Obviously it was critically acclaimed and did Batman good, but what did it actually do for Superman? Did it harm Superman that much? Or did it just do nothing? Was the effect exaggerated? Superman had two very successful movies, one in 1978 and the other in 1980.

Superman III was less than stellar, IMO that did not do justice to Superman. Had that film been successful as the first two, I do not feel there would have been the COIE event (the movies were IMO, a deciding factor, no matter how much DC might not admit it).

I don't even think Batman beat Superman in DKR, he basically got his suit destroyed and landed a few good hits; that was it, without Oliver he would have lost. I just don't think the dialogue really reflected that, at all:

Oliver was not necessary in Batman's plan at all. There's hundreds of other ways Batman could've given Superman the Kryptonite. How TDKR affected Superman is a completely different topic, though.

It did nothing to Superman besides bunch the panties of a couple Superman fans

I dont know how many times i have to say this the only reason Ollie fired the arrow is becuase he asked Bruce if he could help i dought Batman couldnt have done it some other way if Ollie wasnt their and two you dont have to beat the crap out of some one to win a fight one of the best examples of this is in Batman and Superman when Darkseid has kidnapped Supergirl. If Batman had just rolled up on Darkseid he would have got his buttkicked instead Batman bluffs that he will distory the planet if Darkseid dosnt release Supergirl and it works so Batman "won" and he didnt even have to throw a single punch.

I do think it had a bad affect on him, the same way death & return of superman had a bad effect on death in all of comics.

But it also effected batman, it made batman 1 dimensional for a few years, and superman into a joke ( in some people's eyes ) while others knew that was not how superman would act. It also started the whole "batman can easily beat superman cause he's batman" thing.

It gave a lot of ignorant readers a skewed and negative perception of Superman.

It started the bat-god sort of trend in some Batman fans (not myself of course).

Didn't do shit, Supes could've crushed Bats at any point in that fight prior to the kryptonite exposure... Hell Supes could burn Bats alive with his heat vision from a far distance to render kryptonite useless if he really wanted to.

This just goes further to show that Supes is too much of a boy scout to pull the trigger and Bats' jealousy of Supes is coming out into the open... "Know that I'm the only one to defeat you", gotta know that something like that had to have been festering in Bats' mind for years, not really a spur of the moment thing.

I gave fanboys a few stupid scans to troll with, thats bout it.

@clarkkent12: Bruce wasn't jealous of superman but i agree with everything else.

The fact that there are still threads being made about an out on continuity BATMAN story 26 years after it came out must mean it has done quite a lot.

@jayc1324: Those feelings don't just come out of nowhere, even if he isn't jealous of how easy things come to Supes, there has to be some sort of resentment there... No one just says stuff like that without there being something deeper to it.

@clarkkent12: Yeah I think the resentment came from superman basically threatening batman and getting in his way, as well as batman having an ego and superman being at the top. So he probably wanted to take him down to prove to him that he is better.

@jayc1324: "as well as batman having an ego and superman being at the top. So he probably wanted to take him down to prove to him that he is better" - Sounds like jealousy to me.

Supes threatening to stop Bats just confirmed the feeling deep inside of him, he knows Supes could've crushed him at any moment throughout their lives, so having that moment where Supes was vulnerable to death and that at the hands of his own, was the moment Bats could cherish as it was a moment that he could remind himself of, that he could've beaten Supes if he wanted to.

Hence the quote "In all the years to come, in your most private moments... I want you to remember the one man who beat you", sounds more like he's talking to himself, trying to get himself to believe it.

Think about it, Supes comes into his world, takes over the hero scene, beats villains he couldn't fathom stopping by himself and could crush all of the villains in his entire rogue gallery within the hour. He had spent his life in the shadows, instilling fear in his opponents, while Supes stepped into the light and was a symbol for hope, all the while maintaining a healthy lifestyle outside of his superhero life, and did so easily... Supes is everything Bats could never be.

This isn't just a new development in their relationship after Supes stood with the government, this goes way back, it's much deeper than that.

@clarkkent12: He wasn't jealous of superman. He doesn't sit at home all day wishing he could be a symbol of hope or anything like that. I think batman is quite content with scaring the hell out of thugs on the street. That moment was special because it took prep and he was able to take down a powerhouse like superman. Anyone would cherish that moment. Doesnt mean he was jealous.

@jayc1324: So you associate jealousy with obsession? You don't have to be obsessed with someone to be jealous of them, what Bats said to Supes in that moment was premeditated, it's not something one says in the spur of the moment.

Bats is definitely jealous, he's jealous Supes is #1 and he shows it by trying to "beat" him... He could've said something like "you can't stop me even if you wanted to" or something along those lines, but instead he chose to make it personal, meaning there had to be a deeper meaning to it.

@clarkkent12: he said that and went out of his way to prep and beat him because he got in his way. Batman didnt give a crap about superman until he threatened him. Not because he was jealous. If someone threatens you you are going to take them out which batman did. If superman wouldn't have done anything batman wouldn't have even thought about him. He made it personal because they are friends, and he wanted superman to know that he is better than him. He never suggests he is jealous of him. Batman definitely does not want to be running missions for the government like superman was in that comic. Like I said he is content doing his work in Gotham.

@clarkkent12: Um, did you read the story?

He said that to really get to Superman and for him to stay out of his way.

@comicdude23: I did, and you can glean his jealousy from the context.

If it did then it doesnt matter now,because there is no changing it. Superman fans need to accept that it was a plethora of factors not just bat fanatics that caused superman to lose his top spot to batman.

That comic created a false idea of Superman that stuck with him for ages in the minds of the masses while having no bearing in the actual comic books themselves.

Basically, it created this entirely Superman who really was just a total boyscout, and even a being without any intelligence or free thinking at all. You see, that General Audience criticism of Superman that has persisted so long, really only exists in that and the original two Donner movies (and hardly in the movies as well). Superman has actually sided against the US and UN IN THE COMICS. And its not something that is so uncommon that people freak out when it happens (people who actually read comics I mean, the GA flipped slightly over Supes destroying a FREAKING DRONE in MoS). Superman has always been a character with his own moral barometer, who follows that at all times, not the laws of the government. We see it all throughout the Golden Age, where Supes would just throw an abusive husband out of a window. In the Silver Age, if you've ever heard of sites like Superdickery. you know the myth of him just being a boyscout are just that: myths. And I dont think I need to explain the additional grit in modern era Superman, particularly in the New 52. You see the US and Supes relationship in shocking detail in Kingdom Come when he is preparing to collapse the roof right down on them.

So, essentially, Frank Miller hated a non-existent version of the character, and then actually created said version of the character, and then successfully instilled that version of the character into the minds of the masses. The only non-Miller portrayal that is similar is the animated series Superman, and for an animated show its not surprising that characters had to be simplified into very basic versions of themselves (not to mention that show was heavy on Batwank).

People take to much out of context the history because at that moment Superman and the JLA had a great relation with the US and they had rules that prevented them to take actions in specific countries, and that is why Batman quit the JLA and created the Outsiders, a team that wound t respond to no government. Another reference of this was in "A death in the family" in that comic, Superman stopped Batman because wanted to attack the joker and the joker has political immunity and If Batman attacked him it would have bring problems to the US.

In DKR it shows what would have happen if that situation continued for 10 years more.

A Death in the Family is a great example, because in that, its pretty clear Supes Batman for his own sake more than anything. Taking that as evidence of political affiliations or evidence that Supes serves he government really misses the deeper point.

Ok you have read another book I will cite what Superman says: "You can't put your thirst for vengeance above your country's best interests" Does it sound to you that he cares about Batman? or that he cares more about how this would affect his country?

also read in what I edited in my first comment

I would like to remark that he come to Batman because the state department asked him to.

@black_arrow: Reading the whole thing in context, it looks like he cares about Batman an awful lot.

Well then you either don't want to accept the truth or you have read another book. Because Superman never says something like "You wont achieve anything taking vengeance to the Joker because that is what he wants you to do to killing to become as bad as he is"

Also In Batman and the outsiders number one Batman quits the JL because Superman said to Batman that they wound t help him in Markovia because the state department didn't want them to do it. So Batman creates the Outsiders a team that wound t care about the interest of the government.

@black_arrow: The first thing Superman lets Batman do is punch him in the face. The argument can be made that of course that wasnt going to hurt Supes, but it still takes a ton of humility and compassion to allow that.

This is a particularly interesting point because in the New 52 Batman is the one wanting to hold back for political reasons and admonishes Supes and Wondy for getting involved in the other country. No real point here, just interesting because I havent thought of it before.

Batman almost broke his hand, I think that he was humiliated by that, so no I don't see how Superman is caring about Batman. In DKR you can see that Superman doesnt want to kill Batman or humiliate him but he wants to stop him that is what Superman does here he stops Batman from taking revenge on the Joker.

This is an image of the JL in that time

This is as American as you can get.

I am not saying that Superman post crisis was like that or that in the new 52 he is like that. I am just saying that in the time that DKR was written DC had biased for the US.

I don't know what Frank Miller was thinking when he wrote the Dark Knight Returns but maybe he was criticizing Dc in his bias to the government, maybe he wanted to show them that the people wanted something else and his point was proved with DKR because all praise and sells of that book, that in his time showed that super heroes didn't have to favor their country to be good.

@black_arrow: Man, I cannot believe Batman let his PR team put him in that image.

Anyway, i dont see an issue with having a bias for your country, but the DKR Supes put his country before his own morals, and thats where it loses me. For all the s*** MoS gets, it did a really good job showing this. Supes: Im American as it gets... Im on your side... I have to be free to do it my own way. *boom destroys million dollar drone*

What not helping people in another country (Markovia) because his country asks him to not do it isn't against Superman morals?

I agree that was and awesome thing about Mos.

I am only saying that maybe Frank Miller showed what Dc wanted Superman to be and the people hated it and It is possible that because of that Dc decided to change Superman to the version you love of him.

Well, to be fair, as i pointed out, Golden Age and Silver Age Superman were never like that either. The argument would I guess be made for Byrne era Superman, but I like the Man of Steel/John Byrne version the least anyway.

I don't like Byrne version either. But I think that during the 80s Superman and early 90s was showed that way and I love that Dc realized his error and he repaired it giving us the Superman we love.

@clarkkent12: No it didn't. Batman was never 'jealous' of Superman, he just never agreed with his methods and wanted him out of his way.

Pretty much this. Superman is great in my opinion. But, he is a certain type of character that you even like or dislike. This didn't hurt his character. All it did was made two fan bases annoying as hell.

It did nothing really, as the story arc is unknown outside of the Batman and comic buying community. I think it did a lot to launch Batman to super stardom but didn't touch superman's popularity.

@comicdude23: If that were the case, Bats wouldn't have said something like ""In all the years to come, in your most private moments... I want you to remember the one man who beat you"... I don't know about you, but I wouldn't say something like that unless I was trying to make someone think I'm better than they are, and the only reason I would make such an insecure statement like that is out of jealousy.

You can interpret it any which way you'd like, but saying something like that is obviously out of some deeper meaning, it's too premeditated.

Nothing really. It was an out of continuity Superman that had nothing to do with the original. I don't get why some Superman fanboys can't grasp that fact. The regular Supes from the regular universe was the exact same as it was before the story.

Um, no.

It's one of THE most famous graphic novels ever, there is masses of evidence to support this. Superman IV didn't help it either.

Yes he would, he was going to operate for years more, he needed Superman out of his way or atleast tried to. Considering that Superman nearly killed him, it was justified. Batman said similar crap to the Mutant Leader where he babbled on about being in a mudhole.

I'm not sure if it was jealousy.

I think Batman wanted to give Clark a really good lesson in humility so that after he 'really' dies Superman will be less likely to go off the rails. That's how i've always looked at it.

@themultiverse: To each their own, IMO giving one a lesson in humility is one thing and feeding your own ego with a line like the one employed by Bats was another.

Of course it is open to interpretation, I'll agree to disagree.

@comicdude23: He even said "I didn't have to go easy on you", a line from a deluded individual, he's trying to convince himself he would've won the fight. Subconsciously he knows that Supes could've fried him with his heat vision at any point in that fight, rendering the kryptonite angle useless, yet chose not to. Taking advantage of a moment where Supes was vulnerable doesn't sound like justification for a line like that, it sounded more like he was trying to convince himself he was better than Supes and that he could've finished him if he wanted to.

@comicdude23:

I think you mis-understood me. I was saying that personally I don't think TDKR did anything to lower Superman's popularity. Perhaps Superman was at the time selling fewer comics than normal, but I am thinking of Superman's popularity in the world beyond comic book sales. Totally agree its one of the most famous graphic novels ever and was important in helping make Batman the very popular character he is today. Back in the 80s I would argue that Superman was more popular (due to the films) and I should know, because unlike many on here I was actually around and buying comics in the 80s!!

A Superman cartoon was heavy on Batwank? thats news to me.