Ok, I have to say it wasn't that bad...

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#1 Posted by X9 (757 posts) - - Show Bio

When I heard Superman and Wonder Woman would develop something in the New 52 I was like "No, DC, get over it, it's never worked out, what about Lois, bla, bla"

But then, after reading how it happened I have to say...it was well written and made sense. Will it last a long time? I don't think so. Will he chose Diana over Lois (if they get to love each other again)? Probably not. (and that's my humble Clark+Lois supporter opinion)

But it's something that I didn't like at first, but got to admit its quality later.

Just sharing anyway :)

#2 Posted by Squalleon (4565 posts) - - Show Bio

I think that was a great idea,because the new 52 was about changes and new stories,why would they do the same!

I love the idea of clark and diana together even before the 52,they had some kisses,some adventures,they spend 1000 years together in asgard(although clark didn't do anything because he was married with lois)! I hope it lasts, because something tells me that they will break up after the trinity war!

#3 Posted by sethysquare (3843 posts) - - Show Bio

i agree

#4 Posted by Lvenger (19342 posts) - - Show Bio

Still don't like it. It's forced, out of the blue and solely for marketing purposes. It's about as cliched as the star quarterback dating the head cheerleader.

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#5 Posted by Squalleon (4565 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: well the same was when batman was dating wonder woman in joe kelly's jla but i didn't see people complaining about then!I believe that some people don't like it because they just want batman to be the center of the world all the time!

#6 Posted by Lvenger (19342 posts) - - Show Bio

@Squalleon said:

@Lvenger: well the same was when batman was dating wonder woman in joe kelly's jla but i didn't see people complaining about then!I believe that some people don't like it because they just want batman to be the center of the world all the time!

I don't. I want Superman and Wonder Woman to have new relationships with meaningful connections rather than putting together DC's biggest male and female heroes and shipping them as DC's new power couple

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#7 Posted by Squalleon (4565 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: But why then.Supes and WW had a romance going for years why not explore it , the marketing part is just logic,from the smallest change to the biggest event all is about marketing.

#8 Posted by joshmightbe (24876 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

Still don't like it. It's forced, out of the blue and solely for marketing purposes. It's about as cliched as the star quarterback dating the head cheerleader.

The problem with this statement is that most of the time the quarterback dating the head cheerleader makes a lot more sense that the quarter back dating the chess club girl.

#9 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (747 posts) - - Show Bio

Why the star quarterback analogy??? This version of Superman is a self-described pacifist who's into obscure films and crusading for the poor. He wore baggy clothes that made him look like Harry Potter in Action Comics #1 for crying out loud! This guy does not fit the star quarterback stereotype.

#10 Posted by Lvenger (19342 posts) - - Show Bio

@Squalleon said:

@Lvenger: But why then.Supes and WW had a romance going for years why not explore it , the marketing part is just logic,from the smallest change to the biggest event all is about marketing.

They already explored the possibility in the 80s in a much better way. It was a brief fling that resulted in a long standing brilliant friendship that was almost sibling like. Seeing them date in the New 52 does not work for me at all.

@joshmightbe: It really doesn't. Wonder Woman has no interest in acting like a human being whereas Superman was raised as one. There's a complete difference.

@Jekylhyde14 said:

Why the star quarterback analogy??? This version of Superman is a self-described pacifist who's into obscure films and crusading for the poor. He wore baggy clothes that made him look like Harry Potter in Action Comics #1 for crying out loud! This guy does not fit the star quarterback stereotype.

It's an example of how the relationship is cliched. And arguably Superman is the quarter back of the Justice League. Looks that way anyway.

For another take on the Superman/Wonder Woman relationship, I'd suggest you read http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/deranged_midget/justice-league-12-is-there-truly-a-justified-reasoning/87-84436/

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#11 Posted by Squalleon (4565 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: well you dont need to know everything about the person you make out with!They had just a kiss if it evolves into a releationship that is another matter.Plus they felt alone,hey give them a break.As for the 80s releationship do you mean that kiss they had in action comics 600?

#12 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

I've read how they came together, and I'm still pretty meh towards it. When they got together in Kingdom Come, it made all the sense in the world, but here I feel like they're doing it just because they can. I don't care if Superman and Wonder Woman get together, but I need a good story to drive them to that place, where, in this case, one issue isn't enough. Something like that has to be built up for a while to get me to care about it.

Bottom line, it doesn't make me interested enough to buy the book.

#13 Edited by Lvenger (19342 posts) - - Show Bio

@Squalleon: DC are shifting Superman and Wonder Woman as their next superhero power couple. That's a big indication it's going to evolve into a relationship. And yes I mean the AC 600 kiss.

@Gambit1024: Exactly the right attitude. I flat out don't like the Superman/Wonder Woman pairing but it wasn't even done in a suitable way. No build up, just a "Hey we're both alone, let's make out!" Makes no sense whatsoever.

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#14 Posted by joshmightbe (24876 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: If you think about it Lois was a terrible girlfriend for Clark considering she basically didn't give a sh*t about him until she found out he was Superman. Its kind of like claiming a woman who treated you like crap right up until you hit the lotto is your true love.

#15 Posted by Squalleon (4565 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: it IS GOING to evolve!I don't think they will wake up the next morning and they will say "alright we are in a releationship".Plus in a fast paced comic like JL they will not have enough tim....pages!DC advertised the kiss

#16 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (747 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@Squalleon said:

@Lvenger: But why then.Supes and WW had a romance going for years why not explore it , the marketing part is just logic,from the smallest change to the biggest event all is about marketing.

They already explored the possibility in the 80s in a much better way. It was a brief fling that resulted in a long standing brilliant friendship that was almost sibling like. Seeing them date in the New 52 does not work for me at all.

@joshmightbe: It really doesn't. Wonder Woman has no interest in acting like a human being whereas Superman was raised as one. There's a complete difference.

Did I miss something? Are the Amazons not human beings? Wonder Woman is a Demi-God, yes, but she was raised by the Amazons of Earth much like the Kryptonian Superman was raised in Kansas. Is there still a culture difference? Sure. At the end of the day, people are people. I think Diana wants to have the things that other people do at least as much as Clark does. The fact is that they're both sort of different from everyone else and that strains their ability to have these relationships. Is it really that hard to believe that they'd find an initial connection over this shared problem?

A lot of the reasoning used against this relationship is directly from Action Comics #600 which was a way of "exploring" the relationship by giving a reason not to explore it. This is John Byrne logic and it's continuity has been erased from the New 52 timeline. This is a new world filled with new possibilities which allows for this relationship to be explored for real this time. Besides, I was never convinced by the whole "gee, Wonder Woman, I'm just a small town guy at heart" explanation in the first place. He comes to this conclusion after helping her defeat a group of dark gods. He seemed to handle himself pretty well in the realm of the divine so why would he cope out about it later on? Byrne's Superman always projected a good deal of weak sauce modesty.

Going back to the quarterback thing, it feels Batman has that role these days.

#17 Posted by Squalleon (4565 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jekylhyde14: I couldn't said it better in a million years.

#18 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: I don't have an issue with the pairing itself. Not because they're "loners" or anything like that, but because, hey, Superman's got needs that cannot be satisfied by human women. I know it'll run its course (as you cannot erase Lois and Clark as hard as you try), but for the actual pairing, I don't really care. Just saying "Hey, we're alone together!" and then making out, isn't my idea of something awesomely romantic, but whatcha gonna do?

@Jekylhyde14: As far as the general public of the DC Universe is concerned, Superman is the guy in charge, thus making him the "quarterback" in that sense.

#19 Posted by Squalleon (4565 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambit1024: That would be a mistake of Geoff Johns.He cannot write personalities!

#20 Posted by Lvenger (19342 posts) - - Show Bio

@Squalleon: Exactly the problem. JL is the only book that'll have time for the relationship and it'll get lost amongst the other things for Justice League.

@Jekylhyde14: The Amazons are for the most part cut off from the rest of humanity. Clark was raised in relatively ordinary human circumstances. Wonder Woman doesn't really have the same human experiences as Clark. As for the rest of your response, I'll let part of Deranged Midget's blog post say what I want to say on the matter:

"Yeah, I'll get the responses claiming how "similar they are", or "they're both alone and just want to be human", but truly, that's complete nonsense. Diana wants nothing of the sort. She has no interest in being normal or living among the humans as simple common folk as Clark does. She was raised as a Princess and hasn't been taught the same ideals and virtues that Clark was raised with. He's alone in the Universe for a reason. His entire race has gone extinct, and as such, his solitude was not of his own doing. He's been stated on several accounts to be the most powerful being on the planet and yet, he considers doesn't consider himself above the human race. Instead, he prefers to be one of them, live among them, to simply fit in. In what way does this make him similar to Diana besides the fact that they're both basically "gods" among men?

Some consider it a logical choice to pit the two together. They're both perfectly capable of handling themselves. One is a highly trained warrior with years of experience, while the other is nigh invincible and supposedly the most powerful being on the planet. Given their power-sets, they would have less to worry about compared to if they were in relationships with normal humans such as Steve or Lois for example. But instead of unbearably forcing the kiss so early on, would it really have been hard to creatively build up their relationship or interest in each other over the course of a few issues? Give the readers a reason to care for why they are together instead of just tossing it all together so blatantly."

I'd be interested to hear your response to that.

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#21 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

@Squalleon: That's true for a majority of the characters. GL is really the only one that's unique in that regard, and it's completely overdone in the JL title. That's weird to me considering that the Hal in his own title is tolerable as well as Aquaman and Flash (when he wrote it pre-Flashpoint). Maybe he's just not great at team books? He could be worse though. Much worse.

#22 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (747 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger:

Utter hogwash.

First off, think about what you're saying. Clark had a "normal human experience," meaning, what, that the only people who have normal human experiences are ones that were raised on farms in the midwest? There are people in America that don't get that kind of experience. There are people in the third world who probably live more like the Amazons than like the good people of Kansas. Sure, the Amazons are quirky but they're human beings with human lives, fears, and prejudices. Note that the Amazons also alienated Wonder Woman from their society back in issues #2-3 of her solo series because of here godly origins. This devastated Wonder Woman because she wants to live among her human sisters. She was also more than happy to be introduced to the Western world and its culture. She even mentioned in Justice League #12 that she was interested to engage in a normal, Western relationship. This does not sound like someone who considers themselves completely apart from humanity. This sounds like a person who very much wants a lot of the things that humans have but whose powers and responsibilities alienate her from this.

This is very much like Superman who maintains his Clark Kent identity to stay close to his loved ones and so he doesn't drift completely apart from those that he protects. However, he recently had to make the decision to KEEP that identity because he was worried that it would endanger his ability to be Superman. This shows that he understands that his mission as Superman is more important than his human existence. He even believes that part of his mission will one day involve solving the world's big problems like hunger and pollution as evidenced by his pitch to the Justice League in Action Comics. So despite his Kansas upbringing, Superman does acknowledge that his reach and capabilities are much greater than your average human and acts accordingly sort of like a demi-god would.

They have A LOT in common. Normal people like Steve and Lois can't ever fully comprehend what they go through because of their powers. Decisions that Superman and Wonder Woman make on the job could save or condemn thousands to millions of lives. As amazing as Steve and Lois are, they could never quite know what that's like. They will also never know what its like to live among a people whom you will never exactly be like. Superman and Wonder Woman have both experienced this. They both have missions to change the world. Wonder Woman for peace and Superman for truth and justice. They even wear the same colors. They have so much in common that it's frightening. If you don't see the connection its because you're choosing not to or you're working hard to invalidate the obvious just as Byrne did. But it is most certainly there.

That is my response to that.

#23 Posted by Squalleon (4565 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambit1024: He can't write dynamics or because he does 30 jobs at the same time he doesn't have the time to give depth!

He wrote the robot chicken special

Episodes for Arrow

he probably writes a bit of JLA

He has to coordinate the Rise of the third army

he just wrote Batman earth one

He writes 3 ongoing series

That man needs a vacation!!

#24 Edited by Lvenger (19342 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jekylhyde14 said:

@Lvenger:

Utter hogwash.

First off, think about what you're saying. Clark had a "normal human experience," meaning, what, that the only people who have normal human experiences are ones that were raised on farms in the midwest? There are people in America that don't get that kind of experience. There are people in the third world who probably live more like the Amazons than like the good people of Kansas. Sure, the Amazons are quirky but they're human beings with human lives, fears, and prejudices. Note that the Amazons also alienated Wonder Woman from their society back in issues #2-3 of her solo series because of here godly origins. This devastated Wonder Woman because she wants to live among her human sisters. She was also more than happy to be introduced to the Western world and its culture. She even mentioned in Justice League #12 that she was interested to engage in a normal, Western relationship. This does not sound like someone who considers themselves completely apart from humanity. This sounds like a person who very much wants a lot of the things that humans have but whose powers and responsibilities alienate her from this.

This is very much like Superman who maintains his Clark Kent identity to stay close to his loved ones and so he doesn't drift completely apart from those that he protects. However, he recently had to make the decision to KEEP that identity because he was worried that it would endanger his ability to be Superman. This shows that he understands that his mission as Superman is more important than his human existence. He even believes that part of his mission will one day involve solving the world's big problems like hunger and pollution as evidenced by his pitch to the Justice League in Action Comics. So despite his Kansas upbringing, Superman does acknowledge that his reach and capabilities are much greater than your average human and acts accordingly sort of like a demi-god would.

They have A LOT in common. Normal people like Steve and Lois can't ever fully comprehend what they go through because of their powers. Decisions that Superman and Wonder Woman make on the job could save or condemn thousands to millions of lives. As amazing as Steve and Lois are, they could never quite know what that's like. They will also never know what its like to live among a people whom you will never exactly be like. Superman and Wonder Woman have both experienced this. They both have missions to change the world. Wonder Woman for peace and Superman for truth and justice. They even wear the same colors. They have so much in common that it's frightening. If you don't see the connection its because you're choosing not to or you're working hard to invalidate the obvious just as Byrne did. But it is most certainly there.

That is my response to that.

Sorry but I simply don't agree with that. DC have put them together simply for marketing attention and publicity. They haven't built it up like in Kingdom Come so the premise of your argument is flawed. None of that has been shown as of yet so the reason why Superman and Wonder Woman are together is not one that your argument is presenting. Nor is it one I agree with or approve of. By approve of I mean Superman and Wonder Woman together. Not your opinion.

EDIT: Also Clark realised the importance of his Clark Kent identity by the end of the story and now Mrs N has rewritten things so that no on remembers Clark Kent's death. Clark Kent is important to the world and can handle the things Superman cannot. They may fight for the same things but Superman and WW are inherently different. Beyond the obvious surface similarities, their characters are not compatible for a relationship which is why I don't like this move by DC. They haven't even spoken to each other and now they're making out? It's unrealistically nonsensical. And the character of Wonder Woman in her own title is completely different to that of JL Wonder Woman. Additionally, as I said earlier where will they find the time for the relationship in just Justice League? Action Comics, Superman and Wonder Woman are full in terms of their schedule.

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#25 Posted by Shamelesslysupportinaznballers (553 posts) - - Show Bio

If Superman & Wonder Women were alive in the real world, I don't see why they wouldn't be attracted to each other & hook up. It makes perfect sense for 2.

#26 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (747 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@Jekylhyde14 said:

@Lvenger:

Utter hogwash.

First off, think about what you're saying. Clark had a "normal human experience," meaning, what, that the only people who have normal human experiences are ones that were raised on farms in the midwest? There are people in America that don't get that kind of experience. There are people in the third world who probably live more like the Amazons than like the good people of Kansas. Sure, the Amazons are quirky but they're human beings with human lives, fears, and prejudices. Note that the Amazons also alienated Wonder Woman from their society back in issues #2-3 of her solo series because of here godly origins. This devastated Wonder Woman because she wants to live among her human sisters. She was also more than happy to be introduced to the Western world and its culture. She even mentioned in Justice League #12 that she was interested to engage in a normal, Western relationship. This does not sound like someone who considers themselves completely apart from humanity. This sounds like a person who very much wants a lot of the things that humans have but whose powers and responsibilities alienate her from this.

This is very much like Superman who maintains his Clark Kent identity to stay close to his loved ones and so he doesn't drift completely apart from those that he protects. However, he recently had to make the decision to KEEP that identity because he was worried that it would endanger his ability to be Superman. This shows that he understands that his mission as Superman is more important than his human existence. He even believes that part of his mission will one day involve solving the world's big problems like hunger and pollution as evidenced by his pitch to the Justice League in Action Comics. So despite his Kansas upbringing, Superman does acknowledge that his reach and capabilities are much greater than your average human and acts accordingly sort of like a demi-god would.

They have A LOT in common. Normal people like Steve and Lois can't ever fully comprehend what they go through because of their powers. Decisions that Superman and Wonder Woman make on the job could save or condemn thousands to millions of lives. As amazing as Steve and Lois are, they could never quite know what that's like. They will also never know what its like to live among a people whom you will never exactly be like. Superman and Wonder Woman have both experienced this. They both have missions to change the world. Wonder Woman for peace and Superman for truth and justice. They even wear the same colors. They have so much in common that it's frightening. If you don't see the connection its because you're choosing not to or you're working hard to invalidate the obvious just as Byrne did. But it is most certainly there.

That is my response to that.

Sorry but I simply don't agree with that. DC have put them together simply for marketing attention and publicity. They haven't built it up like in Kingdom Come so the premise of your argument is flawed. None of that has been shown as of yet so the reason why Superman and Wonder Woman are together is not one that your argument is presenting. Nor is it one I agree with or approve of. By approve of I mean Superman and Wonder Woman together. Not your opinion.

What really irks me about this point of the argument is I built my points up using direct evidence from the comic books. I gave you scenes and events to back my points up and address your concerns. Yet, you think that you can invalidate all of this by saying that you don't agree or accept it. And yet MY argument is the one that's flawed??? You don't like the relationship, fine, that's completely in your right. However, the fact that you won't admit that there's a common link there that could lead to a relationship and that these things ARE present in the comics regardless of whether they were directly used in the build-up to the kiss is ridiculous. Geoff Johns could have done a better job leading up to this relationship, sure, but that doesn't change the fact that everything I mentioned above is THERE. Don't simply turn a blind eye to it because you didn't like the story.

#27 Posted by Lvenger (19342 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jekylhyde14 said:

@Lvenger said:

@Jekylhyde14 said:

@Lvenger:

Utter hogwash.

First off, think about what you're saying. Clark had a "normal human experience," meaning, what, that the only people who have normal human experiences are ones that were raised on farms in the midwest? There are people in America that don't get that kind of experience. There are people in the third world who probably live more like the Amazons than like the good people of Kansas. Sure, the Amazons are quirky but they're human beings with human lives, fears, and prejudices. Note that the Amazons also alienated Wonder Woman from their society back in issues #2-3 of her solo series because of here godly origins. This devastated Wonder Woman because she wants to live among her human sisters. She was also more than happy to be introduced to the Western world and its culture. She even mentioned in Justice League #12 that she was interested to engage in a normal, Western relationship. This does not sound like someone who considers themselves completely apart from humanity. This sounds like a person who very much wants a lot of the things that humans have but whose powers and responsibilities alienate her from this.

This is very much like Superman who maintains his Clark Kent identity to stay close to his loved ones and so he doesn't drift completely apart from those that he protects. However, he recently had to make the decision to KEEP that identity because he was worried that it would endanger his ability to be Superman. This shows that he understands that his mission as Superman is more important than his human existence. He even believes that part of his mission will one day involve solving the world's big problems like hunger and pollution as evidenced by his pitch to the Justice League in Action Comics. So despite his Kansas upbringing, Superman does acknowledge that his reach and capabilities are much greater than your average human and acts accordingly sort of like a demi-god would.

They have A LOT in common. Normal people like Steve and Lois can't ever fully comprehend what they go through because of their powers. Decisions that Superman and Wonder Woman make on the job could save or condemn thousands to millions of lives. As amazing as Steve and Lois are, they could never quite know what that's like. They will also never know what its like to live among a people whom you will never exactly be like. Superman and Wonder Woman have both experienced this. They both have missions to change the world. Wonder Woman for peace and Superman for truth and justice. They even wear the same colors. They have so much in common that it's frightening. If you don't see the connection its because you're choosing not to or you're working hard to invalidate the obvious just as Byrne did. But it is most certainly there.

That is my response to that.

Sorry but I simply don't agree with that. DC have put them together simply for marketing attention and publicity. They haven't built it up like in Kingdom Come so the premise of your argument is flawed. None of that has been shown as of yet so the reason why Superman and Wonder Woman are together is not one that your argument is presenting. Nor is it one I agree with or approve of. By approve of I mean Superman and Wonder Woman together. Not your opinion.

What really irks me about this point of the argument is I built my points up using direct evidence from the comic books. I gave you scenes and events to back my points up and address your concerns. Yet, you think that you can invalidate all of this by saying that you don't agree or accept it. And yet MY argument is the one that's flawed??? You don't like the relationship, fine, that's completely in your right. However, the fact that you won't admit that there's a common link there that could lead to a relationship and that these things ARE present in the comics regardless of whether they were directly used in the build-up to the kiss is ridiculous. Geoff Johns could have done a better job leading up to this relationship, sure, but that doesn't change the fact that everything I mentioned above is THERE. Don't simply turn a blind eye to it because you didn't like the story.

I notice you've replied but I'm about to go to sleep so I can't reply to this yet. I've edited my original comment which I'll be interested to hear your response from and I'll fully respond to this at some point tomorrow. I hope that's OK with you.

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#28 Posted by Squalleon (4565 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jekylhyde14 said:

@Lvenger said:

@Jekylhyde14 said:

@Lvenger:

Utter hogwash.

First off, think about what you're saying. Clark had a "normal human experience," meaning, what, that the only people who have normal human experiences are ones that were raised on farms in the midwest? There are people in America that don't get that kind of experience. There are people in the third world who probably live more like the Amazons than like the good people of Kansas. Sure, the Amazons are quirky but they're human beings with human lives, fears, and prejudices. Note that the Amazons also alienated Wonder Woman from their society back in issues #2-3 of her solo series because of here godly origins. This devastated Wonder Woman because she wants to live among her human sisters. She was also more than happy to be introduced to the Western world and its culture. She even mentioned in Justice League #12 that she was interested to engage in a normal, Western relationship. This does not sound like someone who considers themselves completely apart from humanity. This sounds like a person who very much wants a lot of the things that humans have but whose powers and responsibilities alienate her from this.

This is very much like Superman who maintains his Clark Kent identity to stay close to his loved ones and so he doesn't drift completely apart from those that he protects. However, he recently had to make the decision to KEEP that identity because he was worried that it would endanger his ability to be Superman. This shows that he understands that his mission as Superman is more important than his human existence. He even believes that part of his mission will one day involve solving the world's big problems like hunger and pollution as evidenced by his pitch to the Justice League in Action Comics. So despite his Kansas upbringing, Superman does acknowledge that his reach and capabilities are much greater than your average human and acts accordingly sort of like a demi-god would.

They have A LOT in common. Normal people like Steve and Lois can't ever fully comprehend what they go through because of their powers. Decisions that Superman and Wonder Woman make on the job could save or condemn thousands to millions of lives. As amazing as Steve and Lois are, they could never quite know what that's like. They will also never know what its like to live among a people whom you will never exactly be like. Superman and Wonder Woman have both experienced this. They both have missions to change the world. Wonder Woman for peace and Superman for truth and justice. They even wear the same colors. They have so much in common that it's frightening. If you don't see the connection its because you're choosing not to or you're working hard to invalidate the obvious just as Byrne did. But it is most certainly there.

That is my response to that.

Sorry but I simply don't agree with that. DC have put them together simply for marketing attention and publicity. They haven't built it up like in Kingdom Come so the premise of your argument is flawed. None of that has been shown as of yet so the reason why Superman and Wonder Woman are together is not one that your argument is presenting. Nor is it one I agree with or approve of. By approve of I mean Superman and Wonder Woman together. Not your opinion.

What really irks me about this point of the argument is I built my points up using direct evidence from the comic books. I gave you scenes and events to back my points up and address your concerns. Yet, you think that you can invalidate all of this by saying that you don't agree or accept it. And yet MY argument is the one that's flawed??? You don't like the relationship, fine, that's completely in your right. However, the fact that you won't admit that there's a common link there that could lead to a relationship and that these things ARE present in the comics regardless of whether they were directly used in the build-up to the kiss is ridiculous. Geoff Johns could have done a better job leading up to this relationship, sure, but that doesn't change the fact that everything I mentioned above is THERE. Don't simply turn a blind eye to it because you didn't like the story.

@Jekylhyde14: Can i just copy that dialog anytime that someone says the same crap again!

#29 Posted by Eternal19 (2076 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jekylhyde14 said:

Why the star quarterback analogy??? This version of Superman is a self-described pacifist who's into obscure films and crusading for the poor. He wore baggy clothes that made him look like Harry Potter in Action Comics #1 for crying out loud! This guy does not fit the star quarterback stereotype.

supes is a pacifist? yet he sends a lot of time beating the crap out of supervillians

#30 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (747 posts) - - Show Bio

@Squalleon:

Yes. :)

#31 Posted by Squalleon (4565 posts) - - Show Bio

@Eternal19:he does not fight for no reason!he doesn't even kill villians in video games(action comics 0).With that logic he should allowed darkside to conquer everything!

#32 Posted by Eternal19 (2076 posts) - - Show Bio

@Squalleon: i never said that he fights for no reason. a pacifist is someone who refuses to fight, which doesnt make any sense and doesnt go with his current version, who has been seen to do more brash and violent actions than the pre-new 52 superman

#33 Posted by Squalleon (4565 posts) - - Show Bio

@Eternal19: well he is young, he will learn :-P

#34 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (747 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

EDIT: Also Clark realised the importance of his Clark Kent identity by the end of the story and now Mrs N has rewritten things so that no on remembers Clark Kent's death. Clark Kent is important to the world and can handle the things Superman cannot.

Sure, that's the reason he decided to keep his Kent identity. However, let me point out, that you don't DECIDE to keep an identity if you actually identified yourself as that person. The fact that he had to make the call in the first place is proof that he feels his Superman identity is more important. It's not that Clark Kent isn't important. It's just that he understands that his work as Superman is more vital to the planet than his human life.

@Lvenger said:

They may fight for the same things but Superman and WW are inherently different. Beyond the obvious surface similarities, their characters are not compatible for a relationship which is why I don't like this move by DC.

Prove this statement to me. I gave you all of the reasons that they feel alienated, lonely, and apart from the rest of humanity. You, yourself, admitted they fight for basically the same things. These similarities are all deeper than surface level. It's also not necessary for you to be completely similar to your mate to be compatible. Otherwise we'd all be dating our clones. Prove to me with evidence from the comics that they aren't compatible.

@Lvenger said:

They haven't even spoken to each other and now they're making out?

And I'll give you that Johns could have done a better job or that this decision could have waited. However, let me point out, that Johns utilizes compressed storytelling that relies, perhaps too much, on what goes on off panel and what you already know about the characters. I believe that Johns was hoping that the minimal conversations that Supes and Wondy had were enough to communicate a growing interest in one another. It was obvious that Wonder Woman was concerned after she hit Kal out of anger and that Superman was obviously impressed by Diana. Regardless, the conversation they had leading to the kiss was well-executed and further illustrates my point of how similar they are. Keep in mind, this was just their first kiss and first kisses don't equal true love. The relationship will be expanded in further issues of Justice League.

@Lvenger said:

It's unrealistically nonsensical. And the character of Wonder Woman in her own title is completely different to that of JL Wonder Woman. Additionally, as I said earlier where will they find the time for the relationship in just Justice League? Action Comics, Superman and Wonder Woman are full in terms of their schedule.

We're talking about superhero comics here. Are stories about flying men and rich dudes that fight mobsters without getting killed realistic tales that make perfect sense? These stories are also done by multiple writers and artists so not every characterization is going to remain perfect when you go from book to book. This has always been the case even Post-Crisis when they were attempting tight continuity. Do you think Superman was really the same guy across all four of his books in the 90's? I can tell you he wasn't always. This relationship makes just as much sense as anything in superhero comics. You don't like it. Again, that's great. You are entitled to your opinion. I will reiterate, though, that there is enough evidence in place in the New 52 to make this relationship a perfectly reasonable plot point. I'm sorry if I got a bit miffed, but I work hard to build my arguments using what I've read. It gets to me in these forums when people think they can invalidate the things I've seen and read with a wave of their opinion.

#35 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (747 posts) - - Show Bio

@Eternal19 said:

@Jekylhyde14 said:

Why the star quarterback analogy??? This version of Superman is a self-described pacifist who's into obscure films and crusading for the poor. He wore baggy clothes that made him look like Harry Potter in Action Comics #1 for crying out loud! This guy does not fit the star quarterback stereotype.

supes is a pacifist? yet he sends a lot of time beating the crap out of supervillians

Yeah, I think he's taking a really liberal definition of the word "pacifist." To be fair, he hasn't hit anything that wasn't A) mostly machine or B) just as invulnerable as he is. So he's not a pacifist in the strictest sense but I believe that he won't harm anything that he could actually hurt and that he's at least working towards peace. He wouldn't shoot bad guys in a video game, anyway.

#36 Posted by Eternal19 (2076 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jekylhyde14: he threw guys into walls in action comics

#37 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (747 posts) - - Show Bio

@Eternal19:

I'm just telling you what the man said. Maybe it's a REALLY liberal definition of pacifism. Or maybe it's a split personality thing where Clark is a pacifist while Superman fights. Or maybe he was kidding.

#38 Posted by daredevil21134 (11506 posts) - - Show Bio

@Squalleon said:

@Gambit1024: That would be a mistake of Geoff Johns.He cannot write personalities!

So true

#39 Posted by Lvenger (19342 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jekylhyde14 said:

Sure, that's the reason he decided to keep his Kent identity. However, let me point out, that you don't DECIDE to keep an identity if you actually identified yourself as that person. The fact that he had to make the call in the first place is proof that he feels his Superman identity is more important. It's not that Clark Kent isn't important. It's just that he understands that his work as Superman is more vital to the planet than his human life.

Without Clark Kent in place, how is Superman supposed to identify with humanity now the Kents are dead. He does identify with this identity as it allows him to do things, ie write human interest stories that Superman cannot do. Sure stopping alien invaders is good but this Superman seems to be more involved with the common man problems. An objective he mainly achieves via Clark Kent. Not Superman.

@Jekylhyde14 said:

Prove this statement to me. I gave you all of the reasons that they feel alienated, lonely, and apart from the rest of humanity. You, yourself, admitted they fight for basically the same things. These similarities are all deeper than surface level. It's also not necessary for you to be completely similar to your mate to be compatible. Otherwise we'd all be dating our clones. Prove to me with evidence from the comics that they aren't compatible.

This will be a tricky part to reply for. But here goes: Firstly, they hardly know each other. In this universe, the Justice League aren't too chummy with one another. For some reason, in the 5 years they formed they haven't revealed identities, formed very close friendships and stuff. So Superman and Wonder Woman finally sparking a relationship makes no sense. There's been no romantic chemistry between them, it's just sprung on us in issue 12. Secondly, Clark has been taught different virtues than her. He was raised with a steadfast moral compass in midwestern Kansas. Wonder Woman was raised on an island of Amazonian warriors and a usual part of a warrior's code is willingness to do what's necessary. How's that going to work in a relationship where Superman respects and values all life even the bad guy's? Thirdly Wonder Woman has spent so much time worrying about Steve in danger that the transition from Steve to Superman makes no sense. "But they're along, isolated" you might say. Rubbish! That doesn't justify senselessly making out with an all powerful alien. She's gone from wanting to avoid any kind of relationship to making out with guys when they comfort her.

@Jekylhyde14 said:

And I'll give you that Johns could have done a better job or that this decision could have waited. However, let me point out, that Johns utilizes compressed storytelling that relies, perhaps too much, on what goes on off panel and what you already know about the characters. I believe that Johns was hoping that the minimal conversations that Supes and Wondy had were enough to communicate a growing interest in one another. It was obvious that Wonder Woman was concerned after she hit Kal out of anger and that Superman was obviously impressed by Diana. Regardless, the conversation they had leading to the kiss was well-executed and further illustrates my point of how similar they are. Keep in mind, this was just their first kiss and first kisses don't equal true love. The relationship will be expanded in further issues of Justice League.

That's stupid. I know what you mean but that's poor reasoning. All there was to show interest was Superman showing concern when Diana was attacked by Graves' spirits and Wonder Woman apologizing to Superman about sucker kicking him. That's it. Nothing major to indicate Superman and Wonder Woman's mutual attraction until their talk in DC. And the conversation was not well executed in my eyes at all. In fact it furthers my point of how Johns is clasping at straws with the loneliness demigod cliche that it's overbearingly ridiculous. They've gone for an obvious romance, hence my use of the star quarter back and the head cheerleader. It's a trope used a lot on preppie high school shows or whatever and it bugs me the hell out. Same applies here.

@Jekylhyde14 said:

We're talking about superhero comics here. Are stories about flying men and rich dudes that fight mobsters without getting killed realistic tales that make perfect sense? These stories are also done by multiple writers and artists so not every characterization is going to remain perfect when you go from book to book. This has always been the case even Post-Crisis when they were attempting tight continuity. Do you think Superman was really the same guy across all four of his books in the 90's? I can tell you he wasn't always. This relationship makes just as much sense as anything in superhero comics. You don't like it. Again, that's great. You are entitled to your opinion. I will reiterate, though, that there is enough evidence in place in the New 52 to make this relationship a perfectly reasonable plot point. I'm sorry if I got a bit miffed, but I work hard to build my arguments using what I've read. It gets to me in these forums when people think they can invalidate the things I've seen and read with a wave of their opinion.

Yes yes a relationship is more realistic than flying aliens bending steel but not only was the execution sucky, there is evidence that I find shows why Superman and Wonder Woman are not a great pairing. I know characters are not the same across all of their books and the New 52 demonstrates that clearly. The relationship does not make sense to me as it does to others. And everything in the world is subjective honestly so everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I was tired last night and didn't adequately respond to your post and for that I apologise. Opinions should always be backed up with evidence which is what I've done this time.

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#40 Posted by Lvenger (19342 posts) - - Show Bio

@Squalleon: My opinion is not crap just because it's different from yours. Even less so now I've just backed it up. Think before speaking next time.

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#41 Posted by Squalleon (4565 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: Support it with facts and evidence and then i promise you i will!

#42 Posted by Lvenger (19342 posts) - - Show Bio

@Squalleon: I just have supported it with facts and evidence in case you haven't noticed. And I also said I was tired and didn't respond to properly and I apologised for that. But now I have.

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#43 Posted by Squalleon (4565 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: You argument with @Jekylhyde14

@Jekylhyde14

#44 Posted by Lvenger (19342 posts) - - Show Bio

@Squalleon: No it had me using evidence throughout the argument. What kind of evidence is your scan? An off hand comment that Superman is impressed with her strength. Very weak proof at best.

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#45 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

Still don't like it. It's forced, out of the blue and solely for marketing purposes. It's about as cliched as the star quarterback dating the head cheerleader.

More. Much more, lol.

#46 Posted by Lvenger (19342 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

@Lvenger said:

Still don't like it. It's forced, out of the blue and solely for marketing purposes. It's about as cliched as the star quarterback dating the head cheerleader.

More. Much more, lol.

It is isn't it? I'm seriously considering dropping JL as a result of this shameless marketing ploy by Johns and the editors. I might divert to Marvel and the Avengers line. Hickman knows how to write a team book.

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#47 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@ReVamp said:

@Lvenger said:

Still don't like it. It's forced, out of the blue and solely for marketing purposes. It's about as cliched as the star quarterback dating the head cheerleader.

More. Much more, lol.

It is isn't it? I'm seriously considering dropping JL as a result of this shameless marketing ploy by Johns and the editors. I might divert to Marvel and the Avengers line. Hickman knows how to write a team book.

I wouldn't drop it because of it. I'm a shameless Batman + Wonder Woman fan, but if you like the book its not a big issue. On the other hand, I dropped the book because I legitely thought it was awful back at issue #8.

#48 Edited by Squalleon (4565 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@Jekylhyde14 said:

Sorry but I simply don't agree with that. DC have put them together simply for marketing attention and publicity. They haven't built it up like in Kingdom Come so the premise of your argument is flawed. None of that has been shown as of yet so the reason why Superman and Wonder Woman are together is not one that your argument is presenting. Nor is it one I agree with or approve of. By approve of I mean Superman and Wonder Woman together. Not your opinion.

@Lvenger: That's what i am talking about facts and opinion's!Your opinion is personal the facts are objective.

EDIT: Also Clark realised the importance of his Clark Kent identity by the end of the story and now Mrs N has rewritten things so that no on remembers Clark Kent's death. Clark Kent is important to the world and can handle the things Superman cannot. They may fight for the same things but Superman and WW are inherently different. Beyond the obvious surface similarities, their characters are not compatible for a relationship which is why I don't like this move by DC. They haven't even spoken to each other and now they're making out? It's unrealistically nonsensical. And the character of Wonder Woman in her own title is completely different to that of JL Wonder Woman. Additionally, as I said earlier where will they find the time for the relationship in just Justice League? Action Comics, Superman and Wonder Woman are full in terms of their schedule.

If you remember in Kingdom come superman returned to the Clark Kent identity once again,the one who persuade him was.........dun dun dun WW.

@Lvenger: What did you expect to have a glass of wine before the Kiss!

IN A 30 PAGE LONG MONTHLY COMIC BOOK!

#49 Posted by Lvenger (19342 posts) - - Show Bio

@Squalleon said:

@Lvenger said:

@Jekylhyde14 said:

Sorry but I simply don't agree with that. DC have put them together simply for marketing attention and publicity. They haven't built it up like in Kingdom Come so the premise of your argument is flawed. None of that has been shown as of yet so the reason why Superman and Wonder Woman are together is not one that your argument is presenting. Nor is it one I agree with or approve of. By approve of I mean Superman and Wonder Woman together. Not your opinion.

@Lvenger: That's what i am talking about facts and opinion's!Your opinion is personal the facts are objective.

Ah but there is. In case you haven't been on the Internet, all kinds of attention has been drawn to the Superman/Wonder Woman romance. There have even been reports of sales of the issue sparking in comic shops such as one in Oklahoma. That is the evidence for my argument there. If DC were doing it purely for story value they would have followed up on it more than just in Action Comics 600. There is the evidence for my point there.@Squalleon said:

If you remember in Kingdom come superman returned to the Clark Kent identity once again,the one who persuade him was.........dun dun dun WW.

@Lvenger: What did you expect to have a glass of wine before the Kiss!

IN A 30 PAGE LONG MONTHLY COMIC BOOK!

An Elseworlds story. I will say that I love Kingdom Come and that they did the Superman/Wonder Woman romance right. The build up was there for the relationship unlike in Justice League where it was sudden and made no sense. And don't take that tone with me. This is a discussion, not a shouting match. You're undermining your own point. And finally there isn't going to be enough time for the relationship in the pages of Justice League nor in their own individual titles. Putting two big names together is a pretty poor tactic given the stories that are going on in each titles meaning that the relationship can't get much attention.

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#50 Posted by Lvenger (19342 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

@Lvenger said:

@ReVamp said:

@Lvenger said:

Still don't like it. It's forced, out of the blue and solely for marketing purposes. It's about as cliched as the star quarterback dating the head cheerleader.

More. Much more, lol.

It is isn't it? I'm seriously considering dropping JL as a result of this shameless marketing ploy by Johns and the editors. I might divert to Marvel and the Avengers line. Hickman knows how to write a team book.

I wouldn't drop it because of it. I'm a shameless Batman + Wonder Woman fan, but if you like the book its not a big issue. On the other hand, I dropped the book because I legitely thought it was awful back at issue #8.

8 was an even worse marketing issue. It was basically an advertisement for a lot of big DC stories going on that month. And the Villain's Journey was an improvement. The first 3 parts were. But this is just a step backwards.

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