So, the discussion in a recent battle thread lead to a long drawn out discussion, where a certain party is under the belief that All Star Superman is canon, and fits just fine into the mainstream DCU continuity (pre 52 around the time of DC one million).

So, what are the thoughts on this? Especially considering the differences between All Star Superman and the continuity in question, and the fact that All Star comics was supposed to be stories written out of continuity....

The thread in question if you want to read through numerous walls of words to see the argument being made: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/superman-prime-1-million-vs-silver-surfer-uni-power/661974/?page=8

@cattlebattle said:

Doesn't Superman die at the end??

He flies into the sun and it's left ambiguous as to if he'll ever return. Many think he's dead, but some (like Lois) still hold hope.

@Wyldsong: The story is out of canon, anyone telling you it's in canon is an idiot.

It's a great story, imo, but it's not canon.

@The_Tree: Yeah, I have yet to find anything that states it is canon. The idea of hypertime was even brought up in the discussion...even though Hypertime came after DC One Million and was discontinued by the DC overlords the year before the release of All Star Superman. And then the argument became that Morrison had an interview that basically stated the stories were connected like the defunct hypertime without using hypertime, so in effect we should just consider it canon. And then I won't even get into why they feel we shouldn't worry about the inconsistencies between All Star Superman and the main continuity in question if we don't take into account the hypertime deal...

@Farscape said:

Canon means zilch to Grant Morrisson. When he worked on Batman he did followups to silverage stories which DC in no uncertain terms considered canon and used elements which were also out of canon. His perspective was that it was all canon. The fact that he's a giant that sells means DC will let him run wild.

When writing All Star Superman DC considered it non canon, in fact the All Star imprint was made specificaly for stories set outside of the regular DC continuity. Grant however has said that he considers the version of Superman he's currently writing in Action Comics to be the young, brash version of Superman from All Star. To him it's all canon but I doubt DC will see it that way.

And this about what I get from it all. And he can see it as canon all he wants, but if the dc overlords don't agree, then it isn't canon.

Thanks for the thoughts=)

@PowerHerc said:

It's a great story, imo, but it's not canon.

In complete agreement here.

@cbishop said:

not canon. All-Star was like DC's Ultimate universe.

So far, everyone seems to be in agreement=)

@drgnx said:

It is about as cannon as "whatever happened to the man of tomorrow"

Again, in agreement here=)

It does not matter if Hypertime was not created yet or disavowed, Grant Morrison said the two (All Star Superman and DC One Million) are connected in a way that can be regarded as Hypertime. What is important here is that can see his intention, which was for the two stories to be intertwined. He even says he tried to create an overarching continuity. The two stories also match up perfectly, I would type this out but this blog seems to explain it pretty well: http://the-gold-in-us.blogspot.com/2008/11/connecting-all-star-superman-and-dc-one.html

@The Man of Yesteryear said:

It does not matter if Hypertime was not created yet or disavowed, Grant Morrison said the two (All Star Superman and DC One Million) are connected in a way that can be regarded as Hypertime. What is important here is that can see his intention, which was for the two stories to be intertwined. He even says he tried to create an overarching continuity. The two stories also match up perfectly, I would type this out but this blog seems to explain it pretty well: http://the-gold-in-us.blogspot.com/2008/11/connecting-all-star-superman-and-dc-one.html

I haven't read the entire article (and I will when I have more time), but early on it states he gave his books an overarching continuity. Now, just because the books have a continuity that fits within each other, doesn't make it canon. If Morrison said the books are connected in a way that can be regarded as hypertime, then sure those books may be connected in a way, but that does not equate to the book being canon in main DCU. What it seems to mean is that you could read All Star Superman et al, and have a continuity that fits between those books, but still have the main continuity stories he did fit into main continuity -- leaving All Star Superman as a noncanon piece drawing from canon elements.

So while All Star Superman is not canon, and doesn't fit into the canon DC universe, and Hypertime was disavowed -- meaning per the DCU overlords it cannot be canon, it doesn't mean that the story couldn't fit with his other works -- it just doesn't make it canon though.

And yes, it does matter if DCU said Hypertime was disavowed...they decide what is canon in mainstream DCU, not Morrison.

@Wyldsong: No it does not matter if it was disavowed, because the two are not truly connected through Hypertime. Morrison said they are connected in a way that could be regarded, or interpreted as Hypertime. Meaning that they are connected in a way that if Hypertime were still around, that would be the method...but it's not. So, they're still connected in a way very similar to Hypertime, yet not truly Hypertime.

Not even stories from last August are canon anymore. How the hell would All-Star be? Also, it was never canon. Just a really great story.

@The Man of Yesteryear said:

@Wyldsong: No it does not matter if it was disavowed, because the two are not truly connected through Hypertime. Morrison said they are connected in a way that could be regarded, or interpreted as Hypertime. Meaning that they are connected in a way that if Hypertime were still around, that would be the method...but it's not. So, they're still connected in a way very similar to Hypertime, yet not truly Hypertime.

Again, you aren't reading what I have written. Those stories are written in a way as to be connected, with an overarching continuity. But regardless of that, Morrison does not decide what is and isn't canon to the DCU in the end. Everyone here but you seems to know the All Star Imprint was written to be out of continuity to mainstream DC, and most seem to understand the stories can be interconnected without it being a canon story -- much like What If, etc. Without Hypertime then, there is no official way it can be canon.

A writer stating the stories are connected in way similar to hypertime yet not truly being hypertime means it is obviously something with differences from hypertime -- so guess what? It is not officially hypertime and doesn't function in the exact same manner, and again -- IS NOT AN OFFICIAL WORD FROM DCU STATING ALL STAR SUPERMAN CAN BE CONSIDERED CANON. It is another way of saying the stories have an overarching continuity between them, but not one connected by the canon of mainstream DCU.

So, unless you can get official word that it is canon, a writers colorful way of stating the stories have roots in one another is not proof.

@Wyldsong: Again, The two are connected through something that while not Hypertime, still functions nearly the same.

What's funny is I have provided the more "official" evidence (Grant Morrison's own words on his own creation) which you seem so fond of, that shows it is indeed canon. You have provided nothing stating otherwise besides links to some wikis and reviewers who are not by any means "official."

But go on, continue to appeal to popularity as your argument, because I have provided more evidence supporting my point than anyone here has supporting theirs.

@drgnx: So are you in agreement that while it is possible that neither may be in continuity with the current or former (main) timestream, All Star Superman can be/is canon to DC One Million? Because this has been what I've been trying to say.

Also, you say that Flash changed the future so it is impossible for it to happen. What is stopping any further changes from happening which could end up matching and leading up to All Star Superman?

@The Man of Yesteryear: How about instead of having you tell me what Morrison said and not showing it, I just provide you with something Morrison actually said --

"The fact that it could be a non–continuity recreation made the idea even more attractive and more achievable. I also felt ready for it, in a way I don’t think I would have been in 1999; I finally felt “grown–up” enough to do Superman justice." And even: "I didn’t have to worry about upsetting continuity or annoying people who care about stuff like that."

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/100821-All-Star-Morrison-01.html

You have anything else, because it seems this case is closed. So, what I have been saying all along is true...he did create a non-continuity story using canon roots.

@The Man of Yesteryear: Hopefully the above is proof enough to end this debate?

@Wyldsong: No because continuity and canon are not the same. Canon is what is deemed official to the story, and continuity is the consistency of it. For example, you've said DC One Million is canon, but it clearly is not consistent with the timeline. Hypertime, or something similar, connects different continuities which in turn makes aspects of both official.

@The Man of Yesteryear: It is not canon, get over it. Continuity is a set of contiguous events, of things being set in the same universe. Canon is conceptual material accepted as "official", what is real, or what really happened. If it is not canon, it is not in the same continuity, and is therefore...not official. The two go hand in hand. He wrote a non-continuity story, outside of the contiguous events of the mainstream universe.

And I found one article of Morrison talking about hypertime: http://zone.aintitcool.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t;=12135

What does he say when asked if the All-Star line itself a seperate part of Hypertime?

"It could be regarded as that if you like."

He doesn't start with that it is, or it most definitely is, but that the interviewer could regard it as such if they liked. He doesn't state that it is like hypertime, but not hypertime. He goes on to state that All-Star is a Hypertime Line which went underground and is coming back...and guess what? Hypertime was diasvowed as a concept in 2005, and was not oficially in existence. Why would DC officially disavow something and then officially allow the same thing but not call it that? Do you have proof that DC officially backs the statement that it is hypertime, but not hypertime? Do you have proof that Morrison can override the DCU overlords on what is canon and not canon? Can you give me anything official from DCU on this subject at all?

So, I have provided far, far more evidence than you have. Yet we still only have your words. So until you can prove any of the above points, you have no argument. You have no evidence. You have nothing but the words of a writer who gave a flowery response into story connections, and have yet to even provide a source for those very words. I on the other hand have given you his true blue words admitting it is not continuity, and telling an interviewer that they can regard it as something if they liked, and calling it something that was no longer in use. Hardly proof positive, and damn sure not the official word from DC.

Until then we are done with serious discussion until you can provide something official, and something of worth.

@The Man of Yesteryear: Really, until you can stop arguing semantics, and bring something proof positive beyond theories about the defunct hypertime, then you don't have an argument. Just theories and hopes.

@Wyldsong: He doesn't have to worry about upsetting current continuity because it is a future story and there are an infinite number of things that could happen between now and then. This only means that it does not have to appear to be continuous with the main, current DCU. It does not mean All Star Superman is not canon to the DC One Million Universe because the two fit together perfectly.

Again, it doesn't matter if Hypertime was disavowed for reasons mentioned in above posts. I don't see what is so hard about this. He didn't call it Hypertime, he said it can be regarded as such if that is helps you understand it, because the two (All Star Superman and DC One Million) are connected in an overarching continuity through something very similar.

The events in All Star Superman and DC One Million are connected, and they could be a possible future to the current DC universe.

@Wyldsong said:

@The Man of Yesteryear: Really, until you can stop arguing semantics, and bring something proof positive beyond theories about the defunct hypertime, then you don't have an argument. Just theories and hopes.

Theories can never be fully proved, only disproved. Name one reason why DC One Million and All Star Superman cannot be connected.

@The Man of Yesteryear: Oh yes, he quite plainly calls it a hypertime line. Not something "like hypertime but isn't" as you claimed. Read it again if you don't believe me. Now, that proof I was asking for? I am tired of your theories.

@Wyldsong: Regard - Consider or think of (someone or something) in a specified way

You can think of it has Hypertime, but it does not mean it actually is Hypertime.

Link fixed: http://zone.aintitcool.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t;=12135 And I never said the stories aren't connected. All Star clearly has its roots in DC One Million and was written with an overarching continuity. Still not canon. Now that proof of your position? **dang it, keep trying to fix that link...that semi colon should not be after the t but keeps showing up -- stupid archaic computer I am on today**

Regard -- not a statement of fact or an official word on the subject. Add in the word "could"and it gets even better. Stop trying to play the semantics game. Proof, not theories.

@Wyldsong said:

Regard -- not a statement of fact or an official word on the subject. And in the word "could", and it gets even better. Stop the semantics game.

Grant Morrison says they are connected through an overarching continuity.

Grant Morrison says you can regard, or think of, this connection as Hypertime.

@Wyldsong: I have supported my theories through connections between both stories and Grant Morrison's words on his creations. Seems like proof to me. What's your definition of proof?

Grant Morrison does not dictate what is and isn't canon in the end, and used a flowery statement to say the stories have roots in one another and called it a hypertime line when hypertime was stated to be defunct. See, I can repeat myself as well. Now, what was that again...oh yeah...proof, not theories.

@Wyldsong: He did not call it a Hypertime line. I think we already went over this.

He did, he said it right in the link I gave. Here it is, verbatim: "All-Star is a Hypertime Line which went underground for 20 years and is now coming back into the light." So yeah, we did go over this. Funny how that works. He told somebody they "could" regard it as something, and goes on to boldly state that it is.

@Wyldsong: ...no u

@Wyldsong: Just kidding. So while Hypertime may be disavowed, I still think the intentions of Grant Morrison are clear that he meant for the two to be linked.

Alright, I deleted my last statement after your last. Give me a sec here.

Ok I'll delete mine too....

Perhaps it is more meaningful if you read the story all the way from beginning to end, but I picked up a couple issues of All Star, and I was not impressed. It just seemed like a seventies version of Superman to me.

These are my thoughts, yes the stories are connected. Much like mainstream DCU and One Million are connected, but without official hypertime, there are no grounds for calling it canon. He meant for All Star to be linked, I agree, hence why he used so much that was in DC One Million but due to the reality of there being no Hypertime, it just isn't canon. I know he wanted that overarching continuity between those tales, and I think that is awesome and brilliant. It is a great work, but there is just nothing to support a canon tale. Just a non-canon tale with deep roots, which I state again, is a brilliant piece of work. And I think we both agree on at least that. It's just that intentions don't equate into making things canon.

Lol=P Anyhow, I think if Morrison had his way, Hypertime would not have left. He really seemed to dig the idea in any interview I have ever read.

I have nothing new to add here. The issue seems to be pretty well covered/discussed.

I only want to say that if I had it my way, Morrison's Superman would be the new cannon. You would have to read the new 52 Action as the beginning of his career; JLA/DC One Million as the bulk of his life; Final Crisis:Superman Beyond 3-D as the major block buster; and All-Star Superman as his end with the end of DC One Million being the final word.