Now, Shazam on the other hand, is probably the one that is more underestimated.

@dorukesin: @johnni_kun: For real? From my experience on the battle forums Billy and BA are taken a lot more seriously than Superman. Imo its because of Superman's (unnecessary) weaknesses and vulnerabilities.

like i said they are really underestimate him,they think he's nerfed but i know he's not

in my vision,he can beat the sh*t out of some fanboys and their supreme characters like that

@dorukesin: Yea that's why two Magical beings just had their way with him. Skelator played him like a puppet on a STRING, while He-Man buried his sword in Supes chest while killing him with the same giant magical sword. Superman is hit with near nuclear blasts while shrugging it off on the regular, but was still taken down by a simple sword. Why? Because HE CAN be killed with Magic

@deaditegonzo: He's talking about Doomsday as a generic Hulk. Just ignore him.

@verotikryptonite: When has Hulk ever defeated Superman? I can think of 3 comic book appearances for those two and all 3 went in Supermans favour, because Hulk is a slow brute, who is only strong in the Marvel Universe.

@verotikryptonite: When has Hulk ever defeated Superman? I can think of 3 comic book appearances for those two and all 3 went in Supermans favour, because Hulk is a slow brute, who is only strong in the Marvel Universe.

Also, youre getting angry like Supes was a real person, calm down, he's only a fictional character, the most famous fictional character of all time, but a fictional character.

@verotikryptonite: wait wait are you comparing Superman with Hulk ?

send me a pm and make a CaV.I can beat your Hulk with Smallville Superman

I would never compare an original hero to Super Retcon Man. How about the weakest Hulk from the 80's against the original Superman, Who was weaker than Spiderman, Slower than Quicksilver, And far from invulnerable. You know before Marvel created better comics and DC's only defense was to make Superman insanely overpowered.

we are talking about powers and capabilities on these topic bro.i don't make a popularity threat

\

In all fairness he was right up to the sun supercharging while half his teamates were killed on earth lol....

Superman fans are the ones sticking to the pre written 1950's script that Superman is the end all be all of Superheroes. I've even heard the idiotic logic that states, Superman is the first, therefore he's the gee golly gosh bestest ever. By that logic an Atari is superior to PS4. Plenty of characters would make short work of the most overrated hero in the history of funny books. And any time anyone makes that statement they are bombarded by fanboys regurgitating the played out DC fanboy script . Iv'e been reading comics since the 70's and have seen how useful Clark Kent is without his powers while fighting someone on equal footing, he's a joke. That's why people who don't drink the kool-aid say a real warrior born like Thor has what it takes to destroy someone who is a non issue without his powers. I mean let's be honest Clark Kent is a simple Kansas hick that is as much a joke as matter eater lad

@dorukesin: Yea that's why two Magical beings just had their way with him. Skelator played him like a puppet on a STRING, while He-Man buried his sword in Supes chest while killing him with the same giant magical sword. Superman is hit with near nuclear blasts while shrugging it off on the regular, but was still taken down by a simple sword. Why? Because HE CAN be killed with Magic

@deaditegonzo: I'm having a great time in this thread and am far from raging. I think it's yummy how hypercritical that statement is when Superman's tiny fan base love to point out the outcome of the Thor, Supes battle in JLA vs Avengers. And here I was ready to talk about Supes running away from a drunk Lobo in fear for his hillbilly life. That was in in the jumbled cluster f**k of what DCU fans call continuity. Or when he was beat to death by a generic Hulk devoid of Superspeed,bwahahahahahahah

I said a generic Hulk devoid of superspeed silly. (DOOMSDAY)

You know the rip off that kicked his A$$ and killed him with brute force alone. And that DD could only jump

But....but those three comics are not in continuity

I would never compare an original hero to Super Retcon Man. How about the weakest Hulk from the 80's against the original Superman, Who was weaker than Spiderman, Slower than Quicksilver, And far from invulnerable. You know before Marvel created better comics and DC's only defense was to make Superman insanely overpowered.

You invited me to debate something from Smallville, just stating why that would never happen( BRO)

@verotikryptonite: See - this right here is my problem and gets me entering these types of discussions. You've jumped into a thread that has been placed specifically into the Superman forum for the purpose of being antagonistic. OK - you think the character is overpowered or overrated or whatever. That's fine - but thus far you've been intentionally argumentative (with poorly formed arguments) for no apparent reason. If you don't like the character - don't go into threads about him. It's that simple. That's how forums like this can operate peacefully - because people choose to be mature and not intentionally start arguments and avoid threads about topics and characters that they don't like. It's not a hard thing to do.

Now - I admit I've made a claim there regarding the quality of your arguments, which I guess to be fair I should back up.

Superman IS the first and is (one of) DC's primary flagship characters - ergo when the opportunity comes up, they're going to ensure he's seen to be top dog. That may mean they power him up, include some ridiculous PIS or whatever, but that's what will happen. Don't like it? Fine - don't buy their comics (based on your responses I assume you're not really into DC). Your analogy is flawed too, as the Atari is a set piece of hardware without change to keep up with modern technology. Superman as a character has undergone multiple evolutionary stages, a more suitable comparison for the character is the PSOne to the PS4, which illustrates how the character has been changed, molded and revised based on current trends and modern story telling. This however doesn't help you prove a point, so of course you ignore these facets (for this post at least). Maybe a better analogy is like the NES or Master System? That seems to be a bit more along the lines of the point you wanted to make, while adhering to a more relative process. Since you're arguing against Superman, I'd suggest picking the Master System as Sega eventually had to concede in making consoles - whereas Nintendo are still very popular. Although since they aren't trying to make the best quality graphics or whatever when compared to say a PS4 - maybe that suits your purposes as well... and then compare the Nintendo/Sega Superman evolution to, whichever Marvel character you consider to be a PS4. As for your final assertion - you obviously skipped later comics that had de-powered, or even super-powered Clark Kent, learning combat skills from Batman, WW and Mongul, have him saving people while de-powered still, suiting up in armor and actually saving Batman, or using said combat skills against other Kryptonians to ensure a quick and effective fight to name a couple of examples.

Pointed out - non-canon. But that aside - it's a specific story being told. Similarly he gets stabbed in the heart by a knife in Action Comics #26 and keeps going on as if nothing has happened. Also, (and this is speculation) I'm guessing he's not actually "dead". As for Skeletor - he had control over the entire league - so what? I'm missing the point this is trying to prove. We already know he is vulnerable to magic and mind control/TP abilities. This isn't proving anything to the point you seemed to be wanting to make - that he could be killed with magic - which as correctly stated hasn't occurred "in-canon". Also, since the creative team aren't Superman related, and they aren't telling a "Superman" specific story - actual historical and continuity events and abilities wouldn't be used correctly - for any of the characters.

Superman has a pretty large fanbase, usually considered one of the most popular characters out there. His comic sales indicate he's relatively popular, as does constant merchandise sales, and his most recent film would indicate a certain degree of popularity as well. The Supe's VS Thor battle from JLA vs Avengers is was actually considered canon for a time, so that argument was perfectly valid, at least to a certain extent. and Doomsday HAS superspeed - he tagged Flash without too much trouble, who is officially faster than any character, in DC or Marvel universes. As for the Lobo reference - really? Like, that is a ridiculous argument to try and make. Plus Lobo as a character IS intentionally made as strong as Superman - plus he's immortal. Plus at the time Superman wasn't himself - he was under the influence of the Eradicator and had a different goal in mind - and it's revealed he ends up faking his "death" to Lobo to get rid of him. And Lobo finds a stash of Kryptonite... I can't imagine what sort of argument you wanted to form by bringing up that fight? Which is well outside of continuity now anyway. (Yes, DC reboots all the time, blah, blah, blah - I'll say it so you don't have to).

@deaditegonzo had already advised that he HAD super speed - read the post directly above yours. Next time check facts. The fact DD is only able to jump (miles at a time) is irrelevant. Hulk is the same last time I checked. And Superman used his flight to an advantage if you read the fight. DD was simply too strong.

Poor argument since it was an obvious miss-communication that you were made an error in, which you just flat out refuse to acknowledge. This is where your credibility is pretty much completely gone and your intent to be an antagonist is clear, since this is just a really mocking and immature post.

He actually said to start a Challenge a Viner thread, stating he could beat "your Hulk" (by which I assume he means any version of Hulk) with Superman from Smallville (no where the most powerful "version" of Superman, and I assume from the TV series), aiming to show that you don't know enough - which I have no idea about personally. "Super Retcon Man" is interesting since Marvel have been retconning their heroes since the 60's. I mean How many times has Captain America "died"? How many stories have been relegated to non 616 universes? House of M? Civil War? Spider-Man being chosen by a totem god and creating his own cocoon? Hulk himself has been shown to go through so many stages and power levels... Sorry, but THAT is the height of hypocritical statements in this thread. And what do you mean by "original hero"? As in the Hulk was an original character? Or do you mean his "original" version - because that was never specified as a requirement. Also your counter-proposition is just as intentionally one-sided, choosing two characters separated by almost 50 years of comic evolution. Also, to state the golden age Superman is "weaker than Spider-Man" requires some sort of evidence. Same as the claims about his speed. Show at least a reason for these claims. As a point of reference, here is a great list of strength and speed feats for GA Supe's specifically. http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=298562. Not saying these are better than "80's Hulk" - on that I have no idea. It's also interesting you want to specify a version of Superman (basically his weakest) but don't specify a version of the comparative claims (Spider-Man from the 60's? or Spider-Man from today?) Also isn't the "weakest Hulk" the Grey Hulk? 70 tons I believe was his maximum lifting capacity. Or are you referring to the TV show Hulk from then? At least however here you've acknowledged that the characters have changed and evolved over time.

Your last statement is just as offensive to my sense of fairness and logic in that it completely disregards the reality of what was happening in comics at the time, how and why Marvel was even able to create any characters in the 60's, and ignores Marvel's intentional 'one-up-manship' over the DC characters and heroes, such as Superman himself. Sentry? Hyperion? There's two examples of Marvel attempting to one-up Superman himself - not counting the other list of rip-off characters. Also unlike DC, Marvel was introducing characters that hadn't been around for the last 20 years. DC on the other hand were just writing new stories and continuing the tradition that they began. The Silver Age of comics was bad for LOTS of characters - hell that's when Hulk lost to Batman for goodness sake.... No argument, about anything, should ever be based on the Silver Age, and should never try and level a finger for one company copying another - since both are equally guilty.

And again just being intentionally antagonistic (using the "Bro" at then end).

MY point is this - if you see a thread about a character you don't like - maybe don't go into it, especially if that characters "fanboys" annoy you, as you're asking for an argument and are basically setting it up to start a flame war. If you DO choose to engage said fanboys in a debate or argument - get your facts correct first, don't just be intentionally antagonistic, try not to be a hypocrite (especially if that's one of YOUR own complaints) by using double-standards in your arguments, and don't pick and choose things and ignore times where it's already been pointed out that there was a miscommunication or mistake (especially if it's yours), and don't overtly mock the people you're debating.

Superman fans are the ones sticking to the pre written 1950's script that Superman is the end all be all of Superheroes. I've even heard the idiotic logic that states, Superman is the first, therefore he's the gee golly gosh bestest ever. By that logic an Atari is superior to PS4. Plenty of characters would make short work of the most overrated hero in the history of funny books. And any time anyone makes that statement they are bombarded by fanboys regurgitating the played out DC fanboy script . Iv'e been reading comics since the 70's and have seen how useful Clark Kent is without his powers while fighting someone on equal footing, he's a joke. That's why people who don't drink the kool-aid say a real warrior born like Thor has what it takes to destroy someone who is a non issue without his powers. I mean let's be honest Clark Kent is a simple Kansas hick that is as much a joke as matter eater lad

Superman fans are the ones sticking to the pre written 1950's script that Superman is the end all be all of Superheroes. I've even heard the idiotic logic that states, Superman is the first, therefore he's the gee golly gosh bestest ever. By that logic an Atari is superior to PS4. Plenty of characters would make short work of the most overrated hero in the history of funny books. And any time anyone makes that statement they are bombarded by fanboys regurgitating the played out DC fanboy script . Iv'e been reading comics since the 70's and have seen how useful Clark Kent is without his powers while fighting someone on equal footing, he's a joke. That's why people who don't drink the kool-aid say a real warrior born like Thor has what it takes to destroy someone who is a non issue without his powers. I mean let's be honest Clark Kent is a simple Kansas hick that is as much a joke as matter eater lad

But you said you couldn't read it.

@wishiwassuperman: Oh yea, you're a highly skilled Jedi warrior when it comes to comic book philosophy, I was in awe of your ability to put a series of letters together to form entire words, which to my amazement grew into multiple sentences. And I know with utter absolution that you were indeed trying to make a point.

Those damn mind tricks.

You've proven you're capable of sarcasm - good for you - it wasn't painfully obvious earlier. I'm not interested in a flame war. If you want to actually discuss something with sound reasoning and intelligence, let me know. Until then however, I honestly don't think you're worth any more of my time. At least the last guy I had a debate with was capable of logical and sound reasoning for his opinions and statements. All you've done in this thread is sprouted nonsense and made claims you can't (or at least won't) back-up, and been shown to be wrong at least a couple of times over. If you want to keep coming off like nothing more than an internet troll, be my guest - but you can do it at someone else's expense.

Oh ok. Doomsday is as fast as the Flash, the Hulk is slow compared to Captain America, so his point doesnt even make sense then.

@verotikryptonite: See - this right here is my problem and gets me entering these types of discussions. You've jumped into a thread that has been placed specifically into the Superman forum for the purpose of being antagonistic. OK - you think the character is overpowered or overrated or whatever. That's fine - but thus far you've been intentionally argumentative (with poorly formed arguments) for no apparent reason. If you don't like the character - don't go into threads about him. It's that simple. That's how forums like this can operate peacefully - because people choose to be mature and not intentionally start arguments and avoid threads about topics and characters that they don't like. It's not a hard thing to do.

Now - I admit I've made a claim there regarding the quality of your arguments, which I guess to be fair I should back up.

Superman IS the first and is (one of) DC's primary flagship characters - ergo when the opportunity comes up, they're going to ensure he's seen to be top dog. That may mean they power him up, include some ridiculous PIS or whatever, but that's what will happen. Don't like it? Fine - don't buy their comics (based on your responses I assume you're not really into DC). Your analogy is flawed too, as the Atari is a set piece of hardware without change to keep up with modern technology. Superman as a character has undergone multiple evolutionary stages, a more suitable comparison for the character is the PSOne to the PS4, which illustrates how the character has been changed, molded and revised based on current trends and modern story telling. This however doesn't help you prove a point, so of course you ignore these facets (for this post at least). Maybe a better analogy is like the NES or Master System? That seems to be a bit more along the lines of the point you wanted to make, while adhering to a more relative process. Since you're arguing against Superman, I'd suggest picking the Master System as Sega eventually had to concede in making consoles - whereas Nintendo are still very popular. Although since they aren't trying to make the best quality graphics or whatever when compared to say a PS4 - maybe that suits your purposes as well... and then compare the Nintendo/Sega Superman evolution to, whichever Marvel character you consider to be a PS4. As for your final assertion - you obviously skipped later comics that had de-powered, or even super-powered Clark Kent, learning combat skills from Batman, WW and Mongul, have him saving people while de-powered still, suiting up in armor and actually saving Batman, or using said combat skills against other Kryptonians to ensure a quick and effective fight to name a couple of examples.

Pointed out - non-canon. But that aside - it's a specific story being told. Similarly he gets stabbed in the heart by a knife in Action Comics #26 and keeps going on as if nothing has happened. Also, (and this is speculation) I'm guessing he's not actually "dead". As for Skeletor - he had control over the entire league - so what? I'm missing the point this is trying to prove. We already know he is vulnerable to magic and mind control/TP abilities. This isn't proving anything to the point you seemed to be wanting to make - that he could be killed with magic - which as correctly stated hasn't occurred "in-canon". Also, since the creative team aren't Superman related, and they aren't telling a "Superman" specific story - actual historical and continuity events and abilities wouldn't be used correctly - for any of the characters.

Superman has a pretty large fanbase, usually considered one of the most popular characters out there. His comic sales indicate he's relatively popular, as does constant merchandise sales, and his most recent film would indicate a certain degree of popularity as well. The Supe's VS Thor battle from JLA vs Avengers is was actually considered canon for a time, so that argument was perfectly valid, at least to a certain extent. and Doomsday HAS superspeed - he tagged Flash without too much trouble, who is officially faster than any character, in DC or Marvel universes. As for the Lobo reference - really? Like, that is a ridiculous argument to try and make. Plus Lobo as a character IS intentionally made as strong as Superman - plus he's immortal. Plus at the time Superman wasn't himself - he was under the influence of the Eradicator and had a different goal in mind - and it's revealed he ends up faking his "death" to Lobo to get rid of him. And Lobo finds a stash of Kryptonite... I can't imagine what sort of argument you wanted to form by bringing up that fight? Which is well outside of continuity now anyway. (Yes, DC reboots all the time, blah, blah, blah - I'll say it so you don't have to).

@deaditegonzo had already advised that he HAD super speed - read the post directly above yours. Next time check facts. The fact DD is only able to jump (miles at a time) is irrelevant. Hulk is the same last time I checked. And Superman used his flight to an advantage if you read the fight. DD was simply too strong.

Poor argument since it was an obvious miss-communication that you were made an error in, which you just flat out refuse to acknowledge. This is where your credibility is pretty much completely gone and your intent to be an antagonist is clear, since this is just a really mocking and immature post.

He actually said to start a Challenge a Viner thread, stating he could beat "your Hulk" (by which I assume he means any version of Hulk) with Superman from Smallville (no where the most powerful "version" of Superman, and I assume from the TV series), aiming to show that you don't know enough - which I have no idea about personally. "Super Retcon Man" is interesting since Marvel have been retconning their heroes since the 60's. I mean How many times has Captain America "died"? How many stories have been relegated to non 616 universes? House of M? Civil War? Spider-Man being chosen by a totem god and creating his own cocoon? Hulk himself has been shown to go through so many stages and power levels... Sorry, but THAT is the height of hypocritical statements in this thread. And what do you mean by "original hero"? As in the Hulk was an original character? Or do you mean his "original" version - because that was never specified as a requirement. Also your counter-proposition is just as intentionally one-sided, choosing two characters separated by almost 50 years of comic evolution. Also, to state the golden age Superman is "weaker than Spider-Man" requires some sort of evidence. Same as the claims about his speed. Show at least a reason for these claims. As a point of reference, here is a great list of strength and speed feats for GA Supe's specifically. http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=298562. Not saying these are better than "80's Hulk" - on that I have no idea. It's also interesting you want to specify a version of Superman (basically his weakest) but don't specify a version of the comparative claims (Spider-Man from the 60's? or Spider-Man from today?) Also isn't the "weakest Hulk" the Grey Hulk? 70 tons I believe was his maximum lifting capacity. Or are you referring to the TV show Hulk from then? At least however here you've acknowledged that the characters have changed and evolved over time.

Your last statement is just as offensive to my sense of fairness and logic in that it completely disregards the reality of what was happening in comics at the time, how and why Marvel was even able to create any characters in the 60's, and ignores Marvel's intentional 'one-up-manship' over the DC characters and heroes, such as Superman himself. Sentry? Hyperion? There's two examples of Marvel attempting to one-up Superman himself - not counting the other list of rip-off characters. Also unlike DC, Marvel was introducing characters that hadn't been around for the last 20 years. DC on the other hand were just writing new stories and continuing the tradition that they began. The Silver Age of comics was bad for LOTS of characters - hell that's when Hulk lost to Batman for goodness sake.... No argument, about anything, should ever be based on the Silver Age, and should never try and level a finger for one company copying another - since both are equally guilty.

And again just being intentionally antagonistic (using the "Bro" at then end).

MY point is this - if you see a thread about a character you don't like - maybe don't go into it, especially if that characters "fanboys" annoy you, as you're asking for an argument and are basically setting it up to start a flame war. If you DO choose to engage said fanboys in a debate or argument - get your facts correct first, don't just be intentionally antagonistic, try not to be a hypocrite (especially if that's one of YOUR own complaints) by using double-standards in your arguments, and don't pick and choose things and ignore times where it's already been pointed out that there was a miscommunication or mistake (especially if it's yours), and don't overtly mock the people you're debating.

You see,this is probably the most well-thought out post in this thread. Especially since it doesn't try to be petty and incredibly biased and such by disrespecting other characters (including Superman),which some people on this thread have done (others have also given some good ones as well). It seems to come from a more objective position,not a biased one. Good post and good points.

However,I personally see nothing wrong with retcons (as long as they are done right,which I think Marvel has done greatly...and DC has fixed up their history pretty nicely was well),however,I don't think that you were knocking them,I just think that you were calling him out on his hypocrisies,inconsistencies,etc.

Anyway,this is a great post.

Thank you - I appreciate that feedback. And yes - I wasn't knocking retcons - I just don't like the double-standard that seems to get applied between Marvel and DC and their respective approaches. I'm all for them in fact and believe they're necessary for the medium to survive. I mean how else can we expect these stories to last so long and keep providing us entertainment with these characters, whether they're 75 years old (like my man Supe's) or even the "younger" characters like Spidey or Hulk. It's vital for the medium to do reboots and retcon IMO - and like you, I like them when they're done well.

Why not? You should make one.

Lame.

Also the entire battle was faked

Faked? I haven't played through the game and story properly (or followed the comics either) - please explain?

As I understood it he was basically a blood lusted Superman having been tricked into killing Lois himself (THIS is why Injustice's premise annoyed me to no ends - come up with a different idea already!!!) - so no more Mr Nice Guy, no holding back and basically he's just completely letting loose - which normally means he'd wipe the floor with Darkseid (who's an actual God) - so to me, wiping out BA like that is perfectly acceptable (also considering yeah - he was just hovering in front of the sun - although he didn't technically sun-dip, so any over-charge would be limited technically).