I have not watched many of his shows, and I haven't read that many of Superman's comics. I'm fairly certain Lex has never killed Superman. But has he ever had a battle with Superman that if it wasn't for some other super heroes intervention, Lex would have won. Or maybe a time where he won the battle against Superman but just didn't win the war?

I haven't thought about it much, but I actually did think about picking that one up. Are there any other times Lex has?

BECAUSE I LOVE RED SON!!! That is how I envision Lex Luthor and the way he beat him was brilliant

He was nowhere near as brilliant or as cocky as Red Son though.

All-star Lex for the win.

Maybe once or twice. Never anywhere near as badly as Joker did, but he's come close.

@amazingwebhead: when did the Joker Superman battle go down?

@djprince831 said:

Right here

Red Son Luthor was so amazing

@papinacho: in All-Star, Lex has a change of character moment too. Superman's journey is over when he can inspire the worst of us--Lex Luthor--to realize his potential and use his gift to better the world.

@amazingwebhead: f*cking Timm, man.

@papinacho: remember that Lex was a criminal until he realized that, to beat Superman, he had to fight Superman on Superman's terms. Lex's America was able to rival the United Soviet Superman Republic when he started his reforms. Once Superman realized that his intervention was doing more harm than good, he turned to the mind of Luthor so that mankind could shape its own destiny.

Superman inspired Luthor in an indirect manner and inspired others directly in USSR, but this is opposite Superman. Regular Superman would've inspired Lex akin to All-Star (a more direct manner) and people through his examples.

Well, Joker is just that much of a total boss

My dream is to one day meet him.... and then kick him in the ****

Yes - he beats Superman with a rock :)

- TAS

Dude, if it had been anyone, ANYONE but the Joker who beat him, I'd agree with you. But it was Joker.

Im talking about scenes like this

None cannon cinematic, but he does kill Superman in it:

Ah. Actually, I think the episode did Batman and Superman's first meeting very well. Batman judo-flips Superman to show he's not in the mood to chat, Superman slams into Batman to remind him who the guy who can lift ocean liners is, then they quickly deduce each others secret identities.

You seem to gloss over this... AND WHY IT'S NOT F**KING POSSIBLE!!!! Also Superman was written OOC just to make Batman look Badass in this.

Every time he commits a crime and gets away with it he's beating Superman.

Well, I don't think Superman weighs anymore than an average human. Plus A) he didn't see it coming and B) he probably didn't want to fight Batman...yet. But I agree, if you want to do a Batman/Superman fight right, then Bats needs to break out some seriously heavy artillery to do any damage. TDKR armor, red sun gauntlets, kryptonite batarangs, and the like. I'm hoping they remember that for the movie.

Here's the problems I had with it

Flip

1. Superman even at his weakest is faster than a speeding bullet, Batman had his full attention. Him being caught of guard is ridiculous
2. Superman is stronger and if he doesn't wanna be moved he's not gonna be moved. Which explains how he can stop trains or cars. SUperman also has a certain degree of density control.
3. He can fly.... so why did he land on that table?

Out of Character Superman

Superman in this comes of as a hypocrite. He tells Bruce that there will be no vigilantism in his town.... WHEN HE'S CLEARLY A F**KING VIGILANTE HIMSELF!!! He is just as hot headed as JL War Superman but he's a punk in this by how much he jobbed. He smiles at people shooting guns at him who are robbing banks but he get's judo flipped and the dude TACKLES A HUMAN INTO A WALL!!! DAFUQ SUPERMAN!!! A flip of the pinky would have sufficed, but no that would make Batman look bad and Bruce Timm will not allow that. Superman seemed more confrontational cus he had to be the one to start the fight so Batman could put him in his place.

Bruce Does Not Share Important Information

He knows what the Joker has (or at least has a hunch) and he's going there to stop him from doing anything to Superman. One can argue that the flaw in this was that Bruce is so arrogant that he doesn't think of warning the super powered hero that someone is trying to kill him, but that is outweighed by how easily and nonchalantly he pawns Superman and how at the end Superman thanks him and says he couldn't do it without him to which Bruce replies "I know". So in the end Bruce is right. A f**king letter would have sufficed but Superman had to tackle out a warning out of him. He'll tell the Gordon stuff but tell the super powered hero that his life is in danger? F**k that!! I'll handle this solo.

@papinacho: you're wrong, Lex is supposed to represent the best humanity has to offer, but he is misguided. Superman's job is to inspire us to do better; his ultimate challenge is to inspire Lex to be better. Red Son's Lex, regardless of his motivation, still lived up to his potential and ushered humanity into a golden age and ended human struggle due to his interaction with Superman.

That's why I don't like when people compare Bruce to Lex, they're not even in the same league.

More accurately, Lex is both the best of humanity (our genius, hunger for knowledge and drive for success no matter what's in our way) and the worst (bigoted, cruel, never being satisfied with our successes and blaming others for the choices and sins we make). I don't think he's misguided as he's shown to be a heartless monster even before Superman came and after Superman disappeared/died (52 and Death and Return of Superman, respectably).

Okay, ya got me there. But then I don't know if Superman would've listened to a letter from Bats, and usually Superman brings up that Batman breaks a lot more laws than him. Also, you mentioned Batman's arrogance, so I think it was that, combined with Batman's obsession with taking down Joker himself.

@night4345: Quite.I meant Lex is misguided in the sense that he believes that Superman is the cause of mankind's demise. You're right though, Lex is a SOB of the highest order.

@amazingwebhead: Bruce Timm just liked to Batman wank. Don't fight it; it is the simplest answer to many Timm related Batman questions.

Movieverse, yeah - sure, Luthor's beat Superman's a$$

- TAS

@superguy1591: Fair enough.

@saint_wildcard: Can you tell me why it was so brilliant and how Red Son Lex won?

Basically he spent decades trying to take him down. In the final battle Braniac warned Superman that if he spent 6 minutes with Lex that he would have made Superman commit suicide. After that Superman went to the White House and stomped the Amazons, a rookie GL corps and all his villains but what stopped him was words Lex wrote on a letter. In the very end we see that Lex casually states that he planned everything decades ago and every move that was made.

So what did Lex write on the letter or was it just him telling Supes he planned it all?

Basically he's saying that Superman is like Braniac who wants total control of everything and he realizes he's what he hates

Yes, he has beaten Superman before. But in all times was because Superman does very little with that superbrain of his.

At the end of Red Son he was beaten, in All-Star Superman he didn't beat him, in fact he helped Superman reach his full potential, he did kill him the DC Universe Online story, he also killed himself and Supes at the end in Last Son of Earth story.

These are the most known stories. But in almost if not all the times he did beat him or killed him, it was because Superman got to cocky and let himself fall into Lex traps. If Superman was to use and I mean really use the full potential of that brain of his, he could kill or simply beat Lex at every turn without breaking a sweat.

@djprince831: I would count the Dark Knight strikes again. He doesn't kill him bit if not for Bruce and a few others superman would've stayed completely under lex and brainiacs control.most likely indefinitely.