Sent to Earth as an infant from the dying planet Krypton, Kal-El was adopted by the loving Kent family and raised in America's heartland as Clark Kent. Using his immense solar-fueled powers, he became Superman to defend mankind against all manner of threats while championing truth, justice, and the American way!
Well people view them very differently. Most people meet one or the other first and quickly make a snap decision about them. In Superman's case its a God, an alien, this larger than life being who is always there to catch you. After meeting someone like Superman people might walk away and think of him as different than he actually was, maybe see him as taller, bigger, this Hercules of a man.
When people meet Clark they often see him as mister average and really do not go "OMG HE HAS BLACK HAIR AND IS TALL HE MUST BE SUPERMAN!" He does not act like Superman, he does not talk like Superman and on many occasions his state of dress is certainly not considered Superman. But Clark should never be this bumbling fool. I would approach it like TAS, make him confident, intelligent and clearly show Clark Kent is the dominant side of him or the real him while Superman is the person he becomes.
Human errors can happen, little things that happen to all of us that would reinforce the idea that Clark is human, he is late, he gets caught in the rain without an umbrella, he searches all over for his keys when they are in his pocket.
Finally, people do not believe Superman has a other side, they think he flies around the world 24/7 saving people. This is reinforced when he does acts outside Metropolis and the USA. Watch a five min news report about how Superman put out a forest fire in Australia, then later helped prevent a reactor failure in say Germany most people in DC would go "Yep, that Superman for ya. Always there for us."
I know I have not really answered the OP's question but I think these are some points that should be considered before answering.
@saintwildcard I can understand your point about going full city in a short amount of time and I whole heatedly agree about his Kansas upbringing. It is a major part of him and should not be lost or abandoned. Flannel shirts would be a good thing for him to wear as people will roll there eyes and think "Country Bumpkin." but its not some ploy from Clark to avoid suspicion, he just happens to like flannel shirts and has a whole draw full of them.
It's a complicated distinction. On the one hand, Clark does do things to make himself seem as unlikely a candidate for Superman as possible, turning up late, occasionally doing something clumsy all to ensure his disguise of hiding in plain sight is as convincing as possible. On the other hand, Clark does show his principles and ethics in his journalistic work same as Superman demonstrating his moral fibre as a public superhero, albeit via his personal pieces and interviews with those who have had it rough and unfair. I think Waid struck a good balance in Birthright where Clark makes a great speech on why he wants to work for the Planet based on its journalistic values and then knocks over a pot of pencils to balance his image out.
That's what's needed in the secret identity crisis, balance between Clark's meek and serious side as well as his personality shifting slightly when he's Superman. I can only hope other writers address this once Truth and this current creative team end their tenure because the dual identity is sorely needed in Superman's mythos.
I would've taken advantage of Lobdell move of having Clark storm out of the Daily Planet, and created that news site with Cat Grant. And I'd have Clark use his powers and kryptonian tech to create a kind of information spy system, he could use to explore multiple leads. To provide information to Cat everytime he was supposedly off exploring new leads. That system could actually pretend to be Clark and talk with Cat offering her the news. All the while Superman was taking care of other stuff, somewhere else.
It would also help if he created more articles, questioning Superman actions. And sometimes use a robot of Clark or Superman to appear in a interview. That way they'd be seen together, side by side.
If I was in charge of Superman comics direction I would've never sent him back to the Daily Planet. I'd continued with what Lobdell started.
First thing, Superman would not have any kind of a relationship with Jimmy Olsen or Lois... Clark would, but if Superman does too, then that opens the door to that whole "how come that can't figure out he's Superman?". He just flies in, saves them, and leaves saying very little. It's one of many things I like about the golden age of comics.
Another thing is the Superman/Clark dynamic... Superman = pillar of justice and virtue, impossible and godly, Clark = real person with an ordinary personality (he doesn't have to be a nerd or cowardly like past depictions)... In this case, Superman is the fake persona, he speaks in a deeper, booming voice. Pokes his chest out, exudes confidence, pretending to be that infallible being that he's supposed to be. And only people that are close to him, e.g. the Justice League, know he's just a regular guy with super powers
The thing about a Secret Identity of Superman is the fact that Clark has to act unlike himself to not arouse suspicion, so he can protect those who he loves. That's the point. Honestly if Superman acted like himself all the time as Clark, then people would just figure out who he is by the second he opens his mouth. I'd sincerely welcome Clark acting as a bumbling reporter, unlike some people here, because it'd be a stark contrast the the relaxed and confident Superman. Or, as Mark Waid did in Birthright, have Clark acting like a forgettable and shy character, so much so that his co-workers pay no mind to him at all.
If it were up to me as a writer, I would make physical differences between the two.
Mark Waid had the right idea of making Superman's eyes into a sort of etherial blue. Well, I'd go one step forward and make his sclera entirely black and he could switch to the human white when he is in his Clark Kent façade. Not only would it make an obvious difference between Clark and Superman, but it would emphasize his alien nature and make him look much more exotic as a result. Jor El would explain to him how he can do so in his simulations.
I'd also use the idea that that DC has demonstrated recently, that there are other Supermen in his dimension. So people would notice that there are a few other people that look like Superman other that this universe's Clark Kent. And if there ever is a situation where Clark needs help securing his secret ID any further, he'd contact the other Supermen for help.
The thing about a Secret Identity of Superman is the fact that Clark has to act unlike himself to not arouse suspicion, so he can protect those who he loves. That's the point. Honestly if Superman acted like himself all the time as Clark, then people would just figure out who he is by the second he opens his mouth. I'd sincerely welcome Clark acting as a bumbling reporter, unlike some people here, because it'd be a stark contrast the the relaxed and confident Superman. Or, as Mark Waid did in Birthright, have Clark acting like a forgettable and shy character, so much so that his co-workers pay no mind to him at all.
The reason CLark works at the DP at all is cus he likes it and he wants to have a normal life among us, it's his down time. HIm pretending to be something he's not is not relaxing. Knock down the clumsiness (as someone stated, forgetting his keys or knocking things down but don't make him a Three Stooges Clutz) a more normal level, kick up the farmboy upbringing and make Superman the fake personality. If all Clark wanted to do was keep the people around him safe, that's one thing but that's not it. In reality, he doesn't even need to work or eat or sleep. So why put himself in that situation at all if it's not to live a normal life?
Clark hangs out in the Daily Planet because he can hear about disasters as they happen, not to have a normal life.
So why put himself in that situation at all if it's not to live a normal life?
Because he wants his friends and family and everybody who knows him to have a normal life, to be safe from the enemies he has and will have in the future. He's selfless like that.
Clark meets Zatanna as a young man and she puts an enchantment on his glasses to make him appear more average and less Superman like. Boom. Secret i.d problem solved. Then try Clark out in a new job, he could become a private investigator or something along those lines.
I think Clark would be smart enough to adapt to the environment. I for one liked when he became a hard nosed reporter and stuck his guns no longer the joke.
The joke was yesterday and bad. Had he tried that in todays world they would chew him up and spit him out and that is just to do the weather.
Clark is just his name and superman is another name loses nothing or gains nothing when he takes off and puts on the suit and I for one would like it to stay that way.
I just watched he Gods and Monsters dvd and sadly I purchased it.
It was horrible.
I do not care where he lands or where he grows up but superman should look the same way no matter what. He stands tall he does impossible things he simply lives to inspire the desire to be more.
Clark Kent would be the same way , To hide in plain sight to be more as a grade A top notch reporter and to tell a story that changes the world and proves just how mighty the written word can be when the soul that pumps the ink is just that and so much more.
To rare a day when we fail to see Clark shine in the light and not Superman Clark can Shine pretty well.
I would make Clark strong and able minded winning over all that came his way with a gester with a smile and with a great weekly that sits full time on the front page of the Daily. A daily that says simply how to win in your daily struggle and how to over come and save the day.
All in all just food for thought.
Superman may be strong and fast and can fly.
But at the end of the day Clark gets to be all those things and touch the hearts and minds of millions of people every single day.
That was without a doubt a punch to the stomach. When I saw he was returning to the DP like the motives that had lead him to leave were no longer there.
Because they are. Morgan is still the DP owner, has far has we all know the politics on the DP are still the same, not only that at least with Lobdell the Planet looked like a 21st century high tech newspaper, not like what Johns did, by making it look like it got stuck somewhere in the early 20th century.
And yeah, Clark and Cat had a equal partnership, so not even taking the time to have the two parting ways, was really like giving the middle finger to Lobdell.
So how Clark returns to the Daily Planet just like that, is something I'll never forgive Johns.
I know a lot of people criticized Lobdell run, I never did, and looking back now, it's like seeing a diamond smashed to dust. You can work with a diamond, but diamond dust... Not so much.
Oh. And thanks.
Yeah I noticed that I'd reached the top 10 posters. It was never my goal it simply happened.
The thing about a Secret Identity of Superman is the fact that Clark has to act unlike himself to not arouse suspicion, so he can protect those who he loves. That's the point. Honestly if Superman acted like himself all the time as Clark, then people would just figure out who he is by the second he opens his mouth. I'd sincerely welcome Clark acting as a bumbling reporter, unlike some people here, because it'd be a stark contrast the the relaxed and confident Superman. Or, as Mark Waid did in Birthright, have Clark acting like a forgettable and shy character, so much so that his co-workers pay no mind to him at all.
If it were up to me as a writer, I would make physical differences between the two.
Mark Waid had the right idea of making Superman's eyes into a sort of etherial blue. Well, I'd go one step forward and make his sclera entirely black and he could switch to the human white when he is in his Clark Kent façade. Not only would it make an obvious difference between Clark and Superman, but it would emphasize his alien nature and make him look much more exotic as a result. Jor El would explain to him how he can do so in his simulations.
I'd also use the idea that that DC has demonstrated recently, that there are other Supermen in his dimension. So people would notice that there are a few other people that look like Superman other that this universe's Clark Kent. And if there ever is a situation where Clark needs help securing his secret ID any further, he'd contact the other Supermen for help.
In a way that's why I would really like to see Clark doing something else. I never liked that for Superman to shine, Clark has to be shy, uncomfortable, doesn't make waves. Heck I never understood what Lois saw in him, because he was basically invisible in the DP. That's why for a great amount of time I said that Lois fell in love with Superman not Clark. Unlike Lana that fell in love with Clark.
Clark and the DP have outgrown each other, in my opinion. We could have a smart, funny, sociable Clark, that from nothing created his own tech company, and we could have Superman, that saves the day from everything that comes his way.
This way, both personas of Kal-El would be of use to humanity. While one dealt with things like creating clean sources of energy, medical treatments, genetic engineering, and all other R&D stuff. Superman would be the powerhouse that stopped the crazy, evil meta-humans and alien menaces.
Has for him and the Daily Planet, if DC wanted to keep his connection to Lois, Jimmy and Perry, being a multi-millionaire he could buy the DP and guarantee that people like Morgan Edge or Lex Luthor, never got their greedy hands on it.
I'm still not seeing how the Daily Planet is any more boring, repetitive or technically pointless and selfish than anything else Superman could be doing in his time when he's not being Superman. The blogging card some users like to cling as of late to is heinously overrated considering the problems writers would face in creating an interesting supporting cast that wouldn't just involve Clark basically competing with the usual Daily Planet staff. That's exactly what Clark was doing at the Daily Planet already. Many of us blog about our thoughts and views, think about how difficult it would be to make supporting casts that weren't just our family and friends if for some bizarre reason our life was made into a fictional story.
Clark returning to the Daily Planet might have been predictable but what's even more disrespectful than that is Johns' story being thrown out of the window in exchange for this current state of affairs. No build up, no warning, just throwing the "Clark Kent secret is out" card into the wind to be blown about here, there and everywhere.
I certainly don't believe Clark should leave the Daily Planet or his journalistic profession any time soon. Despite the current state and even propaganda state the media has become, being a journalist still works for Superman based on why his creators made him a journalist in the first place.
Before journalism became sensationalist and agenda based, it was supposed to arm people with knowledge, awareness and truthful facts about their lives and the world they live in and to give insights to those they may not know about as well as exposing those who would take advantage of others. That's the principle Superman was created on, and I don't want to see it replaced by a gritty and brash identity-less vigilante. Nor do I want Superman to become the next Bruce Wayne or Tony Stark, Spider-Man's supposed to be cutting in on that gig based on Marvel's November solicitations and that's not befitting Peter's character either IMO.
But that's just it. What do characters like Bruce Wayne do when it comes to business. He delegates. In his case if it wasn't for Lucius Fox I don't know what would've become of Wayne enterprises. After all Bruce either spends most of his time looking for clues and examining cases or he's at some party pretending to be a playboy billionaire, that doesn't have a care in the world.
Clark with the intellect his powers grant him, he could either be the CEO of his own R&D company.
Or he could have started out doing R&D on his own, sold the patents, gained a lot of money and if news is to be his thing. Then we could have seen him at first with his own news website, and eventually when Morgan Edge corruption threatened the Daily Planet integrity, he could buy the DP from Edge and he would be the owner. Being the owner would allow him more freedom to come and go has he pleased. He could have someone delegated to run the Daily Planet when he was out, but he no longer would need to give excuses for where he was and what he was doing.
Let's face it. Nowadays Clark wouldn't be able to get so many freebies at any job. Like when he disappears for days, weeks or months at a time. He'd been fired all the time.
Also being the owner of the DP wouldn't stop him from being friends with Jimmy, Lois and Perry. Quite the contrary.
And he wouldn't need to be like Bruce. He could be Clark and Superman, without having to sacrifice either of his personas. Has Clark he could actually use his powers, to search for secrets that no one else would've access to. Allowing the DP to be able to get the best scoops, not always of course, but when it really mattered. After all to much attention could actually draw unwanted attention.
But at least he could fight in both fronts. Has Clark Kent and has Superman.
I bet even Diana would understand better, why he felt the need for Clark Kent to exist.
In my opinion it isn't just his control over his powers that needs to improve, but also his control over both sides of his life.
Clark meets Zatanna as a young man and she puts an enchantment on his glasses to make him appear more average and less Superman like. Boom. Secret i.d problem solved. Then try Clark out in a new job, he could become a private investigator or something along those lines.
So in the end, it really depends on the writer as to why Clark works at the Daily. But it's not as set in stone anymore that he does it to keep his ear to hear about any danger.It makes more sense that way. He hears about danger, saves the day, and then reports on the activities that happened to show the truth. All while keeping his identity a secret.
He uses Clark to relax and live a normal life, whether he works at the daily or not, a normal life isn't lying to yourself or pretending to be something your not. He already keeps everyone safe by having a secret identity, he deserves to be him in his time off. Clark is a good guy, not a saint. Byrne's Superman is the way to go. Or for Pete's sake use some of hat alien tech to make yourself look fat and tan.
People aren't dumb. If Clark doesn't try to be different from Superman, someone is bound to find out. He's not lying to himself, he's lying to the world to keep people close to him safe. Superman has the Fortress of Solitude for him to relax.
Clark and the DP have outgrown each other, in my opinion. We could have a smart, funny, sociable Clark, that from nothing created his own tech company, and we could have Superman, that saves the day from everything that comes his way.
I'm pretty tired of people trying to make Superman like Batman...
Before journalism became sensationalist and agenda based, it was supposed to arm people with knowledge, awareness and truthful facts about their lives and the world they live in and to give insights to those they may not know about as well as exposing those who would take advantage of others
QFT
Pluse, there are ALOT of bloggers that annoyingly think of themselves as Journalists in this current time. I rather not have Superman be a part of that.
Clark meets Zatanna as a young man and she puts an enchantment on his glasses to make him appear more average and less Superman like. Boom. Secret i.d problem solved. Then try Clark out in a new job, he could become a private investigator or something along those lines.
I could see that working.
I'm not a fan of using magic glasses to conceal his secret ID but in the DC universe where magic exists it makes more sense than normal glasses and a slouch. Anyway it doesn't matter now.
@jogga: Indeed, the reputation and personality of bloggers is partly why I absolutely didn't want Clark to become an independent blogger and was glad Johns brought him back to the familiar ground of the Daily Planet even if it was a bit predictable.
I'm pretty tired of people trying to make Superman like Batman...
And I'm tired of people that don't seem to see the difference in the two situations.
Clark would build his own company or news site from zero. Bruce Wayne inherited all he has.
Clark would use such company and/or news site to explore the news other non-impartial media, don't even care about because they're paid to look the other way. And you know this happens in real life, just look at Fox News.While Bruce. What exactly does he do in Wayne Enterprises!? Host a few charity balls, and creates a few fundations, but that's it. He's to busy either trying to prevent the next crime or developing tech to fight both his enemies and allies. Lucius Fox is the true engine of Wayne Enterprises.
If he had his own R&D company, Clark could use what he knows of kryptonian tech, plus the intellect his powers grant him to explore new solutions to technological problems humans can't surpass. Never going to far of course. After all if he solved all of humanity problems then humanity has a whole would never grow. He can or could do what Bruce can't. After all, not all the money in the world can buy intelligence.
And there's one main difference that would always set them apart. Clark would not use his money to come up with ways to stop or kill his friends. Something that Bruce will always do, because he's the human of the group and he feels it's up to him to come up with plans for every scenario imaginable.
What I really don't understand is how people still think it's enough for Clark to write a few stories, that some people will read and most will not. And that's okay, he's done all he can do. Kal as Clark and Superman could do much more than what he does. And lets face it, working on a newspaper. That's old school. If I want to inform myself about what happens I read the online news, I'm not gonna buy a newspaper just so I could throw it in the trash. We're in the age of recycling and where news change by the hour, a online news site gives me and everyone, instant access to information. Something that a piece of paper could never provide.
And taking into account what this thread is all about, Kal could develop glasses with kryptonian tech that would interfere with the human brain associative paterns function. That way everyone that looked at Clark directly would never be able to see the similarities between him and Superman.
@heavenlydarkdragon: All of that would make Superman an unrecognisable character acting like something he's not. Same as he is in the Truth arc. I'm not saying your ideas are bad or unoriginal, they're not at all. They would work with another alien character trying to fit in on Earth. But I won't mince my words with this sentence, what you're proposing doesn't sound like it would fit Superman and his kind of stories. If this is what you want Superman to be, maybe you should try something else. There are plenty of alternate takes on Superman with other characters that accomplish what you seem to like. But your ideas are not synonymous with what a Superman story should be about and deal with. Certainly not the parts about establishing a news corporation of his own and especially not creating his own R&D company. That's Spider-Man's status quo in Marvel come November and there are plenty of superheroes with their own companies already. Do we need Superman to cut in on that act and lose what makes him original?
I'm pretty tired of people trying to make Superman like Batman...
And I'm tired of people that don't seem to see the difference in the two situations.
Clark would build his own company or news site from zero. Bruce Wayne inherited all he has.
Clark would use such company and/or news site to explore the news other non-impartial media, don't even care about because they're paid to look the other way. And you know this happens in real life, just look at Fox News.While Bruce. What exactly does he do in Wayne Enterprises!? Host a few charity balls, and creates a few fundations, but that's it. He's to busy either trying to prevent the next crime or developing tech to fight both his enemies and allies. Lucius Fox is the true engine of Wayne Enterprises.
If he had his own R&D company, Clark could use what he knows of kryptonian tech, plus the intellect his powers grant him to explore new solutions to technological problems humans can't surpass. Never going to far of course. After all if he solved all of humanity problems then humanity has a whole would never grow. He can or could do what Bruce can't. After all, not all the money in the world can buy intelligence.
And there's one main difference that would always set them apart. Clark would not use his money to come up with ways to stop or kill his friends. Something that Bruce will always do, because he's the human of the group and he feels it's up to him to come up with plans for every scenario imaginable.
What I really don't understand is how people still think it's enough for Clark to write a few stories, that some people will read and most will not. And that's okay, he's done all he can do. Kal as Clark and Superman could do much more than what he does. And lets face it, working on a newspaper. That's old school. If I want to inform myself about what happens I read the online news, I'm not gonna buy a newspaper just so I could throw it in the trash. We're in the age of recycling and where news change by the hour, a online news site gives me and everyone, instant access to information. Something that a piece of paper could never provide.
And taking into account what this thread is all about, Kal could develop glasses with kryptonian tech that would interfere with the human brain associative paterns function. That way everyone that looked at Clark directly would never be able to see the similarities between him and Superman.
I don't buy Superman becoming a billionaire and using Kryptonian tech for profit and for people; having his own company as a result.
It just doesn't fit his mythos at all.
I'm not going to sugarcoat this; it sounds like a move to try and make Superman kewl, instead of adding to his mythology and character. Not to mention that making him a billionaire and owner of his own company does sound too much like Batman for my liking, regardless of how they acquired his position and who keeps it together.
While I want Clark to act more differently than Superman to make it more believable, I still want him to be a reporter because being a reporter is still just as important as it was all those decades ago. Clark will never stop fighting for Truth whenever he can. Sure, The Newspaper industry is a bit more obsolete, but that doesn't mean that The Daily Planet and reporting in general are obsolete; all it needs is to grow with the times. Report on the Daily Planet's website n' shit.
I can suspend my disbelief enough to not want to change anything.
Plus I think there isn't any reason to since I feel no one would believe Superman has a SID in the first place.
I still support my Idea of giving Superman a black sclera that he can change to white when he's Clark. It's cool, practical, and nobody is ever going to change my mind lol ^-^
I can suspend my disbelief enough to not want to change anything.
Plus I think there isn't any reason to since I feel no one would believe Superman has a SID in the first place.
It's not really a matter of belief. A person would just take one look at Clark and see he's Superman. It doesn't help that he's suppose to be a handsome, 6' 4", 200+ lbs guy either. Someone of that description always draws people attention. The concept of his secret I.D was so dated and ridiculous, it had to be changed.
I can suspend my disbelief enough to not want to change anything.
Plus I think there isn't any reason to since I feel no one would believe Superman has a SID in the first place.
It's not really a matter of belief. A person would just take one look at Clark and see he's Superman. It doesn't help that he's suppose to be a handsome, 6' 4", 200+ lbs guy either. Someone of that description always draws people attention. The concept of his secret I.D was so dated and ridiculous, it had to be changed.
Come on, as a Superman fan surely you realise there's more to Clark's disguise than that. He slouches his posture, musses his hair, wears baggy suits and clothes, acts with more clumsiness and differences in personality than when he's Superman and in some versions, his glasses change his eye shape. Someone of that description would not be the first person you would think of You're looking into this too much as a reader who knows who Clark is already. I could not emphatically disagree with your view more if I tried, your interpretation of the secret identity is not one I share at all. The secret identity is not dated and it is not ridiculous, there is plausibility and justification to it and most importantly, IT'S A FICTIONAL COMIC BOOK STORY. Where people can fly, bend steel and change their faces but a guy hiding behind a change of clothes and personality is too hard to believe that it needed to be changed? I'm sorry but I don't see what's dated and ridiculous about Clark Kent's identity. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, a mantra the Superman writers have failed to remember currently.
I never said billionaire. Leave Bruce Wayne out of this for a few seconds.
If he at first sold a few patents to earn himself a good deal of money, it would be better than him just crushing coal into diamonds and selling them.
He would be a millionaire, and maybe a multi-millionaire, but not a billionaire. He wouldn't need so much money.
All I propose is him having enough to make a difference has both Clark and Superman. Because at the end of the day, Clark Kent, doesn't do much. Sure he writes a few news articles but that's it.
And when he needs to bail to save people he always needs to come up with an excuse. Why the need for that is what really irritates me. After all, with all his powers he could be Superman 24/7, he wouldn't need no job and answer to anyone. So if we're to continue to have to deal with Clark Kent, then at least make him more interesting, more sociable active, if Superman reacts to threats, Clark should be pro-active to the small things, the everyday things. All I want is for both sides of his alter egos to be appealing.
Do we need Superman to cut in on that act and lose what makes him original?
That's part of the problem right there. And maybe one of the main reasons some people stopped following Superman.
To stick to the original that implies there's no room for improvement. And that right there, my friend is where Superman has been losing ground to characters like Batman.
Batman couldn't be today what he was 5, 10 or 20 years ago. No one would read anything from Batman. That character has continously evolved with every crisis, becoming better. Not only with the tech at his disposal, but also how he views for example a crime scene. We see Batman using current day terminology, with both science related statements, and even the tech he uses.
Superman on the other hand is stuck. Why? Because most fanbase fears change. Fear to see the character alter a few details about itself. Small stuff that wouldn't actually change him a lot, if anything he would be better off. But still most fans don't want it, they don't even want to think about it.
But! At the same time, they want his stories to improve. They want him to be better.
And here lies the problem. People can't have it both ways. Either they go left or they go right. The coin either falls on its head or its tail.
So to everyone that wants Superman comics to improve I say "Welcome change with a open mind" and to everyone that doesn't want change I say this "Stop complaining".
That's part of the problem right there. And maybe one of the main reasons some people stopped following Superman.
Incorrect, why people have stopped following Superman is because DC feel the need to make unnecessary and unneeded changes to his backstory and status quo.
To stick to the original that implies there's no room for improvement. And that right there, my friend is where Superman has been losing ground to characters like Batman
I'm not saying everything should stay exactly the same but I strongly believe the greatest potential for more and better Superman stories lies in respecting his roots. It lies in expanding Superman's cast and giving him stability, not rapidly changing Superman's identity, cast, outlook, powers and more just to make him more contemporary and modern. Better writers have made Superman modern and relevant without losing what makes him a unique and compelling character.
Batman couldn't be today what he was 5, 10 or 20 years ago.
Considering TDKR and Year One extend beyond your timeframes, I'd say this point is well and truly defunct of any validity.
No one would read anything from Batman. That character has continously evolved with every crisis, becoming better. Not only with the tech at his disposal, but also how he views for example a crime scene.
And although I agree that's been a good thing for Batman, there are those who feel Batman is too much of an overpowered Mary Sue of a human being in the comics that he's lost his detective roots and is now either too much of a brooding crusader, too much of a ridiculously skilled martial artist or has way too much technology at his disposal to the point that he could rid Gotham of crime if he truly wanted to. Some want him to go back to being the simpler character he was before the era of the Batgod. And you forgot how all these changes don't, for the most part, detract from who Batman is. Him being a genius billionaire master martial artist is still not a far cry from the character's roots.
We see Batman using current day terminology, with both science related statements, and even the tech he uses.
What does this have to do with Batman being more marketable and better than Superman? Superman does the same thing in his comics too, both Pre and Post New 52.
Superman on the other hand is stuck. Why? Because most fanbase fears change.
This is a huge and reductive generalisation on your part. Most of his fanbase fears bad change like what we're having to put up with at the moment. Bad change to a character is not better than a character being stuck in his ways and what's even better is consistent stability evolving at a natural and organic manner in Superman's stories as well his own personal world in the DCU.
Fear to see the character alter a few details about itself. Small stuff that wouldn't actually change him a lot, if anything he would be better off
Oh you mean the part where he's now a brash macho man who punches first and asks questions later? Or the part where he's now dating Wonder Woman because he felt lonely? Or the part where his secret identity is outed to the world leaving him without his way of connecting with humanity without being Superman? Remind me which of these details are small in scale.
But still most fans don't want it, they don't even want to think about it.
But! At the same time, they want his stories to improve. They want him to be better.
Of course they do, this is a character they're invested in and care about. It doesn't mean they want the character to be misrepresented or poorly treated in the comics.
And here lies the problem. People can't have it both ways. Either they go left or they go right. The coin either falls on its head or its tail.
This is rich coming from the guy whose idea of a perfect Superman is an overpowered Mary Sue with psionic mental powers, no weaknesses, no secret identity, focusing more on Superman's Kryptonian rather than human side and now it seems running a multi billion global tech empire. Essentially an amalgamation of Martian Manhunter, Batman, Iron Man, Mr Majestic and Dr Manhatten all wrapped up in an emotionally stunted and detached packaged labelled Superman. I can't see the fanbase reacting all that positively to your interpretation of Superman based on your ideas.
So to everyone that wants Superman comics to improve I say "Welcome change with a open mind" and to everyone that doesn't want change I say this "Stop complaining".
And to this statement I say "Just because it's different from something else doesn't make it good." There's nothing wrong with complaining if there's grounds to do so.
I can suspend my disbelief enough to not want to change anything.
Plus I think there isn't any reason to since I feel no one would believe Superman has a SID in the first place.
It's not really a matter of belief. A person would just take one look at Clark and see he's Superman. It doesn't help that he's suppose to be a handsome, 6' 4", 200+ lbs guy either. Someone of that description always draws people attention. The concept of his secret I.D was so dated and ridiculous, it had to be changed.
Come on, as a Superman fan surely you realise there's more to Clark's disguise than that. He slouches his posture, musses his hair, wears baggy suits and clothes, acts with more clumsiness and differences in personality than when he's Superman and in some versions, his glasses change his eye shape. Someone of that description would not be the first person you would think of You're looking into this too much as a reader who knows who Clark is already. I could not emphatically disagree with your view more if I tried, your interpretation of the secret identity is not one I share at all. The secret identity is not dated and it is not ridiculous, there is plausibility and justification to it and most importantly, IT'S A FICTIONAL COMIC BOOK STORY. Where people can fly, bend steel and change their faces but a guy hiding behind a change of clothes and personality is too hard to believe that it needed to be changed? I'm sorry but I don't see what's dated and ridiculous about Clark Kent's identity. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, a mantra the Superman writers have failed to remember currently.
I understand what you're saying I really do, part of me wants to just except it but I can't, it seems utterly ridiculous to me. I think it feels like another aspect of the character that exists purely for lazy convenience, like the yellow sun explanation being source of his powers explaining away why all Kryptonians didn't have his abilities on Krypton B.S. I think in reality all the things you mentioned would draw attention to him. How many big guys have you ever met in your life that are built like line backers, dress in clothing a size to big, constantly walking around with a ridiculous slouch, messy hair and often acts like a fool? EVERYONE would notice that guy! I concede that he could pull it off temporarily, if his interaction with people were brief, but never hold down full time job in an office. You got me on the "IT'S A FICTIONAL COMIC BOOK STORY." get out of jail free card. And you could make the argument that Superman was broke, they tried to fix it, and failed miserably. You can't act like they were putting out consistently good quality Superman stories before New 52.
I think it was done perfectly in All-Star Superman, where when Superman is Clark Kent, he does everything from change his posture to how he talks and walks. Clark walks with a slightly slumped posture, he pushes his stomach out to make it seem like he's slightly overweight, and of course and talks and acts slightly cowardly.
Incorrect, why people have stopped following Superman is because DC feel the need to make unnecessary and unneeded changes to his backstory and status quo.
This is of course your opinion. You're only looking at one side of the coin. Has the changes have pushed some people away, it also pulled some people that before found both his backstory and status quo, the main reason to stay away.
I'm not saying everything should stay exactly the same but I strongly believe the greatest potential for more and better Superman stories lies in respecting his roots. It lies in expanding Superman's cast and giving him stability, not rapidly changing Superman's identity, cast, outlook, powers and more just to make him more contemporary and modern. Better writers have made Superman modern and relevant without losing what makes him a unique and compelling character.
Yes. Respecting his roots. The problem being each one definition of his roots.
Some people hated to see him has boyscout, other people liked that aspect about him. Some people liked him less powerful, others say he's not that powerful compared with other characters. That his weaknesses greatly diminish him has a character. That we should be able to do a lot more without the need to actually exit the basis of his powers.
Others prefered the old depiction of Krypton, others want Krypton to be more explored, to actually show or hint why kryptonians are has they are. Others couldn't care less about Krypton, for all they care Krypton should only be mentioned and never talked about again.
Others still like the Truth, Justice and the American Way. Others (quite a lot especially those forums that are not american) that think that Truth, Justice and the American Way, is bunch of cr&p. And that it should be simplified Doing The Right Thing. That in a world of grays, with gray characters, Superman should shine above those and defend what's right.
Considering TDKR and Year One extend beyond your timeframes, I'd say this point is well and truly defunct of any validity.
Strange statement seeing that besides the basis, of what makes Batman, Batman. A lot of things have changed. His dynamic towards certain characters like Jim Gordon, The Joker, Gotham itself has gone from periods of dark, to extreme dark, and dark again. In fact the only character that seems unchangable is Alfred. That man has been pretty much the same from the start.
This is a huge and reductive generalisation on your part. Most of his fanbase fears bad change like what we're having to put up with at the moment. Bad change to a character is not better than a character being stuck in his ways and what's even better is consistent stability evolving at a natural and organic manner in Superman's stories as well his own personal world in the DCU.
It's only a generalisation, if people identify themselves with it. If you're not afraid of change, if you want things to get better for the character then change is unavoidable. And you know it. There's no use me, you or anyone to bury our heads in the sand.
And although I agree that the character needs stability, it can't be consistent. The only way that would work is if the same team worked on Superman permanently. And even then it wouldn't be a certain thing. I also read manga, and in manga the writer is always the same, and even then there's some moves and changes that get the fans shouting "WTF!"
Or at least there would've to be place specific rules that no team could break. DC would have to say "Our vision of Superman is this... And now you'll have to work around that vision." Do you see it happening? Because I don't.
Also that stability can't be an opposing force to evolution. A character needs to evolve. For example to me this Flare power was one of the DC greatest mistakes. Superman doesn't need new powers. He needed to increase his control over the powers he already had. If his powers are the store/processing/manipulation of solar energy, then let him explore that manipulation to it's full potential. And then, only then, maybe... Add more powers. But powers that are a consequence of his training and evolution and not simply something that simply appeared and now he needs to learn to control.
What does this have to do with Batman being more marketable and better than Superman? Superman does the same thing in his comics too, both Pre and Post New 52.
Yes and no. Batman when speaking of technology he speaks like you and me would speak of it, if we were familiarized with it. Superman when speaking of technology sometimes he's able to understand the most complex things and then fails with simpler stuff. Or to be more precise, Batman knowledge seems and sounds stable, while Superman knowledge is shaky at best.
Oh you mean the part where he's now a brash macho man who punches first and asks questions later? Or the part where he's now dating Wonder Woman because he felt lonely? Or the part where his secret identity is outed to the world leaving him without his way of connecting with humanity without being Superman? Remind me which of these details are small in scale.
Again. Your personal point of view. Here's me doing the same:
How about his futile, and ultimately hopeless relationship with Lois? He'd either outlived her or died at the hands of one his foes. And humans? How could he ever felt satisfied being around them? His parents aging, becoming more frail and weak, all of Lois near death calls. How can someone like him even stand being near people that will never know even in their wildest dreams what he feels, what's like to be him or like him? Justice, Truth and the American Way. How could he look at Gotham for example, and still believe in that? Did he never left America? Because the world is pretty messed up without aliens and super-villains in it. Plain villains do a lot more damage.
See. This was me only looking from my point of view.
Him and Diana, are a natural match. The same way that if Koriandr (aka Starfire) wasn't exactly the opposite of Superman, I'd say that the two could also be a pair. Diana, might not be a kryptonian, but she's no stranger to power and responsability. You say they started a relationship because they were lonely, I say they got tired of trying in the wrong place, with the wrong people. Humans can never know what they know, and has such, they chose to enjoy the fact that each of them was what the other needed.
If you were in a war, I'd like to see you ask questions first and punch later. Superman is at war, simple has that. The world developed amnesia and forgot who saved their lives more times than they can count. And now that he's weaker, all that had a problem with him but were cowards to do something about it, now those are the machos. Maybe if Supes broke a few necks or ripped some spines people would think twice about kicking a man when he's down. I always hated bullies. I punched bullies from highschool to college, with no hesitation. And Supes is doing what he needs to do. Has you would if placed in a fight or flight situation. Talk only works when both parties want to talk.
And the secret identity. What about it? He's not Clark Kent, he's not even Superman. He's Kal-El of Krypton. That's the truth behind Truth. If he was so pleased being human, all he needed to do was banish from the map. And create a all new identity and start over fresh, somewhere far away. But at the first chance he put his t-shirt on and kept on fighting. And it's that determination, and how he's now able to see, really see, what people think of him, that's making Truth worth reading.
Of course they do, this is a character they're invested in and care about. It doesn't mean they want the character to be misrepresented or poorly treated in the comics.
Almost no path worth taking is linear. Sometimes mistakes have to be made in order for people to learn what not to do.
This is rich coming from the guy whose idea of a perfect Superman is an overpowered Mary Sue with psionic mental powers, no weaknesses, no secret identity, focusing more on Superman's Kryptonian rather than human side and now it seems running a multi billion global tech empire. Essentially an amalgamation of Martian Manhunter, Batman, Iron Man, Mr Majestic and Dr Manhatten all wrapped up in an emotionally stunted and detached packaged labelled Superman. I can't see the fanbase reacting all that positively to your interpretation of Superman based on your ideas.
Yeah. I can see them not reacting all too well if like you, they only remembered only what they wanted to remember. You don't take into account everything a person says or said. No! You bashout without thinking. Go back and read what I actually wrote and then talk.
First of all when I have talked about psionics, I've always said that the mix of bio-energy and psionics would better explain how the powers of a kryptonian might work. You can cling to the solar battery nonsense all you want. Me. I prefer to think for myself.
I never said no weakness. Get your facts straight! I said I would reduce Superman weaknesses to kryptonite only. And that psionic training would eventually. Eventually! Help him overcome that weakness, helping him not be so vulnerable to it. But seeing that kryptonite grows on trees and has and endless ability to create isotopes from, even if Superman was able to reduce his vulnerability to green-K, when dealing with red, blue, black, silver, gold, gem, and so on... He would again be vulnerable to kryptonite.
One could only hope to god he was more like Mr Majestic. That way I would've no complaints about his powers and intelligence.
Batman... Please! If things weren't conveniently done in Batman favor, he'd be a dead man, a long time ago. And I'm not even refering to him being killed by Superman. Batman own rogue gallery is more than enough to have killed him a hundred times over.
Martian Manhunter. Great character, great potential, poorly used and writen. Nah. Supes already suffers enough, I don't want more negative stuff added to the already impressive negative baggage.
I understand what you're saying I really do, part of me wants to just except it but I can't, it seems utterly ridiculous to me. I think it feels like another aspect of the character that exists purely for lazy convenience, like the yellow sun explanation being source of his powers explaining away why all Kryptonians didn't have his abilities on Krypton B.S. I think in reality all the things you mentioned would draw attention to him. How many big guys have you ever met in your life that are built like line backers, dress in clothing a size to big, constantly walking around with a ridiculous slouch, messy hair and often acts like a fool? EVERYONE would notice that guy! I concede that he could pull it off temporarily, if his interaction with people were brief, but never hold down full time job in an office. You got me on the "IT'S A FICTIONAL COMIC BOOK STORY." get out of jail free card. And you could make the argument that Superman was broke, they tried to fix it, and failed miserably. You can't act like they were putting out consistently good quality Superman stories before New 52.
The CK disguise looks even worse in live action
I couldn't be more in opposition to that, the Clark Kent identity is literally the part of the Superman mythos that is genuinely more important and necessary than anything else. Clark's way of connecting and interacting with humanity sounds like a lazy convenience? His humanity is what makes him who he is and Clark came before Superman. To ignore and discard that is a bane in Superman comics, not a boon. I could answer the solar energy power source query but that's not relevant to this thread.
But that's the beauty of the disguise, it does draw attention to him but that attention makes it seem all the more implausible and inconceivable that a mild mannered country bumpkin like Clark could ever be the charismatic and authoritative Superman. I don't think as many people as you believe would deduce that Clark was Superman. All the things you believe cause problems just reaffirm the disguise to make Clark seem even less like Superman. And yeah I know I played the fictional story card too soon but at the end of the day, that's what we readers are dealing with. We have to suspend our disbelief even if our day and age might make the glasses and suit trick unconvincing. In regards to your next point, there were just as many stories which fixed Superman and made him modern without taking away his staple characteristics. Busiek's run, Kelly's run, Johns' run and more in the 25-26 year history of the Pre New 52 DCU have been good canon Superman stories without going into the Elseworlds. I have yet to see how the New 52 and current status quo has been an improvement for Superman.
The disguise looks worse in live action because Henry Cavill is a good looking guy and the design of his look and clothes doesn't even try to hide the difference between Clark and Superman. The comics do provide differences and contrast in how Clark and Superman look however.
The thing is, the Clark Kent disguise is actually pretty believable, just it may not seem so from an outsider perspective. I mean would you actually believe your friend or colleague that happens to look like a celebrity is the real deal?
@maccyd: It's not a matter of belief though, it's a matter of using your eyes and going holy hell that guy looks like Superman if Superman combed his hair differently and was wearing a suit and glasses!!
@maccyd: It's not a matter of belief though, it's a matter of using your eyes and going holy hell that guy looks like Superman if Superman combed his hair differently and was wearing a suit and glasses!!
As I said in my example, there's people who look extremely similar to celebrities, but people that know them don't actually suspect there's a chance they could be the real deal.
This is of course your opinion. You're only looking at one side of the coin. Has the changes have pushed some people away, it also pulled some people that before found both his backstory and status quo, the main reason to stay away.
Sure it is my opinion but you're just as firmly rooted on the other side of the coin where, to pull the analysis you do so later on, despite devoting 897 of your 989 posts on the Superman boards, it's hard to tell what you actually like about the character. You only seem to like his potential and what could be done with him in other circumstances. You don't seem to like who he is in his current context. You don't like Clark Kent's identity, him being a reporter, him having 3 major weaknesses, Lois Lane being his wife and other staples of Superman. So what exactly do you like about this character?
Also, last month's sales for Truth only saw a minor rise in sales and Superman/Wonder Woman even dropped in number. And considering that Action Comics has dropped from 100,000 to 30,000/40,000 sales a month, I believe your point about pulling people in is rather worthless when you consider all the available information. DC's founding character has simply not been selling well for some time, and that is because DC are constantly changing him at the moment.
Yes. Respecting his roots. The problem being each one definition of his roots.
Why are Superman's roots problematic to you?
Some people hated to see him has boyscout, other people liked that aspect about him. Some people liked him less powerful, others say he's not that powerful compared with other characters. That his weaknesses greatly diminish him has a character. That we should be able to do a lot more without the need to actually exit the basis of his powers.
The first one is an oversimplification on those people's part only relevant to Silver Age Superman. The second one just needs the kind of balance managed in the Pre Flashpoint and admittedly New 52 power levels. Obviously powerful and a heavy hitter but not totally undefeatable. But what do you mean by "the need to actually exit the basis of his powers?" That makes very little sense.
Others prefered the old depiction of Krypton, others want Krypton to be more explored, to actually show or hint why kryptonians are has they are. Others couldn't care less about Krypton, for all they care Krypton should only be mentioned and never talked about again.
You're dodging and avoiding the subject now, Krypton's various depictions have nothing in common to what we've just been disagreeing on.
Others still like the Truth, Justice and the American Way. Others (quite a lot especially those forums that are not american) that think that Truth, Justice and the American Way, is bunch of cr&p. And that it should be simplified Doing The Right Thing. That in a world of grays, with gray characters, Superman should shine above those and defend what's right.
I'm a non American Superman fan and I still want a Superman who stands for Truth and Justice. Though admittedly that is my stance on the matter too, that Superman should do the right thing. But that also means upholding humanity and society's positive values, such as truth and justice. Plus, said gray characters have made DC think that Superman needs to be made just as grey to compensate.
Strange statement seeing that besides the basis, of what makes Batman, Batman. A lot of things have changed. His dynamic towards certain characters like Jim Gordon, The Joker, Gotham itself has gone from periods of dark, to extreme dark, and dark again. In fact the only character that seems unchangable is Alfred. That man has been pretty much the same from the start.
But the whole Batman getting darker and more popular again came way before Superman suffered his current popularity and marketability crisis he seems to be undergoing currently. For a time in the early 2000s especially, it was Superman who starred in 4 solo comics of his own alongside Batman, it was his series that gave us crossovers such as Last Laugh and Our Worlds at War. DC did treat Superman as a valuable property in the late 90s and early 2000s but it's after that where Superman had problems whereas Batman went from strength to strength.
It's only a generalisation, if people identify themselves with it. If you're not afraid of change, if you want things to get better for the character then change is unavoidable. And you know it. There's no use me, you or anyone to bury our heads in the sand.
Oh please this is a flimsy and weak excuse at best. Just because a character goes through changes doesn't make them a better character for it. If you want to blindly buy into whatever DC are marketing Superman to be, that's your call. But I'd prefer to not buy something where the character is supposedly Superman in name only. Change can also be corrosive and eroding process in this industry that strips away things the fans love about the character. Just look at Spider-Man after One More Day, a significant portion of the Spider-Man fanbase haven't forgiven Marvel for ruining of comics' best marriages. I'm not afraid of change, I'm afraid of bad change. Good change can be a boon to a character but bad change can be a bane for the fandom and character.
And although I agree that the character needs stability, it can't be consistent. The only way that would work is if the same team worked on Superman permanently. And even then it wouldn't be a certain thing. I also read manga, and in manga the writer is always the same, and even then there's some moves and changes that get the fans shouting "WTF!"
But that's what Superman is lacking in greatly, stability. He needs consistency more than he needs to be shaken up right now. And I certainly don't want the current Superman team to be working on the character permanently, nor do I want Truth to stay the status quo for as long as it is. If that's what's needed to fix Superman, we need to wait a while longer.
Or at least there would've to be place specific rules that no team could break. DC would have to say "Our vision of Superman is this... And now you'll have to work around that vision." Do you see it happening? Because I don't.
No of course not because DC don't want to do that at the moment. They're run by short sighted and unsuitable executives who have taken away what the fans love about the DCU and tried to give them something new that has been received with mixed to lukewarm reactions at best. Rules and specifics are clearly not in DC's agenda right now, but honestly there need to be people who establish this vision. I'll leave you to explain why you don't see it happening but in my view, it's because DC aren't letting Superman be Superman.
Also that stability can't be an opposing force to evolution. A character needs to evolve. For example to me this Flare power was one of the DC greatest mistakes. Superman doesn't need new powers. He needed to increase his control over the powers he already had. If his powers are the store/processing/manipulation of solar energy, then let him explore that manipulation to it's full potential. And then, only then, maybe... Add more powers. But powers that are a consequence of his training and evolution and not simply something that simply appeared and now he needs to learn to control.
Oh I agree with you, the solar flare is a huge mistake to give Superman a new power. I wish I could blame Romita Jr but he only came up with the idea of giving Superman a new power. Johns was the one who developed it and fleshed it out so the blame lies with both of them. Especially in Superman's current status quo, he needs to learn how to control and use this powers effectively and resourcefully. Thing is, that was kind of shown in the Pre New 52 Superman, we saw him adapt his powers in different situations many times. This Superman has yet to control his powers so well. The solar flare has made Superman seem incompetent, unprofessional and needlessly risky when his other powers have more powerful effects than the solar flare does.
Yes and no. Batman when speaking of technology he speaks like you and me would speak of it, if we were familiarized with it. Superman when speaking of technology sometimes he's able to understand the most complex things and then fails with simpler stuff. Or to be more precise, Batman knowledge seems and sounds stable, while Superman knowledge is shaky at best.
Well that's probably because Superman's technological expertise comes from his experience with Kryptonian artefacts and the like. Plus he has learned 5 years of medical knowledge and processed supercomputer data so there is that real world application of his knowledge. In any case, this point is definitely one where you're splitting plenty of hairs, both are dealing with pseudo science stuff, just because Batman sounds like he knows what he's talking about doesn't mean he's smarter than Superman. Hell there have been times when Superman outshone Batman in the smarts department, you know which ones I'm referring to.
How about his futile, and ultimately hopeless relationship with Lois? He'd either outlived her or died at the hands of one his foes.
Futile? It's futile to fall in love just because you're immortal? That's a fallacy ridden complaint if ever I heard one. Just because he's going to outlive her doesn't mitigate how he feels about Lois Lane. He sees much of what he loves about humanity in Lois, her strength of will, her willingness to print the truth, to oppose those who do wrong by other people and that Lois does make him feel like a better person when they're together. I'm only paraphrasing here, there's evidently more to it than that. But to constrain yourself by the longevity gap between their respective ends is something I find to be a reductive perspective. And the fans of the romance or *shudder* shippers of that couple don't seem to find it a hopeless one.
And humans? How could he ever felt satisfied being around them? His parents aging, becoming more frail and weak, all of Lois near death calls. How can someone like him even stand being near people that will never know even in their wildest dreams what he feels, what's like to be him or like him?
Apologies for this, I've never done this with what you've said before but this time I did do this when I got to this sentence
First off, children tend to outlive their parents for the most part. It's a hard and difficult fact of life and certainly not one I'm looking forward to myself but everyone has to lose their parents at some point. That's not a specific dissatisfaction with being human. Second, how can you say that Superman shouldn't be able to stand being around people just because he's different? He may be born a Kryptonian but he's raised as a human being. He's grown up, been raised, taught, made friends, had crushes, left home and done all the things a human being does. He feels, thinks and acts in a way human beings do. And his humanity is what makes him as strong a hero he is. It's not his Kryptonian powers, science or parents that make him Superman, it's growing up on a farm in Kansas thanks to kindly parents and a strong moral fibre. He stands being near humans because he's seen what they're capable of and what they can achieve. He believes in the better part of our nature so that's why he 'tolerates' the measly humans even though he's different. Because he can help them and be an example for them because they were there for him.
Justice, Truth and the American Way. How could he look at Gotham for example, and still believe in that? Did he never left America? Because the world is pretty messed up without aliens and super-villains in it. Plain villains do a lot more damage.
You do realise that's why Superman is an interesting character? Writers, fans and even actual intellectuals can discuss how much Superman can and should actually do. Remember that story where Superman gets mind controlled by Dominus and believes he needs to take over the world and save the humans from himself? That's an example of Superman going too far. There has to be a balance in Superman's actions. He can't stop war and famine single handedly because that would involve imposing his will and influence far too much over humanity. Superman can still do plenty, he can't just do everything for obvious reasons. It baffles me why you haven't realised this when writing your particular hang up. And he believes in Gotham because there's a guy dressed up in a batsuit who'll never stop trying to clean the streets from vice and sin.
Him and Diana, are a natural match. The same way that if Koriandr (aka Starfire) wasn't exactly the opposite of Superman, I'd say that the two could also be a pair. Diana, might not be a kryptonian, but she's no stranger to power and responsability. You say they started a relationship because they were lonely, I say they got tired of trying in the wrong place, with the wrong people. Humans can never know what they know, and has such, they chose to enjoy the fact that each of them was what the other needed.
And now we come to you justifying why Superman being with Wonder Woman isn't such a bad thing. I have to say your reasoning is particularly vapid and vacuous, they were what the other needed? How simplistic and self centred is that? Far moreso than the outliving each other hang up. It's resulted in both characters benefiting negatively from DC's executive vision. Superman becomes an incompetent fighter for some reason and much more submissive whereas Wonder Woman turns into an aggressive and sometimes possessive partner. Them sharing power and responsibility doesn't make them suitable for a romance. It's been explored why a Superman/Wonder Woman romance would not work and why they fit together much better as close but platonic friends. No mainstream or Elseworld story has done a convincing job of making Wonder Woman and Superman seem like a genuine couple to me. There hasn't been a single story, page or panel where I've felt like these two could be a genuine couple.
If you were in a war, I'd like to see you ask questions first and punch later. Superman is at war, simple has that.
I'm not someone who particularly believes in war myself and I don't bow down to military authority well. Anyway, I find it especially troubling you believe Superman is at war. What he's doing is not a war, trying to make the world a better place is not a military conflict. He'll oppose those that seek to do others harm but he reasons and tries to understand them all the way, even if he has to fight them. Just because Superman fights a lot does not make his career a warzone, that's simply a wrong way of looking at what he does.
The world developed amnesia and forgot who saved their lives more times than they can count. And now that he's weaker, all that had a problem with him but were cowards to do something about it, now those are the machos.
Rather that the world just got manipulated into believing Superman to be something that he's not by the media and authority figures. And don't ignore how rough and aggressive Superman has been lately, his infamous new 'dudebro' personality as some call it has not pleased fans who didn't see him as a pure macho man.
Maybe if Supes broke a few necks or ripped some spines people would think twice about kicking a man when he's down.
Hopefully you're joking here because I do not fancy living in a world where Superman engages in torturous and lethal acts against supervillains. Not at all. Not as a last resort. Not on this plane of existence. You're saying you want Superman to be feared now? For the S to stand for "scared stiff of Superman?" If you want your heroes like this, Superman is the wrong character for the job.
I always hated bullies. I punched bullies from highschool to college, with no hesitation. And Supes is doing what he needs to do. Has you would if placed in a fight or flight situation. Talk only works when both parties want to talk.
I'm not fond of bullies either but an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind as a famous man once said. Your treatment of bullies is your own choice but Superman's evolved much further from the golden age vigilante he once was. I wouldn't try to assume what I would do in such a situation either, I wouldn't use violence as unhesitatingly as you seem to do. Superman is not a character who represents violence anymore, he always talks to his enemies first even when they're more interested in hurting him. That's what I prefer in my Superman, not someone who doesn't hesitate to punch someone. He's not supposed to throw the first punch.
And the secret identity. What about it? He's not Clark Kent, he's not even Superman. He's Kal-El of Krypton. That's the truth behind Truth. If he was so pleased being human, all he needed to do was banish from the map. And create a all new identity and start over fresh, somewhere far away. But at the first chance he put his t-shirt on and kept on fighting. And it's that determination, and how he's now able to see, really see, what people think of him, that's making Truth worth reading.
I am so tempted to use the wrong video here but I'll save that for when you say something even more absurd and asinine than this. He IS Clark Kent. He is Superman and he is Kal-El. They're all a part of who he is but if one has to come first, it is Clark Kent. The boy that was raised on Smallville to become the world's greatest superhero. Your view on this is most bemusing because out of all the identities, the one thing that this character is NOT is Kal-El of Krypton. He wasn't raised on Krypton, he was raised on Earth. That makes him more Clark Kent than Kal-El, something you surprisingly fail to recognise.
As for Truth, he's keeping up the fight because he CANNOT HIDE ANY MORE SINCE HIS SECRET IDENTITY WAS EXPOSED TO THE WORLD. Hopefully that reinforced the current predicament Superman is in. People know who he is, they know what he looks like And to create a new human identity would be disrespectful to the people that raised him and loved him. He wouldn't want to be anyone else other than Clark Kent, that is his identity.
Yeah. I can see them not reacting all too well if like you, they only remembered only what they wanted to remember. You don't take into account everything a person says or said. No! You bashout without thinking. Go back and read what I actually wrote and then talk.
Ah yes because I took a long, detailed and analytical approach to your own views and ideas, you decide to say I didn't pay attention. You have a short forum history compared to the other Superman posters, your posts are unique on here. I haven't got your vision of Superman wrong at all, if you don't like your previous ideas that I've spelled out for you, you're always welcome to change your mind. I hear that happens a lot regarding things people believe in. Nice try attempting to make my criticisms out to be reductive in nature but considering the detail I've put into these responses, they simply fall flat on their face. I have read what you've written and most of it is incredibly far fetched if I'm to be frank.
First of all when I have talked about psionics, I've always said that the mix of bio-energy and psionics would better explain how the powers of a kryptonian might work. You can cling to the solar battery nonsense all you want. Me. I prefer to think for myself.
Likewise, you can cling to your fantasies all you like but it doesn't change the fact that DC are not going to make your changes a reality. You can call your beliefs 'thinking for yourself' all you like and give yourself a back on the pat for making things up. Doesn't alter the fact that you're merely speculating and writing your own personal fan fiction and head canon. Which isn't accurate or particularly plausible. Also, you've mentioned explicitly that Superman should develop psionic powers at some point, that would make him a Martian Manhunter clone and DC already has one of those.
I never said no weakness. Get your facts straight! I said I would reduce Superman weaknesses to kryptonite only. And that psionic training would eventually. Eventually! Help him overcome that weakness, helping him not be so vulnerable to it. But seeing that kryptonite grows on trees and has and endless ability to create isotopes from, even if Superman was able to reduce his vulnerability to green-K, when dealing with red, blue, black, silver, gold, gem, and so on... He would again be vulnerable to kryptonite.
I was rushing when I wrote that part admittedly, I remember you saying you only wanted Superman to be vulnerable to Kryptonite, I didn't get my facts wrong there I'm afraid so that accusation is baseless. I just disagree with you that the potential for Superman stories is stronger if he's weak to red solar radiation, psionics and has no defense against magic. Again, reducing vulnerability to green K makes no sense, how can Superman reduce the pain of something that is radioactive to his being? The whole point of Kryptonite is that it has an uncontrollable effect on Superman, making him less vulnerable to it is pointless.
One could only hope to god he was more like Mr Majestic. That way I would've no complaints about his powers and intelligence.
Well go and read more Mr Majestic comics or ask for more to be published if you want. Majestic's a cool character but his morals and personality are still quite stiff and borderline on the overpowered range. I don't have a problem with Majestic's power level myself but if Superman suddenly did become more like Majestic, people would complain. I fail to see why Superman being more like Majestic would be honestly beneficial. You know, it sounds like you're more of a Majestic fan than you are a Superman fan with statements like this.
Batman... Please! If things weren't conveniently done in Batman favor, he'd be a dead man, a long time ago. And I'm not even refering to him being killed by Superman. Batman own rogue gallery is more than enough to have killed him a hundred times over.
I was just saying that your billionaire genius combat master idea for Superman is basically ripping off Batman's character. I don't mind Superman having combat training myself but I don't want a master martial artist powerhouse instead, I no longer like DBZ anymore.
Martian Manhunter. Great character, great potential, poorly used and writen. Nah. Supes already suffers enough, I don't want more negative stuff added to the already impressive negative baggage.
I also feel that way about Martian Manhunter but your idea for Superman would turn him into a Martian Manhunter clone. As it stands, it's a remarkable thing how you've devoted most of your posts to the Superman boards yet have so many problems with this character.
I couldn't be more in opposition to that, the Clark Kent identity is literally the part of the Superman mythos that is genuinely more important and necessary than anything else. Clark's way of connecting and interacting with humanity sounds like a lazy convenience? In which case, why are you reading about Superman? His humanity is what makes him who he is and Clark is key to that since it's who he was before Superman. I could answer the solar energy power source query but that's not relevant to this thread.
But that's the beauty of the disguise, it does draw attention to him but that attention makes it seem all the more implausible and inconceivable that a mild mannered country bumpkin like Clark could ever be the charismatic and authoritative Superman. I don't think as many people as you believe would deduce that Clark was Superman. All the things you believe cause problems just reaffirm the disguise to make Clark seem even less like Superman. And yeah I know I played the fictional story card too soon but at the end of the day, that's what we readers are dealing with. We have to suspend our disbelief even if our day and age might make the glasses and suit trick unconvincing. In regards to your next point, there were just as many stories which fixed Superman and made him modern without taking away his staple characteristics. Busiek's run, Kelly's run, Johns' run and more in the 25-26 year history of the Pre New 52 DCU have been good canon Superman stories without going into the Elseworlds. I have yet to see how the New 52 and current status quo has been an improvement for Superman.
The disguise looks worse in live action because Henry Cavill is a good looking guy and the design of his look and clothes doesn't even try to hide the difference between Clark and Superman. The comics do provide differences and contrast in how Clark and Superman look however.
Agree to disagree then. Sometimes it bothers me more than others like when the artist puts zero effort into the CK disguise or in Earth-One's case where the artist flat out cheats and draws Clark Kent and Superman as having two drastically different physiques. The point of a disguise for me is that you don't draw attention to yourself, any disguise that has people paying specific attention to you is a bad disguise, you want the eye to pass over you, not be drawn to you, they may not recognize him the first time but it wouldn't take long imo. It detracts from those around him when we are told to believe that a news room full of crack reporters can't deduce the obvious day after day. And the yellow/red sun nonsense was brought in solely for the purpose of explaining away why Kryptonians didn't have powers of Krypton. There is no even remotely feasible explanation for it other than "IT'S A FICTIONAL COMIC UNIVERSE". Which is why I feel like it's lazy story telling.
@azza04: Sometimes Clark's disguise works to hide himself in plain sight, other times it draws attention away from the idea of Clark being Superman. Writers are inconsistent but good ones can work with what they're given. Anyway I'll agree to disagree since it's clear we're not sharing a view here, or on that other thread. I suspect my other discussion is going to spawn a lengthy response anyway.
Clark tries hard to not get noticed the similarity between him and Supes. But despite that, they're basically the same person.
Yes, pretty much this. Superman indulges his powers and enjoys showing off, which he tries to avoid as Clark for social reasons (and because it's really too easy to impress people with his powers). He presents himself differently, but other than the legal separation of identity it's not that different from how people behave around their parents v. around their boyfriend.
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