Something nice for the classic Bats vs Supes debate

#1 Edited by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

I take no credit for this, just found it online

___

When people say: "Batman can kick Superman's ass" they really mean one of three things:

1. I like Batman more and think he can do anything.

2. I think Batman can win a one-sided battle where he's prepared and Superman isn't; and I've read comics like that.

3. I think Batman can beat Superman under specific circumstances, but all things being equal, Superman will almost always win.

With Case 1, there's no arguing with them. With Case 3, I think the individual is reasonable enough and there's no need to force them to say Superman will ALWAYS win unless we're suffering from a bit of Case 1 ourselves, but with a Superman bent. I think a mixture of Case 2 and a little bit of 1 is the predominant viewpoint of people who say it.

The thing is, they typically don't acknowledge the inequality in preparation or technology... it's almost always a contrived circumstance to bring about a Bat-victory by the skin of Bruce's teeth. Even if they do, they put their faith in Batman's preparation and planning (and sometimes technology) to rule the day. The following addresses that (reposted):

Despite the incredibly presistant and wide-spread belief that Batman has a dozen plans up his sleeve to take out Superman, historically it's been proven otherwise again and again. Let's take some examples:

DKR - Bats, after 20 years of planning, gets his ribs broke, his fancy suit torn to shreds, suffers a heart attack, and ends up in the ground. His entire plan relies on Superman holding back and NOT simply unplugging Bruce from his lamp-post or disabling him from space (if Supes really just wanted Bruce to turn himself in, rather than getting into a dangerous fist fight)... in other words, poor writing for Supes (out of character motivation, out of character intellect/tactics), who could have undid the Bat's plan easily.

Hush - Bats breaks his hand & resorts to thug-level hostage tactics, while admiting he doesn't stand a chance. Honestly, he just gets in one good punch (that breaks his hand) shortly after, Supes smashes through the street and effortlessly lifts a car in each hand, no worse for wear. His plan needlessly puts himself at risk and relied entirely on Clark holding back/being good, which he had no logical grounds on which the make that assumption... having a "gut feeling" that Clark can resist mind control does not constitute a good plan.

Red Son - Dies. Despite all his prep, he didn't account for Superman's allies, which he has in spades and certainly on a different power-level than- say- the Bat Family. If anything is true of Supes, it's that he has many friends that would readily risk life and limb for his sake- heck, in the regular universe, Batman considers himself one of that number... any plan meant to take Supes out has to take into account his allies, friends, family, robots, pets, etc.

Babel - Years of planning on how to stop a rogue Superman... result: an expensive synthetic rock that makes Superman MORE powerful (and doesn't even prevent him from using his powers with surgical precision). Wow. Brilliant.

Superman/Batman #2 - Owned. This is in Batman's home turf, the ideal situation to combat Superman and to enact all the theoretical plans his fans have long believed he has against a rogue Superman... but the result? Bruce isn't even Future Supes's target yet he's a breath away from death if not for a save from present-day Supes.

Lex Luthor:Man of Steel - Batman with kryptonite and prep, defeated handily by Superman. Arguably one of the most realistic portrayals of how Supes could still defeat Batman without instantly killing him regardless of Bat-prep.

Superman: King of The World - Batman with prep and kryptonite fails to stop Superman from being able to crush his throat... only with the intervention of Green Lantern and Martian Manhunter is Supes stopped. Here we see danger of Superman with limited prep, the legions of his similarly powered Superman robots.

Sacrifice - Again, Batman, king of protocols, the man entrusted with the Kryptonite ring as a symbol of trust and the express responsibility of stopping Superman should he go rogue by Superman himself... finds himself in said situation and instead of pulling out "always prepared anti-Supes plan" finds himself beaten to near death saved only by the Plot Gods.

Infinite Crisis - After the last beating, you'd think Batman would create more comprehensive plans for taking out Superman and/or Superman-class enemies. Granted Kal-L is probably levels above them, but in terms of Anti-SuperBrick Planning, once again, Bruce fails... his entire defense the Kryptonite ring. Even if it were Kal-El and not Kal-L, it's highly questionable whether the ring alone would have been able to stop a motivated rogue Superman considering Supes has wielded the ring himself when fighting other Super-persons. If Batman were truly the master of planning and prep, this certainly should have been taken into consideration.

Final score: Bat Plans Zip; Supes nine of nine.

The only cases where Batman has been able to possibly get a leg up on Supes are when he has acted like a villain and held hostages or lead an assault against an unsuspecting Supes- hardly a feat (consider: who amongst us, with Batman's fortune and training, intimate knowledge of Superman as an ally, and even express consent from said target, WOULDN'T be able to come up with an attack plan against an unsuspecting Supes?). In any case where Supes has had the opportunity to fight back he has either won or been defeated by bad writing.

___

What's a Batgod to a nonbeliever?

#2 Posted by UltimateSMfan (1416 posts) - - Show Bio

Bravo!

#3 Posted by Perezite (1432 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerx said:

I take no credit for this, just found it online

___

When people say: "Batman can kick Superman's ass" they really mean one of three things:

1. I like Batman more and think he can do anything.

2. I think Batman can win a one-sided battle where he's prepared and Superman isn't; and I've read comics like that.

3. I think Batman can beat Superman under specific circumstances, but all things being equal, Superman will almost always win.

With Case 1, there's no arguing with them. With Case 3, I think the individual is reasonable enough and there's no need to force them to say Superman will ALWAYS win unless we're suffering from a bit of Case 1 ourselves, but with a Superman bent. I think a mixture of Case 2 and a little bit of 1 is the predominant viewpoint of people who say it.

The thing is, they typically don't acknowledge the inequality in preparation or technology... it's almost always a contrived circumstance to bring about a Bat-victory by the skin of Bruce's teeth. Even if they do, they put their faith in Batman's preparation and planning (and sometimes technology) to rule the day. The following addresses that (reposted):

Despite the incredibly presistant and wide-spread belief that Batman has a dozen plans up his sleeve to take out Superman, historically it's been proven otherwise again and again. Let's take some examples:

DKR - Bats, after 20 years of planning, gets his ribs broke, his fancy suit torn to shreds, suffers a heart attack, and ends up in the ground. His entire plan relies on Superman holding back and NOT simply unplugging Bruce from his lamp-post or disabling him from space (if Supes really just wanted Bruce to turn himself in, rather than getting into a dangerous fist fight)... in other words, poor writing for Supes (out of character motivation, out of character intellect/tactics), who could have undid the Bat's plan easily.

Hush - Bats breaks his hand & resorts to thug-level hostage tactics, while admiting he doesn't stand a chance. Honestly, he just gets in one good punch (that breaks his hand) shortly after, Supes smashes through the street and effortlessly lifts a car in each hand, no worse for wear. His plan needlessly puts himself at risk and relied entirely on Clark holding back/being good, which he had no logical grounds on which the make that assumption... having a "gut feeling" that Clark can resist mind control does not constitute a good plan.

Red Son - Dies. Despite all his prep, he didn't account for Superman's allies, which he has in spades and certainly on a different power-level than- say- the Bat Family. If anything is true of Supes, it's that he has many friends that would readily risk life and limb for his sake- heck, in the regular universe, Batman considers himself one of that number... any plan meant to take Supes out has to take into account his allies, friends, family, robots, pets, etc.

Babel - Years of planning on how to stop a rogue Superman... result: an expensive synthetic rock that makes Superman MORE powerful (and doesn't even prevent him from using his powers with surgical precision). Wow. Brilliant.

Superman/Batman #2 - Owned. This is in Batman's home turf, the ideal situation to combat Superman and to enact all the theoretical plans his fans have long believed he has against a rogue Superman... but the result? Bruce isn't even Future Supes's target yet he's a breath away from death if not for a save from present-day Supes.

Lex Luthor:Man of Steel - Batman with kryptonite and prep, defeated handily by Superman. Arguably one of the most realistic portrayals of how Supes could still defeat Batman without instantly killing him regardless of Bat-prep.

Superman: King of The World - Batman with prep and kryptonite fails to stop Superman from being able to crush his throat... only with the intervention of Green Lantern and Martian Manhunter is Supes stopped. Here we see danger of Superman with limited prep, the legions of his similarly powered Superman robots.

Sacrifice - Again, Batman, king of protocols, the man entrusted with the Kryptonite ring as a symbol of trust and the express responsibility of stopping Superman should he go rogue by Superman himself... finds himself in said situation and instead of pulling out "always prepared anti-Supes plan" finds himself beaten to near death saved only by the Plot Gods.

Infinite Crisis - After the last beating, you'd think Batman would create more comprehensive plans for taking out Superman and/or Superman-class enemies. Granted Kal-L is probably levels above them, but in terms of Anti-SuperBrick Planning, once again, Bruce fails... his entire defense the Kryptonite ring. Even if it were Kal-El and not Kal-L, it's highly questionable whether the ring alone would have been able to stop a motivated rogue Superman considering Supes has wielded the ring himself when fighting other Super-persons. If Batman were truly the master of planning and prep, this certainly should have been taken into consideration.

Final score: Bat Plans Zip; Supes nine of nine.

The only cases where Batman has been able to possibly get a leg up on Supes are when he has acted like a villain and held hostages or lead an assault against an unsuspecting Supes- hardly a feat (consider: who amongst us, with Batman's fortune and training, intimate knowledge of Superman as an ally, and even express consent from said target, WOULDN'T be able to come up with an attack plan against an unsuspecting Supes?). In any case where Supes has had the opportunity to fight back he has either won or been defeated by bad writing.

___

What's a Batgod to a nonbeliever?

I hope you don't hate Batman or like one over the other and this post is just an extreme knee jerk reaction to all the persecution you must feel as a Superman fan in a world run by overzealous fans of Bats who will never give you a break and would make the Dark Knight ashamed of their idiocy.

#4 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio
#5 Posted by AllStarSuperman (21865 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman wins 11/11, in Smallville Season 11, issue 5. Batman has a special suit with red sun lamps and kryptonite batarangs. and Superman gets in like a flick and batman hairline fractures every bone in his body.

and:

he could have killed him.

#6 Edited by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio
#7 Posted by deaditegonzo (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

Yep, I like it. Agreed on almost everything. The only time Batman stands a chance is if Superman has no desire to fight himself. A bloodlusted Supes (which on the battle forums he usually is), or even a Supes who is willing to try and disable Batman non-lethally wins immediately.

Im glad you brought up Babel, i've always thought, assuming Supes had gone rogue, or was bloodlusted (which is what the plan was for correct?), he is frankly MORE deadly in Babel. And Superman being able to perform split second surgery on the Flash shows how flawed Batman's plan was, in that it didnt even disable any of Superman's capabilities.

Red Son is one of the most interesting examples, I rarely think about it as related to this discussion, but I guess its really the only one where Batman took Supes down one on one and Supes needed Wonder Woman's help.

#8 Posted by Wolfrazer (6714 posts) - - Show Bio

I still lol at that fight in Brave and the Bold, the only smart thing Batman did was bring Krypto along with him.

#9 Posted by Supermansito (197 posts) - - Show Bio

nice

#10 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo: thanks, but I don't deserve the credit I just plucked out something from a FB discussion that seems to be out of links/deleted.

#11 Posted by Cepedan (8 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerx: you just made my day. I love you

#12 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerx: Yours or not, that is a good find and a great contribution to these forums. :D

#13 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh boy, the whole superiority argument again.

Moderator
#14 Posted by PCN24454 (454 posts) - - Show Bio

there are things that superman can't do that batman can

it's like saying who the smartest person on the planet is: most scientists have specialties and don't know everything about EVERYTHING

#15 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@pcn24454: Such as?

Supes is as swiss army knife, while flash is a scalpel

Bats is a butter knife

@ssejllenrad:@cepedan:

thanks

Oh boy, the whole superiority argument again.

I'd say superior race to be honest

#16 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerx said:

@pcn24454: Such as?

Supes is as swiss army knife, while flash is a scalpel

Bats is a butter knife

LOL! Butter knife. Haha! But yeah there are some skills of Bats that Supes can't really do. Intimidation for one. Of course Supes can be scary if he wanted to. But Bats just do that naturally. I know this ain't applicable if they fought but yeah you get the picture.

#17 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssejllenrad: He can intimidate, but he is portrayed as the nice guy. Bats is just a glorified human with a whole bag of insecurities that he use to fight crime.

#18 Edited by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerx: Ok... AC 775 was scary... But can Supes do law?

#19 Edited by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio
#20 Edited by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerx: Not Batman's king, he isn't...

#21 Edited by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio
#22 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

#23 Posted by THEOCITYLEGEND (1208 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerx said:

@ssejllenrad: He can intimidate, but he is portrayed as the nice guy. Bats is just a glorified human with a whole bag of insecurities that he use to fight crime.

If this is what you really think, you probably don't read any Batman.

#24 Posted by THEOCITYLEGEND (1208 posts) - - Show Bio
#25 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@theocitylegend: I think and I do

Just don't like the fact that they pushed him so hard

I loved the batman before the got broody and dark

when Bruce still smiles, when the man had lighter colors

#26 Edited by THEOCITYLEGEND (1208 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerx said:

@theocitylegend: I think and I do

Just don't like the fact that they pushed him so hard

I loved the batman before the got broody and dark

when Bruce still smiles, when the man had lighter colors

The only Batman that is really that broody and dark is Frank Millers Batman. Reading TDKR does not make one a Batman reader.

"Bats is just a glorified human with a whole bag of insecurities that he use to fight crime." This sentence proves either you're a troll, don't read Batman. or both. I mean that's the same as me saying "Superman is just a glorified kryptonian with a whole bag of loneliness and inability to relate that he uses to fight crime."

This entire thread was made to feed a select group of Superman fanboys that feel insecurity whenever Batman and Superman are mentioned in the same sentence. There is a trend that I have noticed since I joined the vine that a select group of Superman fans spend most of their time comparing Superman to Batman or just plain bashing on Batman. I have a feeling this is due to Batman currently being the most popular. I mean you actually made a thread where you listed a set of arguments so the Superman fans can band together against what you call the "pressure for batfans." What pressure? Batman gets alot of exposure in comics and other media because he has so many fans. There is no pressure....

I have diagnosed you with case 1.

#27 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@theocitylegend:

"Superman is just a glorified kryptonian

That is true, and he should be glorified

Its just that the problem with battles, and popularity is fine on general discussions or off-topic. That sh!t however does not belong in battles where people assess with feats. People often use batman to poke fun at other heroes, oh and this is just to hype up MoS. I did not make that post on the top, just salvaged it from elsewhere.

But you will derail this to a batman face saving argument, like Citizenbane's awesome blog that got addled up with shrimps.

#28 Posted by Ciriel (410 posts) - - Show Bio
#29 Edited by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio
#30 Posted by ESchrammbo (29 posts) - - Show Bio

If it were me as Bats, against bloodlusted Super? Under a red sun Super keeps his powers until his energy runs dry? I'd take the time to do something else than hide the K ring. I'd entrust it to Dr Fate and ask him to find a spell to duplicate the energy - or kryptonite. Then incorporate it into a force field charged with red solar energy. Take cells from parasite and copy his abilities into the tech needed to siphon off supes stores of energy. Magic to keep it all hidden from his super vision. Paralyzing magic spells, etc, to hold him until the effect is complete. He's vulnerable to magic alone and only by magic can super be stopped without killing him.

I know a fan who's kept up with the comics will be able to shoot this full of holes, but as I said. It's only what *I* would do.

#31 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@eschrammbo:

Against batman as superman 'I' would do the thing DC fans love to say in battle forums, 'speed-blitz'

flash fact.

#32 Posted by Perezite (1432 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerx said:

@eschrammbo:

Against batman as superman 'I' would do the thing DC fans love to say in battle forums, 'speed-blitz'

flash fact.

You took that from Volume 1 of JLA you devil you. :D

#33 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@perezite: In the closet flash fan here >.>

#34 Posted by Perezite (1432 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerx said:

@perezite: In the closet flash fan here >.>

I don't get it.

#35 Posted by Perezite (1432 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerx said:

@perezite: In the closet flash fan here >.>

Anyways, how's your entire immediate family suddenly disappearing and being executed right before you with dull metal blades right before you're killed in the same fashion for a form of capital punishment for the Sporians?

#36 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio
#37 Edited by Perezite (1432 posts) - - Show Bio
#38 Edited by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio
#39 Posted by Perezite (1432 posts) - - Show Bio
#40 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio
#41 Posted by SandMan_ (4528 posts) - - Show Bio

LOL

You guys are funny.

#42 Edited by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

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