created a suit and uses technology that gives him an edge over people. And then he has fought crime for 5 years day in and day out.

Barbara Gordon takes a Karate classes on the weekend for 5 years with people that likely couldn't even put up a fight against the people Batman fights as canon fodder every day. Barbara sews together costume with no other gear and doesn't know the first thing about how to do any crime fighting.

So then Barbara goes out as Batgirl, freaks out and encounters Batman after 3 days of freaking out, running around like a lunatic. According to you Batgirl should be able to fight Batman to a stalemate... That is clearly ridiculous. What you are asking for is that Barbara Gordon be given the fighting prowess of someone with 15 years more experience than her and is much more knowledgable and in control of the situation and has better gear. What you are doing here is saying that Women don't have to work as hard as Men to become their equals. It's sexist on 2 fronts... 1) That men are just stupids sacks of crap that can't do anything really and 2) Women are lazy and just don't care to put the effort in to do anything.

Do you understand where the inequality is in the thing you are asking for now?

@durakken: What is ignorant?This is your personality?If you do not respect my point of view, I want you to leave my thread

You completely wrong

I'm never say supergirl has experience like superman,My points it's supergirl as powerful as superman in raw power,but she isnt have superman's experience,so,yes,if they are fight,superman would be has more superiority,but more experience not mean more stronger,they are different,I'm just think supergirl is as strong as superman,as for experience,superman got it

@powerwoman said:

As someone who actually has fought before, yes experience does translate to strength, because you know what to do with it. Cassandra Cain who has more experience and knowledge about fighting could hit Superboy and he'd feel it even though he is clearly physically stronger than her and she is obviously physically weaker.

You are willfully ignorant because you are dismissing information so that you can continue your nonsensical bigotry.

@durakken: What is nonsensical bigotry???????

Why she must be weaker?superman could be has more experience to control his power to fight,supergirl isnt can control her power and Inexperienced to fight,so superman can own her,but why superman is stronger than her?give me a reason

is you nonsensical bigotry.not me,you think superman should be stronger than supergirl,What is the experience, just your excuse，

If that's what you're saying ignorance again, I ask you to leave my thread

I do not welcome you

@powerwoman: If you can't be bothered to read and listen then you are only proving that you are closed minded and are willfully ignorant. I've already listed several points as to why Supergirl is not the same power level as Superman.

If we say their strength is due to gravity then she is weaker due to less muscle mass. You can visually see she has less muscle mass and even assuming she worked out regularly it only would have kept her healthy where as Superman was raised on a farm and long before his power developed he would have worked that farm so again without without sex she is weaker in this case.

If we say that their strength is due to the yellow sun she is weaker due to Clark being in it longer and being in his prime when his cells would be at their maximum absorption rate. Again she would be weaker.

I actually know a counter argument to what I said, but I'm not going to share it, just because you should do research before you run your mouth and should know this argument and should present it rather than saying it all about sex discrimination.

And no, You're are ignorant. You opened your mouth. You spoke stupidly. And you don't get to tell people not to tell you how ignorant you are when people have been patient and kind and respectful of you and yet you continue to be a loud mouth and cause problems for people. You either listen and accept criticism when you choose to say shit or you leave, get off the mic, remove yourself. You don't get to dictate people's involvement in a conversation because they disagree with you and they call you on your willful ignorance (that's what it's called when someone informs you of something that is important to what you are saying and you ignore it because it contradicts what you are saying) and bigotry (which is what it is called when you believe something, generally about individuals of a group or an event, and despite being presented with contradictory information about that individual or event you persist in acting as though what you are saying is right). You don't like it. Too bad. That's Freedom of Expression and that is what being mature is all about. You messed up. You don't like how people treat you when you mess up. You leave, not everyone else.

@durakken: You're a serious rude, disgusting people，You totally do not respect my point of view, you just say your own opinion again and again

Your opinion is pure useless，let tell you what's your wrong,

Supergirl grew up ON the planet Krypton in Jeph Loeb and Joe Kelly's reality., given Superman grew up on the comparatively LIGHT gravity planet of Earth, he developed on a world where everything offered relatively little resistance to him, at least compared to Kara.

Kara, by contrast, had to be VERY strong, simply to move around on her home planet. Stronger by far than any average Earth girl.

There's no way around it. Krypton had something like 30x the gravity field of Earth. Meaning things were 30x heavier. Including people. Kara weighs, what? 100 pounds on Earth? On Krypton she'd had to have weighed nearly 3,000 pounds. It would be like an Earth girl having had to have trained herself by walking around with a carframe strapped to her back, or moving around

HAS Superman indeed had more sun exposure than Supergirl?

I'm surprised you are so rude and stupid and ignorant

@powerwoman:

So are you going with Light give them Strength or Gravity differences give them strength?

In the case of light. Clark grew up on a farm with no powers. They didn't manifest till some time in his teens or early 20s. Given that his body didn't become fat then it's obvious that he got the same work out as or more so than Kara. Also as far as the image above. That's from Pre-Flashpoint so it doesn't apply.

In the case of Gravity while it is true that the same objects would weigh less from what little we have seen of krypton and the report that they are an advanced civilization we can conclude that most of what they carried around was super-light stuff and so the difference in weight she carried around all day wouldn't actually be all that great for someone like Kara and then you have to factor that coming to Earth and having your powers sapped if we're talking gravity based that means she would also be thrown off by her body trying to adapt to the Earth's low gravity which generally causes bone and muscle lose... which probably has lots of due to being in space for 30 years and then she wasn't in the best condition with the whole running around without sleep for several days straight.

As for calling me rude. Good for you. I'm happy to be rude to people who say bigoted ignorant things. It has at least got you started talking about relevant things.

@durakken: Is you first rude,not me,If you want to earn respect, at least civility to talking with me,you isnt need Insult me，so,you insult me,I'm insult you too,no one is ignorant,

As to your argument, I can accept，But this is not the same，For example, I can not understand why in a fantasy story,they are able to defy the laws of physics,why should the "normal" male-female strength ratio have any meaning.this is my core of the question,for example，why superman is most powerful hero not supergirl is most powerful hero in title？why superman must be stronger supergirl must be weaker?Why superman must be has more solar energy supergirl isnt?why superman must be has more feats supergirl isnt?

You do not understand my question，Yes, your argument is valid, which may explain Superman still more powerful

But my question is:Why?If wirter want to supergirl is more powerful that not a trouble for them,but they are didnt

Why?In Think, why Superman was originally designed as male rather than female？Because Even in the fantasy story, men better than women?

see it,That is simply not ignorant, I discuss in our society as a whole

blame the plot and the fact that she is an offshoot, in a way that batman will always outshine his offshoots

what is " offshoot"?

It is said that she is just a pale imitation of superman version?

This is what I do not understand，why supergirl should be superman cheap imitation, rather than Superman imitate Supergirl?

Some one say it is ignorance, which is actually a reflection of our society, sexist, men better than women's subconscious,think about,we are has superman,batman,hulk,spider-man,then has supergirl,batgirl,she-hulk,spider-girl,not we has supergirl,batgirl,she-hulk,spider-girl,then has superman,batman,hulk,spider-man

why?

@powerwoman:

Superman is white because he was created in a place where being white is the majority and further his origin had him grow up in a predominantly white area. Further still, had he been black he probably would have been seen as racist simply due to the whole slave working on farm thing, but ignoring that there was still racism and there was propaganda and such going on in the 30s. Having him be anything but white would have killed his popularity and likely wouldn't have gone very far... And while if he was black he may have been unpopular i doubt had he been asian that he would have even made it to publishing.

Superman is male, quite simply, because males are the soldiers and the protectors. The fantasy behind Superman was to be saved and rescued. I'm sorry, but women simply do not fit that bill. Yes there have been brave and courageous heroic women in history, but the general consensus is an image of a male, especially if you look at history and almost all fictional writings...if not for men being brave and more heroic in general you'd have to also point out that by nature women are very self preserving. This is not a bad thing in general, in fact it is very good for us as a species in the past, but it's not something that screams that they're going to rescue you and be loyal. In fact it's quite the opposite so, especially if you're looking at 2 men coming up with the idea that likely didn't know of any women that could even remotely save them from anything and wouldn't for the most part if they could. It sounds mean spirited and all, but that's just biology and a thing women have to deal with getting past. Some do. Others are rampant about it.

The reason why they have to follow rules in fiction is... hard to explain. Basically they don't have to follow any rules, but the point of any art and especially story telling is to connect on some level with the viewer. The best way to connect with the viewer is to keep things recognizable and understandable. The more something strays from what the viewer knows the less likely they'll be able to connect. So while technically anything is possible, the reality is that only a bad writer would do something like throw anything but the bare minimum of rules out and any rules that do get thrown out need a fairly good explanation that is passable to have a really good story.

The reason Supergirl will never be above Superman is Superman is the original...basically.

Could a writer make supergirl stronger than superman? Certainly. Could they go back and forth? Yup because their power levels are not static. Will it ever be the case that Supergirl will beat Superman severely or without trickery? Nope, not unless the world falls under a complete feminist regime, but then if that were to happen comics and most of the male population wouldn't exist... But the reason it won't happen is simply because Superman is the original and I'm not talking about the original Kryptonian I'm talking original Superhero. The only way you'd get something like that is if DC decides to flip the script and make Supergirl a villain and then you have an epic showdown much akin to The Death of Superman... but the likelihood of that happening any time in the near future is nil, and practically nil for the foreseeable future of the human race...

@durakken: Got it

man is more applicable,ok..

I got it,I'm not say supergirl is stronger than superman,I mean,just equal to everything,not just power,experience,I'm not talking about New 52 supergirl or Pre-52 supergirl or Pre-crisis supergirl,sorry,my enligh is bad,There are language barriers,sorry for argue

That my points,becuase our world is Male-dominated,so superman always more powerful than supergirl,but if our world is Female-dominated，then supergirl should be more powerful,right?

this is my points,In fact, I know that this is futile complaint，I'm superman/supergirl fans,I would prefer to see that they are equal，that why I'm like Pre-crisis supergirl,at least in the bronze age before,she is as strong as superman

In fact, I know that no matter what time, Superman is always more powerful，but can let supergirl close to him?I dont want to see superman one shotted her,I dont like superman 06,even it's has reason,like supergirl is already severely weakene,I'm just dont want to see superman overkill to beat her,can you understanding

anyway,sorry for My anger，I just want to discuss this topic

@durakken: Wait,wait

Superman is male, quite simply, because males are the soldiers and the protectors. The fantasy behind Superman was to be saved and rescued. I'm sorry, but women simply do not fit that bill. Yes there have been brave and courageous heroic women in history, but the general consensus is an image of a male, especially if you look at history and almost all fictional writings

If so,why DC creater supergirl charater?they are isnt need her,Since this is a fantasy story, they created her, should be at least equal to or close toSuperman (defy the laws of physics)

I dont like superman much stronger than supergirl,if so,they are isnt should be creater a Female of superman,For me, since they created her, they should be responsible and should not do with our bodies criteria

If you keep going on with these tirades, you're gonna end up banned.

Just because Superman is stronger then Supergirl doesn't make her weak or useless.

And why is a character's power so important anyway? It's not like it has any effect on how compelling a character they are.

@powerwoman: first off. The world is not Male dominated. At the time Superman was created the world was closer to be equal than it is now. As time has passed it has been increasingly more and more Female dominated. It's really is quite apparent once you start thinking about how the world is set up, the history of the world not told of by feminists, and etc. Generally speaking feminists tend to present women in horrible conditions or problems women face but ignore the male side which tends to reveal a worst situation.

So no if the world was female dominated Superman wouldn't be female. While Superman is a paternal fantasy he is generally what women tend to say that they want in men and so he'd result the same way. Males being protectors is part of what makes them attractive.

Why Supergirl then? Feminism again. They started putting pressure on comics and so comics started introducing full families around this time. Not to mention it's an interesting concept and I'm sure i could find a hero's journey symbolic reason for her existence.

I don't care either way, but really it is dependent upon your view of kryptonian biology. For all we know, if you follow that all kryptonians develop different powers and to different degrees then hypothetically she could be far stronger or far weaker just by happen stance. As to why a writer would do that it depends on the context of the story.

@comicstooge: I'm just want to know why superman should be stronger,what's wrong? I want to know the reasons for it,supergirl is weak,if you found superman comic book,superman beat her almost like massacre，It is a shame，IF She exists only to prove that Superman is more superior, I would rather she died again,I dont want to see my favorite charater got shame

Thanks,I'm agree it,but since 1968s DC changed the physical concept of Kryptonian,superman could be stronger than supergirl,and that never changed again

far stronger?lol,we all know that never could be happened,so what's you think about supergirl?pre-52 or new 52

There's no shame in losing to Superman at all (unless you're Darkseid). Superman beats her because he has more experience, has absorbed more sunlight, is a better fighter etc. It has nothing to do with the fact she happens to be a woman. Superboy would get destroyed against Superman too.

Saying that "Supergirl exists only to make Superman superior" is like saying Robin exists only to make Batman better. It simply isn't true. Just because she's not as powerful, doesn't mean she's not useful.

And if it makes you feel any better, she can beat Superboy.

Can I ask a question?

superman absorbed more sunlight,but In the Pre-52,look like supergirl absorbed more sunlight than superman.....so,Why DC Changed this concept？

We all see that she gets to HUGE downplay

Bro,read my posts,I dont want to see supergirl beat superman or superman beat supergirl,and i dont want to see supergirl beat superboy

Batman isnt much stronger than Robin,he just better than Robin,Give him time and experience, one day he could do as good as Batman

Clark has been up directly in front of (and sometimes directly inside) the sun. That would certainly suggest he's absorbed greater quantities. Not to mention Kara's sunlight in her pod was obviously synthesized and might not even be as powerful.

Then what do you mean? I'm having a hard time understanding. Would you mind explaining?

Batman is a lot stronger then Robin, currently. But yeah, given time, any of the Robins could surpass Bruce, but then again, Kara could possibly surpass Clark, given time.

@comicstooge: might not even be as powerful...it's not a Strong evidence

For me,superman and supergirl they are not normal people,they are is super,This may be different than batman and robin

In fact, they can be equal, why not？think about,if superman is weaker than supergirl in the comic book,I'm sure there has a tons superman fans would be strongly complain and hate it,but for supergirl,Not too many people complain it or direct Ignore