A Superman Dream

#1 Edited by redwingx (756 posts) - - Show Bio

I have long dreamed of a Superman whos more grounded, more real, more complex.. I though that dream would come true when i first heard that DC was planning to reboot everything. First of all i just wanna say that I love Superman, hes my favourite comic book character. My dream didn't come true, not even close and yes I have read all the current Superman comics and they all suck. DC failed the greatest hero aka Superman. Hes still the same Superman, he works at Daily Planet or Daily Network w/e it's called now and still is chasing Lois. Also hes still overpowered, in Action Comic he jumped to space, that's just bs. I'm not a writer or anything but i can write better stories than the crappy stories that are being told in the Superman Comics today. All DC really changed was Superman's suit and nothing more. Superman deserves so much more. HE needs major works.

#2 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33029 posts) - - Show Bio
@redwingx: Ok do it then, writer a better story. I'll be waiting. 
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#3 Posted by Duke_Nasty (1017 posts) - - Show Bio

It doesn't sound like you like Superman that much if you want everything about him changed.

"I'm not a writer or anything but i can write a better story than the crappy stories that are being told in the Superman Comics today."

You should try writing a fan-fic.

#4 Edited by redwingx (756 posts) - - Show Bio

@Duke_Nasty said:

It doesn't sound like you like Superman that much if you want everything about him changed.

"I'm not a writer or anything but i can write a better story than the crappy stories that are being told in the Superman Comics today."

You should try writing a fan-fic.

I dont want everything about him to change. Just nerf his powers and change his world, that's all I'm asking.

#5 Posted by DarkKnight96000 (730 posts) - - Show Bio

@redwingx: If you nerf his powers then he's not Superman.

#6 Posted by moywar700 (2775 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkKnight96000 said:

@redwingx: If you nerf his powers then he's not Superman.

I disagree

new 52 superman is weaker than pre-flashpoint.He's still superman.

#7 Edited by moywar700 (2775 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman's stuck in a rut, it may take some time to get out of that. I hereby pass the torch to superman from wonder woman.The torch signifies the constant years of mistreatment to the character.

#8 Posted by cloudzackvincent (1028 posts) - - Show Bio

i personally like action comics and i m really getting tired of "superman is overpowered" statement... in the new 52 i have not seen him walkover anyone yet... he was hard pressed against everyone except nimrod. And if Superman is overpowered then what about Martian Manhunter, Shazam, Apollo, Thor, Silver Surfer.... the list goes on

#9 Posted by DarkKnight96000 (730 posts) - - Show Bio

@moywar700 said:

@DarkKnight96000 said:

@redwingx: If you nerf his powers then he's not Superman.

I disagree

new 52 superman is weaker than pre-flashpoint.He's still superman.

It won't last eventually he'll be back where he should be.

#10 Posted by redwingx (756 posts) - - Show Bio

@cloudzackvincent said:

i personally like action comics and i m really getting tired of "superman is overpowered" statement... in the new 52 i have not seen him walkover anyone yet... he was hard pressed against everyone except nimrod. And if Superman is overpowered then what about Martian Manhunter, Shazam, Apollo, Thor, Silver Surfer.... the list goes on

Superman jumped to space in Action comics, If that's not being overpowered i dont know what it is. @DarkKnight96000 said:

@redwingx: If you nerf his powers then he's not Superman.

I disagree. He is Superman even if he cant jump to the freaking space. His powers needs to get nerfed in order for his great personality to shine.

#11 Posted by Phaedrusgr (1672 posts) - - Show Bio

I like Superman being overpowered, as I like Batman being the incredible Homo Universalis + I can do anything -man. Exaggeration is part of their character and to be honest, super hero comics=exaggeration. I'll agree with you though on one thing. His stories aren't that great (neither pre-flash point nor New52). Nevertheless, he'll always be in my heart.

#12 Edited by OutlawRenegade (1251 posts) - - Show Bio

@redwingx said:

@cloudzackvincent said:

i personally like action comics and i m really getting tired of "superman is overpowered" statement... in the new 52 i have not seen him walkover anyone yet... he was hard pressed against everyone except nimrod. And if Superman is overpowered then what about Martian Manhunter, Shazam, Apollo, Thor, Silver Surfer.... the list goes on

Superman jumped to space in Action comics, If that's not being overpowered i dont know what it is. @DarkKnight96000 said:

@redwingx: If you nerf his powers then he's not Superman.

I disagree. He is Superman even if he cant jump to the freaking space. His powers needs to get nerfed in order for his great personality to shine.

I agree with this. I thought he was just right in the DCAU Justice League, Justice League: Unlimited, and Superman: The Animated Series. I think that his powers should be limited to Super Strength, Flight, LASER Vision, X-Ray Vision, Super Durability, and a Healing Factor. His super speed should only be used in flight to differentiate him from Flash, and he should not be as fast as the Flash. His stats should be where Thor's are currently.

He doesn't need to jump into space or have super have super memorization or soul vision or super breath or super hearing. He doesn't need Superman robots. And his powers shouldn't be the only things he relies on. He's got investigative skills that I wish played a bigger role. And he has a lot of access to alien information from Krypton.

I wouldn't mind him being called in more by the military to handle Alien conspiracies and Pseudo-Science disasters.

And it would help if he had COMPELLING, TRAGIC, SYMPATHETIC, VILLAINS. The problem with his current rogues is not their power level. It's that there's no reason to care about them, like them, or fear them (with a few exceptions).

#13 Edited by YoggSaron (812 posts) - - Show Bio

What I am getting out of this, is that you want Superman to be roughly equivalent to his Golden Age counterpart, the rough and tough, proactive guardian of the innocent, whose powers merely extend to barely being above street level. At the same time, you claim to be a fan of Superman and yet you remain unimpressed with his stories post-crisis and beyond. I have to wonder how you even became a Superman fan in the first place, seeing as how Superman hasn't been like his Golden Age self in over five decades, and it sounds like you want a character that is, at least on the outside, radically different than that which has been around for the last twenty-five to thirty years. You want his setting to change, you want his supporting cast to be altered,and you want his relationship with Lois to be abolished, even though these are the ideas that Superman has been running with for a long time.

Starting with his powers, which is a topic that irks me to no end, especially when dealing with the idea of depowerment, when will people learn that reducing Superman's powers - or any other character's for that matter- solves absolutely nothing. According to you, "his powers needs to get nerfed in order for his great personality to shine," and my response to that is-Why? How do Superman's powers interfere with great characterization? He is still the champion of good, the man who does whatever it takes for righteousness to shine through, even at the cost of himself. He is still that character regardless if he is moving planets or simply tossing cars. Street level powers are not required to have a grounded or "real" story and you are only limiting the stories you can tell with the character if you try to keep him grounded.

Superman as a character, at least since the Silver Age, has had Earth-bound adventures, journeys throughout the vastness of space, and even dug into the mystical every once in a while. He is malleable, able to fit into practically any scenario you can imagine because of his cosmic level powers. If you think that even jumping into space is ludicrous for him, then obviously Superman is not the character for you, as he is always going to be this way, and for good reason. If you want a character that is permanently stuck in the alleged "real world" then I suggest you find a different one.

@OutlawRenegade said:

LASER Vision

And the difference between that and heat vision would be? Heat vision is the projection of infrared EM radiation with some red of the visible light spectrum thrown in. It's function is virtually the same as a laser.

His super speed should only be used in flight to differentiate him from Flash, and he should not be as fast as the Flash. His stats should be where Thor's are currently.

He doesn't need to jump into space or have super have super memorization or soul vision or super breath or super hearing. He doesn't need Superman robots. And his powers shouldn't be the only things he relies on. He's got investigative skills that I wish played a bigger role. And he has a lot of access to alien information from Krypton.

So essentially you want writers to be able to get lazy and uncreative with the character's arsenal of abilities. That won't lead to good stories, only, well, lazy ones. If the writer can't write an engaging story with a powerful Superman, chances are they can't write one with a needlessly weak Superman.

#14 Posted by OutlawRenegade (1251 posts) - - Show Bio

@YoggSaron said:

@OutlawRenegade said:

LASER Vision

And the difference between that and heat vision would be? Heat vision is the projection of infrared EM radiation with some red of the visible light spectrum thrown in. It's function is virtually the same as a laser.

His super speed should only be used in flight to differentiate him from Flash, and he should not be as fast as the Flash. His stats should be where Thor's are currently.

He doesn't need to jump into space or have super have super memorization or soul vision or super breath or super hearing. He doesn't need Superman robots. And his powers shouldn't be the only things he relies on. He's got investigative skills that I wish played a bigger role. And he has a lot of access to alien information from Krypton.

So essentially you want writers to be able to get lazy and uncreative with the character's arsenal of abilities. That won't lead to good stories, only, well, lazy ones. If the writer can't write an engaging story with a powerful Superman, chances are they can't write one with a needlessly weak Superman.

By limiting his powers, they won't use Superman's powers as a crutch. He won't just get new powers as a deus ex machina. And he'll have believable, challenging fights. And to make him and his characters more interesting, you'll have to work on their backgrounds, personalities, worlds, and mythology.

Laser vision is better because shaving with laser vision makes more sense than shaving with heat vision, because it's more interesting to look at on film, because his villains will be able to see it and react to it, and because laser vision sounds cooler than heat vision. Smallville ruined heat/microwave vision for me.

#15 Posted by 4thhorseman (72 posts) - - Show Bio

Maybe I'm the only one who has usually found the stories with a depowered Superman far worse than the regular powered ones...

#16 Posted by cloudzackvincent (1028 posts) - - Show Bio

@OutlawRenegade said:

@YoggSaron said:

@OutlawRenegade said:

LASER Vision

And the difference between that and heat vision would be? Heat vision is the projection of infrared EM radiation with some red of the visible light spectrum thrown in. It's function is virtually the same as a laser.

His super speed should only be used in flight to differentiate him from Flash, and he should not be as fast as the Flash. His stats should be where Thor's are currently.

He doesn't need to jump into space or have super have super memorization or soul vision or super breath or super hearing. He doesn't need Superman robots. And his powers shouldn't be the only things he relies on. He's got investigative skills that I wish played a bigger role. And he has a lot of access to alien information from Krypton.

So essentially you want writers to be able to get lazy and uncreative with the character's arsenal of abilities. That won't lead to good stories, only, well, lazy ones. If the writer can't write an engaging story with a powerful Superman, chances are they can't write one with a needlessly weak Superman.

By limiting his powers, they won't use Superman's powers as a crutch. He won't just get new powers as a deus ex machina. And he'll have believable, challenging fights. And to make him and his characters more interesting, you'll have to work on their backgrounds, personalities, worlds, and mythology.

Laser vision is better because shaving with laser vision makes more sense than shaving with heat vision, because it's more interesting to look at on film, because his villains will be able to see it and react to it, and because laser vision sounds cooler than heat vision. Smallville ruined heat/microwave vision for me.

when was the last time he did that??

#17 Posted by OutlawRenegade (1251 posts) - - Show Bio

@cloudzackvincent: Action Comics #12, which came out today (8/1/12). Superman suddenly has the ability to perform super surgery after super reading at super speed. DUMB IMO. Deus Ex Abilities right there.

#18 Posted by 4thhorseman (72 posts) - - Show Bio

@OutlawRenegade: I didn't know reading comprehension was a deus ex ability...

#19 Posted by Loki9876 (3004 posts) - - Show Bio

I heard Action comics was good.

#20 Edited by OutlawRenegade (1251 posts) - - Show Bio

@4thhorseman said:

@OutlawRenegade: I didn't know reading comprehension was a deus ex ability...

Don't try to play that. You know exactly what I mean. There's a difference between reading comprehension and memorizing every medical text ever written in five minutes... then performing surgery perfectly with no practice or experience.

Even if he did read all those books and comprehend them, it doesn't mean that he should have retained all the information. Plus reading something has nothing to do with performing something. Get a 14 year old or 15 yea old with zero driving experience to play a game or read a book about driving. Then give them the keys to your car and see how well that goes.

Yes, what happened is AC #12 was a deus ex ability/PIS moment that reminds me of all the other ridiculous skills and abilities Superman has gotten over the years. It would have been more interesting to see how the story played out without that moment. It would have been more compelling to see Superman's emotional journey.

But instead of that, we got a McGuffin. No wonder people say he's too over the top. It has nothing to do with him being a noble guy. It's that he has no real limits unless the plot calls for it. Even when he's given limits, people just take them away. It's dumb. He can be ultra powerful without being ridiculous. Look at his animated version or look at Thor...

IMHO, the limits put on Superman in the cartoons made him more interesting.

#21 Posted by 4thhorseman (72 posts) - - Show Bio

@OutlawRenegade said:

@4thhorseman said:

@OutlawRenegade: I didn't know reading comprehension was a deus ex ability...

Don't try to play that. You know exactly what I mean. There's a difference between reading comprehension and memorizing every medical text ever written in five minutes... then performing surgery perfectly with no practice or experience.

Even if he did read all those books and comprehend them, it doesn't mean that he should have retained all the information. Plus reading something has nothing to do with performing something. Get a 14 year old or 15 yea old with zero driving experience to play a game or read a book about driving. Then give them the keys to your car and see how well that goes.

Since I haven't read it, I could possibly be wrong. But I'm guessing that he does this at the moment? Not something he did 5 years ago and still remembers? If that's the case, how is that any different then people cramming before a test or quiz? They retain the information for a small length of time and forget 30 minutes or so later. It's not that crazy and happens all the time to normal people.

And you're right about experience, though I don't think the driving example is the best. Many people who play video games or reading the license book then get the keys to a car and drive. Doesn't mean they all end up in horrific accidents the first time, myself included. The decisions made and everything aren't the best, but you make it through and not everyone drives like a pissed off man stuck in traffic who just learns his wife went into labor.

#22 Posted by Lvenger (19303 posts) - - Show Bio

More whining. I'm fine with how Superman is at the moment. Action Comics is a brilliant read but Superman needs some improvement. As long as good writers keep up the good stories and actually write Superman well, balancing his great personality with epic adventures, then I'll be happy.

#23 Posted by YoggSaron (812 posts) - - Show Bio

@OutlawRenegade said:

@YoggSaron said:

@OutlawRenegade said:

LASER Vision

And the difference between that and heat vision would be? Heat vision is the projection of infrared EM radiation with some red of the visible light spectrum thrown in. It's function is virtually the same as a laser.

His super speed should only be used in flight to differentiate him from Flash, and he should not be as fast as the Flash. His stats should be where Thor's are currently.

He doesn't need to jump into space or have super have super memorization or soul vision or super breath or super hearing. He doesn't need Superman robots. And his powers shouldn't be the only things he relies on. He's got investigative skills that I wish played a bigger role. And he has a lot of access to alien information from Krypton.

So essentially you want writers to be able to get lazy and uncreative with the character's arsenal of abilities. That won't lead to good stories, only, well, lazy ones. If the writer can't write an engaging story with a powerful Superman, chances are they can't write one with a needlessly weak Superman.

By limiting his powers, they won't use Superman's powers as a crutch. He won't just get new powers as a deus ex machina. And he'll have believable, challenging fights. And to make him and his characters more interesting, you'll have to work on their backgrounds, personalities, worlds, and mythology.

Laser vision is better because shaving with laser vision makes more sense than shaving with heat vision, because it's more interesting to look at on film, because his villains will be able to see it and react to it, and because laser vision sounds cooler than heat vision. Smallville ruined heat/microwave vision for me.

If he has superhuman speed, the ability to perform actions at super speeds is hardly deus ex machina. If Superman suddenly remembered that he had telekinesis in the middle of the story, that would be deus ex machina. Much like how Thor would pull a new power out of his rear end back in his early stories and then have that power magically disappear for years, only to be used again when convenient. I'm not talking about having him gain random abilities, I'm talking about using all his abilities to their fullest potential when writing the story.

The whole point of my post was that depowering a character to fit their story is not utilizing their full potential as a writer. If it is, then they are not fit to write Superman in the first place. I want the writers of these books to actually use their brains by taking the abilities their character has and writing a story based around. Making Superman a simpleton so he can be fooled by the simplistic plan of a villain is lazy; Superman using his intelligence to analyze a situation and attempting to solve the problem at super speed only to have the villain's own abilities and or preparation counter him is not lazy. If the writer wants to have a believable fight, then establish the villain as a thorn in Superman's side. The Man of Steel is far from the most powerful character their is, so creating villains with methods of overcoming him is not impossible.

I will admit that Superman is not an easy character to write for, but that doesn't mean that the writers should stop trying. I would much rather have the occasional brilliant Superman story, than mediocre stories through and through.

And I'm still not seeing what the connection between power levels and characterization and world building is. There only is one if the writer wants to explore how Superman feels about his powers, but otherwise, it doesn't matter if he's breaking celestial bodies or barely bench pressing a truck.

#24 Posted by Lvenger (19303 posts) - - Show Bio

@YoggSaron said:

@OutlawRenegade said:

@YoggSaron said:

@OutlawRenegade said:

LASER Vision

And the difference between that and heat vision would be? Heat vision is the projection of infrared EM radiation with some red of the visible light spectrum thrown in. It's function is virtually the same as a laser.

His super speed should only be used in flight to differentiate him from Flash, and he should not be as fast as the Flash. His stats should be where Thor's are currently.

He doesn't need to jump into space or have super have super memorization or soul vision or super breath or super hearing. He doesn't need Superman robots. And his powers shouldn't be the only things he relies on. He's got investigative skills that I wish played a bigger role. And he has a lot of access to alien information from Krypton.

So essentially you want writers to be able to get lazy and uncreative with the character's arsenal of abilities. That won't lead to good stories, only, well, lazy ones. If the writer can't write an engaging story with a powerful Superman, chances are they can't write one with a needlessly weak Superman.

By limiting his powers, they won't use Superman's powers as a crutch. He won't just get new powers as a deus ex machina. And he'll have believable, challenging fights. And to make him and his characters more interesting, you'll have to work on their backgrounds, personalities, worlds, and mythology.

Laser vision is better because shaving with laser vision makes more sense than shaving with heat vision, because it's more interesting to look at on film, because his villains will be able to see it and react to it, and because laser vision sounds cooler than heat vision. Smallville ruined heat/microwave vision for me.

If he has superhuman speed, the ability to perform actions at super speeds is hardly deus ex machina. If Superman suddenly remembered that he had telekinesis in the middle of the story, that would be deus ex machina. Much like how Thor would pull a new power out of his rear end back in his early stories and then have that power magically disappear for years, only to be used again when convenient. I'm not talking about having him gain random abilities, I'm talking about using all his abilities to their fullest potential when writing the story.

The whole point of my post was that depowering a character to fit their story is not utilizing their full potential as a writer. If it is, then they are not fit to write Superman in the first place. I want the writers of these books to actually use their brains by taking the abilities their character has and writing a story based around. Making Superman a simpleton so he can be fooled by the simplistic plan of a villain is lazy; Superman using his intelligence to analyze a situation and attempting to solve the problem at super speed only to have the villain's own abilities and or preparation counter him is not lazy. If the writer wants to have a believable fight, then establish the villain as a thorn in Superman's side. The Man of Steel is far from the most powerful character their is, so creating villains with methods of overcoming him is not impossible.

I will admit that Superman is not an easy character to write for, but that doesn't mean that the writers should stop trying. I would much rather have the occasional brilliant Superman story, than mediocre stories through and through.

And I'm still not seeing what the connection between power levels and characterization and world building is. There only is one if the writer wants to explore how Superman feels about his powers, but otherwise, it doesn't matter if he's breaking celestial bodies or barely bench pressing a truck.

QFT. Well said.

#25 Posted by Z3RO180 (6458 posts) - - Show Bio

@redwingx: Superman is not overpowerd and the DCNU stuff is really good.

#26 Edited by redwingx (756 posts) - - Show Bio

@OutlawRenegade said:

@4thhorseman said:

@OutlawRenegade: I didn't know reading comprehension was a deus ex ability...

Don't try to play that. You know exactly what I mean. There's a difference between reading comprehension and memorizing every medical text ever written in five minutes... then performing surgery perfectly with no practice or experience.

Even if he did read all those books and comprehend them, it doesn't mean that he should have retained all the information. Plus reading something has nothing to do with performing something. Get a 14 year old or 15 yea old with zero driving experience to play a game or read a book about driving. Then give them the keys to your car and see how well that goes.

Yes, what happened is AC #12 was a deus ex ability/PIS moment that reminds me of all the other ridiculous skills and abilities Superman has gotten over the years. It would have been more interesting to see how the story played out without that moment. It would have been more compelling to see Superman's emotional journey.

But instead of that, we got a McGuffin. No wonder people say he's too over the top. It has nothing to do with him being a noble guy. It's that he has no real limits unless the plot calls for it. Even when he's given limits, people just take them away. It's dumb. He can be ultra powerful without being ridiculous. Look at his animated version or look at Thor...

IMHO, the limits put on Superman in the cartoons made him more interesting.

I totally agree. @YoggSaron said:

What I am getting out of this, is that you want Superman to be roughly equivalent to his Golden Age counterpart, the rough and tough, proactive guardian of the innocent, whose powers merely extend to barely being above street level. At the same time, you claim to be a fan of Superman and yet you remain unimpressed with his stories post-crisis and beyond. I have to wonder how you even became a Superman fan in the first place, seeing as how Superman hasn't been like his Golden Age self in over five decades, and it sounds like you want a character that is, at least on the outside, radically different than that which has been around for the last twenty-five to thirty years. You want his setting to change, you want his supporting cast to be altered,and you want his relationship with Lois to be abolished, even though these are the ideas that Superman has been running with for a long time.

I'm unimpressed with the CURRENT stories. I never said anything about the stories beyond that. I dont want his cast to be altered (Maybe Jimmy), i want fresh new supporting casts who can bring other sides of Superman. Like in the new Batman comic, i want enemies who can attack and damage Superman mentally, mock his way of living and his justice. Spice the stories up, push Superman to the limit. And heres the problem and the question, how can you push a guy who can jump to the freaking space?

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