No One Likes Superman Any More (and how I'd change that)

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Posted by DIOMJK (155 posts) - - Show Bio

So Superman. I knew I would think of some things to say about the Man of Steel eventually. Supes is without a doubt the most divisive A list super hero in all of comics, with people either loving him and what he stands for or else are completely apathetic to him and his stories. There are hundreds of reasons to explain this: He's over powered, he's an icon, he's a role model, his existence basically eliminates need for other heroes etc. etc. But the main reason I keep hearing, the one I think is the biggest thing keeping him from being universally accepted by the comic reading masses, is that he is Dull. just incredibly BORING, plain and simple.

And unfortunately, this is a valid complaint. The average fan could probably only name off a few things about the character that actually define him outside his power set. He's married to Lois Lane, he's the last son of Krypton, he's got a few buddies at the office and he pretends to be the office bitch when he's disguised as Clark Kent. and that's about where it ends. Literally nothing more defines him as a character than that, in the eyes of the public, and most stories I've read only back that up. That isn't to say that these things can't be used to great effect in making an engaging story with an interesting premise, but the fact is that in our minds (and on paper), Superman hasn't had any real permanent changes to his status quo since he got married to Lois Lane way back when.

That brings us to the reboot, with Grant Morrison completely re-vamping the character, as he is want to do, with Action Comics, and veteran George Perez handling the "current" incarnation of Superman in... Superman. And there have been some mixed results, to say the least.

Having read all of the new 52 Action comics (up to issue 7 at the time of this writing), and having seen some reviews and critiques of it throughout the opinion cesspool that is the internet, what we ultimately conclude is that despite a few storytelling problems, Morrison has in effect given us a much more exciting Man of Steel to get behind. His brash, headstrong and arrogant nature, combined with seeing how the world reacts to him before he becomes the poster boy for Justice, cannot be called boring by any means, though if you want to argue about the quality of the stories you sure can make a few points.

Perez's run, on the other hand, tosses aside all that in favor of a more classic Superman tale, slightly tweaked to fit a few editorial mandates. That is it. I wrote before about how this book was one of the most disappointing titles I've read over the reboot, and the fact is it all stems from the excitement I felt after reading Action comics. This was Superman After having grown up and matured a bit, who combines his past personality with what he's learned and experienced, and using that to make him a better person. Aaaaaaand... complete failure. What we got was a series so disconnected from it's recently established origins that I kinda suspect Perez didn't bother reading it, and just wrote Supes as he would have back in the 80's (hell, he probably didn't even read the first issue of JLA!). What we should have gotten was a calmer, more collected and patient Superman who still had some hints of his past. Instead we got what is the equivalent of him having recently been chemically castrated. Sure, as Clark he does get riled up after the ownership of the Daily Planet changed hands, but it was lukewarm at best, and combined with seeing how he reacts to Lois Lane's boyfriend, he comes across as no more than a whiner. I refuse to believe that after 5 years knowing each other, he didn't make a single move on Lois, or that he'd just mope like that when he finds out that (surprise) she's human and needs to get off with a man some times.

Which leads me to my problems with having their marriage erased from continuity. Now, this isn't One More Day, this is more turning back the clock. We all know that the two are going to end up together at the end, we're not stupid and, despite some questionable decisions, neither are DC. This change was done for two reasons

1) Because DC thinks that our heroes need to be single, for a time, in order to be more relateable (as Aquaman and Animal Man have proven, though, this is bullshit)

2) Because Lois and Superman have been together for so long that the average reader has no idea how they got together, at least when it comes to the details/ events surrounding it

But unfortunately, instead of perhaps seeing an entertaining little romp about how the most powerful being in existence and his tough reporter co-worker fall in love, we're subjected to a typical story about unrequited love from a nerdy man who actually has an incredible secret. SNOOORE.

I know that isolation is the big theme that Perez has been pushing onto this book, which makes sense when you're an endangered alien species in disguise who occasionally engages in fisticuffs with a bald man and a super computer, but certainly we could have seen SOMETHING new and surprising from this book. And that's really what it boils down to: It's pushing for change, but it's being much too safe about it

In the end, you have to ask yourselves if a Superman book can ever deliver what I'm looking for in a book, and really all my complaints can and probably are being cast aside by people who defend this book since it is just my opinion (which is true, but doesn't mean they aren't completely valid). But at the same time, I feel that we CAN have our cake and eat it too, that there is a middle ground and a way that can make this character work for a wider audience, without sacrificing his appeal to his current readership. So I've made a few suggestions on how I would see a Superman book working.

First, we should just accept that Superman is insanely powerful. There's really no point in bringing his strength down in a hope that him being only able to lift 100 tons instead of 200 will make him suddenly more likable. Instead, focus on making his adventures more creative, more interesting, and/or more FUN. Go for high concepts like Stormwatch, or go a zany route to make it more entertaining. Or both. There's only so many times we can see our mightiest hero have to stop "A new threat that is laying waste to Metropolis, one that May Be More Powerful Than the Man Of Steel Himself Can Handle!" before we just collectively go meh and pick up something worth reading (such as the ever fantastic Demon Knights, which i shall continue to shamelessly plug).

Once that's established, we gotta give Superman a deeper personality, one that has something more to him than the "Nerd/Hero" duality that most writers seem to rely on. I suggest that they do what Perez should have done from the start, run with the Isolation angle that DC has been pushing, but keep the dick-ish Superman that Morrison and Geoff Johns are crafting in their books. How would you do this? By making his arrogant nature as superman part of his disguise, a front that Clark Kent wears because he's actually deeply insecure about his life due to the lonely he feels, since he can't truly relate with human beings. Boom. There's your book. Check please.

From there, you need to integrate the supporting cast. Hacker Jimmy Olsen? That's just painful in how much of a stock character they're trying to make him. I got a better idea. If you guys haven't heard of it, there's a fantastic mini-series out called Superman: Metropolis, which focuses on Jimmy Olsen. In it, he still is superman's pal, but he stands on his own. He's willing to do whatever it takes to get a shot, he's naive but knowledgeable, and he's just a fun, interesting character, and it even gets a bit tragic. that's what they should aim for. If there's one thing Bucky Barnes and Damian Wayne have taught us, even the lamest of sidekicks, done right, can shine on their own. I don't know much about Perry White, so I'm not gonna mention him, but i'm sure he can't be too hard

Ultimately, what really doesn't work about Lois is that despite being in Action comics, she seems to have no real relationship with Clark to speak of. What they could have done is instead make them close friends. Serious BFF territory. Then continue with the idea that Clark pushes people away due to his inability to connect with humans in order to make tension in the relationship, which is why they never got past "just friends". OR make Lois the one person Clark feels he can truly connect with, which makes her lack of interest in him all the more tragic. The only reason seeing her with that other man had any sort of impact on us is because we know that their SUPPOSED to be together. Instead, emphasis should have been made on WHY they aren't together yet, instead of just "Oh, Clark's a dork".

And that's really all I have to say about this. To clarify, I write these things in order to improve my writing skills and my ability to make clear, concise arguments, So feedback, comments and discussions are much obliged. I DEMAND them. Agree, disagree, better ideas, things I'm ignoring or not touching on? TELL THEM TO ME. And thanks for reading.

#1 Posted by RazzaTazz (9478 posts) - - Show Bio

You write well, and I like your points.  For me Superman is too easy of a character.  

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#2 Posted by Kal'smahboi (3484 posts) - - Show Bio

I was adamant on hating this blog when I started reading, but I agree with absolutely everything you've written here. Recently it seems like DC picks Supes' creative team out of a hat and calls it a day. They fear being creative with his life and tend to rely on the icon factor, something that hasn't helped his book's popularity since his death. Plus, Perez's plots and narrative include every Superman story flaw ever made.

#3 Posted by The Stegman (23081 posts) - - Show Bio

...I like Superman....

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#4 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (746 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think you're wrong at all. I'll admit that I enjoyed Perez's run early on but his stories got weaker with each issue and he didn't seem quite on board with writing the same character as Morrison or Johns as time went on. I'm not too crazy about the fact that Dan Jurgens is taking Superman over from Perez starting with issue #7 either. Even though Keith Giffen is going to be his collaborator, Jurgens was one of the main architects of the milquetoast Superman of the 90's and I don't think it's healthy for Supes to slide back into that routine. Your idea of keeping Superman arrogant to give him personality even reflects some of my own views on how the character should be done (check out this blog post I did awhile back on what I see as Superman's main attributes: http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/jekylhyde14/man-or-superman-part-2-the-man-of-the-silver-age/87-68478/). I also whole-heartedly agree about Olsen. Jimmy's best days were when he had his own title and his own adventures with or without Superman. The New Gods debuted in Jimmy Olsen, after all, and they're some of DC's most dynamic cosmic characters. I imagine you will see more of a flirtation between Lois and Clark after awhile so you may not have much to worry about there, but I definitely agree that DC is in danger of mishandling the Superman monthly comic. Morrison's Action Comics has been one of the top three selling comics since the new 52 began. It seems to me that DC's reluctance to follow its lead has left Superman lagging behind. It's a shame.

#5 Posted by BlackArmor (6134 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Stegman said:

...I like Superman....

yeah....

#6 Posted by DIOMJK (155 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz: Thank you. And that's really the point of the blog: he's just so Iconic that people just go: yeah superman, he can do... whatever. what if he stops a... ball of fire, I dunno. people know him, it'll never be cancelled, just... whatever man. I think the best thing that could happen to supes is just a cancellation, so that DC will step up their game and really get their shit together.

@The Stegman: @BlackArmor: I should have mentioned it, but the title is a reference to a song called "No one likes superman any more" by a band called "I fight dragons". I actually am neutral towards the character, it all comes down to how they write him (for example, All star superman was PHENOMENAL). Here's the song if your curious http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjqqRlgzv6c

@Jekylhyde14: I think the main problem was that Perez was a veteran of 80's DC comics, with titles like "crisis", "JLA" and "teen titans" under his belt. I'm not putting the guy down, but when someone has that strong a connection to the old DCU, I guess it's hard to start from scratch. no ill will to the guy, but I couldn't get into this title at all.

#7 Posted by Onemoreposter (3938 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman is suppose to be the guy who always does what is right. He's much more unrelateable in that sense than the fact that he is almost completely invincible. He's the guy who all the other heroes rely on, even the angsty young heroes or guys who like to think they're self sufficient like Batman.

Superman doesn't need reimagined or tweaked, despite the fact that both happen to him constantly. He is a foundation, what every other hero aspires too. He doesn't do what he does because his parents were murdered, or because his uncle died because of some mistake he made. He does what he does because he can and it's what "right." Truth Justice and the American way. The last part of that has already been taken out, but that is really who he is. Everything that America "should" be is what he stands for. He loves his country, his parents, and his wife.

Some people might think that's boring. I would suggest they read a different comic book.

#8 Posted by DIOMJK (155 posts) - - Show Bio

@Onemoreposter: See, i get that completely on an abstract level. I'm not saying that he shouldn't be someone to look up to, and that the main appeal of his character is that he's the person we all should strive to be. I get it, I'm not trying to debate that. But you still gotta ask yourself, after 70 years, is that enough to support a monthly book? just month after month, an absolutely perfect guy who can do no wrong, who's only rational for his existence is the equivalent of propaganda? I'm not trying to convince you we don't need someone to lead the way, but I am questioning why people should spend 2.99$ a month to see a guy win more often than Charlie Sheen. You're argument works if he was only a member of the JLA who would swoop in whenever necessary, but this is a focus of his own book. After some point, won't people crave more? I can pick up any number of trades to see Superman be the best around (insert 80's pop song here), why should I buy something new?

#9 Posted by Onemoreposter (3938 posts) - - Show Bio

@DIOMJK: Heh, No friend. You're not getting it. And thats ok. I think alot of people don't get it at first.

I don't look up to him. I don't strive to be him. Personally I'm the guy smoking cigarettes in the corner with my shades down drinking a scotch. I'm ready to kill or fight for all the wrong reasons just for the hell of it, and I'm happy with who I am.

It's not that Superman can do no wrong, it's that he just always tries to do whats right. Thats just who he is. We see him flying by on fools missions and we scoff, but he doesn't deter for a moment. It's why we respect and love him, begrudgingly sometimes.

BUY SOMETHING NEW. Superman is who he is. Changing him would make him NOT superman. There are plenty of Superman one off's (Plutonian, Homelander, Hyperion, ect.) for people to buy. If there's not enough interest in the concept then I suppose it just might die and fade away, but changing him to make him "trendy" isn't the thing to do.

#10 Edited by DIOMJK (155 posts) - - Show Bio

@Onemoreposter: Okay, I'll concede that point. but I see no reason why we wan't have both a Superman who can always strive to do the right thing but can also be an interesting character. Your points justify his existence, no argument there. But why can't we have someone to look up to who can break new ground in what this character is capable of? because my argument isn't with superman's concept, it's mostly about how generic his stories have become

#11 Posted by Onemoreposter (3938 posts) - - Show Bio

The stories become generic because of bad writers, not bad characters. The problem isn't that Superman needs to change. The problem is not enough talented writers are handling the character. Check out Grant Morrisons All Star Superman, it's a fairly recent book.

#12 Posted by Psyron (1512 posts) - - Show Bio

He lacks superdickery in the modern age that's why its no fun anymore

#13 Edited by DIOMJK (155 posts) - - Show Bio

@Onemoreposter: that's exactly what I'm getting at, though i'm mainly criticizing editorial decisions, which is the main problem with Superman nowadays, since Dan Didio and the rest of the higher ups seem at a loss on how to convince people he's a worthwhile character. I have in fact read All star superman, thought it was one of the best superman stories I've read, but what probably made that book great is that it was freed from all continuity, so Grant Morrison could do his thing without editors telling him to change it to what they feel superman should be like. The point of my blog was how all these new 52 changes feel so unimpressive to me because of how DC has been forcing writers to script this character. They keep trying to make him relevant in the worst ways, is what i guess is the general point of my writings. There's so much potential, and I feel it's being squandered right now.

#14 Posted by UltimateSMfan (1370 posts) - - Show Bio

@Onemoreposter: Dude are u the voice in my head? seriously all ur points especially the last one are all the things i think about this whole 'Superman is unrelatable,boring'...blah blah blah topic.just never could jot them down all together...Good one!!!

#15 Posted by jrock85 (2874 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman is a great character with a very bland rogues gallery. He needs more antagonists that make him work harder for his victories.

#16 Edited by Onemoreposter (3938 posts) - - Show Bio

@DIOMJK: Dan Didio and Geoff Johns are apes.

@UltimateSMfan: Cheers. Great minds and all that.

#17 Posted by DIOMJK (155 posts) - - Show Bio

@jrock85: That is a great point, especially when you look at the movies. What is it, like 4 films of Lex Luthor? I mean, you have Lex, a bunch of "superman fights himself" stories (Bizarro, robotic supermen, his dark side, kryptonians like General Zod) and Braniac, whose probably the most original of his rogues, but i know very little about him, minus action comics and the animated series. but considering all great villains were invented over 50 years ago in comics nowadays, I guess he's gonna be stuck with these guys indefinitely.

#18 Posted by DIOMJK (155 posts) - - Show Bio

@Onemoreposter: At least Geoff Johns has some talent. it comes down to having a small group of people making big decisions on too many things. Sure, they might be good writers, but that doesn't mean they can control the course of every single book that comes out. Let authors write their own books, keep your ideas out of it. Gail Simone is the best example of this I can name, she left Firestorm because Didio kept re-writing her shit, and that book was terrible

#19 Posted by azza04 (1503 posts) - - Show Bio

I love the concept of Superman but not so much the way they always execute it. I find characters like Hyperion, Mr Majestic, Invincible, Gladiator and several others more interesting than the actual character they were based on...SUPERMAN. That shouldn't be the case.

#20 Posted by GundamHeavyarms (701 posts) - - Show Bio

You do have some good ideas there. I kind of like that superman is a bit of a jerk now. I just hope they don't turn him into batman with primary colors.

#21 Posted by DIOMJK (155 posts) - - Show Bio

@GundamHeavyarms: The funny thing is, Superman was always meant to be a jerk. Look up Linkara's review of the original Action comics #1 (or find a torrent of the issue) and you'll see Superman was supposed to be a communist fighter for the people, who broke the law and was a huge dick to everyone. Sure, his character, his character evolved over the years, which gives us the Icon we know today, but Morrison seems to be trying to make a good blend of the first superman and the modern incarnations personalities. If only the main superman title paid attention to what its fellow writers were doing...

#22 Posted by Primmaster64 (21138 posts) - - Show Bio

You do have valid points....Damn...You are right they should keep the Dick-ish Superman from AC and Justice League. People seemed to like that Superman.

#23 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd like to say that I loved Flamebird and Nightwing (without the Flamebird and Nightwing aspects) and yet I hate Superman. If they made a Flamebird and Nightwing book I'd be reading it for sure.

#24 Posted by Primmaster64 (21138 posts) - - Show Bio
@DIOMJK said:

@GundamHeavyarms: The funny thing is, Superman was always meant to be a jerk. Look up Linkara's review of the original Action comics #1 (or find a torrent of the issue) and you'll see Superman was supposed to be a communist fighter for the people, who broke the law and was a huge dick to everyone. Sure, his character, his character evolved over the years, which gives us the Icon we know today, but Morrison seems to be trying to make a good blend of the first superman and the modern incarnations personalities. If only the main superman title paid attention to what its fellow writers were doing...

That is true the original Superman was not boyscout. he didn't mind spilling blood for the greater good.
#25 Posted by DIOMJK (155 posts) - - Show Bio

@Primmaster64: That was a simpler time, before conservatives lost their minds in the 1950's and banned everything. Golden Age Batman was also very entertaining in his douchebaggery, I personally loved how everyone who seemed to talk back to him would mysteriously wind up dead. Then they both got moral codes and the horror genre in comics died out for a good 40 years. shame.

#26 Posted by Supreme Marvel (11264 posts) - - Show Bio

I grew up in a very rough place in my city. I got into reading comics, more so Superman during my early teens and I wholeheartedly believe Superman is the reason why I'm the person I am today. I am a kind and nice person. I do my best to hold promises I have made and always do what I can to do the right thing. Although I am only human and do a lot of wrong things but I learn from them. I like who I am now and I would thank Superman if I could. :D

I got a friend into Superman about 4 years ago. He also grew up in a rough place in our city. (most of the city is rather rough, we just grew up in very rough areas). I've noticed a few changes in his character. For the better. He helps people a lot more, he doesn't do a lot of douche-y things any more. I put that down to Superman's influence.

So yeah, I believe he should be the same type of person he has been for as long as I can remember.

#27 Posted by Primmaster64 (21138 posts) - - Show Bio
@DIOMJK: Yeah that was a real dickish move in they're part. Golden Age Superman was not Boyscout. I don't know why  they turned him into a goody two shoes. Pretty much all of the cool Superman parts are when he gets angry. When he get into the ''I'll f***ing kill you'' like move. IDK. DC really doesn't know what to do with Superman anymore. Probably that's why they might lose him soon. Heard of that lawsuit?
#28 Posted by DIOMJK (155 posts) - - Show Bio

@Primmaster64: Is it another from the estates of Simon and Schuster? I've heard a few in the past years, mostly about royalties though. What's happening in this one?

And yeah, DC never have any Idea how to approach the character, especially since he basically makes all other heroes obsolete. I find more than anything they play him too safe, so he never really gets put outside the box, so to speak. I personally would love to see him just get involved in a horror or metaphysical type of story for a bit, take him out of his element and see what fun can be had. At this point, they might as well just delve into pure insanity with his stories, just because. Not like Superman's ever gonna get cancelled

#29 Posted by Primmaster64 (21138 posts) - - Show Bio
@DIOMJK: Yes...DC might lose Superman in 2013...or some important parts of his history.
 
Like Wonder Woman things? I always loved the sci-fi part of Superman. I think they should go with that approach. The thing is that Superman has lots of great villains, the problem is that they reuse Lex freaking Luthor. I am sick to death with that guy.
#30 Posted by PowerHerc (81623 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman is my favorite DC superhero and arguably the greatest superhero of all-time.

I have no qualms about vast power level or his uber-morality.

Somebody has to be the ultimate good guy. somebody has to be the strongest. Somebody has to be the best.

The fact that Superman is all three is bound to make some (many) fans unhappy, but I'll take Superman over Spider-Man, Batman, Wolverine or the Hulk any day. I'm glad Superman is the paragon of morality and strength and I'm glad I get such a character to choose over the ones I mentioned previously among many, many others.

#31 Edited by Video_Martian (5645 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Stegman said:

...I like Superman....

Me too. I'm sick & tired of everyone saying that he's "boring" and "unrelatable" and "overpowered"... -_-

#32 Posted by The Stegman (23081 posts) - - Show Bio
@mr.obvious:  
 


@The Stegman said:

...I like Superman....

Me too. I'm sick & tired of everyone saying that he's "boring" and "unrelatable" and "overpowered"... -_-

People don't know what they want, they all say he's overpowered and too much of a boyscott, yet a complaint I'm seeing from the New 52 Superman is that he's too weak and too dark..like wtf??
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#33 Edited by Video_Martian (5645 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Stegman said:

@mr.obvious:

@The Stegman said:

...I like Superman....

Me too. I'm sick & tired of everyone saying that he's "boring" and "unrelatable" and "overpowered"... -_-

People don't know what they want, they all say he's overpowered and too much of a boyscott, yet a complaint I'm seeing from the New 52 Superman is that he's too weak and too dark..like wtf??

Agreed with you in bold, people just complain about a great character b/c either they're haters/trolls or b/c they just can't get into his character but are making others feel bad for liking him. This is why YOU should like what you want to like and not let others influence you all the time. For example, I LOVE Barry Allen, he's my absolute FAVORITE Flash and DC Superhero, and I know that all the Flash fans prefer Wally West and constantly hate on Barry, but I DON'T CARE, b/c Barry's still my favorite and he always will be :)

@PowerHerc said:

Superman is my favorite DC superhero and arguably the greatest superhero of all-time.

I have no qualms about vast power level or his uber-morality.

Somebody has to be the ultimate good guy. somebody has to be the strongest. Somebody has to be the best.

The fact that Superman is all three is bound to make some (many) fans unhappy, but I'll take Superman over Spider-Man, Batman, Wolverine or the Hulk any day. I'm glad Superman is the paragon of morality and strength and I'm glad I get such a character to choose over the ones I mentioned previously among many, many others.

(Gives Hug) <3

#34 Edited by DIOMJK (155 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr.obvious: See, the only thing you said that I have a problem with is that somehow not liking a character and talking about it on a forum is somehow "hating" or "making others feel bad for liking him". I went into this article to just outline a few complaints that are generally made about superman, and try to offer suggestions on how they can make him more interesting without changing what DC is trying to accomplish through the reboot. I avoided for the most part that he is a "Boy Scout", other than a brief mention, and I even wholeheartedly embraced the fact that he should remain insanely powerful. The only times I made reference to his personality was when I spoke about how DC simultaneously made him angrier and wimpier, and ideas on how to use these now canon personality traits to make better stories. The intent of this article was to spark a discussion about whether or not this incarnation of him worked, and maybe try to suggest ways that he can be made interesting without adding poorly written angst, like they did here. The only real attack, if any, I made on superman is the very legitimate complaint that he can be seen as boring. I should clarify by saying it's not Supes himself that is dull, but his stories (occasionally). You cannot deny that the man of steel is so ingrained in the popular conscious that he has remained for almost 25 years in the exact same place he started post-crisis, which is why "No one likes superman anymore" (a hyperbole), implying they have liked him but grew tired of seeing it again and again. a huge cliche (and more often than not, an unfortunate truth) about Marvel and DC comics that their stories are cyclical in nature, and Superman is probably the worst offender. And there's only so many times he can fight Lex Luthor/a personification of his dark side (and yes, I know he has a great rogues gallery, but those tend to be the fallback villains) before people crave something new. That is why editors keep trying, again and again, to change him.

Now, I cannot emphasize enough how Superman isn't always boring, and in fact I have read and enjoyed many of his stories. I completely get his appeal as "the man we should all strive to be" who "always does whats right". That's what makes Grant Morrisons run on him in on action comics so much more interesting. At the moment he's young and over confident, and maybe a bit more wild and violent than we know him, since he still has to grow to that role of "the man you should try to be". But it's seeing him develop and change until he fits that Icon status we have given him that carries the story. Think of it this way: right now Superman is trying to aspire to be... himself. and that's brilliant in my mind. And that's what made shows like Smallville a success.

What DC is getting wrong on the superman title, the thing they have done wrong which puts people like me, who want to like superman, off from buying it, is not the WHO they are selling, it's the HOW. and that is what my whole argument was about. If a story is crappy, even if you love the character, then why buy the book. And if a story leads your character in a way you don't like it, and it is just horribly scripted and plotted, then why pick it up? That's what really makes people give up on Superman: DC doesn't give a shit about the property, other than trying to market it, so the stories suck. My ideal superman would be the same moral absolute demi-god we see him as, but one who can do more than deus ex machina his way into a happy ending.

DO NOT INTERPRET THIS AS AN ATTACK ON THE CHARACTER IN THE ABSTRACT. and this goes for @PowerHerc: @The Stegman: also. these are all my personal complaints on where they are leading him. And I doubt any of you can honestly can say there hasn't been a single character you liked who has had at least one story that had made you angry, or at least disappointed My opinions are only those: opinions, and if you completely disagree that I am just a snobby man on the internet, then whatever. But don't misunderstand what I'm trying to say here.

#35 Posted by PowerHerc (81623 posts) - - Show Bio

@DIOMJK: I'm not mad at you. I'm not attacking you.

I'm just stating that I like Superman. Don't misunderstand me either.

#36 Posted by DIOMJK (155 posts) - - Show Bio

@PowerHerc: I'm sorry then for sounding defensive. I'm just trying to make my points clearer for everyone, and that i actually completely agree with you about what makes superman so popular/likable. I can't deny that with the right story, I can easily be incredibly engrossed reading about Superman just being awesome.

#37 Posted by PowerHerc (81623 posts) - - Show Bio

@DIOMJK:

Everything is cool. No worries.

#38 Posted by joshmightbe (24609 posts) - - Show Bio

I like Superman, a lot of the Superman hate comes from the trend monkeys who think everything has to be dark and gritty, sometimes thats cool like Batman and Punisher but Superman is supposed to be an ultimate symbol of hope and considering he's the most famous super hero of all time he's doing just fine as is

#39 Posted by DIOMJK (155 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe: I'll agree the "make everything gritty" trend has to die. Hard. Now. Have you ever read Atomic Robo by Brian Clevinger? Probably the happiest, least angsty action comic book I've ever read, it's just a crackrock of pure joy. Plus, even Wolverine has been made lighter in Wolverine and the X-men, and that book is fantastic.

#40 Posted by Vance Astro (91117 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman needs better villains.

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#41 Posted by DIOMJK (155 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro: He's had good villains, problem is that since Superman is a hard book to get into, they focus on including his arch nemesis often so people can go "Hey! I know that guy!" (that's why we've had 4 whole movies of that), or they make someone who will either turn him evil, or bring out his equal and opposite (clone, robot-superman, Zod and Bizarro), since obviously to fight a god you need that exact same god. It's a shame really

#42 Posted by Primmaster64 (21138 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Stegman said:
@mr.obvious:  
 


@The Stegman said:

...I like Superman....

Me too. I'm sick & tired of everyone saying that he's "boring" and "unrelatable" and "overpowered"... -_-

People don't know what they want, they all say he's overpowered and too much of a boyscott, yet a complaint I'm seeing from the New 52 Superman is that he's too weak and too dark..like wtf??
Ignorance and hypocrisy my friends.
#43 Posted by Primmaster64 (21138 posts) - - Show Bio
@RazzaTazz said:
You write well, and I like your points.  For me Superman is too easy of a character.  
Hmm there's something wrong with the sentence...if he was easy, then it wouldn't be so hard to write good stories about him. So....Superman is pretty complex.
#44 Edited by buttersdaman000 (9459 posts) - - Show Bio

Although I dont necessarily believe that Superman is boring, I agree with everything you said.

I have been saying for the longest time that being 'relatable' is not for a character named Superman. That has got to be one of the stupidest arguments against him and it pisses me off every time I hear it. Come on....Is Thor really that relatable?? Sure he needs some human aspects but the dude isnt Peter Parker. So what DC needs to do is alienate him from humanity just a bit. He can still have his nerd persona, trouble with Lois, and all but screw that Vegan crap.

Secondly, forget about all the people saying he's too over powered. He isnt. I dont want Superman to be struggling with an air plane in order to make him 'cooler'. I want him to be feared. He shouldnt be getting dogged all the time either.......and remove that pesky magic weakness. It makes no sense. Kryptonite and red sun radiation are the only weaknesses he needs.

Thirdly, and I have been saying this FOREVER, he needs VARIETY in his books. ADVENTURE, ROMANCE, DARKNESS AND SO ON. Like you said yourself, his current shtick is getting boring Let him have a space adventure, get lost in time, travel to alternate dimensions and more! Give me Silver Age wackiness without the Silver Age corniness and voila, the perfect Superman book.

Give him a more diverse rogue gallery. It seems that everybody in Superman's rogue gallery is either a brick or a genius. How about we give him a Silver Surfer type enemy, or a Jean Grey type enemy, somebody who can do more than just bruise him. And cut out crap like Toyman. Nobody cares about him. Zod, Luthor, Mongul, those guys are cool but screw Toyman.

Personality....now here's a tough one. I personally like his righteousness and morals. It plays into his role as Superman. But I dont think he, as a person, should be perfect. SUPERMAN should be perfect, but not him as a person. I think Superman should be the face he puts on for the public, the one telling kids to stay in school, the one who shakes hands with the president and kisses babies on the forehead. But when he goes home, I want to see him get in arguments with Lois....do some of that 'relatable' stuff that people always whine about....but done right. Im not saying that he shouldnt be a good person, he should always be that, but I dont want him to be mother teresa behind closed doors. And also, I always thought it would be cool if Superman sort of looked down on people. Give him a judging attitude, like a God among men......and keep some of his arrogance. Superman should be the poster boy for truth and justice, but when he's alone or with friends or family I want to see some deeper emotions.

And lastly, let him rage some more. Let him show the world why he is the #1

They should also establish who he truly is. Clark kent? Superman? Or Kal-El? Thats one thing I could never quite put my finger on.

#45 Posted by termiteone4ever (6985 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman as long as he maintain who is all these years :) high morals / goody two shoes golden boy dont kill and help and would risk his life while trying he is Superman the wyai grew up and know him in my book for my life time

#46 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm perfectly fine with Superman's character.

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#47 Posted by Primmaster64 (21138 posts) - - Show Bio
@buttersdaman000: I do understand what you said...But in the end it all comes to the writer...
#48 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (746 posts) - - Show Bio

@Primmaster64 said:

@buttersdaman000: I do understand what you said...But in the end it all comes to the writer...

Exactly. Once again: Grant Morrison's Action Comics is a top 5 (usually top 3) selling book. If you get a good writer who has new and exciting ideas about the character then you can get the Superman book to sell. If you get writers (most of whom are actually visual artists by trade) who get bogged down in making him a "relatable" boyscout like they did throughout the 90's then you're going to have some weak stories.

#49 Posted by DIOMJK (155 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jekylhyde14: I find only 2 problems with Grant Morrison's action comics. First, while the writing is decent I don't feel it's up to his usual level of quality (though I can safely say it's above average, I just expected more from him), and that its just so disconnected from the current Superman comic, and that fault lies solely with George Perez. When I read the first arc, we see key characters like Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen. But then we see after 5-6 years absolutely nothing of substance between these characters, other than they work together, which gives you the feeling that no matter how complex or interesting Morrison might make the relationships, ultimately it doesn't matter, nothing comes of it. And that right there is why I don't regularly follow most Superman stories: at the end of the day, nothing gets accomplished, everything is just in a perpetual state of non-movement.

#50 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (746 posts) - - Show Bio

@DIOMJK:

I get what you're saying. As for it being up to his usual quality or not, I'd say wait until he's finished with his run. I know he had a lot of plans for Superman that he'd never been allowed to do and see some things that might be building up to something great in a traditional Morrison way by then end of his arc. Regardless, I'd rather be reading Morrison's Superman than any other modern iteration of the character.

You could be right that other writers will not properly utilize the threads that Morrison sets up. That tends to be a running problem after Morrison leaves a book. No one is able to follow the things he does or no one is willing to follow them up. However, that may not be so different than any other time a comic changes creative direction. I mean, how much in common did Jeph Loeb's Superman actually have with Dan Jurgens even though Loeb's run followed right after. Can't we just enjoy Morrison's run while its happening and complain about the future when we come to it? Believe me, if DC can't follow up on Morrison's run with a decent writer I promise you that I'll complain. Let's just enjoy Morrison's run for what it is and see what happens after.

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