My response to "OFF MY MIND:...MAKING SUPERMAN COOL"

Posted by mattydeNero (525 posts) - - Show Bio

http://www.comicvine.com/news/off-my-mind-the-difficulties-of-making-superman-cool/144995/

Let's face it. We all love SUPERMAN. We all need Superman.

The best place to go with a super-man isn't within himself, but within us. Hear me out before anyone thinks I'm about to wax psychology. Never has there been a story to where Supes is depicted as the villain to the point to where we clearly see him as the bad guy. I'm talking the no-turning-back-say-hello-to-the-bad-guy kind of villian. As some people have said, he's "too powerful."(BTW, grow up, guy). That would be a scary situation. Rejuvenation is at the core of stories I have always been a sucker for as a comic book fan. We need a story to where--in a nutshell of two years or so--Supes destroys the DCU, and then in a moment to where all hope is lost--a year or two later--SUPERMAN. The boy scout, and when it comes down to it, Batman's best non-Batfam pal. Comic fans have to deal with that partnership, but some just can't. A story the would also need Batman to help get Supes over in this comic book age. Superman is, by far, my favorite super hero in the history of Ever. Wven I know that Batman is going to need to play an intricate part in Superman's return to being the forefront/cover boy of the DCU. If a person were to tell me that I would have just said that 15 years ago, I would've forgotten it by now. But seriously, I probably would've laughed in their face. As a young teen I scoffed at Bat-fans, just because. A lot have read some those types on this hilarious message board topic. I digress.

Who can deliver us these precious goods: the ultimate Superman story? Beats me. In my life Dan Jurgens is the only creator that stayed on Supes for a lengthy bit of time(that I can remember). Geoff Johns had a stellar run on Action Comics a few years back but I think he told the Supes stories he wanted to tell and was content at leaving it at that to move on to GL. There's a plethora of names but the truth is, the stars have to align. The fact that so many people have responded to

#1 Posted by sethysquare (3843 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Superman gone rogue before. Not sure if I want a Superman gone rogue. I kinda want a bad ass, kick your butt Superman but at the same time have inspirational speeches that you can look up to. But still bad ass and f*** those bloody villains up.

#2 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio
@mattydee007 said:

 As some people have said, he's "too powerful."(BTW, grow up, guy)

But he is too powerful. If he went rogue, the only person who could possibly stop him is Martian Manhunter. I mean, it took Batman months and months of preparing behind the scenes for the strategy that was used in Tower of Babel.
#3 Edited by redwingx (756 posts) - - Show Bio

If you wanna see Superman gone rogue then watch Superman vs The Elites. @RainEffect said:

@mattydee007 said:

As some people have said, he's "too powerful."(BTW, grow up, guy).

But he is too powerful. If he went rogue, the only person who could possibly stop him is Martian Manhunter. I mean, it took Batman months and months of preparing behind the scenes for the strategy that was used in Tower of Babel.

Hes to powerfull? You must be another batfag. There are far more powerful heroes than Superman in the DC Universe.

#4 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9601 posts) - - Show Bio
@RainEffect said:
@mattydee007 said:

 As some people have said, he's "too powerful."(BTW, grow up, guy)

But he is too powerful. If he went rogue, the only person who could possibly stop him is Martian Manhunter. I mean, it took Batman months and months of preparing behind the scenes for the strategy that was used in Tower of Babel.
Smdh.....The Manhunter would squash him, and so would Flash. Superman isn't too powerful....lol 
#5 Posted by sethysquare (3843 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect said:

@mattydee007 said:

As some people have said, he's "too powerful."(BTW, grow up, guy).

But he is too powerful. If he went rogue, the only person who could possibly stop him is Martian Manhunter. I mean, it took Batman months and months of preparing behind the scenes for the strategy that was used in Tower of Babel.

In the silverage he is equally as powerful as Wonder Woman.

Right now he is pretty much depowered, but yes, still one of the strongest in the universe. That does not make it a weakness. Did you see Hulk being too powerful as being a weakness?

#6 Posted by SandMan_ (4528 posts) - - Show Bio
@RainEffect said:
@mattydee007 said:

 As some people have said, he's "too powerful."(BTW, grow up, guy)

But he is too powerful. If he went rogue, the only person who could possibly stop him is Martian Manhunter. I mean, it took Batman months and months of preparing behind the scenes for the strategy that was used in Tower of Babel.
Uh....No he isn't. This isn't the Silver Age. And even then both Darkseid and Mongul bitch-slapped him around. MM could probably mind rape him...Isn't he too powerful? Flash is too powerful for his own good.
#7 Posted by crestfallen (298 posts) - - Show Bio

The current problem is that character's personality is too silly, with a Karate Kid's syndrome, in which he gets all the blows, and finally with a simple kick he wins the fight. Were you aware that in most of the covers he is always in trouble or getting beat up? That's not very heroic.

I think a Superman version like "For Tomorrow" from Lee/Azzarello will be a perfect choice to put the character back on track.

#8 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio
@SandMan_: @sethysquare: @buttersdaman000: @redwingx
 
Lads, I meant that there is no one on Earth or part of the Justice League who could stop him aside from MM. Superman is as fast/faster than Flash - he's kept up with him easily. Wonder Woman is weaker than Superman. Of course I know there are more powerful beings in the DC Universe, but having a rogue Superman fight villains makes no sense; he should fight heroes. Hence him being too powerful.
 
Also, I'm talking Pre-Flashpoint here.
#9 Posted by SandMan_ (4528 posts) - - Show Bio
@RainEffect: Flash can. Flash is already more faster than Supes, pre or post Flashpoint my friend. Orion is equally as powerful than Supes. Not to be sexist...but Wonder Woman..is a ...Woman...Who wins? A male body builder or athletic woman? I repeat, This isn't the Silver Age where both Superman and Batman had pretty much anything to solver any crap that appeared.
 
About his villains, I only blame Lex Luthor for being such an attention whore. But you focus on his powerhouse villains, Superman know that he might die fighting this guy. What? You want him as a villain?  I don't get the need for that. Just use Zod.
 
Pre-Flashpoint Superman was powerful, but not all powerful like his Silver Age counterpart. I suggest you read John Byrne's Man Of Steel mini-series and read his run back in the 80's if you get the chance.
 
Then I suggest you read Silver Age Superman stories to see the difference between them. 
 
Now...What about Batman? the guy is basically a walking Deus Ex Machina, that can beat anyone with a banana given him time to prepare, and you don't call him overpowered or ridicules? I always try to not use Batman because his fanboys are a headache to deal with.
#10 Edited by redwingx (756 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect said:

@SandMan_: @sethysquare: @buttersdaman000: @redwingx:

Lads, I meant that there is no one on Earth or part of the Justice League who could stop him aside from MM. Superman is as fast/faster than Flash - he's kept up with him easily. Wonder Woman is weaker than Superman. Of course I know there are more powerful beings in the DC Universe, but having a rogue Superman fight villains makes no sense; he should fight heroes. Hence him being too powerful. Also, I'm talking Pre-Flashpoint here.

Just like that hes a villain? You seriously make me wanna punch you. Superman is the greatest hero ever. When people think of a hero, they think of Superman. Hes a symbol of hope, goodness. Superman will never become a bad guy.

#11 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio
@SandMan_ said:
@RainEffect: Flash can. Flash is already more faster than Supes, pre or post Flashpoint my friend. Orion is equally as powerful than Supes. Not to be sexist...but Wonder Woman..is a ...Woman...Who wins? A male body builder or athletic woman? I repeat, This isn't the Silver Age where both Superman and Batman had pretty much anything to solver any crap that appeared. About his villains, I only blame Lex Luthor for being such an attention whore. But you focus on his powerhouse villains, Superman know that he might die fighting this guy. What? You want him as a villain?  I don't get the need for that. Just use Zod.  Pre-Flashpoint Superman was powerful, but not all powerful like his Silver Age counterpart. I suggest you read John Byrne's Man Of Steel mini-series and read his run back in the 80's if you get the chance.  Then I suggest you read Silver Age Superman stories to see the difference between them.   Now...What about Batman? the guy is basically a walking Deus Ex Machina, that can beat anyone with a banana given him time to prepare, and you don't call him overpowered or ridicules? I always try to not use Batman because his fanboys are a headache to deal with.
I'm going based off scans and feats I've seen around the battle forums. I'll admit, the only thing that I actively read with Superman in it was Justice League and Jeph Loeb's Superman/Batman, so I'm not too familiar with the character, but I have seen other people's scans. 
 
@redwingx said:

@RainEffect said:

@SandMan_: @sethysquare: @buttersdaman000: @redwingx:

Lads, I meant that there is no one on Earth or part of the Justice League who could stop him aside from MM. Superman is as fast/faster than Flash - he's kept up with him easily. Wonder Woman is weaker than Superman. Of course I know there are more powerful beings in the DC Universe, but having a rogue Superman fight villains makes no sense; he should fight heroes. Hence him being too powerful. Also, I'm talking Pre-Flashpoint here.

Just like that hes a villain? You seriously make me wanna punch you. Superman is the greatest hero ever. When people think of a hero, they think of Superman. Hes a symbol of hope, goodness. Superman will never become a bad guy.


You're an idiot. Have you even read the intro post to this thread? The user who posted this gave the idea that Superman should become rogue to become interesting again. Stop wanking to your favorite character and start paying attention.
#12 Posted by SandMan_ (4528 posts) - - Show Bio
@RainEffect: Superman can't beat everyone, and can't do everything, but since he is called SUPER-man I pretty much think that some of the things he should do should be ridicules for human eyes in the sense that we can't do those feats.
 
And even in Justice League Superman still got his ass kicked. 
 
Loeb....Do I really need to write anything?
 
I could suggest some Superman stories, if you are willing to read, so you can actually see what Superman is all about. 
 
Though I'll admit it, they should stick with a powerlevel, they should pick John Byrne's Superman's powerlevels.
#13 Posted by CODYSF (2053 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect said:

@SandMan_: @sethysquare: @buttersdaman000: @redwingx:

Lads, I meant that there is no one on Earth or part of the Justice League who could stop him aside from MM. Superman is as fast/faster than Flash - he's kept up with him easily. Wonder Woman is weaker than Superman. Of course I know there are more powerful beings in the DC Universe, but having a rogue Superman fight villains makes no sense; he should fight heroes. Hence him being too powerful. Also, I'm talking Pre-Flashpoint here.

Just when you said that Superman is faster then the Flash your comment is invalid.

#14 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio
@CODYSF: I said fast as/faster than. I've seen other people debating in Superman battles, and they showed scans of him moving at the same speed as Flash (when Supes isn't holding back).
#15 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9601 posts) - - Show Bio
@RainEffect:  
You kind of just proved your own opinions worthless. You can't base a character off of what scans you see on the internet. He's not overpowered at all. In fact, I think he should be slightly more powerful. I always find it funny how this argument of being 'too powerful' only falls on Superman. Is he the sole scapegoat or something? Martian Manhunter has almost the exact same powerset and levels as Superman plus some. Flash is so fast it's just plain illogical he loses to anybody short of an Omnipresent threat. Captain Marvel, just like Superman and an even bigger Boyscout (Yet never condemned for that reason), has an added magical element. I can go on.  
And I find it funny how somebody with a Batman avatar is complaining about a character being overpowered. Batman might not be able to bench press a moon, but I bet you he can prep it to death. I mean his ridiculousness is so prevalent there are even memes for it lol
#16 Posted by SandMan_ (4528 posts) - - Show Bio
@buttersdaman000: haha!
#17 Posted by CODYSF (2053 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000 said:

@RainEffect: You kind of just proved your own opinions worthless. You can't base a character off of what scans you see on the internet. He's not overpowered at all. In fact, I think he should be slightly more powerful. I always find it funny how this argument of being 'too powerful' only falls on Superman. Is he the sole scapegoat or something? Martian Manhunter has almost the exact same powerset and levels as Superman plus some. Flash is so fast it's just plain illogical he loses to anybody short of an Omnipresent threat. Captain Marvel, just like Superman and an even bigger Boyscout (Yet never condemned for that reason), has an added magical element. I can go on. And I find it funny how somebody with a Batman avatar is complaining about a character being overpowered. Batman might not be able to bench press a moon, but I bet you he can prep it to death. I mean his ridiculousness is so prevalent there are even memes for it lol

Dam way to tell him my hat is off

#18 Posted by sethysquare (3843 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: i love how batmam fanboys will argue to death that batman can do anything just anything with prep

#19 Posted by Jekylhyde14 (747 posts) - - Show Bio

If you want to see Superman cut loose and wreck havoc on a world then read Irredeemable. It's exactly what you want and it's a great read by Mark Waid. But, no, I wouldn't want to see the actual Superman do that. It's called "irredeemable" for a reason. How can you commit mass murder and then show up whistling and smiling in the offices of the Daily Planet like nothing happened?

#20 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio
@buttersdaman000: @SandMan_: @CODYSF: @sethysquare:
 
Stop mentioning Batman. I only mentioned Batman once, and I talked about the Tower of Babel incident, which took Bruce months of prepping to be able to incapacitate Superman. I have not harped on about him, and just because I have an avatar of him, does not mean I am a fanatic about him. Could it be that, maybe, just maybe, I saw the Dark Knight Rises and was inspired to put my avatar as that? Next.
 
This thread was originally about the idea of making Superman more interesting again. I'm all for that. I dislike Superman, but I'm not beyond having my opinion changed. If he is written well, in a story arc that is actually interesting, I might change my mind. The original posted of this thread suggested the idea of Superman going rogue - that wasn't my idea, that was his. I merely stated the fact that, if he did go rogue, he could stomp the majority of Earth's heroes. Superman is constantly written as though he is holding back, because he fears how much power he has. If he wasn't holding back, I debated that no one could stop him. Next.
 
I haven't been told. Next.
 
Yes, I admit there is little value in merely stating things based off scans on the internet, but they are scans, and at least I was honest enough to admit it. Remember, feats are everything on this site. If someone has supplied feats that suggest Superman can match Flash's speed, fight faster than Wonder Woman and tank more damage than MM, then I have the right to say he is, at the very least more powerful than the lot of them.
 
Did I miss anything?
#21 Posted by SandMan_ (4528 posts) - - Show Bio
@RainEffect
 
I mentioned Batman because nobody ever questions him when he pulls a a freaking impossible feat that would require someone superhuman to do. Nope, everyone is like '' Batman is badass and bla,blah,blah'', then when someone ask how he does that they say ''Because he's the goddamn Batman'' or some BS like that. That's why I mentioned him, not because of your avi.
 
I suggest you read Mark Waid's irredeemable series if you want to see a rogue Superman. There are well written and cool Superman stories, you just have to look for them. I could suggest them if you want. But you need to read them before judging my friend.
 
Again, read the book dude. So you can learn what is happening, so you can understand why he does that.
#22 Edited by redwingx (756 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect: Or watch the movie Superman VS the Elites if you wanna see a Superman gone rogue. Seriously what's next? Turn Spider-man into a villain because hes not interesting to you guys anymore?

#23 Posted by Z3RO180 (6458 posts) - - Show Bio

@redwingx: i think you better calm down

#24 Edited by redwingx (756 posts) - - Show Bio

@Z3RO180 said:

@redwingx: i think you better calm down

For what reason?

#25 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9601 posts) - - Show Bio
@RainEffect said:

I dislike Superman, but I'm not beyond having my opinion changed. If he is written well, in a story arc that is actually interesting, I might change my mind. 
I was about to reply in full to your post but then I came across this line. You just said, that most of what you know about the character is based off of scans and like one story arc, right? So how do you even know how he is written?? What could possibly change the mind of somebody who bases dislike off of secondhand sources? Wait...how about you read some of his stories?? All-Star Superman, Brainiac, Last Son, For Tomorrow are a few you can start out with. And hey, I started out where you were. I disliked Batman (yeah i'm bringing him up again) just because he was over used and godly....but that dislike was based on scans. So, I actually decided to pick up a Batman comic and it turns out I actually like the character (Although my initial opinion hasnt really changed) 
#26 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9601 posts) - - Show Bio
@RainEffect:  
Oh, and here are some scans for you....
Flash is faster than Superman (Highest reaction speed shown is nanosecond.....which is 1000 times slower than Flash) 
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/51213/982248-flash_picosecond_part_1_super.jpg 
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/51213/982249-flash_picosecond_part_2_super.jpg 
 
Due to her training, Wonder Woman actually reacts quicker than Kal (although the difference wouldn't be enough to clench victory for her) 
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/54965/1907981-faster_hand_to_hand_reactions_than_superman.jpg
#27 Posted by BiteMe-Fanboy (7737 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman rules. And without him comics wouldn't be the same. Like him or hate him. He's the king of comics.

#28 Edited by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman isn't too powerful, his villains just aren't powerful enough. I mean, yeah, you got Brainiac, Zod, Mongul, and Darkseid (who some wouldn't call a Superman villain, but I would). Then there's Toy Man, Bizarro, Livewire, and all the rest of those who could never be a viable physical challenge for the Last Son of Krypton.

Bizarro is too stupid to be a viable threat. Livewire just isn't powerful enough, and Toy Man? Toy Man's freaking lame.

Either give Superman new villains, or make his old ones threatening. That is, in my opinion, why he's being put down.

@BiteMe-Fanboy said:

Superman rules. And without him comics wouldn't be the same. Like him or hate him. He's the king of comics.

Oh, and this. Superman rules.

#29 Posted by Lvenger (19320 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000 said:

@RainEffect said:
I dislike Superman, but I'm not beyond having my opinion changed. If he is written well, in a story arc that is actually interesting, I might change my mind.
I was about to reply in full to your post but then I came across this line. You just said, that most of what you know about the character is based off of scans and like one story arc, right? So how do you even know how he is written?? What could possibly change the mind of somebody who bases dislike off of secondhand sources? Wait...how about you read some of his stories?? All-Star Superman, Brainiac, Last Son, For Tomorrow are a few you can start out with. And hey, I started out where you were. I disliked Batman (yeah i'm bringing him up again) just because he was over used and godly....but that dislike was based on scans. So, I actually decided to pick up a Batman comic and it turns out I actually like the character (Although my initial opinion hasnt really changed)

Now this is a response and a half.

#30 Posted by sethysquare (3843 posts) - - Show Bio

@RainEffect said:

@SandMan_: @sethysquare: @buttersdaman000: @redwingx:

Lads, I meant that there is no one on Earth or part of the Justice League who could stop him aside from MM. Superman is as fast/faster than Flash - he's kept up with him easily. Wonder Woman is weaker than Superman. Of course I know there are more powerful beings in the DC Universe, but having a rogue Superman fight villains makes no sense; he should fight heroes. Hence him being too powerful. Also, I'm talking Pre-Flashpoint here.

Even pre flashpoint, there are tons of people who could stop him. If he turns rogue, Martian Manhunter can go up against him. Also, who says it would have to be a fair fight. If Superman goes rogue, all the justice league need to do is attack him together. Even now, it took the whole league to fight against Martian Manhunter, I'm sure post flashpoint MM is much stronger than Kal. Besides, WW can go up against Superman and with the league's help she can easily defeat WW.

Weird that you don't consider WW overpowered. Just saying.

#31 Posted by SandMan_ (4528 posts) - - Show Bio

There's always Captain Marvel.

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