@enzo991 said:

@supermudz:All this wall of text tells me is "Superman strongest there is because that's how I believe it should be". When Superman was created, he was the only superhero back then, so his powers worked, and even then he wasn't nearly as powerful as he is now, so it doesn't make sense to power him up even further, when there are hundreds of other superheroes that should also share the spotlight, but get pushed aside to give Supes another power.

So giving him a different "shtick" from everyone else, is by essentially making him do everything better than everyone else ? Do you even realize how silly that sound ? Shazam's shtick is magic,Captain Atom's shtick is energy manipulation, Martian's shtick is Telepathy. You see the trend here ? So what you wanna tell me is that Superman's "shtick" as you put it, is that he's better than everyone else, but you're annoyed that the big bad DC is not even letting him have that ?

So you're a Superman fan, and you demand that Superman be "number 1", but what about other characters that were established to be Superman's equal at some point ? What about their fans ? Very generous of you to accept MM having "near Kryptonian power levels" (just not equal). And a hax character with stupidly over powered abilities needs hax weakness to compensate. Martians are weak against FIRE and nobody is whining about that. And just to help you come to terms with why you want Superman to be "unpunkable" it's because you're a Superman fanboy. If you didn't care for Superman and preferred other characters, I guarantee you we wouldn't be having this discussion.

No Kryptonians are not "evolved humans" no matter what the original intent was. They're the definition of a Mary sue race. We're supposed to accept that they're god's chosen people, basically for no reason. They have godlike powers that keep on increasing for no reason, just to make other characters even more obsolete, and most of them are annoying pieces of crap going through an existential crisis because "nobody gets them and they feel lonely". The whole concept is stupid. And how are Kryptonians "evolved humans" if humans could never evolve into Kryptonians ? They're two different races, and one cannot evolve into the other, which means they cannot be used to show what humanity could become, so what's their point again in the story ?

My desire to pedestalize Batman ? When did I mention Batman at all ? Or any human character for that matter ? I'm talking about characters like Captain Marvel Captain Atom. Characters that barely get any attention, especially ridicules in Shazam's case where he's supposed to be Superman's equal physically, and with a magic advantage to boot, but he's been continually getting gimped and shown to be dumber than a bag of bricks just to make Superman look better, and yet you never hear his fanbase b*** like the Superman fanboys do.

The fact that you brought up Batman in a discussion that had nothing to do with him is hilarious. Now I understand why the Batman forum is overrun by Superman fanboys whining about how Batman is taking all the attention away from poor Superman. Batman is the bane of every Superman fanboy's existence it seems.

Essentially, if somewhat backwards and amusingly bitchy. It's not about powering him up further - it's about not nerfing him for the sake of others, when it serves no good purpose. Superman is limitless and "as strong as he needs to be", and he's already had every power under the sun at one point or another - you cannot "power him up" (these days he powers up just by soaking in sun-light). The Crisis Happened For A Reason, and all that. Pretty much every single reboot DC has had was to nerf Superman and power up others.

It's not just 'how it should be', it's how it is. It's why his power levels went up in the first place - because Superman is inherently built on the premise of peerless invincible supremacy. It's his basic characterisation, and what he's famous for as a hero - so it's pointless to ignore it.

And while his schtick is pretty much "being the best", that's not necessarily the issue here. Superman doesn't have magic, energy manipulation or psychic abilities as his claim to fame does he? Strength, speed and invulnerability (e.g. pure physical power) are his biggest hall-marks, so it's pretty douchey to just give them away to other heroes as equalisers when it's basically all he has. His competence is highly unreliable these days, and he already has a weakness to krypton rocks, and standing under a red sun, so he doesn't need another (easily abused) exploit invented for him, either.

Kryptonians are conceptually 'evolved humans' because they were literally invented that way. And look at them - they're clearly human-but-super. At least at one point, it's what humans would canonically evolve into, and it's still used as a premise in stories like "Red Son". That's why Superman is the "Man of Tomorrow". IIRC, originally he was actually a human from the future sent back in time, using his evolved genetics to be a bad-ass. You could make the argument that Kryptonians have become kind of a "Holy People", in DC narrative (and they're a race of Supermans, of course they're going to be mighty) - I like to think of them as Tolkien Elves or Protoss myself - but at least where Supes is concerned, he's basically like a Heraclean "ultimate man" (with super-powers).

Yes, Cpt. Marvel is a classic case of just cloning off Superman and adding a qualifier like 'magic'. Do you not see how obnoxious it is? Marvel/Shazam wasn't even a DC invention, and Superman still got locked in a rivalry with him. DC should concentrate on what makes them unique, instead of trying to jockey for a role they'll never be able to obtain. (And I think they are trying, so kudos.)

You're trying to project a pointless condition of 'play fair' onto Supes, but his character just doesn't bend that way, and isn't supposed to. He's canonically the Greatest Hero Ever, and that's the role he fills, and that's what we read him for. They've already made this his thing in theory - so there's no reason to ignore it in practice. He's Superman. It's just what he is.

It's not bad for Superman to be no. 1. All the heroes work just fine even with beings like Spectre around, and he's infinitely more powerful than Supes. Superman is the Luke Skywalker/Neo character - it doesn't make Han Solo / Leia / Chewy, or Trinity / Morpheus less compelling heroes. It's an opportunity for more complex drama.

You mentioned Batman on the WW forum, and how as a human he should get priority over everyone else. It was perfectly relevant.

And yes, the Batman resentment is because Bats has stolen Superman's shtick in a lot of ways, and often makes Supes look chumpish, and belying Superman's invincibility.

It's basically the same effect if Superman started consistently outsmarting Batman intellectually/tactically, beating him at chess / detective-work, and out-prepping him for the next ten years.

@supermudz: He gets nerfed because his power set is stupid. No writer can write a good story with Superman around, because with his list of abilities, what's the point of having any other character in your story ? But of course DC stubbornly refuse to drop the power levels of the overpowered characters, and yet insist on shoving Superman into every story and crossover book, which forces writers to try and find ways to disable Superman for the majority of the story to keep the story going. So explain to me how any of this is "nerfing Superman serve no purpose" ? Yeah DC nerfs Superman only to power him up again.

Yeah, he's built on a premise that worked 80 years ago, when there was no superhero genre, and no other superheroes. You want to keep Superman true to his origins, then keep him in his own universe. Also, this whole thing is just what YOU want to believe, that all Superman stands for is just being a punching machine that can punch anyone out because that's what he does. That's the only thing comic readers care about these days, who would win in a fight, forgetting that comic book characters are supposed to stand for ideals, especially Superman, not that I believe that Superman is not conceptually outdated, but I digress.

Oh it's an issue, especially when every major story arc ends by punching the villain. Every other character who're supposed to be Superman's equal, gets sidelined for Superman to save the day, because he's the strongest and that's what he does. I wish to see a story where Martian Manhunter, Captain Atom or Captain Marvel end up facing the main villain in a story, but no only Superman has that right, and nobody can complain about it. Only Superman deserves to hog everything apparently. His "hallmark" ? His hallmark is being the best in more than a dozen categories and you think that's OK in a universe where there are literally a hundred more Superheroes with their own fanbases ? You think Superman is entitled to all of this, because he's supposed to, but complain about Batman who gets what he gets for being the most popular character. Just goes to show you that you're just being selfish, and if Superman wasn't your favorite character, you wouldn't have been here complaining about how he's treated.

Please tell me at what point can humans evolve into kryptoninas ? In DC One Million it was shown that humans will gain some psionic abilities, and nothing more. No "powered by sunlight" crap for humans that grants them arbitrary powers as the plot demands. I concede that "evolved humans" was probably the original intention, but that's definitely no longer the case. Yeah kryptonians are being presented as the chosen people for no logical reason. They were so stupid that their own planet blew up, but after getting to earth and somehow getting unlimited powers, we're supposed to accept that they're all infallible beings that are here to grace humanity with their mere presence. I could've stomached the whole concept if Superman was actually the last kryptonian, but we have his cousin, his cousin from another dimension, two crazy war criminals, and a whole miniature city full of kryptonians, so you can see why the whole "Last son of Krypton" concept falls flat.

Captain Marvel is one of the oldest superheroes, that was actually vastly more popular than Superman until DC came and aggressively took over the character, with numerous lawsuits that the smaller Fawcett couldn't afford. Then DC decided to systematically destroy Marvel's character, just to make Superman look good, despite the fact that as a concept, Captain Marvel has much more potential for interesting stories, with him being a child in an adult body, but who wants that when we can have more Superman stories that nobody cares for.

What the hell "canonically the greatest" even means ? The greatest based on physical abilities ? I guess if physical accomplishment is the measure you use to determine how great a character is, and Superman was the greatest because he was the only superhero around, now after 80 years, he is no longer the greatest, and he shouldn't have a monopoly on being the greatest just because he was there first. Being an overpowered mess of a character is not a role to fill, that's like if I created a character that's powers are "being the best at everything" so his strength gets scaled up every time someone strong shows up. What do you think ? A very interesting character right ?

Only difference is the Spectre is not in every book, and he's not a Mary sue force of good that stops crime on and outside earth. That's why in Marvel, any character on Superman power level, are reserved for cosmic events, and don't show up on earth. Even characters like Thor and Hulk, are usually too busy to fight in city level events, or even in world wide events sometimes, and in Hulk's case can't even be considered full time heroes. Also, I guess you could say DC made "being totally better than everyone else" Batman's "thing" right ? He has contingency plans for everything, even for Superman. It's canon so nobody should complain about it. Did I get that right ?

And since I've mentioned Batman in another discussion on an entirely different board, you think it's OK to bring him into the discussion, without even referencing the fact that I used him in a different discussion before ? That's not how it works buddy. Batman has nothing to do with my argument, and when I used him in a previous discussion, I was attempting to illustrate the difference between a relatable character and an unrelatable one. That's a different discussion than the one we're having now. So no it's not relevant.

As I mentioned, just because Superman is the first superhero, that doesn't entitles him to be the best superhero around, as if everyone is required to like him. There are many who prefer different characters that would like nothing more than to see Superman disappear (and probably Batman too) to give their favored characters a chance to shine.

It's just basically Batman that makes Superman look bad, I'll concede to that. But what the Superman fanboys forget is that Superman does the same thing for other less popular characters, and yet they whine about Batman, but feel Superman is entitled to be better than every other characters. If you can't see the hypocrisy in this I don't think there is a point in continuing this discussion.

@enzo991:

He gets nerfed because his power set is stupid.

Impossible, considering everyone seems to get the same power set, plus others. No reason to change him just because his superness makes you chafe.

No writer can write a good story with Superman around, because with his list of abilities, what's the point of having any other character in your story ? But of course DC stubbornly refuse to drop the power levels of the overpowered characters, and yet insist on shoving Superman into every story and crossover book, which forces writers to try and find ways to disable Superman for the majority of the story to keep the story going. So explain to me how any of this is "nerfing Superman serve no purpose" ? Yeah DC nerfs Superman only to power him up again.

And yet the Silver Age, his most "OP" era, was also his most popular one, and the one that made me fall in love with the character as a kid. After multiple nerfs and slap-downs, his comics ain't so popular any more are they? Though, to be fair, his direct power levels were probably just a part of it - the element of spectacle.

And he apparently worked fine with Batman, the most non-powered hero in existence. So I guess people in the 60s etc, knew how to make it work. But DC's decision to push him in cross-overs isn't my beef.

Yeah, he's built on a premise that worked 80 years ago

And amazingly, superhero comics are still being printed today.

You want to keep Superman true to his origins, then keep him in his own universe.

It is his universe. Everyone else is just using it. The company itself was even called "Superman-DC" from the 40s, until they rebranded in '77, well after the other heroes were introduced. But I don't really care if he ever steps foot outside his own comics, so that's no-never-mind to me. They only do it to boost marketing.

Also, this whole thing is just what YOU want to believe,

It also has the advantage of being true.

that all Superman stands for is just being a punching machine that can punch anyone out because that's what he does. That's the only thing comic readers care about these days, who would win in a fight, forgetting that comic book characters are supposed to stand for ideals, especially Superman, not that I believe that Superman is not conceptually outdated, but I digress.

No. They’re comics, not tracts of social enlightenment. Comics are all about entertainment and wish fulfillment, chiefly based on punching bad guys, saving the day and getting the girl. That’s what superhero comics were designed for, regardless of where they went from there. Don’t believe me? Pick up the first five issues of Superman and see how enlightened you feel. Kinda punchy wasn’t he?

Standing for ideals, like "Truth, Justice and the American Way' may be part of Superman's specific defining character - but it's not the reason superheroes exist.

Please tell me at what point can humans evolve into kryptoninas ?

When comics say so. And you’re missing the point, it’s what they are thematically, not the internal DC history. In the SA, there was no real issue made of him being an "alien" or being able to have kids - because he's was basically just a dude who fell into super-powers like Billy Batson. (Well, I guess it was more that he was naturally and secretly the most fantastic man on earth - but he wasn't alien, is the point.)

Yeah kryptonians are being presented as the chosen people for no logical reason. They were so stupid that their own planet blew up, but after getting to earth and somehow getting unlimited powers, we're supposed to accept that they're all infallible beings that are here to grace humanity with their mere presence.

You have curious hostility to the classic premise of the most classic superhero in comics. You can accept and impose any interpretation you like.

I could've stomached the whole concept if Superman was actually the last kryptonian, but we have his cousin, his cousin from another dimension, two crazy war criminals, and a whole miniature city full of kryptonians, so you can see why the whole "Last son of Krypton" concept falls flat.

Then don’t call him that, and you’ll sleep easier. It’s just a tag-line.

Captain Marvel is one of the oldest superheroes, that was actually vastly more popular than Superman until DC came and aggressively took over the character, with numerous lawsuits that the smaller Fawcett couldn't afford.

Captain Marvel was a direct “Superman, but his alter ego is a little boy!”

I like Cpt. Marvel, but history rolled the way it did, and Superman came out boss. There was no need for two Supermans in the same universe. If history was different, maybe I would have been a Cpt. Marvel fan. (I'm happy with him being Superman fighting foe, through stats and magic, I just want his shtick to be something other than 'Superman, but "magic", so better'. Which DC is doing, I think, so a lot of this is moot.)

What the hell "canonically the greatest" even means ?

DC can’t seem to decide either. It used to be because Superman always saved the day against impossible odds, and he possessed (nigh-)unstoppable power that he used to fight for good.

These days, it kind of flips between that and ‘people really like him’. In general, it's just something nice they put on his resume to reassure us.

Only difference is the Spectre is not in every book, and he's not a Mary sue force of good that stops crime on and outside earth.

Right, so it’s not the power levels that’s a problem, it’s what the character is doing. If Superman actually utilised his cosmic powers for cosmic purposes in the best way possible, like a one-man Enterprise, there wouldn’t be an issue.

Also, I guess you could say DC made "being totally better than everyone else" Batman's "thing" right ? He has contingency plans for everything, even for Superman. It's canon so nobody should complain about it. Did I get that right ?

Kind of. He can beat up basically every hero or the entire league, without a single super-power. It’s not exactly canon, since he’s still powerless and Supes is still officially #1 and clearly still dominates him 7/9 times – but it is the narrative people have seized on.

And he took it from Superman. Superman has precedence on the “Always Wins” thing, Batman was about the Deus Ex Utility Belt, and I’d like him to get his groove back. It’s still what he’s publicly famous as – I’d just like it to be reflected in the comics I read, instead of re-watching a 37 year old movie. But I don't want to screw over Batman at the same time.

You can complain about what you like. I’m not going to stop you from having opinions.

And since I've mentioned Batman in another discussion on an entirely different board, you think it's OK to bring him into the discussion, without even referencing the fact that I used him in a different discussion before ?

Yes, I think it’s okay to use words in a manner appropriate to my train of thought.

It's just basically Batman that makes Superman look bad, I'll concede to that. But what the Superman fanboys forget is that Superman does the same thing for other less popular characters, and yet they whine about Batman, but feel Superman is entitled to be better than every other characters. If you can't see the hypocrisy in this I don't think there is a point in continuing this discussion.

Superman is literally entitled to be better, that’s the meaning of the word super, it’s what he was designed to be, which is how it stayed that way, became official, and is the general consensus of the entire sentient world.

Like I said, it’s just who he is. It doesn't make other heroes look bad to be less powerful than Superman. He's friggin' Superman. That's why he sets the standard. Even being able to survive visiting his tier makes them massively heroic.

There is no hypocrisy, Superman is exactly the thing that you’re complaining about. You just kind of have to lump it until you love him, or burst a kidney.

If you can't see the hypocrisy in this I don't think there is a point in continuing this discussion.

You say that, but you don't really mean it.

But I'll make you a promise - if your next reply is fantastically pointless griping as I suspect it will be, I will be happy to ignore you.

If Hulk can be "the strongest there is" than why can't superman be what he was created to be?

Jonn should have no Superman like powers,and instead have shapeshifting,density control,invisibilty,and telepathy,he would besuch a badass and could finally get away from these stupid "who's better" arguements.

@enzo991: If Supes really is stupid and shouldn't have worked, then he shouldn't have survived the test of time. And you probably wouldn't have that avatar that you have right now, or it would've been drastically different.

Also, ironically, Superman's also sidelined. Clark's shown incredible feats of knowledge and smartness but somehow he's inferior to Batman and Lex's IQs. Mere "humans".

@comic_bruh777: That took place in Justice League of America #6 I believe.

@supermudz:

Superman explained in a single sentence:

Superman is as good as he needs to be.

sorry to bring up an old thread; but where was MMH when Superman Prime was around?

Also could MMH read Kryptonian minds? I was watching Supergirl and MMH couldnt read krptonian minds but according to wiki he reads minds of other entities rather easily...

Someone please confirm

Far too versatile for Clark, really

Mindrape, beat-down, shapeshifting, intangibility tricks...

Keep him at bay with telekinesis, go invisible, etc... J'onn has this

Supes would need a tonne of prep and a gameplan cooked up by Bruce to win this one

MMH got wrecked by Prime on multiple occasions. First, captured by boy prime, then, killed by man prime.

</thread>

@supermudz: You are the ultimate Superman fanboy. Congratulations.

Martian Manhunter is powerful but he's not on Superman's level. When Doomsday attacked ol' J'onn couldn't even phase him with his most powerful blows which means that J'onn isn't even more powerful than Maxima who actually was the only other hero besides Superman who hurt Doomsday when he first appeared

Martian Manhunter takes this in my opinion. Supes can't get around telepathy or intangibility, plus they are close in strength, he can go toe to toe with Superman until he decides to be serious.

I like Superman, but he loses.

^^this

Superman only loses when he's badly written. Or worst when he's simply show to be too stupid to use his powers to their maximum efficiency.

One way that Superman could take out MM telepathy and intangibility, at both time, would be to use his Heat Vision to ignite the oxygen around both. It would effectively create a firepit all around them. And we all know what fire does to Martians.

If it's only his intangibility, all Superman would need to do, would be to vibrate his atoms to match the frequency of those of J'onn. And his intangibility would be totally useless. Superman can do this, he's been shown that he can do this, but writers conveniently forget about that.

J'onn only and true advantage, is his telepathy. If he keeps his distance and attacks Superman with telepathy from afar, then Superman as no real way to protect himself. Because again Superman is always shown living short of his potential, while other characters like MM, the Flash, Cyborg, WW and many others are constantly being pushed to their limits.

We've had cases of very smart people being able to resist telepathic attacks or probes, using mental techniques like constantly thinking on complex equations. Hell, even the Joker mind was something that perplexed J'onn and he found it hard to understand and control. Would it be so difficult for Superman, that can think at speeds faster than light, to fill his mind with so many equations and problems that even telepathy would be of little use!?

Everytime Martian Manhunter is shown beating Superman, it isn't because J'onn is more powerful, it's because the writer either wants that outcome or is simply too dumb to look at Superman powerset and see it to its maximum potential.

@heavenlydarkdragon: That's............surprisingly true

J'onn isn't weak to fire, it was written out years ago in his Fernus arc. Slightly scared but not a weakness.

J'onn can physically hang with Clarke and has powers such as Martian vision, telepathy and phasing which can all really hurt supes. He can do all of this whilst invisible and intangible. J'onn stomps.

Did you even read what he said?

@costy21:

Was correcting the "we know what fire does to Martians" that's why I quoted.

Then added my own opinion

Superman is the first superhero and a symbol of truth, justice, and the American way. But most importantly he stands for hope. Hope that their will always be good to fight evil. Hope that no matter how bad things look, their will always be a light at the end of the tunnel. He is the leader of the justice league, not because of power, strength, speed. But because he is the sign of everything that is good. The flawless Boy Scout. He can jump into a room full of random people and instantly take charge. Because it's in his character. Zack Snyder and frank Miller try to take the symbol of supes and tear it away. But as long as we remain strong to his character. We will always have hope.

And that is why j'ohn is not the leader of the league. Manhunter is just a big green alien. While superman is the very definition of good

Quick question

Is Martian Manhunter going to be in JL movie?

-side note if not why the f**** not ? ! he's such an amazing character and needs to get some screen time. I'm happy that he has it in Supergirl the tv show but he needs his own movie and to be a part in the DC movie empire

@deadpo0l: I agree, I love J'onn, it'd be pretty dope to see him in his own movie, people underestimate him too much.

Altough I think yeah MMH is more powerfull, but I also think Superman understands humans more, and has a greater hope for the good of mankind.

He maybe Kryptonian but he feels more human than MMH , but opposite of Batman seeing the cruel things , Superman has hope and this is why he is the leader not Batman or MMH. Without the Hope of Superman I think JLA would be pretty negative form of Superheroe's.

Same goes for Avengers of Captain America , becuase he has hope for humanity.

Here... Jump to the weakness section. And you'll see that fire never stopped being a weakness for Martians, only the vulnerability to it as changed over time. True that in the New52 MM was as his lowest vulnerability, but seeing how Rebirth is basically erasing everything from the New52, you can expect fire to become lethal to him once again.

@heavenlydarkdragon:

Rebirth is basically just Pre52 though when the Fernus event occurred. That pretty much wiped his weakness to fire.

I see that providing you with the link was useless. So here... A quote of what's written about his weakness.

Weaknesses

J'onn has been portrayed as having a weakness to fire, which has varied over the years, usually according to the needs of a given storyline.

Evolution of the Fire weakness

In the Silver Age, even the smallest flame could cause J'onn to cringe and occasionally fall unconscious. It was explained as the natural enemy of all Martians, and would vary widely in severity by the writer's whims.

In the Bronze Age it became more defined, causing him to slowly lose his powers and eventually consciousness.

Post Crisis it was explained as being psycho-somatic, a result of the traumatic experience burning the bodies of his race killed by a plague.

When Grant Morrison took over JLA, he reintroduced the fire weakness as being a racial trait of all Martians, white or green. Later in that same title, Joe Kelly explained it as the result of a prehistoric war with the Guardians. The Guardians of the Universe, after defeating the Martians, placed within the Martian race a psychological fear of fire. This was to prevent them from taking on their earlier, "Burning" form, marked by aggressiveness and chaos. When J'onn excised his weakness to fire by working with Scorch, he unleashed Fernus. Afterwards, J'onn stated that he no longer fears ordinary flames and that the only fire that affects him is fire of psychic or mystical power.

In the New 52, it has been revealed that he once more has a psycho-somatic weakness to fire, stemming from the traumatic, fire related destruction of the Martian race. It is noted that his body is still ultimately invulnerable, even as he is being effected.

See! His vulnerability to fire was never gone. It was simply diminished over time.

Something that funny enough you never see happening with Superman. You never see his vulnerability to kryptonite go away or be diminished to non-lethal non-incapacitating levels.

Superman if he was portrait right, written right, he'd really be near-unstoppable. But no. Writters not only downplay and chain down Superman, but they got the balls to create characters that are basically a rip-off of Superman to beat him.

Think about it! Think about Martian Manhunter and take away all the powers not directly copied from Superman. And we get a character with a powerset of Shapeshifting, Telepathy, Telekinesis and Intangibility. The same can be said about Shazam, take away all powers directly copied from Superman and we get a Shazam whose powers are the wisdom of Solomon, the fighting skills of Aquilles, and Zeus lightning.

And what do both Martian Manhunter and Shazam have in common. They're rip-offs of Superman, and they have one vulnerability at most and it's not even something that deadly.

While in the meantime Superman is vulnerable to kryptonite when he should be able to block its radiation, vulnerable to red sunlight when he (with his powers on) should be able to transform red sunlight into yellow at will, vulnerable to psychics when his brain should be powerful enough that himself should've psionic abilities also. The only vulnerability that I agree that Superman should be vulnerable to is Magic. Because magic is by its very nature the breaking down of the laws of reality itself and also even magical powered beings are vulnerable to magic.

@heavenlydarkdragon:

You just proved my point? After the entire fernus problem J'onn was pretty much immune to fire unless it was magic fire basically.

@clownprinceofcrime1995:

Actually I proved my point.

My entire point was and is that Martian Manhunter hasn't lost his fire weakness. Yes, it may require physic fire or magical fire to hurt him, but fire nontheless still produces a psycho-somatic effect.

It would be like you being in a boxing match and because you have some trauma that's triggered because of a certain smell or shape, your mind would start to have an anxiety or panic attack.

Even in the New52 MM had serious trouble concentrating if he was exposed to a large amount of fire or heat. Like it was when he faced Zod and basically lost. Because by using his own Martian vision to turn the sand into glass, the sheer heat was enough to wear down J'onn.

And even in the pre-New52 if you remembered way back, how was J'onn killed in the Final Crisis!? The villain Libra used fire to kill J'onn. And it wasn't psychic or magic fire. It was plain fire.

So that alone throws your idea about J'onn not being vulnerable to fire to the ground.

Don't remember... Here let me help you.

So he got killed because they used fire to weaken him. Yes, he put one hell of a fight, way more than if fire had the same effect on him that kryptonite as on Superman, but he ended up dead all the same.

The fire used was mainly from his long arch-nemesis Heat Wave. So it wasn't psychic fire or magic fire, but plain fire.

@heavenlydarkdragon said:

@clownprinceofcrime1995:

Actually I proved my point.

My entire point was and is that Martian Manhunter hasn't lost his fire weakness. Yes, it may require physic fire or magical fire to hurt him, but fire nontheless still produces a psycho-somatic effect.

It would be like you being in a boxing match and because you have some trauma that's triggered because of a certain smell or shape, your mind would start to have an anxiety or panic attack.

Even in the New52 MM had serious trouble concentrating if he was exposed to a large amount of fire or heat. Like it was when he faced Zod and basically lost. Because by using his own Martian vision to turn the sand into glass, the sheer heat was enough to wear down J'onn.

And even in the pre-New52 if you remembered way back, how was J'onn killed in the Final Crisis!? The villain Libra used fire to kill J'onn. And it wasn't psychic or magic fire. It was plain fire.

So that alone throws your idea about J'onn not being vulnerable to fire to the ground.

Don't remember... Here let me help you.

So he got killed because they used fire to weaken him. Yes, he put one hell of a fight, way more than if fire had the same effect on him that kryptonite as on Superman, but he ended up dead all the same.

The fire used was mainly from his long arch-nemesis Heat Wave. So it wasn't psychic fire or magic fire, but plain fire.

It was pretty much eradicated.

Proof it was normal fire? Pretty sure Libra uses magic/abilities. Also PIS. Realistically even weakened there's no reason J'onn wouldn't be able to just drop them all with telepathy.

Also the entire Martian thing is BS, Martian vision isn't heat vision.

MM would win if he wanted to

@heavenlydarkdragon: Heat Wave? That was The Human Flame and a group of other villains

Maybe it's the books in reading but MM never seems to get his dues and gets either lowballed or shat on. I still say he could beat Supes

@nerevarine_11:

Right. Thanks for the correction. All these TV shows sometimes mess up with the names.

Either way he was weakened by normal fire and ultimately killed by Libra.

The problem with Martian Manhunter is that he's too much like Superman. Hell, even most of his powers are a total rip-off of those of Superman. It isn't just because they name a power Martian Vision, that readers are blind to the fact it acts much like Heat Vision.

Maybe with a different powerset, something that made him more unique, would help him standout. Also a different origin story would also help. Again we get a Superman rip-off. Last son of Krypton and last survivor of Mars. J'onn is too much like Superman not just in powers but also origin.

Martian Manhunter in my opinion needs to be rewritten to become more like his own character and not a rip-off.

Has for him beating Superman, I already said my piece. A Superman written to his full potential would really be the most powerful being on Earth.

@linsanel_doctor:

More like if the writer wants to, he wins. And seeing MM was created mainly to be a force to stop Superman, of course when they fight most of the times MM wins. Specially seeing that Superman never evolves.

His weakness never go away or are diminished.

And he never uses his powers to their full potential. Hell, not even Superman knows his own limits, and how his powers even work. One good example was Wraith, and how he showed how much Superman doesn't know about himself. While we see MM having master control over his powers.

MM easy he can use intangibility phase through superman's attacks go inside superman grab his heart and rip it out

MM wins easily.

I think if the question CAN MMH beat Superman? Definitely if he gets the drop on Superman. But if the question is MMH can beat Superman 10 out of 10, I seriously doubt it. At that level, it really depends on who is taken by surprise. If either are ready for an attack, chances are it will end mostly in a stalemate: maybe as high as 5 out 10 end in stalemate, 3 out of 10 supes takes it, 2 of 10, MMH takes it. I think Superman's strength and speed are superior to MMH, if he is going all out, and not restricting himself. Supes also has heat vision, the limited ability through mental training to resist psionic attacks, sou that could be enough to tip the scale in his favor. If he is going all out, that is.

MM lowballing is real.

Martian stomps if he wanted to.

^x99999

MMH has the ability to win quite easily, to be honest.

But he seldom use powers like that ....

Depends on how powerful are you willing to let Superman be, really.

by comparing feats and not including the writers; Superman wins. I saw on another post that somebody said because MMH overpowered Ultraman that he can technically take down Superman; this isn't true. Superman is smarter, faster, stronger, more experienced, and more skilled than his Earth 3 counter part. It's been noted as well that even though MMH has the same power set as Superman, they aren't nearly as equal. Beings that have one-shot MMH couldn't do the same to a Superman that was holding back. MMH has also stated himself that if Superman doesn't want to be found with telepathy; he won't be. Superman wins.

Supes wins because he has MM weakness. HEAT!!

Martian Manhunter wins, more often than not. Sure, Superman can definitely defeat him, using his laser beams to exploit the Martian's weakness, but Jonn has ways to go around that. For starters, he can turn intangible. He's also fast enough to keep up with Superman, so don't expect him to deal with Jonn before he can react. The intangibility not only can be used by Jonn defensively, but also offensively, as he can phase his hand through Superman's brain or heart and rip it out. Jonn can also turn invisible, to such a degree that even Superman can't see him if he doesn't want to. There's also his biggest advantage, telepathy. He can use it to read his mind and predict his actions, and most importantly, he can mess up with his mind really bad. Superman might be resistant to telepathy, but he's far from immune, as proven by Fernus and White Martians (and by the way, Jonn is a more powerful telepath than the White Martians that messed with Superman's mind). And on top of all this, Martian Manhunter has similar levels of brute strength to Superman, even by default. And Jonn can increase his size and/or density in order to increase his brute strength by a lot, so if he wanted, he could use those powers to make himself a lot stronger than Superman.

That depends. Superman is stronger, faster. Martian Manhunter just have additional powers that alone should not help him here.

Martian is more interesting character. Superman just too strong.

Superman was once his superior, but as time went on the writers made MMH at full power basically ahead of the entire Justice League, and Clark has expressed fear/respect for J'onn several times, and Manhunter has defeated Superman-level opponents before.

MMH takes it, certainly.