Brawler without much form. Basic moves, punches, grapples, the usual. And martial arts makes him look out of character anyway.

Superman needs to have a more boxer/wrestler fighting to give him more of that "all-american hero" vib. I just think be needs to be more pronounced with his boxing fighting style. He needs to put his hands up and get that slouch in his back instead of him always in that cross armed pose. Give him an Ali style of fighting and add a little bit of Tyson in there. I want to see him slipping jabs and ducking right hooks do a dimpsy roll and come across with that hey maker. Also, I want some speed. Rearing back for 20 seconds before you give them a straight cross is getting really old Clark. Just punch the dude and punch him fast. Don't give him an inch to work with

Honestly, he should make more use of those Kryptonian fighting styles, but it should be a rare thing.

Dunno what style you'd call it, but it'd be top tier super martial arts level.

He has anti-gravity, super-speed movements, reflexes and mental processing, heat vision, super-breath, invulnerability etc, it's a whole different ball-game. Street level martial arts would be worse than useless, because he hardly ever takes on things with the appropriate physics and stats measurable to his own, and if he did, foot-work and all those normal human things would be completely irrelevant. They're not what he needs. Kryptonian martial arts are presumably useful only if they were designed for super-powered kryptonians.

"Martial arts" in the conventional understanding are redundant with his powers. It's just a 'what actions are needed to achieve effect' martial arts that he practises or should practise. He's a master of superhero arts or "super-powered martial arts" or "Superman fighting style".

I have this same problem with Batman. He shouldn't be studying 147 different normal martial arts to use, he should be developing the martial art of Batjitsu, because his battlefield and his stats and weapons are (so often) entirely different.

(But yeah, most of the time "punching like a boss" and normal physical struggle etc is perfectly viable. Superman's "fighting style" for me goes beyond that though (if he's being challenged); tends to operate on a different level. Making use of the environment in creative ways, reverse-engineering on the fly, studying opponent and figuring out and exploiting weaknesses on the spot, stuff like that. Basically, I look to Superman for creative solutions.)

I can't disagree with you more, SuperMudz.

Even if Superman's movements and attacks are enhanced to a level greater than MOST people, there are still several people who can match him. Hell, Wonder Woman, his current gf, has both the ability to match him in strength and speed, as well as fighting ability to go with it. Regardless of how fast Superman is, if he throws a punch with wasted movement, it's still wasted movement. A trained fighter that's on par with him (such as Mongol, WW, Sinestro, or any Phantom Zone criminal) would be able to kick his ass for free. Wasted movement is wasted movement, regardless how fast you waste it.

There's also a misunderstanding of what cross-training martial arts entails. If you want to be technical, Batman DOES use "Batjitsu". But, Batjitsu is simply a custom form he's created based on the hundreds of styles he knows. Bruce Lee did the exact same thing. Bruce Lee knew boxing, kung-fu, and even ballet. His own personal style was built from a number of other disciplines to pick and choose which moves gave him the maximum effect.

Superman, if he's really gonna take it upon himself to fight crime (especially super-crime), should learn how to fight. If nothing else, it will help him end a fight before anyone gets hurt.

I see him as a brawler. It would just look weird and feel out of character for a guy with so much power to do some fancy martial arts. Really, no one can match him in power. So I'm content with his haymaker that can level cities.

I know he is not the most diverse when it comes to his fighting style but he is no idiot either, plenty of time he performs a block or a grab that catches opponents of guard. I think Superman picks stuff up as he goes along. I can never see him being all fancy in a fight but if they did make his style more like boxing or something pure upper body focused I think that would work best for Superman.

Kicks are beyond rare with Sup's, he does one in Superman/Batman: Apocalypse and I did a double take.

That's cool, but allow me to explain further. He's not just "enhanced", he's super, with super-powers.

He wouldn't waste a movement, because his whole life as Superman has been developing infinitely perfect control over his movements so that he doesn't crush the humans around him by accident when he's using his power. He has a life-time of developing absolute physical discipline. He's basically been training his whole life how to take down the baddy of the week and save lives. If he uses a wrong move, and he's facing someone without super-speed, it doesn't matter. He could make a million wrong moves while the enemy is just standing frozen from his perspective.

The times Superman does face someone with comparable stats and similar physics to his own, say another kryptonian (I already went over this for frig's sake), all the normal things that normal martial arts take into account are utterly irrelevant. He defies gravity, has planet-crushing strength, and he has face-lasers, etc. His friggin eyes are invulnerable. Very few things that normal martial arts teach would have any relevance. Grappling and wrestling holds would (to a limited extent, he would still have to compensate for zero gravity), striking weak points would; but he hardly needs any training for the first, and the latter is simply a matter of thought. And it's only if he's facing someone with his level of stats that this would matter, which is at best, rare. Even when he's facing people with comparable strength/durability, they rarely have any kind of comparable super-speed.

I've actually discussed Wonder Woman's martial arts training elsewhere. Her arbitrary power matching aside, it doesn't make sense for precisely the reasons I've said. Normal Amazons don't fly, and don't have Superman's or Wonder Woman's strength, durability and speed. And Wonder Woman's training would become completely wrong, because gravity no longer matters to someone who defies it. The best reason she has to learn Amazonian martial arts is because she's got human-level or Amazon-level vulnerability to piercing weapons like swords and bullets, etc, and needs to be able to counter them the same as a normal Amazon would, but even that's not really true because of her superhuman speed (thus bracelets vs bullets, presumably). But Superman doesn't have that vulnerability, so he doesn't need to learn that style. (And conventional weapons are too weak for Superman to use.)

(Batman. I know what cross-training martial arts entails (at least, it seems plain enough to me), I'm saying I never see Batman use anything but those arts from different schools. He keeps using the forms whole-sale. I'm keep seeing him say stuff like 'I was only using the martials arts from China to Russia. You should be able to cope!' And that's silly. I want to see him actually developing his own techniques and styles suited for his battlefield, which he may have adapted or developed from martial arts he's studied. He should basically be a Master Splinter of a whole new school of fighting.

But if he does, then that's cool. It should really be more obvious.)

Superman does know how to fight. He's been doing it since a kid. He's got the greatest superhero experience out of anyone, he's been fighting supers for his life since a kid, and he's super-intelligent, and a problem-solver. That's what I'm saying. But he's been learning to use his super-powers to full effect. Learning how to box and kick would barely cover the first 0.1% of his capabilities, and he would have learned that in 5 seconds of super-speed video replays.

The fact that he doesn't use any normal fancy schmancy martial arts beyond maximising the effects of his infinitely powerful hands and feet in striking, is because he has far more useful options available to him, he's just wasting time with it. The idea of having Superman learn judo or karate or any of that, is just ridiculous. He would basically be learning martial arts designed for amoebas.

(There may be a little dissonance here, since I'm basing this off classic Superman. Current Superman has... competency issues.)

Super. Enhanced. Tomayto. Tomahto.

The thing about "wasted movement" is that it has nothing to do with muscle control and perfecting your movements to avoid hurting others. Either Superman knows how to throw a perfect punch with no wasted movement or he doesn't. If he does, he knows martial arts. If he doesn't, he does NOT know martial arts. And, as far as canon storytelling is concerned, Superman does NOT know martial arts. As I said, when he is placed opposite of someone who is just as strong, just as fast and just as agile as he is, Superman is displayed as having inferior skill. That means he does NOT know martial arts, because the entire crux of martial arts is to know how to perform for maximum results with minimum effort.

Your argument doesn't make any sense, because it doesn't matter if there's gravity or if there isn't. If the opponent knows how to fight in zero-gravity better than Superman, then they know how to fight better. Period.

The "conventional weapons are too weak" argument doesn't work either, because no one is talking about JUST conventional weapons. Wonder Woman, Hawkgirl, and other people use magic weapons. Superman has been shot with a Kryptonite bullet. That means that there are weapons out there which can not only hurt him, but KILL him if he isn't prepared to handle them. And no, he ISN'T prepared to handle them, because that Kryptonite bullet (just for one example) would have killed him if Batman hadn't been there to pull it out of his body. You're equating Superman to being in a suit of armor. It doesn't matter how good his armor is if people know how to get around it (and they do). No matter how good your armor is, you still want to avoid taking a hit if you can help it (even soldiers wearing bullet-resistant armor still take cover and try to avoid lines of fire). Again, either Superman knows how to do this at ALL times, or he does not. And, as far as current storytelling is concerned, he does not.

My point isn't "does Superman know how to fight". I know he does. The point I'm making is that the level of skill he has at fighting is insufficient for the sheer amount of shit he expects to face in his crime-fighting career. Him being the strongest and fastest man in the world doesn't matter, because there ARE people just as strong and just as fast. There are weapons that can kill him. The entire essence of martial arts is having the most efficient method of countering them. Nothing about Superman's fighting methods suggests he is able to do that. The fact that you even use the terms "fancy schmancy" in reference to martial arts tells me that you've got this idea in your head that it's all Power Rangers and Chuck Norris. It isn't. No one said anything about Superman fighting FANCY. Martial arts is about fighting efficient. Again, if Superman is doing that already, then he's a martial artist. If he isn't, then he needs to learn to.

@kingzeal:

So the problem is just that you didn't actually read what I was writing? Bloody hell.

I already said it would be martial arts, I just said it wouldn't be human level martial arts. It's superman martial arts.

My argument makes perfect sense, because our grappling and wrestling moves are based around gravity. You can't pin someone to the floor in zero-g. Superman's and his opponent's flight ability, eliminates gravity as a factor.

No it's not tomayto/tomahto, because for starters humans don't have laser vision, or anti-gravity, or freeze breath, there's nothing we have that's remotely makes them a factor for us.

And yes, being able to control himself physically to the nth degree so that he can type on his keyboard with his moon-snuffing muscles without turning it into a nuclear fusion bomb, is exactly the same kind of control that let's him strike an opponent to nth level precision. This has always been Superman's thing, having absolute precision. It's what allows his insanely, preternaturally gifted and competent use of otherwise relatively mundane powers.

I'm saying conventional weapons are too weak for him to use. His hands are both more versatile and would destroy any opponent just as easily, except magical opponents (and any 'conventional' ie. non-magical weapon, would be weaker). But I'm also saying it doesn't matter, because everything is his weapon. If he's facing a powerful enemy, then he would use his super-powers and knowledge of science/physics, such as how he create whirlwinds to displace water, and that kind of stuff. His powers let him operate on a whole different level.

(Yes, and Wonder Woman using weapons doesn't make sense if she's got Superman stats, save against magical opponents, I've already said this. It's one of the reasons giving her Superman level stats is silly. Hawkgirl? What? She's a light-weight, of course weapons are useful for her.)

(And kryptonite is just an arbitrary kill-Superman weapon, it doesn't matter what Supes learns, it's supposed to be his weakness. I mean if we're being logical about this, then really, if someone shot a k-bullet at him, he would either see or hear it (the trigger click), and get out of the way before it's even left the barrel. It's basically magic, and meant to be rare as crap. And it doesn't even make sense, because it shouldn't be making his skin less dense.)

His level of skill should be perfect for the kind of stuff he's facing, because he's been facing it all his life, he's been developing his skills in response to precisely these kinds of threats.

The fact that this isn't reflected in his stories is a writing issue.

Who is talking specifically about human martial arts, though? The entire fault with this argument is that assumption. Who the heck said anything about Superman being limited to human fighting styles? Same thing with "conventional" weapons? Who is talking about ONLY that?

And no, Wonder Woman using weapons makes perfect sense. Weapons are tools that can do things you can't do. She has a lasso that can break mind control, can't be broken out of, and makes you speak the truth. She has a sword that can cut through anything, including the invulnerable flesh of beings like Superman. She has bracelets that, when she banged together on Superman's eardrums, deafened and HURT him. Those are all damn good reasons to have weapons and use them, no matter how powerful you are.

Also, you're forgetting that Superman NEVER moves out of the way of a bullet. The entire reason Superman didn't dodge it is because he didn't KNOW it was Kryptonite. Let's forget the fact that there are several projectiles that Superman can't move fast enough to dodge (most energy attacks from people just as fast as him for example), Superman has demonstrated that he will NOT dodge a bullet if he thinks he can tank it. The entire reason he got shot by the kryptonite bullet in the first place is because he didn't KNOW it was kryptonite until he'd already been shot with it. If you want to bring logic into it, Superman standing still and letting people shoot him is a hell of a weakness. He has actually SHOWN that he will get shot by Kryptonite if you hide the fact that it's Kryptonite until the last instant. Don't believe me? Here you go:

Doesn't matter how rare it is when you only need one to kill you. (And let's not even start with crap like Gold Kryptonite or Black Kryptonite, which is even worse.)

So yeah, if Superman isn't ACTIVELY developing fighting techniques to make use of/counter things like this, he's a crappy martial artist. But as you said it's a writing issue: writers want Superman to depend SOLELY on his powers, which makes no sense considering that his lifestyle puts him in grave danger. (And yes, it DOES put him in danger, no matter how strong he is. If it didn't, we'd have no drama.)

@kingzeal:

Who is talking specifically about human martial arts, though? The entire fault with this argument is that assumption. Who the heck said anything about Superman being limited to human fighting styles? Same thing with "conventional" weapons? Who is talking about ONLY that?

I did, genius. If you didn't have a problem with my statement, then why did you argue with it?

I said: "Dunno what style you'd call it, but it'd be top tier super martial arts level." And you disagreed with it by saying 'no, but he uses martial arts!' (Oh, and that he sucks at it. Because he's spent this whole time not learning to be effective, apparently.)

You agree with me.

The only other thing that was important is that his martial arts skill-set would look entirely different than what people think of when they think of martial arts. There's no quantum physics being applied in judo. (And that I think it's largely irrelevant to think of it as a 'skill-set', because his applications of his powers are pretty infinite in range, and his job requires a lot of 'on-the-spot' problem-solving and application, because the problems and enemies are so diverse, and he's smart.)

And no, Wonder Woman using weapons makes perfect sense. Weapons are tools that can do things you can't do.

Except Superman can do anything Wonder Woman's 'tools' could do for him, save the magical lasso. He used his fingernail as a scalpel. His hands are infinitely superior axe-blades and spears, and you can't knock them out of his hands.

Also, you're forgetting that Superman NEVER moves out of the way of a bullet. The entire reason Superman didn't dodge it is because he didn't KNOW it was Kryptonite.

Writing issue. Unless the bullet is FTL, he should see it. And he should hear the trigger being clicked, so he can look, if he happens to be looking somewhere else. (Besides which, it still makes no difference. There's no difficult martial arts required to counter kryptonite. Either he moves out of the way / HVs it or something, or he doesn't.)

I'm saying that it doesn't make sense, not that the lack of logic will stop writers from doing it.

Okay, so let me ask you this: WHY are you restricting the conversation to those things? Fighting styles are more than human arts, conventional weapons, or things that rely on gravity. There are fighting styles in the DCU which do not conform to ANY of those three things (Karate Kid's fighting style, for example. Also Wonder Woman's, whether you agree or not.) So if we're talking about Superman learning to fight better, we should be talking about ALL fighting styles, not just those that follow those three pointless rules, right? Because otherwise, you're pidgeonholing the argument to make your point make sense.

Next, it doesn't matter if Superman's fingernails can be used as a scalpel. That still requires strength and force on his part. Wonder Woman's sword can cut him like a normal sword. As I've been telling you over and over, the entire point to fighting is to get an effect with MINIMUM effort. And that's not even getting to the fact that there are characters with even tougher skin or hides than Superman. Again, a sword that can cut through anything, even them, would be pretty damn useful.

And lastly, Superman's reaction speed obviously isn't FTL all the time. The entire point here is that Superman is not able to be 100% of his best 100% of the time. And even if he was, we know for a fact that things CAN take him by surprise. Again, call that bad writing if you like, but it's a fact. And as long as it's a fact, that means Superman has weaknesses that he needs to overcome.

I didn't restrict it to those things. I said it wasn't those things, because those things are useless, and that's why I brought it up. You're the one b!tching that it isn't those things, when I already said that. His martial arts level is super, not normal.

Yes he has to use strength and effort, very minimal effort, just like he would have to use strength and effort with a weapon. Superman punching an opponent with infinite strength to destroy him is minimum effort, and his hands are versatile. His fist is the most durable and powerful conventional weapon in the universe, that's why he's always bare-handed.

Sure, let's says Wonder Woman's sword can cut him like a normal human because magic (unproven assertion, since it's never been specified to have that capability). So what? That's his specific weakness. He's the one that doesn't need a magical sword to decapitate his enemies, but if he does, he can use it just as easily as his own hands. It's basically just giving him a superior axe-hand, not changing his "martial art style".

And to avoid such a weapon, he only needs to go back a fraction, because he has super-speed and one metre is practically nothing, and heat vision her in the face. He could just blow wind at WW, and knock her backwards, or freeze her, or push the continent up over her head, or whatever. He has better options, than something as limited as human level sword-play.

Weapons would actually encumber him, because his best bet would be to dodge the sword and then break off her wrist; and he can deflect it with his hand, he doesn't need a sword to do it, but if he did have a sword, he would still be able to use it just fine because it's simply a matter of physics, which he's already perfect at using. His brain's a super-computer. The fact that it's a sword is irrelevant, he'd use it just like he uses any random object, each according to its qualities. He's beyond the need for learning specific martial arts, his martial art is physically all-encompassing. Theoretically (though not dramatically) the dude's omni-competent. (Only psychology and anticipating the enemy or unseen variables would ever be a factor. That's the only kind of training that would ever be relevant at this level, and training would only provide limited benefit.)

(On another note. If the sword is a 'slice anything' weapon, then most normal 'swordsmanship' martial arts would also be redundant. You could never block the weapon directly.)

If he can be taken by surprise then it simply doesn't matter does it? It's like saying 'his martial arts are useless when he's not using them!' It's the same problem. What martial art would have helped him if he couldn't even use his natural eyesight, or reflexes?

I will call it bad writing if I like. Kryptonite is used with complete inconsistency, and it shouldn't be piercing his super-dense flesh. And you're confusing topics. His weakness to kryptonite isn't a matter of martial arts, it's a matter of Deus Ex Machina. He should be able to melt green k on sight. What is it with you guys and your absolute brain-welded investment to in-universe feats that are never consistent? It'll always disappoint you.

You're just going around in circles for no reason. Everything you're bringing up is completely pointless or irrelevant or redundant. Just accept that you weren't really adding anything, and move on.

(If you're worried I'm eliminating Superman threats, that's in no way the case. I'm just saying it's a completely different and higher tier than all the normal things you have to worry about at street level.)

I have no idea what the hell you're talking about in that first paragraph. If nobody is talking about that, why did you bring it up? YOU'RE the one who brought it up. Don't get pissy at me. If nobody is talking about that type of martial art, why the fuck are you bringing it up? I didn't. So what purpose does it serve?

It's stated that magical items have the ability to hurt Superman the same way normal items hurt ordinary people. Superman has cut himself on a magical blade before. There's no reason that Wonder Woman's sword would be any different. And, in fact, it isn't.

You see that right there? That's a weapon cutting Superman with ease. No matter how powerful Superman's muscles are, no matter how much of their own weapons his fingers are, that is still a sword cutting him. Talking about how strong his fingers are on top of that is BESIDES the point. You know what's better than having fingers that are powerful weapons? Having fingers and a sword that are powerful weapons.

And the "all he needs to do is avoid the weapon" argument is a tautology. No shit. But the whole point here is that he can't dodge everything. Maybe you believe he should be able to, because in your mind Superman is God and shouldn't realistically be hurt by anything ever. But, unfortunately for you, in the DC Universe (which is all we care about) Superman isn't God. And he can get hit by things. Saying "all he has to do is dodge an attack" is pointless because that is true of literally every attack ever. But, he doesn't dodge everything because that isn't how stories work. So, we can only go by what stories show us. And what they show us is that Superman is vulnerable to attacks sometimes.

In the picture above, Superman stops WW's attack from hitting him, but that is again besides the point. She hurt him with a fucking flick of her sword. Also, your argument about "not blocking the sword" is irrelevant, because (A) that isn't how swordfighting works and (B) you can deflect a sword attack without touching the blade directly. Again, actually knowing something about martial arts would help.

Also, no, Superman cannot be "beyond the need for learning martial arts" because that would make him a perfect fighter. Again you don't seem to get what martial arts is. If you're not perfect fighter, then you have weaknesses to train to beat. Period. The only way Superman can be beyond that is if he never gets hurt or defeated by anything, ever. Again, maybe in your world, that's the way it should be, but your world isn't the DC Universe. In-universe feats are the only things that matter because as you're proving right now, any fanboy that wants to use real-life logic is going to break the story. Real-life logic doesn't work in comic books, and the more you try to force it, the more ridiculous it gets.

And speaking of real-life logic, what the fuck is this "weapons encumber him" bullshit? One second you're talking about how invincible he is and how his strength is all-powerful, but now all of a sudden a bunch of weapons "encumber him"? Get the fuck out of town. That's like saying a feather encumbers Bruce Lee. Superman (in his present form) can benchpress the Earth. There's no fucking way a sword is going to "encumber" him.

Except what I agreed with was the idea that he can't learn ANYTHING from "street level" martial arts. No, he wouldn't use boxing specifically, but he could certainly learn enough about boxing to throw a better punch. Either Superman knows how to throw a perfect punch or he does not. If does not, then he has some room for improvement. That's my whole goddamn point.

Again, what YOU think Superman could do to avoid an attack is irrelevant. If we use logic of what "can" be done to avoid or defeat an attack, nothing will ever get done, because speculation can go anywhere. The fact remains that there are attacks Superman can't deal with and has been hurt by. There are weapons which hurt him. Again, whether or not you agree with this fact does not change it from (currently) being a fact.

"If I'm fighting a boxer then putting a boxing glove on my hand encumbers me". What? No the fuck it doesn't. You do know that a boxing glove actually adds mass to your fist, and protects your fist from harm, right? A boxing glove actually does more damage than a bare fist because it protects your fist from your own attack while adding weight and mass to it. If that was supposed to be an analogy, it failed. The point you were making also fails. There is nothing about a magical sword that cuts through anything that "encumbers" Superman's scalpel fingers. You can use both. Especially when you're fucking Superman and move so fast that you could actually let go of the sword, throw a punch, and catch it before it even fell. There is NOTHING about this sword that restricts him or hinders his fighting style in any way.

No, the whole point here is that a metre long weapon is friggin' easy for him to dodge. At super-speed it might as well be three molecules long for all the reach it adds.

Another point is that he doesn't need a weapon to counter it, and he has better options.

Another point is that even if he had such a weapon, he doesn't need to learn additional skills for it. He already knows how death works

Again, if his opponent's speed is equal to his, then Superman's speed is FUCKING MOOT. You do know that speed is relative, right? Superman and an opponent moving at the same speed means that he can't dodge that person any easier than you could dodge a sword if I swung it at you. We are, once again, basing these assumptions on the idea that Superman will fight people either as strong and as fast as he is or moreso. This conversation is pointless if we're assuming that Superman is just flat out better in every way.

I'm pretty sure people used shields to block swords. People used cross guards to block swords. Yes, I think people do try to block swords when people are swinging them at them.

Yes, he can deflect a sword attack, and he can do it using his own power-set and skills, which are not human level sword-play martial arts. He can use his hand to deflect it if he needs to, but he doesn't even need to do that.

You do know that there are other ways to block swords other than shields, right? And even if we limit this to shields, you DO know that the magic sword also has a magic shield counterpart that cancel each other out, right? So yeah, again this is pointless. (And before you pull the "but it's so stupid and doesn't make sense" card, no one cares what you think makes sense. If the sword can cut through anything but the shield, then that's what it does. Doesn't matter if you like it or not.

And no, he fucking CAN'T use his hand to deflect it. Remember, the sword can cut his hand OFF. He stopped WW's attack by grabbing her wrist, not the sword. And even then, she was able to cut him.

A) He's a superhero. He always wins. (Okay, not always, but you're basically criticising him for being good at his job, which in itself is his job.)

B) It doesn't mean nothing can hurt or defeat him. I said he wouldn't be defeated by human level martial arts, wouldn't be restricted to it. And that he's physically maximally competent, you can't "out-skill" him on that level. The kind of threats he's fighting aren't going to be throwing spears at him, or judo chopping his neck, and if they did, it would give them nothing that he couldn't already do. He's far bigger than that. The enemies that can stomp him are the kind of entities that alter reality itself.

A) No he doesn't. Superman has lost multiple times. And while losing usually doesn't mean death for him, it can mean other people get hurt in the process or that bad guys further their plans while he recovers. But, even barring that, you're using out-of-universe logic again. In-universe, Superman doesn't know he's going to win every fight.

B) No one is fucking talking about human level martial arts. Shut up about that.

That's the point. Logically, he should be, and historically it's his thing. He's not just the perfect fighter with his powers, but he will find a way to beat you even when it shouldn't be possible. If you have an issue with this, it's entirely your problem.

("Martial arts" isn't a complicated concept. You're just having trouble accepting the fact that Superman doesn't operate at the same level as street fighters, that's all.)

I suspect your issue is less about the logic of Superman's powers, and more that you want to justify Wonder Woman being at Superman's level, but still getting weapons to kill him with anyway. That holds no interest for me. She shouldn't be at his level in the first place.

Again no one cares what you think Superman should "logically" be. We are talking about what we see in the story. If you can't get that, then we're done here.

And here you go again with the "street level" bullshit. No one is talking about that. Martial arts means that you throw the best attacks possible, no matter what it is. And Superman does not throw a punch as well as, say, Karate Kid or another trained fighter. Yes he throws good punches, but as I keep telling you, the whole point of Martial Arts is to get better.

And finally, I have no idea what you're talking about in that last nonsense. WW is an example in this conversation, nothing more. I don't give a shit about her having weapons or not.

@kingzeal:

(I'm going to have to censor the fs. If you didn't know already, swearing's against the forum rules, and I think comicvine is blocking my posts because of it.)

Except what I agreed with was the idea that he can't learn ANYTHING from "street level" martial arts. No, he wouldn't use boxing specifically, but he could certainly learn enough aboutboxing to throw a better punch. Either Superman knows how to throw a perfect punch or he does not. If does not, then he has some room for improvement. That's my whole goddamn point.

And he does, which is why you were being redundant. You know how daft this is? You're working yourself into a pointless rage about something we agreeon.

"If I'm fighting a boxer then putting a boxing glove on my hand encumbers me". What? No the fuck it doesn't. You doknow that a boxing glove actually adds massto your fist, and protects your fist from harm, right?

And makes it less effective.It adds shit-all mass, and cushions the impact (okay not very much, but still), and the impact is spread over a larger area. More relevant, Superman's fists are invulnerablehe doesn't need to protect them, and he already punches at infinite levels.

There is NOTHING about this sword that restricts him or hinders his fighting style in any way.

It's occupies his infinitely versatile hand. A sword just doesn't addmuch, and it takes away far more until he lets go of it.

He can throwthat sword at something, and then rush and and punch, and that's just him using the sword the way he'd use anything. That's part of his martial art spectrum, and it's not something he has to learn.He's already fully skilled with it.

What I'm saying is, that even if the sword ismore effective, he doesn't need to learn how to use it.It's an object, and he operates on a level of physics, not "skills", that's where his head is at.

Again, if his opponent's speed is equal to his, then Superman's speed is F**KING MOOT.You do know that speed is relative, right? Superman and an opponent moving at the same speed means that he can't dodge that person any easier than you could dodge a sword if I swung it at you. We are, once again, basing these assumptions on the idea that Superman will fight people either as strong and as fast as he is or moreso. This conversation is pointless if we're assuming that Superman is just flat out better in every way.

Then pay better attention next time. I clearly made a distinction. "Street level" is moot. "Superman level" is relevant, and I already went over it.

Superman uses Superman-level martial arts. Your offense is entirely fabricated out of nothing.

Obviously if their speed is equal, it's even, but that swordis relatively infinitesimal. A difference of 0.000000000000001% in speed or direction, puts either of them miles out of reach.

Yes, if the difference is moot, the difference is moot. So what? At this level the ability to throw planets, and use lasers/cold-rays, is more significant than little bits of metal. The ability to vibrate so fast you can't be touched, is more relevant, and takes more skill.The ability to create cyclones, break the light barrier, and throwing swordsnear the speed of light, is more relevant than learning how humans use swords.

Look, pay attention here. The point is that street level martial arts are of infinitesimal value and difficulty. He doesn't need to to use a sword when he has laser beams.But if he does,he already can.

That's what I'm saying. We're talking about the skilldifference. And I'm telling you Superman's already got maximum skills at this level. He knows what his options are, and he's perfectly capable of picking the best one. He doesn't need to start training with swords in a gym somewhere. 'Stabbing' and 'slicing' are not complex skills beyond his tiny kryptonian brain.

You do know that there are otherways to block swords other than shields, right? And even if we limit this to shields, you DO know that the magic sword also has a magic shield counterpart that cancel each other out, right? So yeah, again this is pointless. (And before you pull the "but it's so stupid and doesn't make sense" card, no one cares what you think makes sense. If the sword can cut through anything but the shield, then that's what it does. Doesn't matter if you like it or not.

And no, he ****ing CAN'T use his hand to deflect it. Remember, the sword can cut his hand OFF. He stopped WW's attack by grabbing her wrist, not the sword. And even then, she was able to cut him.

Deflect.Not block. Obviously if it cuts through anything then nothinghe uses can block it. But he can still slap it aside by hitting the flatof it. Or he could get out of range in the same instant she even starts the strike. His super-speed can put him anywhere else in an instant. She would either have to be faster, or their super-speed would be so ridiculously close as to hit that infinitesimal difference between missing him and him getting inside her guard.

A) No he doesn't. Superman has lost multiple times. And while losing usually doesn't mean death for him, it can mean other people get hurt in the process or that bad guys further their plans while he recovers. But, even barring that, you're using out-of-universe logic again. In-universe, Superman doesn't know he's going to win every fight.

B) No one is ****ing talking about human level martial arts. Shut up about that.

People are talking about it. But you'rethe one making it an issue. If you don't want to talk about 'human level' vs 'superman level' then feel free to leave.

Yes, fictional Superman lost in a fictional universe with arbitrary writing. So friggin what? Out-of-universe logic is just called logic.

Again no one cares what you think Superman should "logically" be. We are talking about what we see in the story.If you can't get that, then we're done here.

And here you go again with the "street level" bullshit. No one is talking about that. Martial arts means that you throw the best attacks possible, no matter what it is. And Superman does not throw a punch as well as, say, Karate Kid or another trained fighter. Yes he throws goodpunches, but as I keep telling you, the whole point of Martial Arts is to get better.

And finally, I have no idea what you're talking about in that last nonsense. WW is an example in this conversation, nothing more. I don't give a shit about her having weapons or not.

If you don't care, then stop replying.

If we're talking about what we see in the story, then there's nothing to argue about.What we see is just what we see. You're trying to make an argument on the basis of having nothing to argue about.

The only way for Superman to get better, is for him to get more powerful, or yes, better weapons/tools for him to use. But if they're something like a magical three-mile long sword, he already knows how to use it. Do you see what I'm getting at? It's not a skillfor him, he doesn't have to learnthis stuff. The things that would be useful for him would not be useful for any human. And the conventionalthings which are useful for humans would not be useful for him. Magic would be, but nothing ordinary.

I'm saying he's perfectly competentwith his powers, not that he's omnipotentin power, save for physically limitless strength.

Yes, "martial arts" means that, and he does,or logically should.His "martial arts" simply going beyondboxing etc, and the usefulness of thosemartial arts are simply infinitesimal compared to his overall rangeof power.

Frankly, you don't seem to have any idea of what's going on in the conversation at all, or else you never would have started it. You're being redundant, and steaming up your brain-cells about it, because you can't grasp or accept the actual point. All you have to do is say that you agree 'learning to use human martial arts would be both easy and insignificant for Superman', and add nothing else.

Do that, and we can all go home.

----------------------------

(To add a couple of points that was deleted along with the post.)

I'm aware of the WW vs Supes fights that have happened previously, not only were they purely arbitrary, they were based on the premise of magic nullifying Superman's natural powers.

And it still didn't make any sense. In the time that Wonder Woman was swinging that tiara at him, he could have simply ducked, or blinded her with heat-vision, or deflected it with super-breath, unless he was magically blinded, in which case it 'martial arts' is irrelevant again.

Of course human level martial arts would be relevant if he's basically turned human.

Real-life logic doesn't work in comic books, and the more you try to force it, the more ridiculous it gets.

So what kind of logic did you want to use? The 'what-I-feel' logic? Because I admit I can't argue against that.

And he does, which is why you were being redundant. You know how daft this is? You're working yourself into a pointless rage about something we agree on.

If your argument is seriously that Superman throws a "perfect punch" then no we don't agree.

And makes it less effective. It adds shit-all mass, and cushions the impact, and the impact is spread over a larger area. Plus, Superman's fists are invulnerable he doesn't need to protect them.

No, no. Your analogy wasn't about Superman. It was about "you". You said that you putting a boxing glove on your hand would encumber your ability fight. And no, it doesn't add "shit" mass. It cushions the impact only for you (look it up, boxing gloves actually hurt the people hit more than a normal fist) and yes, it spreads the impact over a larger area (and more damage as well). If you are punching someone, you gain far more advantage with a boxing glove than without.

It's occupies his infinitely versatile hand. A sword just doesn't add much, and it takes away far more until he lets go of it.

His hand isn't "infinitely" versatile. Again, are we talking about someone as tough and as strong as Superman or are we not? If we are, then the sword is a better weapon in this regard. If we aren't talking about such an opponent, then once again, there is no point to this argument.

He can throw that sword at something, and then rush and and punch, and that's just him using the sword the way he'd use anything. That's part of his martial art spectrum, and it's not something he has to learn. He's already fully skilled with it.

Bullshit. First of all, I didn't say anything about "throw". And that's stupid anyway. If he moves fast enough to attack while the sword is thrown, then throwing it was pointless. What I said was that he could let go of a sword and attack and then pick it up again when needed. Even in that case, having a sword is still better tha NOT having a sword because (as you just said) you can do everything you can without the sword, but you ALSO have a sword just in case.

Also, once again. Is Superman a perfect swordsman? If your answer to this question is "no", then he needs to learn something. Period.

What I'm saying is, that even if the sword is more effective, he doesn't need to learn how to use it. It's an object, and he operates on a level of physics, not "skills", that's where his head is at.

Semantics. No matter what his level is, if he can learn to use a sword better, he can learn to use it better. Or, not just a sword. ANY weapon. It doesn't matter what it is. For the billionth time, the question is this: is there room to improve? If the answer is yes, then he should learn it.

That's what I'm saying. We're talking about the skill difference. And I'm telling you Superman's already got maximum skills at this level.

I'm skipping the rest of that nonsense to focus on this here. No. Superman does NOT have "maximum skills". If he did, he would never lose a fight. Hell, he'd never even get harmed. So every time Superman, or a teammate, gets hurt or beaten in a fight, that proves this nonsense you're saying wrong. Superman CAN'T have maximum skills and either lose a fight or get hurt in one. The entire point to martial arts is to win every single fight without getting harmed at all.

Again, maybe in the world you WISHED existed Superman would be this invincible, but that isn't the DC Universe.

Deflect. Not block. Obviously if it cuts through anything then nothing he uses can block it. But he can still slap it aside by hitting the flatof it. Or he could get out of range in the same instant she even starts the strike. His super-speed can put him anywhere else in an instant. She would either have to be faster, or their super-speed would be so ridiculously close as to hit that infinitesimal difference between missing him and him getting inside her guard.

So again I need to explain how speed works. Speed. Is. Relative. If his enemy is as fast as Superman, he can't do any of that crap you just said. Two people moving at the same speed cancel each other out. We are talking about opponents that match him in every respect. If we are not talking about that, we are done.

You're the one making it an issue. If you don't want to talk about 'human level' vs 'superman level' then piss off.

Or how about you stop bringing the shit up?

Yes, fictional Superman lost in a fictional universe with arbitrary writing. So friggin what? Out-of-universe logic is just called logic.

Which doesn't exist in your "arbitrary" setting. The arbitrary setting is the setting of the fucking character. Your so-called "logic" that works out of universe can't be applied to a character that doesn't exist out of that damn universe.

I'm saying he's perfectly competent with his powers, not that he's omnipotent in power, save for physically limitless strength.

That is pointless semantics. He can't be "perfectly" competent with his power or else he would never be harmed or beaten. If you're talking about a Superman that hasn't been harmed or beaten, then you aren't talking about the one everyone else in this topic is.

ll you have to do is say that you agree 'learning to use human martial arts would be both easy and insignificant for Superman', and add nothing else.

No, because that is irrelevant to the damned topic.

The topic is not "should Superman learn human martial arts". The topic is about Superman's fighting style and if he should learn better fighting arts.

Your argument is, "No. Superman is already the bestest and perfectest".

My argument is, "Yes. Superman should learn better fighting styles. Including learning some things from humans who know things he doesn't."

So thanks but no thanks. I'll go home when I'm good and ready.

@kingzeal:

If your argument is seriously that Superman throws a "perfect punch" then no we don't agree.

How the hell wouldn't he? The point is that if he isn't, he should be.

No, no. Your analogy wasn't about Superman. It was about "you". You said that you putting a boxing glove on your hand would encumber your ability fight. And no, it doesn't add "shit" mass. It cushions the impact only for you (look it up, boxing gloves actually hurt the people hit more than a normal fist) and yes, it spreads the impact over a larger area (and more damage as well). If you are punching someone, you gain far more advantage with a boxing glove than without.

Yes, more, but it still reduces the effectiveness of a fist. It just does so in a manner that is beneficial to the puncher.

And it would reduce effectiveness in a fight, because it adds small punching advantage, and takes away a lot of you grapply ability, and the ability to pick up an object to hit someone with.

I'm a human, it was only ever going to be an analogy anyway.

His hand isn't "infinitely" versatile. Again, are we talking about someone as tough and as strong as Superman or are we not? If we are, then the sword is a better weapon in this regard. If we aren't talking about such an opponent, then once again, there is no point to this argument.

His hand is infinitely versatile. How does he pick up that weapon in the first place?

The sword is a shit weapon. Friggin medieval people used it. Do our soldiers use swords now? No? Why? Because it's a dumbass weapon to use in comparison to what's available.It's only useful by being magical therefore having unconventional power, and it still comes in a crappy format that requires no skill-adjustment for Superman. And the thing is, if it's magical then we're still talking non-human martial arts. The moon is a good weapon. Laser-eyes are a good weapon. You don't have to go anywhere near your enemy.

Bullshit. First of all, I didn't say anything about "throw". And that's stupid anyway. If he moves fast enough to attack while the sword is thrown, then throwing it was pointless. What I said was that he could let go of a sword and attack and then pick it up again when needed. Even in that case, having a sword is still better tha NOT having a sword because (as you just said) you can do everything you can without the sword, but you ALSO have a sword just in case.

Also, once again. Is Superman a perfect swordsman? If your answer to this question is "no", then he needs to learn something. Period.

You got that backwards, buddy. If he moves fast enough to attack while the sword is thrown, then he can use the sword and his fists at the same time. If he moves faster, then he could restrain her while it impales her. Okay, yes, having the magical sword available to him is perfectly fine, and could be useful for reasons. It just doesn't require any additional skill for him to know how to use it. At least not human level skills.

The answer is yes, because it's the simplest object in the universe, and Superman has a super-computer for a brain.

And what the hell is the point of this? If he has to learn "something", he still would not be anything human level he has to learn. Maybe he needs to learn how to alter it's quanutm state with his heat-vision to phase it pan-dimensionally through Flash's intangible neck, but that's Superman level martial arts.

I'm skipping the rest of that nonsense to focus on this here. No. Superman does NOT have "maximum skills". If he did, he would never lose a fight. Hell, he'd never even get harmed. So every time Superman, or a teammate, gets hurt or beaten in a fight, that proves this nonsense you're saying wrong. Superman CAN'T have maximum skills and either lose a fight or get hurt in one. The entire point to martial arts is to win every single fight without getting harmed at all.

Again, maybe in the world you WISHED existed Superman would be this invincible, but that isn't the DC Universe.

He should have maximum skills. Even if he didn't, he has been practising Superman level skills his whole life, which is the point. Wonder Woman can bring a sword, he can bring laser vision, infinite strength, reality-warping, science, and every sort of Superman thing. His significant skills are different, and on a higher plane.

No, in fact Superman has historically, and famously been the invincible superhero. They invented kryptonite for him.

And it's pointless because I'm discussing the logic. If you don't want to discuss the logic, then you have no business in this argument.

The entire point of martial arts is to achieve the best possible victory with the tools you have. If Superman had a button he could push to win every fight, he'd be 100% victorious, but it wouldn't require any skill.

So again I need to explain how speed works. Speed. Is. Relative. If his enemy is as fast as Superman, he can't do any of that crap you just said. Two people moving at the same speed cancel each other out. We are talking about opponents that match him in every respect. If we are not talking about that, we are done.

Yes. He. Can.

It doesn't matter even if we assume his enemy is as fast as him, it doesn't make '100 miles' any shorter. If we assume that their speed and direction is always perfectly matched, then we're just assuming they're standing still. Now if Superman has something to block the sword with, he'll do it. But that's like 1/1000 options available.

If his opponents match him in every respect then neither of them have an advantage. They're both equally capable of Superman feats, which is a range infinitely larger than just stabbing each other with swords. And Superman's first options would be to literally blow the enemy away, or go intangible, to get what ever distance he wanted from the magical letter-opener.

Look if we're not talking 'about it', or 'you're done' just move onto another topic.

Or how about you stop bringing the shit up?

You attacked it, dumbass, by agreeing with it. Don't blame me that you couldn't read the first sentence of the post.

Which doesn't exist in your "arbitrary" setting. The arbitrary setting is the setting of the fucking character. Your so-called "logic" that works out of universe can't be applied to a character that doesn't exist out of that damn universe.

Logic works everywhere. In fact, it's the only thing which matters in comics. And you've been spending your posts both decrying and arguing it. So you're contradicting yourself by your actions. You know you're basically saying: 'sure, logically you're right, but if we ditch logic then you could be wrong.'

That is pointless semantics. He can't be "perfectly" competent with his power or else he would never be harmed or beaten. If you're talking about a Superman that hasn't been harmed or beaten, then you aren't talking about the one everyone else in this topic is.

Of course he can. No matter how competent he is with his powers, Mr. Mxyzpltlk can still turn him into a fish. In order to be unharmable and unbeatable, he needs more power to use. I could be the greatest archer in existence, but it won't protect me from an earthquake.

And for the sake of argument, let's say he's not perfectly competent. So what? He's still exceptional. He's super-human. Which is all that matters. A higher tier of competency.

And I already told you I'm discussing Superman's classical mythos, which I grew up with, and the logical result of his powers and experience. The dissonance is entirely on you, if you want to discuss it.

How the hell wouldn't he? The point is that if he isn't, he should be.

Is there a character that can punch better than he can? If so, then he isn't. Karate Kid alone fits this description. And fighters like Wonder Woman and Zod are typically described as superior as well. If Superman needs to rely on his powers to throw a "perfect punch", then anyone with powers similar or equal to his PLUS better skill is going to throw a better punch.

Yes, more, but it still reduces the effectiveness of a fist. It just does so in a manner that is beneficial to the puncher.

And it would reduce effectiveness in a fight, because it adds small punching advantage, and takes away a lot of you grapply ability, and the ability to pick up an object to hit someone with.

I'm a human, it was only ever going to be an analogy anyway.

No, wrong on every account. It does NOT reduce the effectiveness of a fist in any way. And the advantage it gives is huge. You also forget that there are fingered fighting gloves (they use this in MMA to allow grappling).

Again, there is ZERO disadvantage to a boxing (or fighting) glove.

The sword is a shit weapon. Friggin medieval people used it. Do our soldiers use swords now?

What the hell kind of Bizarro logic are you using? We use combat knives all the damn time. The only reason swords went out of style is because bullets have more energy (and thus inflict more damage), better speed, and ease of use. That doesn't apply here. A melee weapon swung by Superman would have more energy than a bullet and Superman's reflexes add more speed. Ease of use doesn't apply unless he learns to swing a sword by pulling a trigger.

Laser-eyes are a good weapon. You don't have to go anywhere near your enemy.

No one said they aren't good weapons. But not every fight is long-distance. And, some opponents (Darkseid for example) have BETTER beam weapons than his.

If he moves fast enough to attack while the sword is thrown, then he can use the sword and his fists at the same time.

Wow, I left the door open for you to pull this card, and you actually walked into it. I thought you might say that, but I can't believe you actually did it. You realize that, right there, you just gave a good reason why he should use a sword as a weapon, right?

If you are actually giving good reasons why he should have and use a sword, then why the fuck are you arguing?

And it's pointless because I'm discussing the logic. If you don't want to discuss the logic, then you have no business in this argument.

"Teh logic" is speculative nonsense that doesn't fit in a in-universe discussion. Again, you seem to think that Superman is invincible or should be. That, right there, states that you really don't have a clue about the character. Yes, they invented Kryptonite for him like decades ago. But he hasn't been THAT invincible in a long time. And if you're stuck that far back, it's no one's fault but your own.

It doesn't matter even if we assume his enemy is as fast as him, it doesn't make '100 miles' any shorter.

You...really don't get how this "relative" thing works, do you? You can't get 100 miles of distance if you and your opponent are moving at the same speed.

If his opponents match him in every respect then neither of them have an advantage. They're both equally capable of Superman feats, which is a range infinitely larger than just stabbing each other with swords. And Superman's first options would be to literally blow the enemy away, to get what ever distance he wanted from the magical letter-opener.

Since you like using "teh logics", you do realize that if they're moving at their full speed, Superman's breath would halt in mid-air the second he blows, right? It would be like trying to blow bubbles while riding on top of a jet.

If they are both equal in feats, a magic sword that cuts through anything would be a goddamn gamechanger.

You attacked it, dumbass, by agreeing with it. Don't blame me that you couldn't read the first sentence of the post.

Because you keep bringing the crap up. And I didn't even fucking attack it.

Logic works everywhere. In fact, it's the only thing which matters in comics. And you've been spending your posts both decrying andarguing it. So you're contradicting yourself by your actions.

Er, no. The only thing that matters in comics is what the comics say. If your "logic" contradicts it because it's convenient, then you're having a discussion no one asked for.

Of course he can. No matter how competent he is with his powers, Mr. Mxyzpltlk can still turn him into a fish. In order to be unharmable and unbeatable, he needs more power to use. I could be the greatest archer in existence, but it won't protect me from an earthquake.

And for the sake of argument, let's say he's not perfectly competent. So what? He's still exceptional. He's super-human. Which is all that matters. A higher tier of competency.

So then, Mxyzptlk aside (because he's omnipotent), his fighting style needs to be prepared to FIGHT more powerful opponents. Unlike your hilariously bad archer analogy (because an earthquake isn't a regular part of an archer's job), Superman can actually expect to fight people stronger than he is. And does so all the time. Thus, his fighting style should improve to deal with that. If Superman has "maximum skill", then he would never need to improve anything, no matter how powerful his opponent was. That's what "skill" is. It's the ability to use power in a manner that yields results you want. If Superman's is "maximum", then nothing should ever hurt him.

If he's just "super competent" or whatever, then that still means he can get better. If he's not perfect, then there is room for improvement. And as I've told you a billion times already, the entire point of martial arts is to constantly improve.

And I already told you I'm discussing Superman's classical mythos, which I grew up with,

NOBODY ELSE IS. If you are talking about a literally unbeatable Superman, nobody else is.

@kingzeal:

You are seriously one obsessed dude.

Is there a character that can punch better than he can? If so, then he isn't. Karate Kid alone fits this description. And fighters like Wonder Woman and Zod are typically described as superior as well. If Superman needs to rely on his powers to throw a "perfect punch", then anyone with powers similar or equal to his PLUS better skill is going to throw a better punch.

You're confusing technique with power. I don't care who's described as superior. Punches are the simplest things in the universe. Even a child could do it.

They'll throw a more powerful punch, if they're more powerful. It won't be any more skilled. Punches is the simplest possible thing for him to perfect, and he's got perfect physical control. It's a piece of cake for someone with his stats.

No, wrong on every account. It does NOT reduce the effectiveness of a fist in any way. And the advantage it gives is huge. You also forget that there are fingered fighting gloves (they use this in MMA to allow grappling).

Again, there is ZERO disadvantage to a boxing (or fighting) glove.

I already know bare-knuckle boxing is less dangerous as a sport. I knew this hilarious fun-fact years ago. Nothing to do with it. Putting a glove on a fist, does not make it the punch more effective, it just makes the puncher better protected against the consequences, and less able to gauge his strike.

Yes, I'm sure different gloves might be better or worse. You know what would actually be useful in an actual fight? Brass rings.

What the hell kind of Bizarro logic are you using? We use combat knives all the damn time. The only reason swords went out of style is because bullets have more energy (and thus inflict more damage), better speed, and ease of use. That doesn't apply here. A melee weapon swung by Superman would have more energy than a bullet and Superman's reflexes add more speed. Ease of use doesn't apply unless he learns to swing a sword by pulling a trigger.

Which isn't a sword. Soldiers have guns for their primary weapons.They're more effective in war, and they keep you safer from the enemy. Superman has lasers. Why would he restrict himself to a melee weapon?

The point here is that a magical sword surely can be useful in the hands of Superman, it's just not nearly as useful as his other abilities, and he requires no additional skill, and if he uses it, the chances are he wouldn't be using it the way a human uses it.

Wow, I left the door open for you to pull this card, and you actually walked into it. I thought you might say that, but I can't believe you actually did it. You realize that, right there, you just gave a good reason why he should use a sword as a weapon, right?

If you are actually giving good reasons why he should have and use a sword, then why the fuck are you arguing?

No, the problem is that you don't understand the argument. The advantage that a magical sword could bring him would:

A) Not justify him carrying it around all the time. In fact, it is potentially a liability against him if any of his enemies pick it up.

B) Not require him learning human level martial arts.

He'd be better off carrying a Phantom Zone Projector into battle. Do you get it yet? There are more useful things he could have.

Er, no. The only thing that matters in comics is what the comics say. If your "logic" contradicts it because it's convenient, then you're having a discussion no one asked for.

The topic is 'Superman's fighting style', and I offered an opinion on it. You challenged my post, and therefore we're having a debate. A debate requires logic. You are definitionally putting yourself in the wrong by asserting an illogical stance.

You...really don't get how this "relative" thing works, do you? You can't get 100 miles of distance if you and your opponent are moving at the same speed.

Unless he's already more than one metre away, right? He breaks to the right, and if it even takes a fraction of a second for his opponent to follow after him, chances are that's way more than a single metre he gained. And he has better weapons, because his weapons are ranged. They're too fast for such a short-ranged weapon. A magical FTL gun would be better, or just a spell. And really it's only good against Supes or similiar targetsbecause that's his weakness. It wouldn't help Superman fight Brainiac, for example.

If he's just "super competent" or whatever, then that still means he can get better. If he's not perfect, then there is room for improvement. And as I've told you a billion times already, the entire point of martial arts is to constantly improve.

Am I offending you as a martial artist, or something? It's freaking Superman, dude, perfection was kind of his game. He's not human. I already said Superman uses martial arts. It just includes a much wider range than people think of, it's not limited to what you expect from human martial arts. That's the only relevant point here.

I have no problem with him getting better. I'm just saying that his competency at least puts him far above street level considerations, and onto Superman level considerations, which includes all kinds of weird and wacky science. If you agree, then... well, shit, we agree.

So then, Mxyzptlk aside (because he's omnipotent), his fighting style needs to be prepared to FIGHT more powerful opponents.

So, Superman isn't omnipotent.

Yes. We agree. His fighting style is super. He's not preparing to fight humans.

He practises Superman level martial arts. Whether he gets better at it or not is irrelevant. Reason suggests that he should either be as good at it as it's possible for him to be; or that he simply has the greatest experience at it, out of everyone on earth. Everything else doesn't really matter.

You're confusing technique with power. I don't care who's described as superior. Punches are the simplest things in the universe. Even a child could do it.

They'll throw a more powerful punch, if they're more powerful. It won't be any more skilled. Punches is the simplest possible thing for him to perfect, and he's got perfect physical control. It's a piece of cake for someone with his stats.

That right there proves you don't have a goddamn clue about fighting. Techniques exist to MAXIMIZE power (and speed, and accuracy and whatever). That isn't something you can just "pick up".

You know what would actually be useful in an actual fight? Brass rings.

And you know what that is? A weapon. A weapon besides bare fists.

Funny how you just keep proving my points for me.

Which isn't a sword. Soldiers have guns for their primary weapons.

I already talked about Kryptonite bullets. Did you forget that the sword was just an example?

They're more effective in war, and they keep you safer from the enemy. Superman has lasers. Why would he restrict himself to a melee weapon?

Because the sword can do things he CAN'T? Remember? Remember the sword that cut him with a flick? Again (assuming his opponent is as invulnerable as he is), that's powerful as hell.

The point here is that a magical sword surely can be useful in the hands of Superman, it's just not nearly as useful as his other abilities, and he requires no additional skill, and if he uses it, the chances are he wouldn't be using it the way a human uses it.

Even if this were true, you yourself just provided an example of how it can improve his abilities or be used in concert with it. Nobody said the sword (or whatever the fuck weapon, since the sword is just an example) needed to be better than his current abilities. If a weapon has uses beyond what you can do naturally, then it's a fucking useful weapon. You keep admitting this, but still want to argue anyway.

A) Not justify him carrying it around all the time.

Nobody said this.

B) Not require him learning human level martial arts.

NOBODY SAID THIS.

He'd be better off carrying a Phantom Zone Projector into battle. Do you get it yet? There are more useful things he could have.

Yes, I fucking got it a long time ago. You're the one who seems to have forgotten that I was advocating "ALL fighting styles" (including any type of weapon) that gives an advantage.

Go ahead, Ctrl+F "all fighting styles". Refresh your memory when I said that, now?

The topic is 'Superman's fighting style', and I offered an opinion on it. You challenged my post, and therefore we're having a debate. A debate requires logic. You are definitionally putting yourself in the wrong by asserting an illogical stance.

Do you even know what point I challenged? Because it doesn't seem like you do.

And yes, logic as in "in-universe" logic. But I'm done repeating that to you.

Unless he's already more than one metre away, right?

This is called a "Begging the question" fallacy. Why not just assume the fight starts with him on the moon, while you're at it?

He breaks to the right, and if it even takes a fraction of a second for his opponent to follow after him, chances are that's way more than a single metre he gained.

If they're equal in speed and reflexes, then the opponent will see Superman move before any distance is gained at all. Why does Superman suddenly have better reflexes when we're talking about a person either equal to or better than him?

And he has better weapons, because his weapons are ranged.'

Again, unless his opponent has better ranged weapons. Which many of his opponents do. Next.

. I'm just saying that his competency at least puts him far above street level considerations,

NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT THIS. Next.

He's not preparing to fight humans.

NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT THIS. Next.

...Oh that's it? Well, I guess that's it for me for the night. If you're just going to repeat points I either already stated, already proved wrong, or that no one is talking about, I think we're done.

@kingzeal:

That right there proves you don't have a goddamn clue about fighting. Techniques exist to MAXIMIZE power (and speed, and accuracy and whatever). That isn't something you can just "pick up".

Maximise available power. Which he does.

And you know what that is? A weapon. A weapon besides bare fists.

Funny how you just keep proving my points for me.

I thought you said Superman had nothing to do with this? Brass knuckles are useful for humans. They would handi-cap Superman. I told you it was simply an analogy.

I already talked about Kryptonite bullets. Did you forget that the sword was just an example?

The example was the point. If you said 'Superman could use use a spell of omni-kill-all-my-enemies' then I might have agreed. I said that there is no conventional weapon or skill that would be more effective than his hands at what his hands do. A neutronium finger-less glove wouldn't make him a better puncher.

Because the sword can do things he CAN'T? Remember? Remember the sword that cut him with a flick? Again (assuming his opponent is as invulnerable as he is), that's powerful as hell.

No, he can do that; I've seen Bizarro Supes split a god in two with a karate chop (like punching, some basic techniques are perfectly useful in their niche); he's just not necessarily as good at it as a magical cut-everything sword against these very specific kinds of opponents. But the advantage is just simply too small and limited compared to what he's giving up, on a long-term wielding basis. And he can cut anyone with a blink before they get anywhere near him with a sword. And his hands can do a million things a sword can't.

I already said that martial arts are useful against someone as powerful and statted as he is, but they would be kryptonian level at least, in order to be useful. Because, hello, he can do things like turn intangible which completely changes the variables involved.

Yes, I fucking got it a long time ago. You're the one who seems to have forgotten that I was advocating "ALL fighting styles" (including any type of weapon) that gives an advantage.

Go ahead, Ctrl+F "all fighting styles". Refresh your memory when I said that, now?

And I told you you were being redundant. Since 'Superman fighting style' would be a fighting style, yes?

This is called a "Begging the question" fallacy. Why not just assume the fight starts with him on the moon, while you're at it?

Why are you assuming he's close enough to be stabbed? Why not assume he's under a red sun, while you're at it? The chances of him spontaneously being within one metre of an enemy is pretty remote, don't you think?

If they're equal in speed and reflexes, then the opponent will see Superman move before any distance is gained at all. Why does Superman suddenly have better reflexes when we're talking about a person either equal to or better than him?

It doesn't matter. The differential is greater. Everything is expanded with super-speedsters. In order for it to stay equal, the sword would also have to get longer.

It's a matter of scaling.

Again, unless his opponent has better ranged weapons. Which many of his opponents do. Next.

So... not swords? If an enemy now has better ranged weapons, how would sword-play give Supes an advantage? You're just giving the enemy the same advantge Supes has, and now it's a laser fight. That's why a sword isn't very useful.

NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT THIS. Next.

...Oh that's it? Well, I guess that's it for me for the night. If you're just going to repeat points I either already stated, already proved wrong, or that no one is talking about, I think we're done.

Your issue is that you've assumed an issue, and so you've put the hate-cart before the reasoning-horse.

If you don't have an issue with what I am arguing, then stop responding to it. You replied to me. And it's just wasting our time.

Maximise available power. Which he does.

Nice try, but that's moving the goalposts. You admitted a while ago that Superman could do better. So, if he's maximizing "available" power, then his fighting style should also emphasize finding NEW power. Again, the entire point to martial arts is continuous improvement.

I told you it was simply an analogy.

Then why the fuck are you bringing Superman into it? I didn't. The analogy, however, that a weapon would improve your fighting ability, was my entire point.

The example was the point. If you said 'Superman could use use a spell of omni-kill-all-my-enemies' then I might have agreed. I said that there is no conventional weapon or skill that would be more effective than his hands at what his hands do. A neutronium finger-less glove wouldn't make him a better puncher.

So then Superman never misses a punch, and it instantly KOs everyone, right? (And no, we're not talking about your Ultra-Mega-Infinity-Pre-Crisis-Superman). We're talking about Superman as he's existed in the DC Universe for decades. For his punch not to be able to get better, it needs to be undodgeable, unblockable, and invincible. If it isn't, it can get better.

No, he can do that; I've seen Bizarro Supes split a god in two with a karate chop; he's just not necessarily as good at it as a magical cut-everything sword against these very specific kinds of opponents.

THEN THE SWORD HAS A USE. You keep saying he's "giving up" some bullshit, but he's not giving up ANYTHING. You act like a sword somehow completely replaces your hand or some shit. As we've already said, if he doesn't need the sword for any particular second, he can just drop it. And you already gave an example of a way he can use it to improve is abilties.

Unless you can say something new, I'm done with this.

And I told you you were being redundant. Since 'Superman fighting style' would be a fighting style, yes?

Oh no. I see the BS you're implying. "Any" fighting style is not "All" fighting styles. The point that you and I disagreeing on is that you claim is that Superman's fighting style is "perfect as it is", which is not remotely the case, because (for the 111001000th time) fighting styles are CONSTANTLY improving.

Why are you assuming he's close enough to be stabbed?

I'm not. The entire point to learning how to fight is to be prepared and ready for ANY situation. Not just one. If Superman is stronger at a distance than he is up close, then he needs to improve his combat at close range. That's all.

It doesn't matter. The differential is greater. Everything is expanded with super-speedsters.

Yes, including reaction speed. There is no plausible reason why Superman would be able to suddenly outmaneuver his foe to put that much distance between the two that fast. The problem with "teh logics" being used here is that you're applying factors to mobility that you're not applying to perception or reaction.

So... not swords?

*Facepalm* The sword was one example. One. Get over it.

Your issue is that you've assumed an issue, and so you've put the hate-cart before the reasoning-horse.

If you don't have an issue with what I am arguing, then stop responding to it. You replied to me. And it's just wasting our time.

Said the pot to the kettle.

@kingzeal:

You should really assume 100% integrity where I'm involved. I argue points because I think they're right, not because I want them to be. (Actually, that's not true, come to think of it. I make arguments for how I'd like things to be with Superman. Let's say instead, that I'm honest in my arguments.)

Nice try, but that's moving the goalposts. You admitted a while ago that Superman could do better. So, if he's maximizing "available" power, then his fighting style should also emphasize finding NEW power. Again, the entire point to martial arts is continuous improvement.

No, I said even if he could it's irrelevant. His strength is not his skill. If all you're talking about is increasing his strength levels, then sure, that's fine. That's not a skill, though, that's just gym time.

Then why the fuck are you bringing Superman into it? I didn't. The analogy, however, that a weapon would improve your fighting ability, was my entire point.

We started at Superman, and I used boxing glove to demonstrate a weapon that wouldn't make me a better puncher. You're the one that went of on a tangent, and getting excited at the prospect of winning an irrelevant argument of using human equipemnt to improve human fighting, which is obviously possible.Stop blaming me for the shit you bring into it.

So then Superman never misses a punch, and it instantly KOs everyone, right? (And no, we're not talking about your Ultra-Mega-Infinity-Pre-Crisis-Superman). We're talking about Superman as he's existed in the DC Universe for decades. For his punch not to be able to get better, it needs to be undodgeable, unblockable, and invincible. If it isn't, it can get better.

For his punch not to get better, it needs to be impossible for him to do better. He's already got his punch technique as practised and developed as it could possibly be. And it looks like you're trying to confuse physical stats for what he can do with those stats again. I think his punch isconventionallyinvincibly powerful, but I didn't say he had undodgable speed.

Look, dude, you're wrong. Either accept it, or move on.

THEN THE SWORD HAS A USE. You keep saying he's "giving up" some bullshit, but he's not giving up ANYTHING. You act like a sword somehow completely replaces your hand or some shit. As we've already said, if he doesn't need the sword for any particular second, he can just drop it. And you already gave an example of a way he can use it to improve is abilties.

Unless you can say something new, I'm done with this.

Stop repeating yourself, and I won't have to repeat my answers. As long as he holds that sword, he's giving up his hand. The sword only offers him one use, of perfect cutting. It's not enough when he has demonstrated no difficulty in chopping through anything with his hand before. And WW's sword has only been demonstrated in past continuities, to hurt him, because he's vulnerableto magic.

And the point is, he doesn't need to learn human level skills. That's the point. Let's assume for a second, that this sword is useful. Then he would then learn to do things with it that a Superman can do with it. He won't go to earth to learn from any of us. He's already surpassed normal humans, and the only people he could learn from would have to be kryptonian level at least.

Oh no. I see the BS you're implying. "Any" fighting style is not "All" fighting styles. The point that you and I disagreeing on is that you claim is that Superman's fighting style is "perfect as it is", which is not remotely the case, because (for the 111001000th time) fighting styles are CONSTANTLY improving.

'Superman fighting style' just meant the fighting style Superman would use. What the hell distinction are you trying to make when it's a completely arbitrary martial art I just arbitrarily named? It could mean anything I want it to be, and what it is is anything Superman would want to apply in the appropriate situation.

That's your problem. I didn't start out with that claim, and my claim was simply that he had perfect physical control, and didn't need to learn things like how to punch. Logically he would be Perfect in all areas he practises with the tools and stats he has (at least on human terms - things like vibrating to other dimensions is stuff he would need to develop), but it makes no difference to my argument. The fact of superiority is enough.

*Facepalm* The sword was one example. One. Get over it.

Then use a good example. It's not the concept that there exists some kind of weapon that would be useful for him, it's the kind of weapon, that is at minor stake here. And the important issue, is the idea that he couldn't competently use any conventional physical weapon. He could. By default.

I didn't object to "weapon", I objected to "sword".

Said the pot to the kettle.

No, we can't both have been the first one to reply. It's all on you, champ.

Okay, I think everybody here needs to take a chill pill and calm the bloody heck down

No, I said even if he could it's irrelevant. His strength is not his skill. If all you're talking about is increasing his strength levels, then sure, that's fine. That's not a skill, though, that's just gym time.

*Bangs head against desk*

Yet more proof you have no idea what you're talking about. You DO KNOW that "gym time" is precisely how fighters increase their skill,right? Gyms. You know, where things like punching bags, weights, and sparring partners are?

"Gym time" is not just "a" skill for a fighter, it's the skill. So yeah, if Superman needs more gym time to increase his abilities, that would be a skill he should implement.

We started at Superman, and I used boxing glove to demonstrate a weapon that wouldn't make me a better puncher.

Which you failed to do, because as I proved, that's exactly what boxing gloves would do. To quote you, use a better example.

He's already got his punch technique as practised and developed as it could possibly be.

No it isn't. If he can improve it with "gym time", then it's not. If he can make his punches better by going to the gym, that would literally make Superman like every fighter that ever existed. If he can go to the gym and get a stronger punch, then it's not as "developed" as it could be. And, since your entire argument is "Superman's strength and muscle control allows him to throw better punches", going to the gym an increasing that ability would by definition develop his punches to be even better.

And the point is, he doesn't need to learn human level skills.

No one said he does.

'Superman fighting style' just meant the fighting style Superman would use. What the hell distinction are you trying to make when it's a completely arbitrary martial art I just arbitrarily named? It could mean anything I want it to be, and what it is is anything Superman would want to apply in the appropriate situation.

That was my entire point. I knew you meant "Superman fighting style" as "the style Superman uses", but that is a pointless tautology. By that definition, if Superman fought like this, it would be the "Superman fighting style" the way you're using the term.

But that would be nonsense wouldn't it? Thus, the idea of this topic is about a hypothetical fighting style that would continuously improve Superman's power and skill.

And the important issue, is the idea that he couldn't competently use any conventional physical weapon. He could. By default.

Okay, source please? Other than your shining testimony, can you provide any source whatsoever that says Superman has mastered every single conventional weapon (or a magical offshoot thereof)?

Please give an actual source. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt, but I'd like to see where this is stated.

*Bangs head against desk*

Yet more proof you have no idea what you're talking about. You DO KNOW that "gym time" is precisely how fighters increase their skill,right? Gyms. You know, where things like punching bags, weights, and sparring partners are?

"Gym time" is not just "a" skill for a fighter, it's the skill. So yeah, if Superman needs more gym time to increase his abilities, that would be a skill he should implement.

So? Superman doesn't need gym-time for skill. He just needs it for strength. (Assuming he needs that, either., and isn't just straight up infinite.)

I know how humans do it, but Superman doesn't need to practise the same way we do. We do it, because we can't do it one at a time, we gotta train skill and strength up together. And you're still missing the point. Whether training will help him or not, he's already far past anything any earth-man can teach him.

Stop acting like this is some kind of complicated science only the elite are in. I've done martial arts on and off for holiday sport (judo, aikido (or whatever the stick one's called - was a while back), not to any serious level) since I was a kid, and my cousin and I used to beat the shit out of each other and break each other bones. And I've sparred plenty of mates with boxing gloves just on the casual. Everyone I know (well, a lot of mates, let's say) is a gym nut, or does martial arts. I personally never felt the need to (beyond for fun), because no-one wants to pick a fight with me any more, I have weights and a punching bag at home, and I'm a Christian besides. I know [the basics] involved in this.

Which you failed to do, because as I proved, that's exactly what boxing gloves would do. To quote you, use a better example.

No, you didn't. You simply gave the uncontroversial assertion that it doesn't hurt the puncher as much, not that it improves the punch itself (or at least, that was the point you 'proved' it to, because that was the extent I agreed with it).

Me; "And the point is, he doesn't need to learn human level skills."

No one said he does.

You are, by asserting he's got something to learn from humans. If this is not what you really believe, then you're conceding the argument.

That was my entire point. I knew you meant "Superman fighting style" as "the style Superman uses", but that is a pointless tautology. By that definition, if Superman fought like this, it would be the "Superman fighting style" the way you're using the term.

But that would be nonsense wouldn't it? Thus, the idea of this topic is about a hypothetical fighting style that would continuously improve Superman's power and skill.

Now, the idea of this topic is just a hypothetical fighting style that he would use. Yes it's a tautology. That's the point. The only meaning it has was to indicate it was in a class of its own, separate from anything we in the real world have developed or are aware of. You decided to argue against something you had absolutely no clue about.

Yes, if he fights in a certain way, that would be his fighting style. I can decide whatever I want that to mean. And the only real definition I've given it was that it would be the kind of stuff that humans can't pull off.

Okay, source please? Other than your shining testimony, can you provide any source whatsoever that says Superman has mastered every single conventional weapon (or a magical offshoot thereof)?

Please give an actual source. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt, but I'd like to see where this is stated.

He doesn't need to master it, that's the point. He doesn't rely on muscle memory and training, he's a walking physics dispenser. Super-computer brain makes training on this basic level completely redundant.

What do you want a source for? This is my theory. I'm giving you my theory on a hypothetical of how Superman should logicallybe, given his experience and his demonstrated ability to use his power without obliterating the city he walks on.You already asserted (or agreed) that Silver Age Superman was invincible, so you already believe he's historically had this kind of ridiculous competency combined with ridiculous power, as I've said. (Ironically, I have heard there's a feat for modern Supes to the effect of him learning ridiculous levels of martial arts, kryptonian+ presumably, but it makes no never mind to me.)

Either you accept it or you don't. It's purely a theoretical discussion.

I don't intend to be disruptive. I'm not upset, I'm just bemused and stubborn. (Also, I'm trying to see if I can get Superman to #1 forum single-handedly. :D)

His fighting style depends mostly of the version we're speeking off.

If it's pre-N52 then he was quite the fighter, he knew MMA, some martial arts, and even some kryptonian fighting forms.

Now in the N52 he's more of a boxer. He punchs and punchs and punchs, that's pretty much what he does. Even though we've seen him training with Diana (aka Wonder Women) we rarely see him do anything like in the past timelines he was able to.

He even trained and learned with Bruce, in various unspecified forms where he even learned about combat by use of pressure points.

New 52 Superman knows none of that. And at the same time is kinda weird he's not a better fighter seeing that the ship that brought him to Earth which had a brainiac processor, and an incredible database of kryptonian culture, apparently had nothing in terms of combat arts, which is double weird seeing that his mother was one badass fighter, because she had once been a part of the military guild.

So? Superman doesn't need gym-time for skill. He just needs it for strength. (Assuming he needs that, either., and isn't just straight up infinite.)

You say that like throwing stronger punches isn't a skill in itself.

I know how humans do it, but Superman doesn't need to practise the same way we do. We do it, because we can't do it one at a time, we gotta train skill and strength up together. And you're still missing the point. Whether training will help him or not, he's already far past anything any earth-man can teach him.

You're the one who mentioned "The Gym", not me.

I know [the basics] involved in this.

Good for you. That doesn't change all the crap you got wrong and continue to get wrong.

No, you didn't. You simply gave the uncontroversial assertion that it doesn't hurt the puncher as much, not that it improves the punch itself (or at least, that was the point you 'proved' it to, because that was the extent I agreed with it).

I flat out fucking told you that it increases the mass (and thus damage of the punch). Go reread what I said.

You are, by asserting he's got something to learn from humans. If this is not what you really believe, then you're conceding the argument.

Or, you're conflating a fallacy by calling every single thing he can learn from humans "street level".

Now, the idea of this topic is just a hypothetical fighting style that he would use. Yes it's a tautology. That's the point.The only meaning it has was to indicate it was in a class of its own, separate from anything we in the real world have developed or are aware of. You decided to argue against something you had absolutely no clue about.

Once again, read my first fucking post here. As I said, a unique fighting style is exactly what Superman would need to develop. However, as I said your argument is "Superman's fighting style is already perfect (or near perfect) because he's Superman", which is false. Even if we call it the "Superman fighting style", it has to have a "theme" or "philosophy" behind it. That's how martial arts work. Judo is about eliminating wasted movement. Aikido is about ending a fight without hurting anyone. And so on and so forth.

Yes, if he fights in a certain way, that would be his fighting style. I can decide whatever I want that to mean.

Not when you're discussing a topic with other people.

He doesn't need to master it, that's the point. He doesn't rely on muscle memory and training, he's a walking physics dispenser. Super-computer brain makes training on this basic level completely redundant.

What do you want a source for? This is my theory. I'm giving you my theory on a hypothetical of how Supermanshould logicallybe, given his experience and his demonstrated ability to use his power without obliterating the city he walks on.You already asserted (or agreed) that Silver Age Superman was invincible, so you already believe he's historically had this kind of ridiculous competency combined with ridiculous power, as I've said. (Ironically, I have heard there's a feat for modern Supes to the effect of him learning ridiculous levels of martial arts, kryptonian+ presumably, but it makes no never mind to me.)

Either you accept it or you don't. It's purely a theoretical discussion.

So you pulled it all out of your ass, like I thought. Thanks. Got it.

@kingzeal:

You say that like throwing stronger punches isn't a skill in itself.

It isn't a skill Superman needs to learn. He's already got it sussed. You don't get that it's different for him. This isn't subconscious or body-level for him, and he doesn't constantly have to re-learn it along with a developing strength level. Your insistence that the limitations of human development apply to him is the problem. Strength is merely a matter of physics for him, the same as him shooting a gun, or using technology, and skill is his ability to utilise those physics. They're entirely separate factors which he applies. (Although on a dramatic level, we'd just treat it as being instinctively gifted. I think that's actually a valid take.)

The fact is that evenif he has these physical limitations of control which he needs to overcome, he's already reduced them to an infinitesimal fraction (as I originally stated in my 'experience' and 'practising his whole life' argument). If you want to argue that someone with 99.99999 infinitely recurring % of perfect technique needs to practise it more, that's perfectly fine with me, it's a valid opinion. It's just both speculative and pedantic, and doesn't in any way change my argument that he's far above human levels of relevant tutelage. His powers aren't human, his training (in a martial art) would be different, not to mention better.

Good for you. That doesn't change all the crap you got wrong and continue to get wrong.

Like what?

I flat out fucking told you that it increases the mass (and thus damage of the punch). Go reread what I said.

Except the glove also softens the blow, and spreads it out. Thus, it doesn't. That was partially the justification of boxing gloves in the first place. The fact that it's not very good at it, isn't the point. The slight mass increase isn't enough to compensate for the softer-than-bone fabric. The only advantage that boxing gloves give is the lesser restraint of the boxer, that's it. That advantage is purely a psychological one, and nothing to do with "mass-improved" punch impact. The mass of the glove also partially absorbs the impact, and proportionately decreases the speed of the strike. It's not a magical 'impact mass for free' glove.

The fact is that what you told me, was wrong.

Or, you're conflating a fallacy by calling every single thing he can learn from humans "street level".

The fallacy is yours. You argued against a purely imaginary martial art, and your argument was simply that he would instead be using martial arts, so your argument made no sense.

Yes, of course everything he can learn from humans is street level, because humans are street level.

Once again, read my first fucking post here. As I said, a unique fighting style is exactly what Superman would need to develop. However, as I said your argument is "Superman's fighting style is already perfect (or near perfect) because he's Superman", which is false. Even if we call it the "Superman fighting style", it has to have a "theme" or "philosophy" behind it. That's how martial arts work. Judo is about eliminating wasted movement. Aikido is about ending a fight without hurting anyone. And so on and so forth.

Dude, your posts aren't hard to understand. They're just wrong, irrelevant or redundant. It was your failure to read my post which led you to this whirl-wind tail-chasing. I started my first post, by saying that Superman should have a unique (creative) fighting style, and a super one. I didn't saying his fighting style was perfect, I said he was perfectly competent with street level fighting. Things that rely on conventional physics are things he is perfectly competent at by default.

My argument is that he didn't need to learn things like how to punch because that's a matter of the most basic physics, and his super-computer brain puts him on a level where he automatically knows this on the spot. He's better than humans at this, just accept it as a premise.

Yes, I already gave you the theme. Superhero. Science. Stuff that Superman does. The only thing that I explained about the concept is that things like punching and kicking would barely cover the first 0.1% of Superman's capabilities in combat, that Superman would be creative with his powers.

Not when you're discussing a topic with other people.

Yes, I can. I made it up. You didn't challenge anything relevant about it. You didn't even realise it existed let alone had a meaningful argument about it.

So you pulled it all out of your ass, like I thought. Thanks. Got it.

Are you looking for some kind of reassurance that you're not in the wrong? This whole thread is asking for theory. You are offering a theory by asserting he needs to learn things like how to punch. It's all ass-pull, but as you've conceded, my argument's based on logic. Not to mention, we actually do seeSuperman using his powers creatively (or at least impressively) in-universe even now. So even if we said he was incompetent at street level martial arts, my original post still stands. He's not a street leveller.

You already agreed that Superman I was talking about existed, so you've got no case. All I have to do is say "he should be like Silver Age Superman" (not my argument btw), and you would then have to accept your own testimony as a source.

Here's a quote from the original post: "Does he use melee, freestyle fighting, street fighting, or a type of boxing. If you have any ideas or speculations post them here."

Everyone's offering their opinion, including what they think it should be. This is the thread you're in, so stop complaining about it.

It isn't a skill Superman needs to learn. He's already got it sussed. You don't get that it's different for him.

No, I get that just fine. What I don't agree with is how you keep making up rules about how he's different and then, when asked for a source, start backpedaling. Okay, I get it: your version of Superman is perfect or near-perfect with no need to practice or get better or anything. But your version of Superman is not the only one, nor is it the one everyone else who follows the character cares about or wants to see. The fact that you keep insisting that "NO. This is the way it is and the way it should be" is the problem.

The fact is that evenif he has these physical limitations of control which he needs to overcome, he's already reduced them to an infinitesimal fraction (as I originally stated in my 'experience' and 'practising his whole life' argument). If you want to argue that someone with 99.99999 infinitely recurring % of perfect technique needs to practise it more, that's perfectly fine with me, it's a valid opinion. It's just both speculative and pedantic, and doesn't in any way change my argument that he's far above human levels of relevant tutelage. His powers aren't human, his training (in a martial art) would be different, not to mention better.

Which, again, makes this about your Superman, who apparently can't and won't ever lose a fight.

Like what?

See below.

I flat out fucking told you that it increases the mass (and thus damage of the punch). Go reread what I said.

Except the glove also softens the blow, and spreads it out.

No it doesn't.

I linked you to a page that flat out told you that a boxing glove improves the force and strength of a blow to the face in every way. If you believe it to be different, what's your source on this? And don't say "common sense" or some bullshit like that. I gave you proof. Now where's yours?

The fallacy is yours. You argued against a purely imaginary martial art, and your argument was simply that he would instead be using martial arts, so your argument made no sense.

When did I do this? Please quote me.

Yes, of course everything he can learn from humans is street level, because humans are street level.

Karate Kid would like a word with you. His entire gimmick is that he's a normal human who fights Superman-level foes with technique alone.

Also, again this goes into "my interpretation is the ONLY interpretation" because there are flat out examples of people like Batman, Wonder Woman, and others teaching Superman fighting techniques. In other words, Superman can learn from them and improve upon it with his superior abilities. That, in fact, is the entire premise of this trope.

Dude, your posts aren't hard to understand. They're just wrong, irrelevant or redundant. It was your failure to read my post which led you to this whirl-wind tail-chasing. I started my first post, by saying that Superman should have a unique (creative) fighting style, and asuper one. I didn't saying his fighting style was perfect, I said he was perfectly competent with street level fighting. Things that rely onconventional physics are things he is perfectly competent at by default.

My argument is that he didn't need to learn things like how to punch because that's a matter of the most basic physics, and his super-computer brain puts him on a level where he automatically knows this on the spot. He's better than humans at this, just accept it as a premise.

Yes, I already gave you the theme. Superhero. Science. Stuff that Superman does. The only thing that I explained about the concept is that things like punching and kicking would barely cover the first 0.1% of Superman's capabilities in combat, that Superman would be creative with his powers.

Again, see above: there are plenty of stories that confirm Superman's abilities do NOT give him perfect fighting abilties. His enhanced physique and intellect do not perfectly give him the ability to master any skill he wants at any time. Again, maybe in YOUR perfect Superman story, sure. But lots of others, including stories that other people have read and enjoy, no.

Yes, I can. I made it up. You didn't challenge anything relevant about it. You didn't even realise it existed let alone had a meaningful argument about it.

The fuck are you on about? Again, if you're going to only argue based on your own personal rules and definitions and ignore everyone else's, that's a shitty debate.

@kingzeal:

No, I get that just fine. What I don't agree with is how you keep making up rules about how he's different and then, when asked for a source, start backpedaling. Okay, I get it: yourversion of Superman is perfect or near-perfect with no need to practice or get better or anything. But your version of Superman is not the only one, nor is it the one everyone else who follows the character cares about or wants to see. The fact that you keep insisting that "NO. This is the way it is and the way it should be" is the problem.

What are you talking about? This is my theory. I'm the source. You might as well ask me to buy you dinner for all the relevance it has. There is no back-pedaling, you're just asking for things I never offered in the first place.

And stop acting like you're talking for anyone but yourself. I offered my personal opinion, and others have theirs. It's a big happy board of people and their opinions.

You have a problem that I have an opinion? Grow up. The thing is, my original post applies to the current Superman. All Supermans. It was the simple statement that his martial art would largely involve his super-powers. You're trying to tell me this isn't your Superman?

Which, again, makes this about your Superman, who apparently can't and won't ever lose a fight.

I already said this isn't the case, several times, so I'm going to go ahead and assuming you're either forgetful or a liar. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt though, since it's a long thread.

No it doesn't.

I linked you to a page that flat out told you that a boxing glove improves the force and strength of a blow to the face in every way. If you believe it to be different, what's your source on this? And don't say "common sense" or some bullshit like that. I gave you proof. Now where's yours?

You have something against common sense?

Ah, yes, you are partially right, because of the damage occurring to the brain, which has has nothing to do with the damage to the face itself.

So, I retract. You were right. The glove is more damaging. But it still doesn't improve the impact to the face.

From your link:

"Since gloves spread the impact of a blow, the recipient of a punch is less likely to be blinded, have their teeth knocked out or their jaw broken. However, gloves do not lessen the force applied to the brain as it rattles inside the skull from a heavy blow. In fact, they make matters worse by adding 10oz to the weight of the fist."

Wikipedia, for completeness:

"The impact of gloves on the injuries caused during a fight is a controversial issue. Hitting to the head was less common in the bare-knuckle era because of the risk of hurting the boxer's hand. Gloves reduce the amount of cuts caused, but British Medical Association research has stated that gloves do not reduce brain injuries and may even increase them, because the main cause of injury is acceleration and deceleration of the head, and fighters wearing gloves are able to punch harder to the head. Gloves may reduce the amount of eye injuries, especially if they are thumbless, but retinal tears and detached retinas still occur to boxers wearing modern gloves."

So, brain - yes, face - no.

When did I do this? Please quote me.

Wait, are you now trying to claim that you don't think Superman would be using martial arts? What the heck?

Me: "Dunno what style you'd call it, but it'd be top tier super martial arts level."

You:"I can't disagree with you more, SuperMudz."

"Superman, if he's really gonna take it upon himself to fight crime (especially super-crime), should learn how to fight."

"My point isn't "does Superman know how to fight". I know he does."

Then you shifted into:

You: "So yeah, if Superman isn't ACTIVELY developing fighting techniques to make use of/counter things like this, he's a crappy martial artist. But as you said it's a writing issue: writers want Superman to depend SOLELY on his powers, which makes no sense considering that his lifestyle puts him in grave danger."

My OP: "He's a master of superhero arts or "super-powered martial arts" or "Superman fighting style"."

You (later):"As I said, a unique fighting style is exactly what Superman would need to develop."

(Bolds are mine.) So you agreed with my point, that logically he shouldbe a good martial artist. You agreed with my argument of 'experience'. That's some out-of-universe logic you had going for you there.

However, in re-reading, I see I've also made a mistake. You actually did say that according to current canon, Superman wasn't a martial artist because there were other people who were better than him.

"Either Superman knows how to throw a perfect punch with no wasted movement or he doesn't. If he does, he knows martial arts. If he doesn't, he does NOT know martial arts. And, as far as canon storytelling is concerned, Superman does NOT know martial arts. As I said, when he is placed opposite of someone who is just as strong, just as fast and just as agile as he is, Superman is displayed as having inferior skill. That means he does NOT know martial arts, because the entire crux of martial arts is to know how to perform for maximum results with minimum effort."

The reason I misinterpreted most of this, is because it's retarded. Perfect or he doesn't know martial arts? And I expect you understood that, because I remember you later saying it's about being able to improve, which is not the definition of a martial art, and didn't contradict my post.

But I will accept some of the blame, here. I did contribute to a mutual misunderstanding.

Karate Kid would like a word with you. His entire gimmick is that he's a normal human who fights Superman-level foes with technique alone.

Also, again this goes into "my interpretation is the ONLY interpretation" because there are flat out examples of people like Batman, Wonder Woman, and others teaching Superman fighting techniques. In other words, Superman can learn from them and improve upon it with his superior abilities. That, in fact, is the entire premise of this trope.

Karate Kid always had a dumb and contrived gimmick, but at least he used martial arts from over all the universe. He's not even street level. And he practises these martial arts, because it helps him. And KK was about as human as Batman is. He took on Superboy with "super-karate", and it still didn't make him a winner. Tbh, he was kind of a prototype nu-Batman, being a human that performed at superhuman levels. He even knows 'every martial art in the 31st century'.

No he can't learn from people like Batman, because their martial arts are based on the limitations of being human and bound by gravity.

And let's assume he can, and then can improve on it. This doesn't bother me in the least. I'm just saying it would be easy, and even if he isn't super-computer competent, he should already have surpassed them or any human. You're making a big deal out of him being able to learn how to throw a punch when he can do quantum physics with his fist. It's ridiculous. It's not a consideration.

(Wonder Woman is different, since I forgot in current continuity she's actually been trained by the God of War. That's superhuman level martial training (presumably, I mean who knows).)

Again, see above: there are plenty of stories that confirm Superman's abilities do NOT give him perfect fighting abilties. His enhanced physique and intellect do not perfectly give him the ability to master any skill he wants at any time. Again, maybe in YOUR perfect Superman story, sure. But lots of others, including stories that other people have read and enjoy, no.

So? There are stories where he was literally invincible, and better than everyone ever. Are we just talking about what we like now? Because I thought you were against personal Superman preferences.

His super-computer brain (plus knowledge of physics I should say) gives him the ability to make 'mastering' conventional skills redundant. As soon as he picks up a physical object, and even before then, he should be super-competent with it. That's actually really friggin' cool. He's not Batman, and I don't need him to experience the same failures and limitations, I enjoy seeing him evolve out his powers into fantastically ridiculous uses. He's the ultimate epitome of the competent man.

I didn't say any skill, I'm not sure why you keep flaking out into these massive hyperboles. I said things based on conventional physics, and human-level endeavours. Anything he didn't know, he could learn 5 seconds after deciding he needed to know it with super-speed and intelligence. It's colouring blocks, from his perspective.

The fuck are you on about? Again, if you're going to only argue based on your own personal rules and definitions and ignore everyone else's, that's a shitty debate.

It was the rules and definitions of the OP, genius, the thread-starter. You're the only one acting like a special snowflake.

The thing is, my original post applies to the current Superman. All Supermans. It was the simple statement that his martial art would largely involve his super-powers. You're trying to tell me this isn't your Superman?

How does it apply to "all" Supermans? You said "martial arts are redundant to his powers". That is demonstrably false when there are versions of Superman who have learned fighting techniques from humans.

I already said this isn't the case, several times, so I'm going to go ahead and assuming you're either forgetful or a liar. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt though, since it's a long thread.

Except you say "Superman has maximum skill', which is fucking stupid because "maximum skill" means you have the ability to do anything you want with no room for improvement. If his fighting ability has no room for improvement, and allows him to perform ANY skill, then he is functionally unbeatable. I mentioned that you can trick him with kryptonite weapons. You said "No, because he can see that coming". I said, "You can cut him with magical weapons". You said, "No because you can't get close to him. "I said, if you have a character who is just as fast, strong and tough, Superman can still get hurt or lose." You say, "Yeah but he's Superman. His reputation is to be invincible".

So yeah, I think you're the forgetful liar.

So you agreed with my point, that logically he shouldbe a good martial artist. You agreed with my argument of 'experience'. That's some out-of-universe logic you had going for you there.

Uh, not really. It's established in-universe that Superman is a decent fighter, at least.

The reason I misinterpreted most of this, is because it's retarded. Perfect or he doesn't know martial arts? And I expect you understood that, because I remember you later saying it's about being able to improve, which is not the definition of a martial art, and didn't contradict my post.

No. You're flat out misinterpreting what I said. Martial arts is a journey toward perfection; however, perfection will likely never be reached. Martial arts is about winning a battle, ending a battle, and doing so as quickly, as harmlessly, and as effortlessly as possible. To explain what I said, if Superman is already a "perfect fighter" (or even near-perfect), then he's a martial artist. If Superman is not perfect, and has no desire NOT to be perfect, then he ISN'T a martial artist. Knowing some fighting techniques doesn't mean you're a martial artist. As you yourself said, even a child can learn how to punch. That doesn't make a child a "martial artist".

So, to sum up, the point to being a martial artist is to journey towards being perfect, but you will likely fail. If you are not making that journey, you are NOT a martial artist.

And let's assume he can, and then can improve on it. This doesn't bother me in the least.

Then fucking stop right here, because there's no longer an argument. Because, again, despite what you WANT to be true, some versions of Superman (including the pre-52 one) learned fighting arts from humans. If you don't have a problem with that, then we're done here. Because my entire point has been he should learn anything he can from any sources he can, human or otherwise.

@kingzeal:

How does it apply to "all" Supermans? You said "martial arts are redundant to his powers". That is demonstrably false when there are versions of Superman who have learned fighting techniques from humans.

Because they're all super. 'Demonstrably false' means nothing when it's all made up. We're talking about the logic, stop vacillating between logic and fiction.

I said human level martial arts are redundant for his powers. Are you going to teach kung fu to Dr. Manhattan? Why not? Because it's stupid.

Except you say "Superman has maximum skill', which is fucking stupid because "maximum skill" means you have the ability to do anything you want with no room for improvement. If his fighting ability has no room for improvement, and allows him to perform ANY skill, then he is functionally unbeatable. I mentioned that you can trick him with kryptonite weapons. You said "No, because he can see that coming". I said, "You can cut him with magical weapons". You said, "No because you can't get close to him. "I said, if you have a character who is just as fast, strong and tough, Superman can still get hurt or lose." You say, "Yeah but he's Superman. His reputation is to be invincible".

So yeah, I think you're the forgetful liar.

Human level, or conventional, skills, and we've already gone over the difference between competence and omnipotence (i.e Mxyzpltlk). Which you agreed with.

No, that's absolutely nothing like how the conversation went. I told you his reputation was to be invincible because it's true. I was talking about the narrative. It's "Batman always wins".

Uh, not really. It's established in-universe that Superman is a decent fighter, at least.

Which had nothing to do with your argument that his inferior ability made no logical sense, given his experience. Can't play it both ways.

No. You're flat out misinterpreting what I said. Martial arts is a journey toward perfection; however, perfection will likely never be reached. Martial arts is about winning a battle, ending a battle, and doing so as quickly, as harmlessly, and as effortlessly as possible. To explain what I said, if Superman is already a "perfect fighter" (or even near-perfect), then he's a martial artist. If Superman is not perfect, and has no desire NOT to be perfect, then he ISN'T a martial artist. Knowing some fighting techniques doesn't mean you're a martial artist. As you yourself said, even a child can learn how to punch. That doesn't make a child a "martial artist".

So, to sum up, the point to being a martial artist is to journey towards being perfect, but you will likely fail. If you are not making that journey, you are NOT a martial artist.

Except that had nothing to do with my argument. Stop with this 'omni-perfect' bull-shit, you've already agreed that being perfectly competent in one area of power would not make him omnipotent.

Of course he's 'journeying toward perfection' he's just not doing it with human-level martial arts, because he's already passed it. He skipped ahead of that whole 'human' part of the journey.

And you said: "The point I'm making is that the level of skill he has at fighting is insufficient for the sheer amount of shit he expects to face in his crime-fighting career."

So your 'point' seems to go all over the place.

And yes, knowing techniques makes you a martial artist. You yourself said it, you just said that if he wasn't learning to get better he was a crappy martial artist.

Martials arts isn't complicated, or even some philosophical dream, it's simply the art of fighting.

Then fucking stop right here, because there's no longer an argument. Because, again, despite what you WANT to be true, some versions of Superman (including the pre-52 one) learned fighting arts from humans. If you don't have a problem with that, then we're done here. Because my entire point has been he should learn anything he can from any sources he can, human or otherwise.

Look, you pontificating twit, Superman isn't human, why are you making him learn human arts? It has nothing to do with what I want to be true, and everything to do with the fact that it's stupid.

I have no problem with it, because it makes no difference. Either he knows it, or he can learn it with suffocating ease. Maybe he didn't know that the salad fork goes to the left, whatever. It's not difficult. A human martial art would be limiting to him, therefore undesirable.

Oh, he should learn from anything he can? What an exceptional point of view. The point is, Grandma already knows how to suck eggs.

(And stop saying 'then we're done here' and coming back. It confuses my delicate senses.)

Because they're all super. 'Demonstrably false' means nothing when it's all made up. We're talking about the logic, stop vacillating between logic and fiction.

I said human level martial arts are redundant for his powers. Are you going to teach kung fu to Dr. Manhattan? Why not? Because it's stupid.

What the fuck are you talking about? That has nothing to do with what I said. You said your original post "applies to all Supermen", when it that is impossible, because stories flat out say Superman's fighting style improved because of techniques he learned from Batman or others. Your post cannot apply to "all" Superman when there are flat out version of the character it doesn't apply to. It doesn't matter if you think it's stupid. It is what it is. The fact that you call it stupid because you don't like it doesn't change the fact that it is what it is.

And Superman is not Dr. Manhattan. Dr. Manhattan was literally invincible. If your argument is "teaching someone invincible martial arts is stupid" then what I just said is proven true, because that is a perfect example of "maximum skill".

Human level, or conventional, skills, and we've already gone over the difference between competence and omnipotence (i.e Mxyzpltlk). Which you agreed with.

No, that's absolutely nothing like how the conversation went. I told you his reputation was to be invincible because it's true. I was talking about the narrative. It's "Batman always wins".

You're backpedaling. Your entire statement was based on the argument that Superman being "invincible" is normal because "come on dude he's Superman".

But fuck it, you want to keep denying that after I caught you in another lie? Cool. I'm done discussing that with you.

Look, you pontificating twit, Superman isn't human, why are you making him learn human arts? It has nothing to do with what I want to be true, and everything to do with the fact that it's stupid.

Because you don't get to decide what's stupid, you self-righteous fanboy.

I have no problem with it, because it makes no difference. Either he knows it, or he can learn it with suffocating ease. Maybe he didn't know that the salad fork goes to the left, whatever. It's not difficult. A human martial art would be limiting to him, therefore undesirable.

No one was talking about difficulty, but please move the goalposts some more. You're already agreeing with my point, but just don't want to admit you lost.

(And stop saying 'then we're done here' and coming back. It confuses my delicate senses.)

Doesn't seem to take much to confuse you.

Oh and I missed this stupidity before:

So, brain - yes, face - no.

Did you literally miss the part you quoted where it stated that injury to the brain was the most devastating part to a punch, and that since the glove INCREASES that, it in fact makes the punch more effective?

Your "but it doesn't cut the face" bullshit is pointless because that isn't the point of the damn punch. Literally EVERY sentence of that which said that cuts were lessened came with "BUT" which flat out told you that brain injury, and injury to the eye sockets, which are the more serious injuries are increased. It even fucking says that gloves made punches to the face more common, since it reduced injuries to the hands.

If you don't see that as "improving" a punch, you are goddamn hopeless.

What the fuck are you talking about? That has nothing to do with what I said. You said your original post "applies to all Supermen", when it that is impossible, because stories flat out say Superman's fighting style improved because of techniques he learned from Batman or others. Your post cannot apply to "all" Superman when there are flat out version of the character it doesn't apply to. It doesn't matter if you think it's stupid. It is what it is. The fact that you call it stupid because you don't like it doesn't change the fact that it is what it is.

And Superman is not Dr. Manhattan. Dr. Manhattan was literally invincible. If your argument is "teaching someone invincible martial arts is stupid" then what I just said is proven true, because that is a perfect example of "maximum skill".

No, it's not impossible, because it's logical. Supermen are super by definition.

And in every iteration he has had enough control to be able to pass as Clark Kent, and to use his super-powers without killing everything around him. That is all Supermans (okay, most Supermans). (Though odd that you keep appealing to them, when you're so bitchy about Silver Age Supes.)

If he learns skills from Batman, it's stupid. He doesn't need to balance, when he has anti-gravity. He doesn't need human-intelligent Batman to teach him how to use things.

You'll have to accept it's simply arbitrary writing.

If it doesn't matter if I think it's stupid what are you whining about?

And Superman is not Batman. No, my argument is that it would be redundant. Teaching him human martial arts is stupid. If Dr. Manhattan faced off against another Dr. Manhattan, then they would never be using kung fu to fight each other. And again, I was talking about human level martial arts. Are you honestly failing to absorb this, or are you just being tactically stupid?

You're backpedaling. Your entire statement was based on the argument that Superman being "invincible" is normal because "come on dude he's Superman".

But fuck it, you want to keep denying that after I caught you in another lie? Cool. I'm done discussing that with you.

I said 'come on, dude, he's Superman' because you were getting (or I thought you might be) upset at the notion that he had surpassed human martial arts. It has historically been his thing, and you admitted it, and started spewing to the effect of 'this isn't the same Superman! Your Superman is stupid and different! But I'm still going to argue anyway!'

I have never lied once in any of my posts. You're just an unstable psychotically obsessive moron who can't understand the argument, and has to fabricate my arguments to continue getting pissy at them.

Just because you want me to be back-pedaling, or wrong, or whatever the heck you're so desperately grasping for, doesn't make it the case.

Because you don't get to decide what's stupid, you self-righteous fanboy.

But you do? You're obviously far less rational, I really don't trust your opinion. Especially since you agreed his inferior ability makes no sense, and that my argument's based on logic, and that the comic contradicts that.

No one was talking about difficulty, but please move the goalposts some more. You're already agreeing with my point, but just don't want to admit you lost.

This was where the goal-posts started. You made this huge deal about Invincible Superman, when my original point was simply lots-of-powers-to-use Superman.

I'm being generous in saying that even if he wasn't perfectly physically competent (or at least post-humanly competent), he would be in a non-significant time. He still wouldn't need human level martial arts.

You're just getting over-excited because I'm being nice. And also because you don't understand the point. (Or maybe you do, but you're just too invested in the argument.)

Did you literally miss the part you quoted where it stated that injury to the brain was the most devastating part to a punch, and that since the glove INCREASES that, it in fact makes the punch more effective?

Your "but it doesn't cut the face" bullshit is pointless because that isn't the point of the damn punch. Literally EVERY sentence of that which said that cuts were lessened came with "BUT" which flat out told you that brain injury, and injury to the eye sockets, which are the more serious injuries are increased.

If you don't see that as "improving" a punch, you are goddamn hopeless.

I conceded it improves the punch. But what you said about improving the impact to the face was wrong. If the glove gave the other guy AIDS, then it would be completely lethal, but it wouldn't improve the impact to the face.

And no, it said damage to the eyes was decreased but could still occur: "Gloves may reduce the amount of eye injuries, especially if they are thumbless, but retinal tears and detached retinasstill occur to boxers wearing modern gloves."

I retracted my position, but you're still whining about it.

Doesn't seem to take much to confuse you.

Yeah, illogic usually does it.

You'll have to accept it's simply arbitrary writing.

So is Superman, the fucking character period. Everything about Superman, and comics in general, is "arbitrary writing". The fact that you think that your theories are what's "logical" and anything that defies them is "stupid" is your problem and no one else's.

Though odd that you keep appealing to them, when you're so bitchy about Silver Age Supes.

The fuck are you talking about? When have I ever complained about Silver Age Superman?

I said 'come on, dude, he's Superman' because you were getting (or I thought you might be) upset at the notion that he had surpassed human martial arts. It has historically been his thing, and you admitted it, and started spewing to the effect of 'this isn't the same Superman! Your Superman is stupid and different!

Please quote when I said your Superman is stupid and different.

However, it IS a fact that Superman is and has been different. You're the one who has called every instance of Superman not doing what you think he should be "stupid". But way to project.

But you do?

Never said I did. You're the only person who has ever called another incarnation of Superman "stupid" or "arbitrary" here. At worst, I've called your version of Superman irrelevant because not everyone will agree, and many stories are incredibly different. Those stories aren't "stupid" just because you called them such.

I conceded it improves the punch. But what you said about improving the impact to the face was wrong. If the glove gave the other guy AIDS, then it would be completely lethal, but it wouldn't improve the impact to the face.

Er, no. Since this seems to be above you, let me explain the point. Boxing gloves increase the mass and force of a punch to the face. I never said it does more damage to the face itself. The way physics works (since, you, you love "teh logics" but don't seem to understand it) is that the force which hits face travels to the brain, where it does increased damage. Let me repeat that: it increases the force of a punch to the face, which in turn does damage to the brain (by acceleration and deceleration of the head, as stated in your source). Your source, ALSO says, "fighters wearing gloves are able to punch harder to the head" which is flat out saying what I said.

Your previous point said it doesn't improve "damage to the face itself", which I never fucking said. I said it improves impact to the face, which it does. It's just so happens that brain is what is damaged by that force, not the face. But that's all that matters, because the damage to the brain (and eye sockets and such) is what makes the punch effective as stated by both YOUR source and MINE.

Again: IMPACT of a blow to the face =/= DAMAGE to the face.

@kingzeal:

So is Superman, the fucking character period. Everything about Superman, and comics in general, is "arbitrary writing". The fact that you think that your theories are what's "logical" and anything that defies them is "stupid" is your problem and no one else's.

Yes, it's arbitrary. You said I was using logic, and that it contradicted the comic. Yes, if something defies logic it's by definition stupid.

If it's just my problem, then why are you making it yours?

That's the whole point of these thread and site, to talk about what we feel like talking about in relation to these arbitrary stories. If you can't handle that, then you shouldn't be commenting, you should just be reading the comics.

The fuck are you talking about? When have I ever complained about Silver Age Superman?

Did I say you complained about him? I said you were bitchy about him. Though specifically you were being bitchy about "Ultra-Mega-Infinity-Pre-Crisis-Superman", because you keep bleeding out your vagina about Mr. Invincible Superman, which Silver Age Superman was.

Please quote when I said your Superman is stupid and different.

However, it IS a fact that Superman is and has been different. You're the one who has called every instance of Superman not doing what you think he should be "stupid". But way to project.

Please quote when I said you said it. If you're going to be pedantic, it can work both ways. If Superman is and has been different, then what's the issue? That my different Superman is different from your different Superman?

I criticised specific instances of writing,why are you acting like I made off with your wife? You brought up the scene, and I criticised it. Big whoop.

But if you'd like the quotes I was thinking of, here's a couple:

"So then Superman never misses a punch, and it instantly KOs everyone, right? (And no, we're not talking about your Ultra-Mega-Infinity-Pre-Crisis-Superman)."

"Which, again, makes this about your Superman, who apparently can't and won't ever lose a fight."

If you think 'my Superman' is not stupid, and I've mischaracterised your attitude, then I'll accept that and apologise.

Never said I did. You're the only person who has ever called another incarnation of Superman "stupid" or "arbitrary" here. At worst, I've called your version of Superman irrelevant because not everyone will agree, and many stories are incredibly different. Those stories aren't "stupid" just because you called them such.

When did I call any incarnation of Superman stupid or arbitrary? The writing has been stupid and arbitrary many times, of course.

See, here's the thing, if you think my Superman is irrelevant for the daft reason that 'not everyone will agree' then why are you bothering to argue it? What's the bee in your bonnet?

I didn't even say the stories were stupid. The inability of Superman to use his natural senses for plot reasons was.

Of course many stories are incredibly different. I read a story where Superman was a communist, or wielded an omnipotent super-sword. But I already said in my second post that I was discussing on the basis of the classical mythos I grew up with. "My Superman" is just as valid as yours, I see no reason to change it just because others have different preferences. There's no law forbidding me to prefer the Supes I do. And before that, in the OP, it wasn't even about 'my Superman'; it was merely the characterisation of his martial art as not a human martial art.

But I don't need SA Supes. Just these objective super-powers:

- Super-speed

- Super-intelligence / Super-computer brain

- Super-senses

- Anti-gravity

Give him all the capabilities I've been discussing. Take New 52. Supes learned how to do surgery in seconds of speed-reading, and performed it with a finger-nail. He used his eyes and brain are an interferometer and computer, doing years worth of human-computer level calculations. He helped WW split an atom with a sword.

These are all post-human tier capabilities, and he should logically have the precision and competency I argued.

Look, let me put it this way. They can write Superman as they like, and while Superman learning human martial arts is conceptually silly, it could be fun for a story. Drama is a completely different subject. I believe that logically Superman should already be absolutely competent in anything human-level, but it is pretty arbitrary.

What my position is, is that he would have at best a few basic techniques that anyone would consider human level, such as punching etc, and then the other 99.9% of his Martial Art set would be utilising his powers to accomplish things you'd never see in any human martial art. His martial art as a whole, would be developed around the premise of Superman, not normal-man.

Is this an acceptable position to you? If it is, then I would satisfied to conclude the debate. I am getting a little tired of it. I have a week-end to enjoy.

Er, no. Since this seems to be above you, let me explain the point. Boxing gloves increase the mass and force of a punch to the face. I never said it does more damage to the face itself.The way physics works (since, you, you love "teh logics" but don't seem to understand it) is that the force which hits face travels to the brain, where it does increased damage. Let me repeat that: it increases the force of a punch to the face, which in turn does damage to the brain (by acceleration and deceleration of the head, as stated in your source). Your source, ALSO says, "fighters wearing gloves are able to punch harder to the head" which is flat out saying what I said.

Your previous point said it doesn't improve "damage to the face itself", which I never fucking said. I said it improves impact to the face, which it does. It's just so happens that brain is what is damaged by that force, not the face. But that's all that matters, because the damage to the brain (and eye sockets and such) is what makes the punch effective as stated by both YOUR source and MINE.

Again: IMPACT of a blow to the face =/= DAMAGE to the face.

As bitchy as you're being about it, I have to concede you're right. I already supported or conceded many aspects of this already, but I am willing to give a full apology for not reading and comprehending your argument adequately, and accept responsibility.

I believed you were talking about the physics of the fist in relation of what it was specifically impacting. E.g. as if he was punching a wall. This was a wrong assumption.

I already knew that the damage to the face was less, and that gloved fighters punched harder due to psychology and so I dismissed the rest of your argument.

I failed to realise that the significant factor was the brain, and that the mass was significant in this regard, and this was the basis of your argument.

You were right. Boxing gloves makes the punch more effective. I was wrong, and I apologise for my failure to understand your argument.

Yes, it's arbitrary. You said I was using logic, and that it contradicted the comic. Yes, if something defies logic it's by definition stupid.

You're the only person calling your own opinion "logic". As I said, you don't get to proclaim what logic is.

Did I say you complained about him? I said you were bitchy about him. Though specifically you were being bitchy about "Ultra-Mega-Infinity-Pre-Crisis-Superman", because you keep bleeding out your vagina about Mr. Invincible Superman, which Silver Age Superman was.

Oh look, misogynistic insults, too. You're a real winner.

Silver Age Superman wasn't literally "invincible". He was exceptionally powerful to the point of disbelief, and he usually won without effort, but he still had problems, had things he couldn't do, and sometimes (rarely) got hurt in fights. That, by definition, does NOT make him "invincible". You, on the other hand, implied that being "invincible" is what Superman is and what Superman should be. Thus why he's "Ultra Mega Infinity" and not just Pre-Crisis Superman.

When did I call any incarnation of Superman stupid or arbitrary? The writing has been stupid and arbitrary many times, of course.

That's splitting hairs. Calling a story with a version of Superman stupid or arbitrary is the entire point. It makes no difference if you're specifically calling the character or the story they appear in stupid or "arbitrary".

What my position is, is that he would have at best a few basic techniques that anyone would consider human level, such as punching etc, and then the other 99.9% of his Martial Art set would be utilising his powers to accomplish things you'd never see in any human martial art. His martial art as a whole, would be developed around the premise of Superman, not normal-man.

Is this an acceptable position to you? If it is, then I would satisfied to conclude the debate. I am getting a little tired of it. I have a week-end to enjoy.

You already know what my position is, since I told you several replies ago. I don't care WHAT Superman learns or what writers say improves his skills. For all I care, learning how to paint a house could teach him something new about fighting (akathe plot to The Karate Kid). I don't care what he learns or where he learns it from.

All I think is that Superman does need to constantly seek to improve his fighting ability, since his life and sometimes literally the life of the entire world (or universe) depend on it. Beyond that, I don't really care what it is, so long as it's entertaining to read.

@rumble_man: what's that from?

Superman being weak or susceptible to magic is dumb, I mean he has every other advantage over the laws of physics, why not etheral energy stuff?

i hate the way that they portray superman. he is supposed to be a master combatant. he was trained under batman, ww, and mongul jr. he also is supposed to know kryptonian martial arts. however, he never uses these skills in a battle because he will be almost unbeatable.

@psyron: second pic, super captain america ....