I thought the Superman books were ok,especially compared to the Batman one. Having said that they do try to make Superman look more hip and cool,it's rather blatant and not too subtle.

I'd rather the writers focus on writing a good story rather than try to influence public perception.

Superman fans have only themselves to blame when people think Superman is outdated. You make me physically ill.

I may be in the minority on this but Superman Earth One (both volumes) has been one of my favorite Superman stories ever

My opinion on this is: It's not a main universe book, and a different take on a character. Stop bitching. If you don't like it, don't read it, and stop complaining about it. But if you read something, that you already know you won't like, just to start bitching about it because "it's not my superman", you're just bitching for the sake of bitching. And you're looking for something to bitch about.

What's wrong with dating or being friends with a hooker?

@pperspectiveandreality: No I usually stop responding to your posts because I've had enough of your inane arguments and flawed logic. You claim constructive criticism is non existent on here yet fail to see your own poor attempts to defend this poor representation of a Superman story. Cherry picking much? This is why I stop engaging with you because you fail to see the inherent flaws in your own arguments. And again stop making things up by saying that I'm trying to flame bait you. I'm sick and tired of you making up your own rubbish to suit your biased and stubborn arguments. You're trying to get a rise out of me for walking all over your flawed attempt at engaging with me but sorry, that isn't how you debate at all. I expected much more respectable discourse than the poor showmanship you're displaying here.

Be glad we're only discussing the tamer topics of comic books and not a heavier topic like religion. Because arguments based on your kind of logic are torn to shreds by the secular side for the empty claims they are.

Once again we got to see that Superman’s fans are such fragmented crowd (sigh…)

Completely logical considering how many Superman versions have appeared the last decade. All-Star, Post-Crisis,Johns' pre-52, New 52, Earth 1, earth 2, Injustice etc.
The fans are fragmented because the character is too.

@squalleon said:

Earth 1, Earth 2, Injustice, maybe even All-Star Superman are Elseworlds. I just don’t understand what the big deal with character being different in Elseworld. And it’s hardly only Superman who got changed with each DC Crisis.

I’m curious why did you distinguish Johns’ Pre-New-52 Superman? Are you talking about Secret Origin as another Superman version?

People enter the medium differently. If ones first book was E1 it is pretty logical that he would like that Superman or at least feel more familiar with him than Byrne's, see how many people enter Superman with the New 52 or how many people liked E1 but didn't like Superman in general.
Everyone has a personal favorite about Superman's portrayal and it is only logical that you would like similar portrayal's instead of an array on new portrayal's that go to a different direction than the one you like, no matter if they are alternative portrayal's, it is human nature, you like what you like. Especially for the hardcore,heavily invested fans.
And Superman was the one who changed the most and most frequently. Since the 2000s alone mainstream Superman changed 3 times(00s, IC, New 52), no other character even Wonder Woman didn't change so frequently. I assure you, you won't find another character with as an unstable ''feel'' as Supes.

Johns' Superman from origin to feelling was different than pre-ic Superman. You can see a clear change in direction and overall feel of the character and book. He is supposedly the same character but the whole lore and mythos is vastly different. Its definetely a soft-reboot.

@lvenger:

But didn't you say a minute ago that you picked my arguments apart? It's just confusing because you've actually never done that. But keep believing it if you like. All you usually do is ignore questions and repeat your stance over and over and use other viners' out of context arguments to support your own. If ad hominem attacks amount to "picking arguments apart" to you--then that's cool...I guess. I said "virtually nonexistent". There's a distinction to be made there that you failed to make. You're criticizing this intentionally out of the norm story for not being traditional. You're the one showcasing poor logic in this thread, my friend. What you're doing is like criticizing cupcakes for not being spicy. They aren't supposed to be that way. I'm sure you can grasp that. I'm no debate expert here, but I'm pretty sure that is the just perfect definition of a straw man argument. These so-called inherent flaws don't really exist outside of your perception. But as I said, keep believing whatever you like. But you totally are trying to flame bait me. Do you deny your statements were inflammatory or, as you like to put it, "snarky"? Even on of you're favorite writers, Mark Waid dislikes people who only write internet snark rather than real criticism or debate. Now you bring up religion? Why? What does it have to do with this topic? I've never tried to get a rise out of you except for when I made the joke on the WW forums that you got upset about and I apologized. But keep believing what ever you like. You expect more from me? I guess turnabout is fair play. But please, what have I done that you find so abhorrent? Btw I'm still wondering if you acknowledge that this was an elseworld story?

P.s. You want to talk about religion with me? I welcome the opportunity. Google "ask a Christian comicvine" I'll be waiting.

@pperspectiveandreality: If criticising where your arguments go horribly wrong and pointing out how blinded you are by your limited perceptions counts as an ad hominom argument then something must be wrong in how you perceive my responses to your points. And sadly you fail to properly accuse my argument of falling into the trap of being a straw man argument since

1. I'm not misrepresenting your argument, I'm presenting it as clear as day.
2. I am hardly uninformed of the original argument, that being Superman: Earth One's representation of Superman.
3. I haven't created a different premise to knock down, I've knocked down your original position in the first place.

Maybe try harder to understand what a strawman is before accusing me of committing one hmm? So yeah you can keep believing I'm trying to flame bait you but if correcting your faulty arguments constitutes as flame baiting, most of the Vine is guilty of flame baiting by your extrapolated logic. Just because you believe something doesn't make it true in the slightest in light of the real reasoning behind it.

And I only used religion as an example of a more serious debating topic that, using your line of reasoning that you fallaciously display on here, would be knocked down easily. Trust me, you really don't want me getting involved in your religious thread. I've debated theists, Muslims, creationists, Catholics and more online, in lessons, seminars or in debating societies. And held my own against them. I can assure you asking me to participate in your thread will not be a pleasant experience for you given how many arguments for God I've seen before and each time, I'm usually capable of finding flaws in them myself or finding an argument which has already found flaws. It'll come to "you have faith and I don't" so I've summarised how your proposed debate will end already.

@lvenger:

"If criticising where your arguments go horribly wrong..."

You have yet to criticize. You've only written snark and, in a rather ignorant fashion, complained.

"...and pointing out how blinded you are by your limited perceptions counts as an ad hominom argument then something must be wrong in how you perceive my responses to your points..."

So it's not your argument that's poor it's my perception of your argument that is poor? That'd be great if your argument wasn't totally pointless. You have yet to actually acknowledge facts in this thread. This zealot-like behavior is below you, my brother. Also, when your debate devolves to insults, it's apparent you know you have no point.

"...And sadly you fail to properly accuse my argument of falling into the trap of being a straw man argument..."

Actually you're wrong again. Because you did in fact misrepresent my argument by saying:

"... And again stop making things up by saying that I'm trying to flame bait you. I'm sick and tired of you making up your own rubbish to suit your biased and stubborn arguments. You're trying to get a rise out of me for walking all over your flawed attempt at engaging with me but sorry, that isn't how you debate at all..."

I didn't make anything up. You did try to bait me. By anyone's definition this:

"...You're the one who seems to hate the idea of sound criticism or people discrediting certain opinions. Try not to make baseless assumptions and pull words like obtuse out to make me sound as if I'm doing worse than I actually am. It only makes your argument all the more of a straw man for me to knock down like I do usually..."

Is bait. Needlessly inflammatory and needlessly personal. Let's continue.

"...2. I am hardly uninformed of the original argument, that being Superman: Earth One's representation of Superman..."

I'm confused here...if you acknowledge the fact that Earth One is an else world then why are you still arguing?

"...3. I haven't created a different premise to knock down, I've knocked down your original position in the first place..."

When? You never actually refuted my point that earth one was an else world. You just complained and wrote snark.

"...Maybe try harder to understand what a strawman is before accusing me of committing one hmm?..,"

Maybe try not to personally attack other users for having different opinions than you hmm? Maybe try not to misrepresent facts hmm? Maybe try to not erect straw mans and engage in as hominem hmm?

"...So yeah you can keep believing I'm trying to flame bait you..."

The evidence proves you were. This is sad.

"...but if correcting your faulty arguments constitutes as flame baiting, most of the Vine is guilty of flame baiting by your extrapolated logic..."

You really believe you corrected me don't you? Wow.

"...Just because you believe something doesn't make it true in the slightest in light of the real reasoning behind it..."

This is the best example of irony I've encountered in a long while.

"...Trust me, you really don't want me getting involved in your religious thread. I've debated theists, Muslims, creationists, Catholics and more online, in lessons, seminars or in debating societies. And held my own against them. I can assure you asking me to participate in your thread will not be a pleasant experience for you..."

Seminars and debating societies?! Will wonders never cease?! Lol. Have you actually read any of the religious text you debate against? I doubt it. So you really don't have any room to speak on them.

"...given how many arguments for God I've seen before and each time, I'm usually capable of finding flaws in them myself or finding an argument which has already found flaws. It'll come to "you have faith and I don't" so I've summarised how your proposed debate will end already."

Uh huh.

Okay, this thread is just getting stupid beyond redemption

@pperspectiveandreality: You're becoming very unpleasant to talk to so I'm ending things now. I'm not replying to any more of your posts, hopefully for some time. But for the record, yes I have read plenty of chapters from The Bible and The Qu'ran. I studied Religious Education in school so it's partly why I'm an atheist since I took the time to look at the source material and see it for what it was. Have you read The Bible Pperspective? And I mean really read it?

So.........anyone like bacon bits?

Wow, why do sooo many threads on the Superman board end up with Superman fans fighting with each other?! Can't we all just agree to disagree and get on?

Re Superman Earth one, can someone explain the differences between Volumes one and two and which do you prefer? (obviously I am talking here to people who like them lol!).

@squalleon

..The voice of reason as usual on controversial topics like this one!

Internet fights never get old, especially the part where someone brings up religion for no discernible reason.

@bezza:
If I am the voice of reason we Superman fans have a pretty low standard :P
Its logical that those fans can't co-exist. Because at the end of the day they all like a different character. New 52 will never be Pre-52 and E1 will never be All Star, these characters are too different, from the way they are presented to their history. And all those fans of all those versions supposedly like the same character? I don't think so. There is a reason Daredevil or Batman fans aren't fragmented. Because Batman and Daredevil had a stable characterazation for decades and when that characterazation broke all hell broke loose (look at Waid's DareDevil and current state of the DD fanbase).
Personally I see Superman as a character who has became a true symbol, so I don't like it when he is portrayed out of his parameters (Injustice, Earth 2) but I love when people can do justice to his meaning (Morrison's AC about doing the impossible possible is great, truly worthy of the Superman). But what can you do :P, my problems with E1 was with volume 2 which was for me too formulaic. The parasite part was unoriginal and it read as every parasite story ever told, while the lack of supporting cast was something JMS should have improved. I liked the first volume a lot more.

You've been very unpleasant everytime someone has disagreed with you. You say you won't respond yet you ask me a question? I'm confused.

That's been my point since the very beginning. Agree to disagree.

Seriously, why does an Elseworld, or even every single main continuity storyline have to follow the same beats and needlessly recreate Donnerman/Silver Age/All-Star?

My dream Superman book that j would write would be heavy on the scifi and the Silver Age Dick (Donner) riding would be nonexistent.

@bezza: @squalleon: The rest of trinity aren't immune from it. Just bring up Azz vs Perez/Rucka in a Wonder Woman forum or Morrison Vs Snyder in Batman and chaos ensues.

Azzarello/Perez is a similar situation but Snyder/Morrison is more on terms of quality and writing.

@squalleon:

Hey dude don't do yourself down, your comment about the character being fractured, hence the fanbase being similarly fractured so was spot on!

I've been a Superman fan a long, long time now, but I enjoy elsewhere stories. For example, I love Superman Secret Identity and Red Son because they are, well a different take on the Superman character. Similarly I like Batman Earth one and Wolverine Old Man Logan as they are just, "different". What I don't understand/like is when one fan dictates to another that they are in the wrong/don't understand the character, when it simply boils down to taste.

With so many different Superman variants, I think its ok for one fan to like, say the traditional Superman, i.e. Geoff Johns type and another fan to like a different version, say from Earth one, or the MOS film.

And yes, Wonder Woman fans are just as bad, probably worse! I don't venture on there too often these days due to all the in fighting.

Superman fans shouldn't be battling each other, but try and accommodate each other's tastes. As an example, I currently "follow" both the two fellow superman fans who fell out over this thread as I appreciate their individual tastes and knowledge on the character. Go in peace people.

I can understand that because "Classic" Superman fans saw their Superman disappear. For fans of the Pre-52 Superman, its more difficult because he used to be the mainstream Superman and now he has been replaced and disappeared from the radar. So when they see a new Superman version which furthers away from what they liked and don't have after all this time of investing time and money its definetely annoying.

Again the character reflects the fanbase, WW is another character who isn't easily defined and suffers from reboots. The problem with WW fans is that they don't know what they like. Some of them can't even define her properly. They all like her iconic nature more than the character. Like Superman, WW doesn't have a stable status quo, so she can't appeal to a certain fanbase and advance her ranks over time. Thats why Batman is the most successful property of DC because he hasn't been constantly rebooted, building a lore and finding a balance that appeals to fans. Now his family is richer than ever and all of his greatest stories are in his lore, making space for new stories to evolve from that lore.

I loved E1 Batman too :P Yeah I know that for some he comes of as an incompetent but I greatly enjoyed it. I liked that in the beginning it was supposed to be simple revenge but then he learned about the murder being random, he made it a goal of life. It was a very nice twist.

Dafuq happened here?

@saint_wildcard: you'd think Zod's neck was here the way that they snapped at each other.

@squalleon:

Yeah, Batman got re-booted (sort of) by Frank Miller and he hasn't needed much of an update since, because he is up to date and relevant to modern audiences. Superman fans need to remember the character has been around since 1938. I suspect in the Silver Age some fans didn't like his change from the Golden Age and now people don't like the New 52 version compared with their post crisis version or whatever. Thing is, you have to evolve, evolve or die and if new versions of the character mean newer readers gain interest, then all well and good for me! Superman and Wonder Woman are quite old fashioned characters in some ways, belonging to a more innocent age and therefore writers have tried new angles to make them more relevant to new readers. So basically if you're a fan of post crisis pre New 52 supes, respect the dude who only likes the edgier New 52 version and vice versa.

This thread really devolved quickly. I still don't see the problem mainstream superman fans had with earth one. After re reading both volumes I'm convinced it's one of the greatest elesworlds stories ever told. Again shouldn't we superman fans be united in our love for the character. No matter the interpretation. Aside from the tyrant superman stories like injustice of earth 2 the character remains the same and is still the big blue scout.

I'm saving this thread. It all went to hell, sure, but I haven't had such great LOLing material since I visited the Wonder Woman forum.

...speaking of which...

glad to see we are all playing nicely today!!

Talking of Wonder Woman I know this is the wrong forum, but when is the Grant Morrison Earth one due out? re Batman Earth One which bat fans all hate, its quite ironic really that the new Fox Gotham series is basing its Alfred around the one in that book, played by English tough guy Sean Pertwee, son of the late great Jon Pertwee, the third Doctor, I believe.......

It can only be one character. Brainiac!

From the various versions we've seen, Brainiac was always the villain that in some way or another had a profound effect on Krypton.

Brainiac is always obcessed with being the ultimate life force in the universe. It makes sense that he would want to destroy the competition. Or better yet, have others do it for him.

Zod wouldn't make any sense at all. He's kryptonian, and a military leader, if anything he would try to conquer Krypton not destroy it.

And we know that whoever it was, gave the Dheronians advance technology, so they could destroy Krypton. To me, technology is the key factor here.

If it was Darkseid, he wouldn't go "playing in the shadows", he would try to conquer both worlds. Krytpon and Dheron (Tyrell world).

The only other character that comes to my mind, that could probably want Krypton's destruction would have to be the Erradicator. And that would actually come as a surprise to me if it was. But for that to be so, they would have to change a lot of things about him. Which wouldn't come has a surprise seeing that they did it in the New 52. Poorly I might add.

I'll wait and see.

Man, this is a good thread.

It is not the dark representations that have upset the stomachs of fans of Earth One characters brutalized.

It is the fact that these things are seen as being realistic. Or even more realistic. That is something that just angers people, because they realize that it is impossible to make something developed as entertainment for young people to escape from reality into something remotely realistic. Johns made Gotham I to a funhouse mirror of a dysfunctional city and culture. JMS has made Superman I to someone wo seems more interested in going with the flow of being in the human race.

Yes, Superman Earth one is doing damage to the iconic image of Superman, but it is far more intelligent and respectful to the established canon than anything Geoff Johns has written of Batman in his entire career.

Well.....That escalated quickly.