The comics is one thing. But the media, having a much bigger audience, is something else entirely. While Kent has died in the comics many times no question, he had almost always lived long enough to see Clark become Superman and to me, that's a big deal. However, almost NO version of Jonathan in the media has lived long enough to see his son become the Earth's greatest champion (though, apparently, he was alive during the Superboy series, but that doesn't truly count).

The 1978 Superman film.

Smallville season 5 episode "Reckoning"

2013's Man of Steel

Now, I can understand that these were written to be messages to Clark on his journey towards becoming the man his adoptive father wishes him to be, but to me, it is unnecessary. Superman has already lost his entire planet and with it, his birth parents. Why should he lose EITHER of his adoptive parents, too? Of course, Man of Steel was clever enough to have Jonathan see his 9-year-old son as such a person (symbolically of course) before his impending demise, but still. In media, why not have Jonathan live long enough to see Clark become Superman and why have his death be a pivotal part of his journey? Superman isn't Spider-man. He shouldn't have to lose BOTH of his fathers so consistently.

Sound off on your opinion below.

Yes.

I know it sounds harsh by Jonathan dying brings to the character a forward loss that the audience can resonate with but also depending how it is done and more importantly WHEN it starts a journey of growing for Clark. For example in Donner's Superman Jonathan was the catalyst for Superman to travel the world. Plus Jonathan dying from heart attack shows Clark and the audience that no even Superman can do everything.

Only if there's a tornado

@squalleon: Reeve should have just reversed time and saved his Dad :p

That post would be funny, if it wasn't so inaccurate :P

The Donner version did it best. That movie made it perfectly clear that Superman isn't a god. Jor-El specifically told Clark that humanity had to stand on it's own with him as an example. Having Pa Kent die of an illness drive home the point that he isn't omnipotent and people will die and bad things will happen no matter how powerful Clark is. Superman changes the things he can, and accepts the things he can't.

As much as I liked MoS, their version of Pa Kent's death didn't have that resonance.

P.S. Pa Kent survived in Superman: The Animated Series and in Lois and Clark

Is it too late to fix that :P

@rdclip:

"As much as I liked MoS, their version of Pa Kent's death didn't have that resonance."

That version of his death was meant to send a DIFFERENT message. It was meant to convey the notion that Clark was not yet ready to handle the pressures of the outside world scrutinizing him for being a super-powered alien in the 21st Century. A subject, forgive me for going off topic a bit, that will be touched upon heavily in the sequel and proving Jonathan right about how the world is going to feel about him as a whole.

"P.S. Pa Kent survived in Superman: The Animated Series and in Lois and Clark"

I am aware. I was speaking of LIVE-ACTION media. If I recall correctly, he was alive in most of the animated movies as well. As for Lois and Clark, I haven't really watched that.

@squalleon: ......how?

This, pretty much, is one of the best aspects of Superman as a character. The key aspect of it was also that it happens while he is Superman, rather than before it in order to provide some form of driving force to having him become Superman. It's a reality check rather than a motivator, which is where Man of Steel, in my opinion, got it very wrong regarding Jonathan Kent's somewhat inevitable death. Other reality checks will come about, like how Superman can't change the hearts and minds of people, that there might be holes in his own strict moral code that means certain bad people go free etc.

It's part of what makes Superman such a good character, being tested like this. It might not be set in stone and I agree that it causes Pa Kent to seem like a character built to die, but technically the same could be said of Uncle Ben, Gwen Stacy, the Waynes etc. I guess the difference lies in that Pa Kent's character, much like Gwen the first time round, isn't expected to die. This is mainly because of how well adjusted and all round faultless the character was, but also because the event seems so very real by comparison. It's one thing to be killed by a malicious yet understandable force like a criminal or supervillain, but it's quite another when it's an uncaring, undefinable affliction like a heart attack or cancer.

I guess that's how the tornado worked, in a way, the 'next logical alternative', even though it wasn't really as effective as a tool. Natural disasters just happen, as do illnesses. At the end of the day, it's not really possible to get revenge on a tornado or a heart attack, lest Weather Wizard and some cardiac arrest based villain were teaming up that week. The only place to aim all that guilt and anger would be at yourself, and it hits doubly hard when, after doing so damn well at your job, the one time you fail is when you truly can't prevent it, and it's someone very close to you that's paid the price.

Considering Clark wasn't at his peak in terms of power then (ten years passed between Pa died and Clark became Superman). And turning back time moments gave him unimaginable strain, I don't see how Clark could do it ;)

@squalleon: 12 years passed IIRC. All he'd have to do is yell a little louder, and fly a little faster. He'd be back in time.....in no time.

What is this pun-ville :P

Better than N-52 where both sets of parents are dead.

No.

Clark is someone who started being a hero because he thoguht it was the right thing to do with all the powers he had gotten, Jonathan Kent dying or not should not change that.

Jonathan dying is never the catalyst that makes him "Superman". But it usually shows him, he can't do everything, he is susceptible to loss.

Also alive in Superman vs. The Elite giving some words of wisdom to Clark. I like Jonathan and if his death is done like the Donner film were it shows Superman has limits and he can't prevent death. (ignoring the time reverse trick)

But I also don't think he needs to die in every incarnation just to teach Clark this. He does not need to be uncle Ben, dead or alive he works well in Superman stories.

I don't think he has to die. I wouldn't mind whenever they do a reboot if they kept him alive.

@kryptonian24:

I think mostly it's to compell Clark to accept his destiny and ultimately to show him that no matter how powerful he is, not even he can save people from death.

Before the N52 started and I learned that both his adopted parents died while he was still just a teenager, I thought that DC was doing it to create a Superman that would be more focused, more hard, more independent. I always believed that it was a move so they could create a Superman more willing to operate in the gray areas. But none of that happened. If anything the N52 Superman gained more in terms of power level, but lost intelligence, initiative, and the ability to look at the bigger picture.

Has movies and TV series go, the death of Jonathan Kent always felt like an unnecessary move. It added very little to Clark's sense of direction. Sometimes it almost seemed that the writers were saying that if one or both of his adopted parents didn't died, then he would never have become Superman.

In a way this also brings us to another fundamental question. Why do his biological parents Jor and Lara, also need to die everytime. I've never seen a writer with the "stones" to change that.

To make it so Clark would grow up on Earth but when he discovered the Phantom Zone he also discovered that his parents had managed to save themselves there. Not only them but also quite a number of selected few, that with Jor-El backup plan, managed to survive. And it was within Kal possibility to save all of those people.

The writes could even throw a wrench into the story, making it so that due to all of those years inside the Zone, no kryptonian could survive outside of it indefinitely. They could only stay outside for a determined period of time until they had to return. The writers could even include Kara parents, and make it a challenge for Superman and also a sign of hope. The one that promised him one day, the chance to reunite with his family and people, permanently.

The possibilities are endless. But still writers stick to the same old routine like it's going out of style.

Im on season 4 :( Spoiler.

Jonathan Kent in MoS makes me laugh. What an asshole. Jonathan in Smallville on the other hand was glorious. His death was meaningful and hit hard. No other version will compare.

Spoiler alert Clark becomes Superman.

@squalleon:

Yeah. Ahahahahaha..... Another worst spoiler is that only after 6 more seasons, and on the very last episode does he finally becomes Superman.

When I remember how badly they stretch out the show, it only causes me headaches :P

He, I was never a fan but I had to watch the last episode to see him finally becoming Superman...I was disappointed :P

I can't imagine the disappointment of fans who followed the show for years :P

@redwingx:

Well, he's also the one with more screen time if we compare all Jonathan Kent's.

But still the ator John Schneider, did an outstanding job at his role. His character had just enough presence to not become background noise. And unlike the one from MoS he would never had even sugested that Clark left someone die just to protect his secret.

I honestly didn't liked that they killed him, I'd much prefer the same exit strategy they did with Martha, but I understood why he died. Clark was warned that if he saved Lana's life someone else had to take her place. Clark choice was to become one that if they had used well, should've improved the character quite a bit. But has the seasons went on, Jonathan death became less and less meaningful. And that was a real shame.

@squalleon:

Up until season 4 I loved the show. But after season four, it was downhill, all the way. But still I endured and watched season after season :-P

But no worries. Another series is about to drop another bomb that might actually be worst than Smallville worst seasons.

And I'm speaking of course of Supergirl.

The cast, the origin story, the main actress, the suit... I already feel the pain, and the show hasn't even started.

Just saw the trailer.

As another viner said "it looks like the SNL Black Widow parody" :P

Si

I recently watched him die in the original Superman movie... Man that was dumb. Him going out in a tornado is badass, but the way he got the heart attack was dumb and the build up to that moment was dumb

I recently watched him die in the original Superman movie... Man that was dumb. Him going out in a tornado is badass, but the way he got the heart attack was dumb and the build up to that moment was dumb

In actually responding to the OP's question, no he does not have to die for Clark to be Superman. Superman isn't a hero who's born out of tragedy or angst or failure, he doesn't need the death of a loved one to make him want to be a hero in the slightest. Hell, he works best when he's a source of moral guidance and loving pride for Clark's activities as Superman. He worked as a staple character of Superman's supporting cast whilst alive for decades after COIE, that's a testament to his presence in the Superman cast. But if he does have to die, he has to die in a manner that is totally unpredictable and that Superman is powerless to stop. Vis a vis, a heart attack is not a dumb way to kill off Jonathan Kent because it shows the limits on even Superman's powers. Not like, say, just standing around and letting your father die in a tornado 'cause it's badass. Anyone who believes that is basing it on a flawed understanding on one of the dumbest moments in a bad , bad film.

He did need to die, but it needs to be in a way that means there was nothing Superman could have done about it. In the first movie that was a very important part of who he is because it forced him to learn that not even he could save everyone. Its the thing that constantly reminds him that no, he is not a god.

@saintwildcard: Given your position on MOS, I wouldn't have been surprised if it wasn't a joke to be honest.

Eh, you've always had trouble telling when someone is joking (mostly me). The true part was my view on the Heart attack scene, not for the symbolism, but because of how it was done. It was a clunky cheesy scene and not in a good way (Smallville did it better). As for my view point on the tornado scene, I also had problems with it but I will go more in depth into it on Man of Steel month.

A heroes parents must die, it is law.

It's the Internet, most people can't tell when someone is being sarcastic. Likewise, you're not exempt from getting people's reactions and opinions mixed up so don't be throwing stones outside of glass windows as well. Moving on, there was nothing wrong with how that scene was done but of course you'd have to take issue with it, you're not known for your appreciation of anything older than the rebooted Superman. It wasn't clunky for Jonathan to suddenly die of a heart attack as it showed the limitations on what Superman can do and how he can't solve all of humanity's problems for them. And if you think Clark rushing over to find his father stone dead on the ground with no pulse is cheesy, then you're clearly taking your fascination with finding flaws and problems in the older source material too seriously. Nothing new there. And of course the tornado scene was flawed, the absurdity of how it played out ruined whatever impact Snyder wanted that scene to demonstrate. Subtlety and thematic plot development are not in Snyder's directing repertoire.

Brilliant, you're doing MOS month, haven't you spammed enough MOS threads on CV to last a lifetime? And didn't you also make a thread where you said you'd be quitting MOS argument threads? Seems like you're already going back on your word.

I don't think anyone has ever refereed to him dying in the tornado as Badass.... well, within the context of the movie. Or at the very least don't try to dress me down without atleast asking if I'm serious.

Moving on, there was nothing wrong with how that scene was done but of course you'd have to take issue with it, you're not known for your appreciation of anything older than the rebooted Superman. It wasn't clunky for Jonathan to suddenly die of a heart attack as it showed the limitations on what Superman can do and how he can't solve all of humanity's problems for them. And if you think Clark rushing over to find his father stone dead on the ground with no pulse is cheesy, then you're clearly taking your fascination with finding flaws and problems in the older source material too seriously.

Again, I'm fine with the Heart Attack (and I agree with the symbolism), but scene went from speech, to random challenge of running to heart attack. IT was a rather rushed and convenient scene. I feel like the Heart Attack needed to not be caused by some dumb running match. It need to be it's own thing, maybe Clark wakes up one morning and sees his dad dead, or he gets a call while at school.

Nothing new there. And of course the tornado scene was flawed, the absurdity of how it played out ruined whatever impact Snyder wanted that scene to demonstrate. Subtlety and thematic plot development are not in Snyder's directing repertoire.

Gonna withhold on saying anything about that scene for the moment. Just know that I don't hate it as much as you.

Brilliant, you're doing MOS month, haven't you spammed enough MOS threads on CV to last a lifetime? And didn't you also make a thread where you said you'd be quitting MOS argument threads? Seems like you're already going back on your word.

I'll stop when BvS comes out. As for that MoS thread.

A-I said I'd stop debating about MoS (but I couldn't last 24 hours :] )

B- As pointed out in point A, MoS month will have nothing to do with debating anyway.

C- I only plan on making 4 threads during that MOnth about MoS.

Eh

@saintwildcard:

I don't think anyone has ever refereed to him dying in the tornado as Badass.... well, within the context of the movie. Or at the very least don't try to dress me down without atleast asking if I'm serious.

Who would do so in their right minds? As for critiquing your points, it's not as if you're unreceptive towards any older depictions of Superman and prefer to focus on a narrow minded interpretation of what you solely want Superman to be despite that going against the core of the character right?

Again, I'm fine with the Heart Attack (and I agree with the symbolism), but scene went from speech, to random challenge of running to heart attack. IT was a rather rushed and convenient scene. I feel like the Heart Attack needed to not be caused by some dumb running match. It need to be it's own thing, maybe Clark wakes up one morning and sees his dad dead, or he gets a call while at school.

Jonathan's health had been a problem for some time, it's referenced in the film and it's not as if heart attacks can't happen suddenly in real life right? There's nothing wrong with Jonathan dying from overexerting his body in a race. Your other two suggestions are a lot less personal methods for Clark to discover his dad's died from a heart attack, though moreso the second one especially.

Gonna withhold on saying anything about that scene for the moment. Just know that I don't hate it as much as you.

We'll see what you say in your MOS blogs then.

I'll stop when BvS comes out. As for that MoS thread.

A-I said I'd stop debating about MoS (but I couldn't last 24 hours :] )

B- As pointed out in point A, MoS month will have nothing to do with debating anyway.

C- I only plan on making 4 threads during that MOnth about MoS.

Eh

1. What a surprise, you can't go one week without defending MOS to the death.
2. How will they have nothing to do with debating? People are going to comment and critique your posts, me included if I feel like rebutting your 'arguments' again.
3. Well that's at least a little more tolerable, though I have a feeling I know which of the more controversial topics you'll pick to defend.

Ugh, whatever dude.

Jonathan's health had been a problem for some time, it's referenced in the film and it's not as if heart attacks can't happen suddenly in real life right? There's nothing wrong with Jonathan dying from overexerting his body in a race. Your other two suggestions are a lot less personal methods for Clark to discover his dad's died from a heart attack, though moreso the second one especially.

Them knowing about his Health only makes it worse. Even if they didn't know it would cause a heart attack. The scene reminds me of an episode of Clone HIgh, where they introduce a character only to kill him off. The entire episode he would just state how much he loved life and would randomly say things like "And if I don't see you again, goodbye forever". After which, he died. Him getting challenged to a race after that speech reminds me of that. But instead of playing it straight and coming out comedic (which was the intention in Clone HIgh), they meant it to be serious which I couldn't take it as.

We'll see what you say in your MOS blogs then.

I suppose

What a surprise, you can't go one week without defending MOS to the death.

No, it's too much fun.

How will they have nothing to do with debating? People are going to comment and critique your posts, me included if I feel like rebutting your 'arguments' again.

That's on you, not on me. I've seen most of your arguments against MoS, most of it seems like MOnday Morning Quarterbacking (or being Captain Hindsight). But let's save it for then.

Well that's at least a little more tolerable, though I have a feeling I know which of the more controversial topics you'll pick to defend.

One will be full on review which I will do after watching the movie, the extras and reading both sides of the arguments. I will touch upon everything there, 2 other ones will just be top 10 lists

@saintwildcard:

Ugh, whatever dude.

Sure, ignoring my point and your own posts e.g saying you hope Pre New 52 Superman hopefully never comes back despite the large number of fans who prefer this incarnation only a few hours ago, makes this point go away.

Them knowing about his Health only makes it worse. Even if they didn't know it would cause a heart attack. The scene reminds me of an episode of Clone HIgh, where they introduce a character only to kill him off. The entire episode he would just state how much he loved life and would randomly say things like "And if I don't see you again, goodbye forever". After which, he died. Him getting challenged to a race after that speech reminds me of that. But instead of playing it straight and coming out comedic (which was the intention in Clone HIgh), they meant it to be serious which I couldn't take it as.

I fail to see how it can't be seen as a serious or tragic scene? The music, the timing, Glenn Ford's "Oh no" made that scene a suitably tragic way to have Jonahtan Kent die in a sudden and emotional manner. It's not comparable to this Clone High instance due to different factors and set up of how the scene played out. I'll agree Smallville did it better but it doesn't diminish the execution of the 1978 Superman scene at all.

No, it's too much fun.

Is that why you have some silly name for yourself now?

That's on you, not on me. I've seen most of your arguments against MoS, most of it seems like MOnday Morning Quarterbacking (or being Captain Hindsight). But let's save it for then.

Despite our rivalry on here, I'm far from the only person who's disagreed with your views on MOS and it being a good CBM. I'm pretty sure those guys might post on there too. And again I might not want to get into more MOS threads, I've done enough already for a lifetime. Criticizing after the event (yes I looked up what that meant) isn't exactly an unfair methodology of critique wouldn't you say? I've found your arguments to be repetitive and circular in nature from your track record on MOS threads. But hey let's save it for then.

The recent ones I only said cus I'm trying to keep my post count above yours.

I fail to see how it can't be seen as a serious or tragic scene? The music, the timing, Glenn Ford's "Oh no" made that scene a suitably tragic way to have Jonahtan Kent die in a sudden and emotional manner. It's not comparable to this Clone High instance due to different factors and set up of how the scene played out. I'll agree Smallville did it better but it doesn't diminish the execution of the 1978 Superman scene at all.

Eh, to each there own. Depends on how you see it.

Is that why you have some silly name for yourself now?

I don't get what you mean?

Despite our rivalry on here, I'm far from the only person who's disagreed with your views on MOS and it being a good CBM. I'm pretty sure those guys might post on there too.

Okay, so? The point of that review is a celebration of the 2 year anniversary and so I can finally do a legit review (my last one was purty bad). But none of this matters cus this was back when I said I wasn't going to debate MoS anymore, which I obviously went back on. If I still wasn't debating, a review is just my own thoughts on the matter, whether people want to debate me is their problem. I don't have to partake. But as stated, that doesn't matter anymore.

And again I might not want to get into more MOS threads, I've done enough already for a lifetime. Criticizing after the event (yes I looked up what that meant) isn't exactly an unfair methodology of critique wouldn't you say? I've found your arguments to be repetitive and circular in nature from your track record on MOS threads. But hey let's save it for then.

We keep saying till next time but taking a dig at each other before we do. I'm breaking that chain and really ending it till then.

@saintwildcard: I knew my little experiment of getting close to your post count last night would send you into overdrive. You do realise that quantity of posts doesn't equal quality right? Besides, I have over 3 months till I start university again so I have plenty of time to take back my place if I feel like it. I've already closed the gap by less than 50 posts in 2 days.

I don't think your posts are that bad. But thanks for the compliment dude

Besides, I have over 3 months till I start university again so I have plenty of time to take back my place if I feel like it. I've already closed the gap by less than 50 posts in 2 days.

To be fair, after I passed you I got bored and didn't post as much. Like wise I got time till I go back to school.

@saintwildcard: So is that way you went from 2260 to nearly 2320 just because I got within striking distance of your place? And you know what I mean so the coyness isn't really necessary.

@saintwildcard: Why people fail to understand the Johnathan death scene honestly doesn't make sense to me. It's a very well done scene and it makes sense.

Which one? THe old one or the new one?

@saintwildcard: New.

It has it's merits I agree. And some of the points brought up are kind of irrelevant. Why did he back and save the dog? Only a valid point if you don't have a soul and hate animals. Clark should have used super speed! The movie showed that Clark even at 33 was getting speed blitzed by a Faora, clearly speed was not his forte. The moment also made Pa Kent a hypocrite... in the most beautiful. Pa Kent was a good man but in a hard situation. People kept implying that Pa Kent didn't care about people, but that moment showed that he was helping people get to safety and was willing to sacrifice himself for his son. That being said, I agree to some extent that Clark should have done something. Clark up until that moment never listened to his father when it came to saving people, so it's odd that he didn't try there.

Jesus' father died, leaving his mother a widow. So, that's why Superman's father is almost always doomed.