@sog7dc: Fair enough, I just hope that the writing of Pak and Snyder shines through more in the future than Lobdell or Giffen's style.

@squalleon: Definitely. Though they already did it with Superman Prime, they just took Kal El of another universe (who barely made many appearances), made him evil and for no reason he was ridiculously overpowered.

@frozen: Superman Prime is a rediculous character, I just read Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds and the only thing that came to my mind at the end was "really?".

I can understand his character. He was from a pre-crisis universe, destined to become Superman, until his entire universe was destroyed and wiped from existence (he also witnessed other universe getting destroyed), he was then stuck in the Paradise Dimension and watched a new Superboy emerge, etc. Batman had his parents die, Superman had his planet explode, but Superman Prime had his universe wiped from existence (and he was forced to remember it).

The only thing they did wrong was make him stupid; because he was relatively intelligent in his first few appearances.

I also wondered why his power levels were so high. He was toying with Superman, Power Girl and Supergirl at the same time until he became weakened. I think it was because when the SA Superman met him, he remarked how Prime was unusually powerful.

@lvenger: I love Greg Pak. I buy everything he writes, and he hasn't disappointed yet. His Superman is incredible. Awesome characterization, and a witty dynamic between Clark and Lana make for a fun read. However, he definitely writes him as a very brash character (just look at Action Comics #28). I think it's a big push DC's editors have been giving to Superman writers to make him seem younger. And he totally does seem younger. That's the source of the problem, but I don't really see it as a problem myself. Granted, many writers have him coming across as very ignorant and pretty rude overall. And his stubbornenss could rival Bruce's at times. But Pak doesn't write him that way. He wrote the young Superman from the first Batman/Superman arc that way, but contrasted it with the experienced (Pre-52 like) Superman from Earth 2. That's where Pak has it set and it's wonderful. Young Supes is an a-hole, current Supes is no longer an a-hole but is certainly still brash and unthinking at times, and older Supes is the beloved Boy Scout.

I love the way Pak writes him in Action Comics though because he has flaws. My biggest problem with Superman (before I read All Star for the first time years ago and finally "got it") was that he was too perfect. A very boring character. He had every power under the sun (pun intended), nothing could really kill him, and he didn't have a single flaw to his personality. But that's what made Superman so legendary, and made a story all the better when a writer could make you forget he isn't human. Fact is, this young Superman is no longer this paragon of truth, this god of justice, this icon of the American way. We need to be patient and watch him grow into that. It's such a drastic change because Superman had always been that character, even all the way back in the '40s. I welcome this new journey towards being the legend we love. It's gonna be a hell of an entertaining journey.

So, he's finally a interesting character that's the problem?

@lvenger said:

@sog7dc said:

At this point I feel like it's "either get with it or get lost". This is the new reality for Superman. He's static. When you exist for over 75 years you're bound to change. In this sense superman is a reflection of mankind. A creature of the zeitgeist. Just accept it.

I'm all for adapting to change mate but don't you think that Superman becoming something he isn't doesn't seem...iffy to say the least?

The way I look at it is that Superman isnt becoming something he isn't. This is just who he is in the new 52.

This is pretty much my feeling on it, every age and time period from the Golden Age to the present day has redefined who Superman is and what he represents.

I remember reading a few years ago about people having problems coming from Pre crisis Superman into post crisis Superman because he killed a few times in canon (and other issues) but it's like now that the New 52 Superman has come out the post crisis Superman has become the definitive version or whatever, well he's not. Superman changes and evolves and this is just the latest change in his continuing evolution, during his next reboot he'll likely change again; it's just the nature of the beast.

Can't we jaunt enjoy this new version of superman. The whole point of the New 52 is take a new spin at these characters and this is Superman at the start of his carer. He isn't going to be the Boy Socut the last incarnation was.

@black_arrow said:

LOL Mogul is the best friend of Superman and Batman.

PAUSE!

Best post on this entire thread.

@jaken7: A well written post but I do have to disagree with Superman being too perfect and too boring before. I assure you, none of those conditions apply to a well written Superman. There were way more powerful beings than him making more challenges for Superman to overcome, the right decision didn't always come easy to Pre New 52 Superman and he was flawed before the New 52. It's just that Pre New 52's characterisation comes off much better and more authentic than the New 52 Superman does initially. That's the problem with how the New 52 has characterised Superman.

Aww shucks. Thanks.

No, no. Nothing to disagree with. You misunderstand what I meant. I didn't mean Superman was too perfect and boring before All Star Superman, just that my view of the character was that way until I was enlightened by All Star. I also don't mean that his perfection was a flaw, because obviously a well written Superman will still be faced with obstacles (as you said), and it actually helps set the bar for writers to humanize him. I mean that I think it'll be really cool to watch how Superman eventually became that character for the first time. Pre New 52 Superman was practically born with the traits that molded him into that god. New 52 Superman didn't have Ma and Pa Kent's influence throughout his life to lead him down that path (something that was touched upon in Pak's first arc of Batman/Superman). Building Superman up to that legendary personality I think will ultimately make it have more weight. Prior to the New 52 we really took his parent's influence and his general personality for granted. I'm really interested to see that evolution of the character.

Spot on. That journey is just as important as the end result and twice as impactful in my opinion. Kudos sir.

I dont see the issue here. Whats wrong with DC wanting superman to be an actual character and not just some metaphor for moral absolutism.

Personally Love all the different iterations of Superman because they show somewhat different yet an overarching characterization of the hero. I really love him now. I defend him at school explaining everything. I even like Lobdells rendition although i don't agree with some parts. He's young but slowly changing. Soule, Snyder, Pak and Lobdell show a very great development of his personality from brash and a-hole isn to more thoughtful.

Superman's just coming full circle is all. Won't be long before we see him demolish an entire inhabited, low-income neighborhood because he thinks it will force the government to make new homes.

lol

@jaken7: Ah I see what you're saying now, that viewpoint is totally understandable mate.

So what exactly is it that springs to mind for people when they think of Superman as a boyscout? We've already seen on several occasions that Superman doesn't prioritize following the law above all else in the New 52, and that if it gets in the way of his helping people he won't let it stop him. Is that not enough to negate the boyscout term? Maybe I'm alone in this, but I love this characterization of Superman. He's here to protect and to help, but that doesn't mean he's going to snap necks to do it. He is still an extremely nice person who wants to help people as best he can. Besides, this is hardly the first time he's been portrayed as something other than a boyscout. I'd wouldn't call Golden Age or even Silver Age Supes a boyscout, so what makes this such a "betrayal" of the character?

@melodet: It's more to do with certain writers in how they portray Superman in the New 52 IMO. Geoff Johns wrote Superman as a simple, aggressive brute in Justice League which goes against Johns and other writer's accurate portrayal of Superman. Also Lobdell's writing of Superman is just plain wrong so that feeds a lot of Superman antagonism from the fans. The way you describe him would make for a good Superman portrayal but that isn't always the case in the New 52.

@lvenger: After re-watching the Christopher Reeve movies, it begs me to question what is really wrong with a Superman like that? What's so bad with having a Superman that is inspiring?

@frozen: because it gets old. For instance, take movies' tagline of believing that a man could fly. This was in response to the films at the time groundbreaking special effects. With other superhero movies being dime a dozen nowadays, that wouldn't work. That wouldn't cut it because that's not enough. Similarly, characterization as some indominatable paragon of truth and justice wuldn't be enough either. This is one reason why the "Clark is a mask, Superman is the real identity" style of writing is considered outdated, as well as it being, ya know, stupid.

@frozen: What was your interesting comment in reference too mate? My OP or the portrayal of Superman in the New 52?

This guy again. =D I'm out, peeps.

@jimishim12: Shh..this guy doesn't know what a three D character is. He wants a Superman that is just good, not shades of gray, no doubts, no nothing, even if at the end of it all he decides to do the right thing.

Superman should know smoking weed is illegal in most states and should stop people that smoke weed to him instead of a character that is a real person who internalizes the situation and makes the best possible decision based on what he thinks is right and wrong.

To Lvenger: Clark is still a boyscout, buddy. He knows right from wrong and he does it. He's just not a the 1D character you want him to be. Even in the SM/WW book, you refused to see the inherit goodness of Clark and his choice to save Wonder Woman even at his own expense and you chose to just say "The fight was boring". We get it, you don't like N52 Superman, but he's here to stay! Enough whining about it and either enjoy it or stop buying the books.

GOD! It's been 2 years, get over it!!!

OP.

I don't think Superman was ever supposed to be a boyscout, he was always supposed to be a crusader for justice. Boyscout was the misconception that arose Post-crisis, in the same vein as calling Batman insane.. I like this assertion, dunno if I would call Earth 2 Superman their best Superman.

Agreed.

I dont think Supes was ever supposed to be a boy scout. And mentioning post crisis, John Byrne Superman wasnt particularly boyscout-y either.

I think Superman was always supposed to be a moral example, and was therefore less unsure on ethical issues, and thats the one big change that I see: Superman is unsure sometimes, about what is right or wrong. And honestly, I think that uncertainty makes for the most interesting drama possible for a character like Supes. Its part of the reason I loved Kingdom Come so much, Superman screws up in that book, and then even realizes that he doesnt know the right answer and doesnt have the right to decide.

Basically, I dont believe the Boy Scout Superman ever existed, it was always an illusion levelled at Superman as a criticism. But before, he was 100% sure in every moral decision, and now he is not. I prefer this.

@superguy1591: Wow way to totally misinterpret and INCORRECTLY portray my views on New 52 Superman with your subjective and prejudiced judgemental BS. I have no idea why you have it out for me as a Superman fan but you seem to mistake constructive criticism for actively hating the portrayal of the character. When you could not be more wrong. I actually LIKE the New 52 Superman and have praised Morrison's Action Comics' run, Snyder's Superman Unchained series and Greg Pak's Action Comics run for their portrayal of Superman. Heck, even though New 52 Superman himself may not be the best version, these Superman titles have been the best Superman stories ever since the post New Krypton status quo.

Yet you mistake my criticism of the poorly executed Superman/Wonder Woman romance for hating this version of the character when I only dislike this aspect of New 52 Superman. The Superman I've always loved has never been a 1D character, he wasn't one Pre Flashpoint and he wasn't one in the New 52 when done right. It seems you have an incorrect portrayal of me as a Superman fan, one that I have now shown is absolutely and utterly wrong. Now please do as you said you were going to do in the first comment and get out of my thread since your comments against me are accusing me of utter rubbish that has no support or foundation to it. Your comments on here are not welcomed by me and I don't approve of you slandering me as a Superman fan and as a user on here. Get over yourself and your apparent desire to try and bully me.

@lvenger: Wah? You like N52 Superman? News to me, here you are whinning about him saying he's not a "boyscout" when his actions in the N52 have proved his still a good man just trying to do well.