@nerx: Darksied used his omega beams on him in the first 5 issues of justice league and it only managed to slow supes down

@sog7dc: new continuity

@nerx: Canon issue

@sog7dc: OBeams does not even function the same

@nerx: How do u know that?

@sog7dc: did it do anything remotely close to the old omega beams?

did it curve

did it cause pain

did it annihilate

did it BFR?

@nerx: I don't have the issue in front of me but yea I think it did curve, it did cause pain because irenember it knocking him out for a while. And it did bfr him to apokalips

@sog7dc: non-lethal shot then

Oh Jesus the omega beams are the same ppl,stopping being overly anal about them,they can follow u,incinerate u,teleport,so they are the same.

@nerx: My whole point is that superman is on surfers level. And he's faster than surfer. But supes is the only character on

That level with a weakness

@sog7dc: powers too limited, and no he is not herald level (at least when written at their prime, now marvel nerfs everyone)

@nerx: Prove to me the superman is not on the same level as surfer. He's faster and stronger

Superman doesn't need a retcon. He's great when he's being written by competent writers.

@sog7dc: Only means to deal with opponent is his fists and limited energy emission

power cosmic allow surfer to amp physical powers along with massive manipulation of fundamental forces and more. Both are FTL although surfer has more experience, and also he can take away the solar charge from Kent.

@nerx: Heat vision(instant labotamy) freeze breath gamma vision wind breath, he can make a vaccuum around u with his speed, he is physically stronger and faster than surfer and what experience does surfer have other than destroying planets with nobody as strong as he is for galactic to eat

Surfer has greater manipulation powers,Superman has more dynamic powers

@sog7dc: all energy to be manipulated and SS has travel speed to dodge and move around while rearranging matter

he fought those stronger a tyrant then tenebrous and aegis

debate here- http://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/does-superman-always-win-superman-vs-silver-surfer-755651/?page=1

this site's consensus - http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/superman-vs-silver-surfer-1335/?page=1

This is getting ridiculous,the topic is how you would retcon Superman,not who is better supes or surfer,get on topic,or get out of this thread,you BOTH have derailed it for to long already.

@stephens2177: This is my thread. I'll talk about what I want. Boone else has reaponded to the op but nerx has responded and his response stimulated out exchange. So hop off your high horse

@stephens2177: A site with an agenda and a thread of ONE surfer vs supes debate. I could find the same thing with opposite sentiments. And surfer doesn't have the reaction speed supes has

Well I'm glad you don't really care about your topics,you just wanted someone to talk to.

Back on topic

-I like that MoS had baby Clark having to get used to earth atmosphere

- powers grew over time

- Lois finds Clark,she knows who he is,and what he can do,and she is his confidant

- am kent is alive

- gets his super suit from not from his mother,or a brainiac ship,but from a kryptonian ship,where he DL's his fathers program to explain his history,and what he can do.

- works at daily planet as a freelance reporter so he can come and go as he pleases

-Clark doesn't have to be a nerd to hide that he is Superman

Weaknesses

- kryptonian atmosphere like in MoS,but can also be synesized into a solid piece of kryptonite

-the only suns that power him is yellow suns,and no other sun takes his powers away

-magic only works if its powerful enough,not magic,just because its magic,and when it works it effects him the same as everyone else,not any worse

Powers

- powers grow over time,and seems to never stop growing

- super senses had to be slowly adapted to

- heat vision hurts,and makes his eyes veiny,like the movie

-flight comes last

-Does have super lungs,which gives him hurricane breath,ice breath,and sonic scream

- absorbs all forms of light,so he can see on all wavelengths,and can emit all forms also,but only in basic or broad ways,no crazy manipulation powers

-fast,only one faster is flash,and only by a little

-most durable being on the planet bar none

-strongest,equalled only by Wonder Woman

-super intelligence,coluan level,but with human sensebilities

-brain is to advanced to mental attack him and work

@stephens2177: Oh I'm sorry I dint know conversation wasn't allowed here

But we already have Zod for that. And plus, this already happened in Injustice: Gods Among Us.

Turning Superman into a dark, twisted anti-hero defeats the point of the character.

@sog7dc: new 52 superman easily lift earth weight,he can move earth with easily

pre-52 superman needs help to moved earth

Pre-crisis superman just another legion

Abilities

Strength: Capable of moving\bench pressing a planet the size of Jupiter. Basically make him only a little bit stronger then Pre-reboot Majestic (when written at his strongest)

Durability: Can tank multi-planet busting attacks with only some damage, can tank Supernovas without being KO'd etc

Speed: His current travel speed is fine, but make his reaction speed almost as fast as his travel speed.

Punching power: Able to destroy an asteroid much larger than with only a few unrestrained punches.

Healing factor: He should be able to heal from most wounds given some time to recover

Heat vision: A full powered blast is hotter then the sun and can vaporize large asteroids into nothingness

Ice breath: He can control the severity of the breath, but at full power, his ice breath is absolute zero

Endurance: He should have the abilities to fight for entire days without rest

Senses: Are fine as they are.

That way he's still very powerful, but not as Silver Age level (even though I think that'd be rad if it was, there'd be too many whiners).

Also, make Kryptonite so that it gradually weakens Superman (as they've sort of already been doing) instead of just outright reducing him to completely helpless. Get rid of the magical weakness.

Also, red sunlight should be something Clark just can't absorb, not something that robs him of his powers. Basically, if he's under a red sun, he has to really retrain himself or risk draining his solar reserves as he can't just absorb more sunlight. Though, red sun based laser weapons should be able to hurt him.

The Fortress

Things like the Sword of Superman, Miracle Machine, Legion Flight Ring (w/ time travel) and the Superman Thought Robot should be in the Fortress, though he'd only ever use them against multiversal threats as a last resort due to the fact they drastically warp time and space just by being activated.

Give Superman the baby Sun Easter, just like in All-Star Superman. He should also occasionally use the advanced alien arsenal of weapons he has, when the situation calls for it.

Otherwise though, I'd keep the Fortress the same.

Enemies:

Upgrade Darkseid so Superman stands practically no chance against him, no matter how bloodlusted or sundipped he may be, and reserve him as an enemy only to be used in major stories of the JLA or crossover events. Though, Superman should have protection from the Source Wall so it at least makes some sense as to why the Omega Beams can't one-shot him, like they should be able to.

Mongul should be in possession of all the rings of all the Lantern Corps (minus Black and White).

Make Doomsday physically superior to Superman (minus the flight, heat vision, super breath and extra senses), so he has to use his extra powers, fighting ability and intelligence to beat him.

They should also use some of Superman's more forgotten enemies such as Reactron, Ruin, Dominus, Riot, Titano, Blaze and Satanus, Atlas, the Atomic Skull, Conduit, Prankster, Vyndktvx and Imperiex. Maybe they could form a team or something (Well, not Imperiex, but the rest of them). Also reintroduce Triumph first as a villain but Supes convinces him to be a hero.

Also, I think having two villains based off Superman Red/Blue would be cool (I know Livewire exists, but that's not the same). Also Harvey Dent/Superman of Earth 9 should be made a regular Superman rouge.

In regards to Earth's other heroes:

- Shazam is equal to him in strength, Superman has greater durability, Billy is faster, Superman has more versatility, Billy has better endurance (give him basically unlimited stamina). Billy should be wiser and a better tactician (thanks to the Wisdom of Solomon), Superman should have greater raw intelligence and should be able to "think" faster.

- Flash is faster then him in both travel and reaction speed. Though Superman should still be able to follow him with his eyes and be able to react to him after a few unanswered punches, assuming Flash isn't giving it his 100%.

- Wonder Woman isn't as strong or as durable, nor does she have the travel speed Superman possesses, though she has slightly better reaction time, holds back a lot less, and is a better fighter

Stories/Arcs:

Have a storyline that gets rid of Superman's magic vulnerability. A magic villain comes along and beats down Superman, someone like Zatanna comes in and saves the day. Superman realizes his magical vulnerability is a result of him not fully accepting and believing in magic, so he goes around meeting and going on adventures the various magic based characters in the DCU (Zatanna, Swamp Thing, John Constantine, Etrigan, Madam Xandu, Phantom Stranger, the Spectre, Shazam etc). He finally learns to accept magic and loses his vulnerability to it. The story should end with the magic based villain from the beginning escaping prison, Superman coming to stop him, the villain boasting that Superman can't beat him and then Clark effortlessly takes down the villain.

Have more stories of Superman going into space and to far off planets, fighting inter-galactic tyrannical empires without killing anyone, going up against cosmic threats, saving an alien race from someone like Imperiex, going into alternate universes and alternate timelines and maybe even a story were he's framed for some galactic crime and has to escape the Green Lantern Corps while trying to prove his innocence. Granted, we shouldn't have too many of these and most of Superman's stories should be Eath based, but the occasional one should be good to spice things up.

Things I wanted to say but couldn't think of a place to put them:

- Ma and Pa Kent should still be alive

- Clark should be a vegetarian

- Clark should see some other women that aren't Wonder Woman and Lois Lane for a bit longer, before eventually getting back together with Lois.

- He should grow a beard for a little bit, when off in space for an extended period (because beards are cool)

- Superman should be essentially immortal in that he won't die of old age and any stories involving the future Superman should make him stronger then the younger version, unless he's been poisoned by some form of Kryptonite or under constant red sun radiation

first of all thanks for posting. secondly I agree with a lot of what you said except for the things about his enemies. and his powerlevel you gave him....id go even higher. IMO Superman should be the strongest Hero in the DCU. the way I see it is other writers have spent years, from thor to mr majestic to sentry and beyond, writing characters and making them tailor made to beat supes. I say fight back and write supes tailor made to beat them. that's just my opinion and some may disagree and some may agree. like I said before:

Strength/ overall power-perpetually in creasing under yellow sun and doubles under a blue sun and quadruples under a white sun

speed- flash is the only thing faster and wonderwoman is the only thing close

durability- only people like darksied and orion and other characters on tht level cn even make him feel a punch.

weaknesses- kryptonite is one of the most iconic things in comics. its right up there with mjolnir and a GL ring. but it should be one of the rarest things in the DCU. magic weakness is pointless get rid of it. like what you said red sun doesn't drain his power but it doesn't give him anymore either.

this is how I would like his yellow/blue/white sun radiation to work. from the moment he arrived on earth the yellow sun began to change and supercharge all of his cells and since the second he first came in contact with a yellow sun it began to make him grow stronger with every moment he remained under its light. so basically when superman sunbathes its equal to thors warrior madness. and the more intense/hot the star he's under. the more power it gives him and the higher the rate at which his body absorbs the radiation from the star so, for example, a yellow sun gives him ten power points then a blue star would give him 20 and a whute star would give him 40. (if you need me to explain further I will)

and as far as enemies I think superman needs new rogues obviously keep lex, parasite, zod, metallo and lobo. but id like to see new ones introduced ala Gorr the god butcher or the court of owls. and they don't necessarily need to be as strong as supes for them to be interesting. they can be smart, psychics, or his own power. thatd be a great man v self story. that superman feels his powers are a curse because he's constantly trying to learn to control them so that he doesn't hurt the people he loves.....what do you think of my ideas?

I would retcon the incredibly idiotic benchpressing planets feat and bring him down to All-star Superman levels and I would retcon out Krypto and Supergirl. Everything else I would keep.

@sog7dc: I think your ideas are pretty awesome.

Darkseid's showed up for, what, 5 issues? You can't expect the OB to do everything it did across 40 years in the span of a few issues.

@comicstooge:

thanks :) now all I have to do is get DC to let me retconn superman....how do I do that?

@comicstooge:

But we already have Zod for that. And plus, this already happened in Injustice: Gods Among Us.

Turning Superman into a dark, twisted anti-hero defeats the point of the character.

Dark superman are one-off, a dark superman for an ongoing sounds fun plus that way he is bound to face stronger opponents by being aggressive.

Think 40k applied on the entire DCU

@sog7dc:

I think There is also Orange Sunlight which gives him 1/2... This makes no sense, of course, but .... Meh!!!

Sunlight should effect absorption rate not powers, he himself, should be able to control his output. He can be stronger under some suns because the excess allows him to safly tap deep into his reserves while getting recharged quicker. But regardless he shouldn't loss powe under a red son. Dumb weakness!

It doesn't sound fun at all. It sounds bland and generic. If you want a dark version of Superman, read The Boys. The only people he'll face are heroes, if he were to become what you suggested.

This story is evidence enough to show that DC would NEVER make Superman a generic, dark, Garth Ennis style Superhero:

@comicstooge:

It doesn't sound fun at all. It sounds bland and generic. If you want a dark version of Superman, read The Boys. The only people he'll face are heroes, if he were to become what you suggested.

Disagree as it gives people a moment to explore the heights of superman, what if he decides to play 'king superman' and enforce his will successfully since no PIS or alternate versions will be there to save their bums.

the boys are light compared to Marshal Law

Since apparently superman follows a Reed Richards logic that he can solve more problems that is normally shown, but his family and friends hold him back. Shown in his discussion with Majestic in their crossover when Maj takes a third option from killing villains by locking them up in stasis.

Its just that DC has an amazing mythos and superman is no stranger to space adventures (LOSH). It's just that everything is too geocentric these days.

Earth is bland and generic.

edit:

Just like the american way, with drones and patriot act

But these "new heights" of Superman have already been explored in Else-world stories and with Superman parody characters. Not to mention the Justice League would come in and kick evil Superman's ass.

Yeah I get it, you want to turn Superman into a stupid 90's anti-hero.

A lot of problems like Cancer, AIDS, World Hunger and Poverty can't be solved in the comicbook world for many reasons. I'm gonna quote TV Tropes:

1. To keep the world similar to the real world. This is particularly common in an Urban Fantasy, superhero, or other series whose setting is superficially similar to the real world. Unlike, say, Star Trek or The Lord of the Rings, one of the key draws of the series is that it could take place right outside the reader's window, which is lost if you make the fictional world toofantastic in comparison. This is particularly common in comic books, where major modifications to the world are only done to fictional locations, and often only to current levels of technology. Here's a video of late Marvel editor-in-chief Mark Gruenwald explaining the reasons for this in some depth.

2. To ensure that there's some level of drama in the story. If the super science or magic can literally do anything, then there's no reason the heroes can't just figure out a creative way to get them out of any jam. Goodbye potential conflict. In the case of Star Trek, there were tons of things the replicators and transporters should have been able to do which would have ruined the plot of half the episodes, necessitating a lot of Holding Back the Phlebotinum to maintain drama. As well, it could very easily be that the technology itself has some limitations, as "It can do anything you can imagine" is quite a bold statement for anyone to make. Other times, the Disposable Superhero Maker is disposable in the first place to avoid flooding the setting with superheroes.

3. To avoid trivializing real-life problems. If Mr. Fantastic actually does cure HIV in the Marvel Universe, there will be plenty of real people still HIV-positive, and plenty of researchers still investing untold millions of dollars and man-hours to fight HIV when they finish the comic. This can make creators wary of tackling such issues, as it can be considered insensitive to have such a heavy burden in real life be casually miracle-cured in fiction. Also, in the interest of representation, physically challenged persons exist in universes where science should theoretically be able to cure their handicap. However, either the disability is so ingrained as a facet of the character's portrayal or curing them could be seen to detract from their mass-market appeal as someone that other physically challenged readers can relate to. This is probably why Professor X always ends up back in the wheelchair after regaining use of his legs. Similarly to point one, this is generally more of a concern if the world is supposed to reflect the real world closely; if it's explicitly an Alternate History or Alternate Universe, or the future, then there's greater room to play with this without potentially causing offense.

4. To keep multiple titles within a Shared Universeconsistent with one-another; comic book universes would approach a new level of Continuity Snarl and Depending on the Writer if writers had to keep track of every published book in their universe for which major diseases/blights had been cured by the heroes and which ones weren't.

5. The idea that technology which could solve serious human problems does exist, but is either repressed from the public, or otherwise not used.

6. It just didn't come to the creator's mind.

7. At least within the Marvel and DC Universes, comic books that take place in a setting significantly different from the reader's own world (i.e. Jonah Hex, Legion of Super-Heroes, Marvel 2099 etc.) tend to have low sales.

But by completely and utterly and utterly disregarding the point and purpose of one of their flagship characters, aren't you spitting in the face of DC's mythos?

I'd respond to that last thing you said if I could understand what you meant.

@comicstooge:

But these "new heights" of Superman have already been explored in Else-world stories and with Superman parody characters. Not to mention the Justice League would come in and kick evil Superman's ass.

Yeah I get it, you want to turn Superman into a stupid 90's anti-hero.

A lot of problems like Cancer, AIDS, World Hunger and Poverty can't be solved in the comicbook world for many reasons. I'm gonna quote TV Tropes:

Else worlds are just one off, alternate universe retcon would be nice so long as it is ongoing. Perhaps the story of ultraman and the crime syndicate and how they manage their world

I never said 'hero' in any of my posts

All come to one problem, earth

There's a reason villains don't get many on-going titles. Most people would really rather root for the hero. Not to mention having an ongonig series about the villain would get boring fast.

And the TV Tropes article already pointed out how "comic books that take place in a setting significantly different from the reader's own world (i.e. Jonah Hex, Legion of Super-Heroes, Marvel 2099 etc.) tend to have low sales."

You'd not only destroy everything Superman as a character and as a concept stands for, but you'd be running the character into the ground.

em yes they do

@comicstooge:

Bomb Queen had a n ongoing and she is a villain protagonist, also there are rare villain ongoing so people would not know what to compare them with. Heroes get tedious, people get anti-heroes which were vastly popular in the 90's/

Not if they have a large fanbase, like a good sci-fi following

An alternate version of superman then, like Ultraman

I've never even heard of Bomb Queen. Yes, Anti-Heroes were popular for a single decade,while characters like Superman, Captain America, The Flash, Batman etc have been popular for multiple decades and still continue to be. Those Anti-Heroes are long forgotten.

Give me one example of an urban fantasy superhero series that's been as successful as the likes of Superman and Batman.

Fair enough. It wouldn't be Superman and you could have your incestuous, murderous, rampaging, blood thirsty Anti-Christ version of Superman do all the killing and conquering he wants.

@comicstooge:

• Bomb Queen. Punisher and wolverine still stay during these times, also it was the nineties that kicked batman up the dc letter
• Vertigo
• Ultraman, or superman raised by Nazis.

Punisher and Wolverine came out in the 70's and 80's. And no, the late 80's kicked Batman up the DC letter with The Dark Knight Returns, Year One and the Batman movie.

Vertigo doesn't exist anymore, it's been merged with DC.

What about Ultraman and Overman?

@comicstooge:

• Nineties is where they boom
• And stories are watered down to fit mainstream
• Should have ongoing, one with nazi hero and another with supervillain mafia

They're still a lot more heroic then the 90's anti-heroes and have more then earned their place in Marvel comics.

Just because they're not filled with massive amounts of gore, profanity and nudity doesn't mean they can't be good. Swamp Thing and JLD has been pretty good so far.

Nazi hero? No decent human being would ever use those words together, that's disgusting. And both those books would fail miserably.

@comicstooge:

• I'd like to see villains and political incorrectness
• Lucifer is a mook and the Endless will be nerfed in cosmic hierarchyNot really In japan they have two of those which became cult classics, JJBA and Kinnikuman

I'm sure there any plenty of inde comics you can read that have a lot of that, I don't see how all this has to be imposed on one of the most heroic characters in comicdom.

Yeah, what they did to Lucifer pissed me off. Still, the reboot screwed up Alan Scott, erased Obsidian (my favourite JSA'er) and they cancled their best book (Demon Knights). Vertigo wasn't the only thing effected.

Who became classics?

@comicstooge:

• Alternate version which is ongoing
• Obsidion is also one of the most powerful gay heroes, they must hate gays

This one

Nazi who fought for the safety of the human race against ancient vampires and legacy remembered as his design inspired heroes. He died bravely fighting the allied forces.

Western comics are just too damn sensitive, which is why I like vertigo since they challenge taboo

@nerx said:

@comicstooge:

• Alternate version which is ongoing
• Obsidion is also one of the most powerful gay heroes, they must hate gays

This one

Nazi who fought for the safety of the human race against ancient vampires and legacy remembered as his design inspired heroes. He died bravely fighting the allied forces.

Western comics are just too damn sensitive, which is why I like vertigo since they challenge taboo

So you're not retconning Superman at all.

I don't think they "hate gays" at all, they just overlooked a great character in order to make a gimmicky, pointless change to a character with 70 years of rich history. I never thought of Obsidian as "that gay powerful superhero", I thought of him as an interesting hero with cool powers who just happened to be gay.

Of course, it's Japan. That place is pretty much known for being screwed up with it's entertainment. That crap wouldn't fly in American comics.

@comicstooge:

Alternate versions of him only , focusing on overman and ultraman along with another superman

America can do better, make Nazi league. Pretty tame, since history is fair game. America needs to cut away with its censors, they do have those things.